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Ireland Squad Discussion

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Post by Notch Sat 27 Feb 2016, 9:56 pm

First topic message reminder :

Continuing on from Ireland Squad Announcement Thread.
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Post by profitius Sat 09 Apr 2016, 5:29 pm

Connacht stars at disadvantage in fight for Ireland call - McKeon

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/connacht-rugby/connacht-stars-at-disadvantage-in-fight-for-ireland-call-mckeon-34612568.html


Fair play to him for saying it. The players in Connacht would have watched Jordi Murphy start a world cup 1/4 final and must be baffled.
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Post by eirebilly Sat 09 Apr 2016, 5:54 pm

In a way I kind of agree with him but I don't think its purely Connacht players that have been overlooked, Ulster have a lot of talent that has not been shown faith in by Schmidt.

I think that it is fair to say that Schmidt does favour the Leinster players as he knows them very well but I also feel that he may not be open enough to look at other options. He does go to many pro-12 games but I guess he is not seeing the things he likes in some players that are performing to a high level.
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Post by Notch Sat 09 Apr 2016, 6:10 pm

The problem is the Pro12 is not a good enough level of rugby to indicate a player has what it takes to make the step up. Its so far below test standard... Still guys like Dillane and Henshaw have been recognised.

It's important that Connacht players perform well when they get into the European Cup next year.
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Post by eirebilly Sat 09 Apr 2016, 6:25 pm

So what is a good enough level to indicate whether a player is good enough to make the step up, European games? I feel that there are players who are a step above the rest at pro-12 to show me they are more than capable to play International rugby. Some players, Marshall for instance, show more than enough at pro-12 and European level to be very comfortable at International level.

Marshall showed this and was only used due to injuries, I have no idea why that is.
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Post by Notch Sat 09 Apr 2016, 6:29 pm

There's no hard and fast rule, and there's no certainty until you try someone. It's just that you can get away with big weaknesses in a lot of pretty low-quality games. The playoffs will be a great chance for Connacht players to catch the eye.

I agree that Marshall is excellent, but I don't see that Schmidt would disagree given he was picking him to understudy D'Arcy when he wasn't playing as well as he is now. You'd have to say that its a case of a combination (Henshaw/Payne) being picked as opposed to looking at individuals.
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Post by eirebilly Sat 09 Apr 2016, 6:34 pm

I am actually really interested to see how Marmion plays tonight against Grenoble. I think that he a lot closer to ousting Murray as Ireland's best 9 than many may think.
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Post by Notch Sat 09 Apr 2016, 6:36 pm

Murray hasn't been that great, Marmion still has a lot of work to do though I think. Not a position of strength for Ireland but Reddan is obviously done and Marmion should very much be in every match day sqad.
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Post by eirebilly Sat 09 Apr 2016, 6:39 pm

Marmion has the speed of distribution but is not yet as savvy as Murray, this will come with more exposure at International level.
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Post by Notch Sat 09 Apr 2016, 6:42 pm

Yeah I hope so. Will be interesting to see how he copes in South Africa.
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Post by Sin é Sat 09 Apr 2016, 7:33 pm

eirebilly wrote:Marmion has the speed of distribution but is not yet as savvy as Murray, this will come with more exposure at International level.

Murray has it all. People complain about him being slow - he is slow because he is able to be and does not get turned over or scragged. Most important is his covering defence which is needed with Rob Kearney as your full back.

My take on Marmion is that he takes on too much himself which I would suspect Sexton would not be too happy with as he (like ROG) liked to boss his scrum half.
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Post by profitius Sat 09 Apr 2016, 7:49 pm

Marmion's one weakness his his box kicking. It isn't very good but the rest of his game is really solid and he deserves to be Ireland's second choice.


Notch wrote:The problem is the Pro12 is not a good enough level of rugby to indicate a player has what it takes to make the step up. Its so far below test standard... Still guys like Dillane and Henshaw have been recognised.

It's important that Connacht players perform well when they get into the European Cup next year.


Ah but Schmidt judges players on how they train! Wink
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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sat 09 Apr 2016, 7:55 pm

Murray might be slow because he is able to be (?) but at the best of times Ireland certainly don't need him to be slow whether he is able or not. Quicker service from the base of the ruck can be all the difference between finding a gap in the opposition defence or having to take the ball static for 20 phases.

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Post by Notch Sat 09 Apr 2016, 8:31 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Murray might be slow because he is able to be (?) but at the best of times Ireland certainly don't need him to be slow whether he is able or not. Quicker service from the base of the ruck can be all the difference between finding a gap in the opposition defence or having to take the ball static for 20 phases.

My big frustration with Murray in the last Six Nations was suddenly his box kicking game, which was so good when we won our last two titles, went badly off the boil this year.
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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sat 09 Apr 2016, 8:40 pm

Matt Healy is having an absolute stormer here for Connacht. His pace is just ridiculous.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Sat 09 Apr 2016, 8:42 pm

If Matt Healy can't get on the plane to SA, it will truly be a travesty. He has been simply magnificent against Grenoble and Lam's Connacht is giving us all a lesson in attacking rugby.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sat 09 Apr 2016, 8:51 pm

Although they are also shooting themselves in the foot with some poor exit strategies. They are trying to run the ball in the wrong areas of the field when it would be better to go for territory.

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Post by Marshes Sat 09 Apr 2016, 8:59 pm

Great first half, really silly to led Grenoble so far back into the game there think. I don't want to have a go at O Leary there for the cross-field kick and the poor restart because he is only in for a few games, but they have been costly.

On a positive note, Healy and Niyi have been on fire, and Connolly is playing well in the backrow. Getting quick ball from Marmion as well

Also what I've seen of Chris Farrell he looks like he is doing well there! Good to see a lad gettin on Very Happy

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Post by Marshes Sat 09 Apr 2016, 9:05 pm

Fionn Carr on as well, first we have seen of him in a good while, now would be a great time to recapture the old form!

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Post by Marshes Sat 09 Apr 2016, 9:11 pm

Holy god, Matt Healy, book that man a flight to South Africa

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Post by Marshes Sat 09 Apr 2016, 9:48 pm

Connacht playing without a flyhalf here, Cooney taking the kick

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Post by Sin é Sat 09 Apr 2016, 11:02 pm

Only saw bits of the game because stream I was watching kept dropping, but boy was that entertaining. Gutting for Connacht, but if they were to lose to anyone, I'm glad it was Grenoble who also entered the spirit of the thing. Credit to both teams and their coaches.
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Post by Sin é Sat 09 Apr 2016, 11:03 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Although they are also shooting themselves in the foot with some poor exit strategies. They are trying to run the ball in the wrong areas of the field when it would be better to go for territory.

Their philosophy is that they prefer to carry rather than tackle!
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Post by Sin é Sat 09 Apr 2016, 11:08 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Murray might be slow because he is able to be (?) but at the best of times Ireland certainly don't need him to be slow whether he is able or not. Quicker service from the base of the ruck can be all the difference between finding a gap in the opposition defence or having to take the ball static for 20 phases.

He isn't going to be hammered by some back row and lose the ball and by being able to hold onto the ball, Sexton will gets a bit less of a hammering.

Digging the ball out is what slows the ball down. International backrows make SHs work hard to get the ball out.
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Post by eirebilly Mon 11 Apr 2016, 6:02 am

Sin é wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Marmion has the speed of distribution but is not yet as savvy as Murray, this will come with more exposure at International level.

Murray has it all. People complain about him being slow - he is slow because he is able to be and does not get turned over or scragged. Most important is his covering defence which is needed with Rob Kearney as your full back.

My take on Marmion is that he takes on too much himself which I would suspect Sexton would not be too happy with as he (like ROG) liked to boss his scrum half.

I am not complaining about Murray being slow, I am just saying that Marmion has that speed about him. Don't often see him getting scragged a lot either to be honest. Murray is still the clear number 1 9 in Ireland but I think that Marmion is already the second best and is going to start pushing Murray for the starting spot very soon if he continues the way he is going.
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Post by Pete330v2 Mon 11 Apr 2016, 1:49 pm

I've always wanted to see Irish rugby firing on all four cylinders. The problem at the minute is we're now firing on one, the Connacht one. You westies have a fabulous side and I am gutted for you. It matters not though as very soon you'll be lifting the Pro12 trophy Smile

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Post by rodders Mon 11 Apr 2016, 3:15 pm

Irish XV for SA

15 Healy
14 Gilroy
13 Marshall
12 McCloskey
11 Scholes
10 Steenson
9 Stringer (C)
8 Heaslip
7 VDF
6 Stander
5 Dullaine
4 Ryan
3 Ross
2 Best
1 McGrath

Bench:- Healy, Cronin, White, Henderson, O'Donnell ,Marmion, ROG, Bundi-aki
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Post by marty2086 Mon 11 Apr 2016, 4:30 pm

Steenson and ROG probably have a better chance than Jackson Whistle

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Post by SecretFly Mon 11 Apr 2016, 8:52 pm

I AM complaining about Murray being slow....... Wink

So never mind what these easily pleased guys on 606 think of you, Murray. I'm watching you! Speed it up. Picnic fires and sit-around sing-songs after games not during them.

And it ain't close to being a 'Digging' issue Sin.

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Post by SecretFly Mon 11 Apr 2016, 8:54 pm

..oh and quit twirling the blasted ball as you wait to put in

..another sign that you're comfortable with a pedestrian pace! Wink

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Post by rodders Tue 12 Apr 2016, 9:07 am

#BringBackStrings
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Post by asoreleftshoulder Tue 12 Apr 2016, 4:08 pm

profitius wrote:Connacht stars at disadvantage in fight for Ireland call - McKeon

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/connacht-rugby/connacht-stars-at-disadvantage-in-fight-for-ireland-call-mckeon-34612568.html


Fair play to him for saying it. The players in Connacht would have watched Jordi Murphy start a world cup 1/4 final and must be baffled.

Which players would be baffled, give us some names?

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Post by profitius Tue 12 Apr 2016, 7:54 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
profitius wrote:Connacht stars at disadvantage in fight for Ireland call - McKeon

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/connacht-rugby/connacht-stars-at-disadvantage-in-fight-for-ireland-call-mckeon-34612568.html


Fair play to him for saying it. The players in Connacht would have watched Jordi Murphy start a world cup 1/4 final and must be baffled.

Which players would be baffled, give us some names?


Do you think Jordi Murphy is better than any Connacht backrow?
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Post by Notch Tue 12 Apr 2016, 8:36 pm

I would say yes, to be brutally honest.

Don't got me wrong, the Connacht players are playing out of their skin. Thats the issue in a nutshell. Leinster look poorly coached and are grinding out results with unglamorous functionality. Connacht are extremely well coached and full of confidence. That doesn't mean if you take a Connacht player and put him in a completely different team with different teammates, different plays and expect him to be the same player. The whole in Connacht is greater than the sum of its parts. Meanwhile Murphy is struggling to get a run of games and playing poorly but remains capable of the kind of form we saw from him when he was first called up. He probably needs to move. Somewhere he can still be considered for Ireland and get guaranteed game time... I wouldn't consider him for Ireland at all at the moment obviously, just as I wouldn't consider McKeon or Masterson or Muldoon, but I'd take him in a heartbeat for Ulster over any Connacht back row. Although Heenan would fit in well up here with his injury record.

It's just a bit revisionist to suggest that Murphy was in as poor form before the World Cup as he was after it, or that Connacht back rowers who aren't being selected would have an axe to grind seeing him get his caps when actually he's been unceremoniously dropped by Schmidt since then and there are a half dozen players ahead of him in the pecking order now. Murphy has done well in his 14 caps. He's benefited greatly from being able to cover multiple positions from the bench. Since then, he's been dislodged by better players.

Guess the argument wouldn't be as convincing if you said they were sick looking at the likes of Stander, O'Donnell or Van Der Flier keeping them out of the team! Smile
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Post by profitius Tue 12 Apr 2016, 9:33 pm

Muldoon, Masterson and McKeon would offer more grunt and they're not lacking skill either. The 3 of those have also played across the backrow and are properly versatile. Jordi Murphy isn't really versatile. He is a skillful 8, not a 7 and lacking as a 6.


On top of that Muldoons leadership would have been invaluable in the world cup.
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Post by asoreleftshoulder Wed 13 Apr 2016, 12:06 am

profitius wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
profitius wrote:Connacht stars at disadvantage in fight for Ireland call - McKeon

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/connacht-rugby/connacht-stars-at-disadvantage-in-fight-for-ireland-call-mckeon-34612568.html


Fair play to him for saying it. The players in Connacht would have watched Jordi Murphy start a world cup 1/4 final and must be baffled.

Which players would be baffled, give us some names?


Do you think Jordi Murphy is better than any Connacht backrow?

Well you've totally avoided my question and shifted the goalposts.Yes I do happen to think Murphy is a better backrow than any of Connacht's at 6 or 8.

The point you made is that the Connacht players would have been baffled by his selection,were these Connacht players playing better than Murphy at the end of last season?I really doubt you can make a serious case that any of them were,the fact that Murphy's form has dipped and the Connacht players have risen in the meantime is irrelevant.I doubt you made any calls for Connacht backrowers to be in the squad before the WC?

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Post by Sin é Wed 13 Apr 2016, 11:27 am

Ireland 1 Day National Camp next Sunday By position - 'borrowed' from elsewhere.

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Sean Cronin (St Marys/Leinster)
Rob Herring (Ulster)
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)

David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster)
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jack McGrath (St Marys/Leinster)

Finlay Bealham (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Tadgh Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)

Ultan Dillane (Corinthians/Connacht)
Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
Quinn Roux (Galwegians/Connacht)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)

Sean O’Brien (UCD/Leinster)
Tommy O’Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster)
Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
CJ Stander (Munster)
Rhys Ruddock (St Marys/Leinster)
Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster)

Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster)
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)

Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)
Kieran Marmion (Buccaneers/Connacht)

Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (St Marys/Leinster)

Luke Marshall (Ulster)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Stuart McCloskey (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
Stuart Olding (Ulster)
Jared Payne (Ulster)
Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster)

David Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Craig Gilroy (Ulster)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Matt Healy (Lansdowne/Connacht)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)

Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)
-----



No Tommy Bowe. Matt Healy in.
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Post by Notch Wed 13 Apr 2016, 11:39 am

Picking Bowe for this tour would be rather unjustifiable. He had slowed up before his latest injury setback and he's played 40 minutes of an A game since. Glad to see Healy preferred to him.
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Post by GunsGerms Wed 13 Apr 2016, 11:40 am

Thought O'Mahony was injured and ruled out of the summer tour. Why is he in the squad?

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Post by JmD Wed 13 Apr 2016, 12:07 pm

Just one correction to make Sin é, you seem to have listed Payne out of position Whistle

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Post by Sin é Wed 13 Apr 2016, 12:25 pm

GunsGerms wrote:Thought O'Mahony was injured and ruled out of the summer tour. Why is he in the squad?

Just bringing the future captain along for the ride?

Its ridiculous that Cian Healy is preferred to Buckley from Connacht.
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Post by Sin é Wed 13 Apr 2016, 12:26 pm

JmD wrote:Just one correction to make Sin é, you seem to have listed Payne out of position Whistle

Uncle Joe is the one you need to talk to to get that one sorted Rolling Eyes
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Post by GunsGerms Wed 13 Apr 2016, 12:41 pm

Sin é wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Thought O'Mahony was injured and ruled out of the summer tour. Why is he in the squad?

Just bringing the future captain along for the ride?

Its ridiculous that Cian Healy is preferred to Buckley from Connacht.

At least Healy isn't injured. What is the point of bringing in O'Mahoney when he is injured? In any case POM will struggle to get his place back with Stander in the team now so talk of being future captain may need to be put on hold.

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Post by gleesonisgod Wed 13 Apr 2016, 12:43 pm

Sin é wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Thought O'Mahony was injured and ruled out of the summer tour. Why is he in the squad?

Just bringing the future captain along for the ride?

Its ridiculous that Cian Healy is preferred to Buckley from Connacht.

Ye should really be Healy's last chance, although he did hav a great game last 6n vs Scotland, if anyone can get the best out of him it's Joe.

How Kilcoyne is there I do not know.

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Post by Sin é Wed 13 Apr 2016, 12:52 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Sin é wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Thought O'Mahony was injured and ruled out of the summer tour. Why is he in the squad?

Just bringing the future captain along for the ride?

Its ridiculous that Cian Healy is preferred to Buckley from Connacht.

At least Healy isn't injured. What is the point of bringing in O'Mahoney when he is injured? In any case POM will struggle to get his place back with Stander in the team now so talk of being future captain may need to be put on hold.

Healy is playing as if he is injured. Whistle

Its clearly obvious that by bringing an injured POM in that he will have no problem getting his starting place back. Its Heaslip that needs to be worried.
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Post by Sin é Wed 13 Apr 2016, 1:01 pm

gleesonisgod wrote:
Sin é wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Thought O'Mahony was injured and ruled out of the summer tour. Why is he in the squad?

Just bringing the future captain along for the ride?

Its ridiculous that Cian Healy is preferred to Buckley from Connacht.

Ye should really be Healy's last chance, although he did hav a great game last 6n vs Scotland, if anyone can get the best out of him it's Joe.

How Kilcoyne is there I do not know.

A great 'game' against Scotland? He played for about 10 minutes and in that time he made one run, conceeded a turnover and gave away a penalty!

Kilcoyne is very under rated by some for some reason. He is a very good ball carrier for one - he'd be more a like for like for Healy. I'd say Healy must be on his last chance now because he will be a liability in SA if he plays like he is now.


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Post by rodders Wed 13 Apr 2016, 1:12 pm

Gutted for Stringer, Steenson and Chris Farrell - doesn't Joe have access to BT Sport?
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Post by The Great Aukster Wed 13 Apr 2016, 1:41 pm

The message is clear - if you want to play overseas AND be considered for Ireland you'd better be world class!

I wouldn't think any of those are in the reckoning anyway Rodders, although James Hart might have been worth a look?

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Post by profitius Wed 13 Apr 2016, 2:16 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
profitius wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
profitius wrote:Connacht stars at disadvantage in fight for Ireland call - McKeon

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/connacht-rugby/connacht-stars-at-disadvantage-in-fight-for-ireland-call-mckeon-34612568.html


Fair play to him for saying it. The players in Connacht would have watched Jordi Murphy start a world cup 1/4 final and must be baffled.

Which players would be baffled, give us some names?


Do you think Jordi Murphy is better than any Connacht backrow?

Well you've totally avoided my question and shifted the goalposts.Yes I do happen to think Murphy is a better backrow than any of Connacht's at 6 or 8.

The point you made is that the Connacht players would have been baffled by his selection,were these Connacht players playing better than Murphy at the end of last season?I really doubt you can make a serious case that any of them were,the fact that Murphy's form has dipped and the Connacht players have risen in the meantime is irrelevant.I doubt you made any calls for Connacht backrowers to be in the squad before the WC?


Well well. Do you think Jordi still deserves to be ahead of the Connacht lads? Form is certainly irrelevant to Schmidt.


I didn't avoid your question btw. You asked which Connacht players would be baffled. McKeon for one but I don't know about the others because I can't read their minds. Wink
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Post by profitius Wed 13 Apr 2016, 2:22 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
At least Healy isn't injured. What is the point of bringing in O'Mahoney when he is injured? In any case POM will struggle to get his place back with Stander in the team now so talk of being future captain may need to be put on hold.


Yeah Ireland have been so much better since POM got injured. Very Happy
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Post by GunsGerms Wed 13 Apr 2016, 2:34 pm

profitius wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
At least Healy isn't injured. What is the point of bringing in O'Mahoney when he is injured? In any case POM will struggle to get his place back with Stander in the team now so talk of being future captain may need to be put on hold.


Yeah Ireland have been so much better since POM got injured. Very Happy

Our back row has definitely been one of out strongest units in the six nations. We won more rucks than any other team in the competition. I don't think we missed POM at all.

Good player but very over rated.

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