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England U20 RWC squad

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Post by Welly Mon 09 May 2016, 2:50 pm

Darren Atkins (Bath Rugby)
Josh Bainbridge (Yorkshire Carnegie)
Lewis Boyce (Yorkshire Carnegie)
Theo Brophy-Clews (London Irish)
Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons)
Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Matt Gallagher (Saracens)
Max Green (Yorkshire Carnegie)
Billy Keast (Exeter Chiefs)
Andrew Kitchener (Worcester Warriors)
Max Malins (Saracens)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby)
George Nott (Sale Sharks)
George Perkins (Saracens)
Harry Randall (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors)
Stan South (Harlequins)
Will Stuart (Wasps)
Huw Taylor (Worcester Warriors)
Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Walker (Saracens)
Jack Walker (Yorkshire Carnegie)
Tom West (Wasps)
Johnny Williams (London Irish)
Jack Willis (Wasps)

Some big names in there.

Under Haag I expect a better performance than the 6N's.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 09 May 2016, 3:39 pm

4 x Leeds
4 x Saracens
3 x Worcester
3 x Wasps
2 x Quins
2 x Gloucester
2 x L.Irish
2 x Bath
1 x Sale
1 x Exeter
1 x Saints
1 x Tigers
1 x Falcons



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Post by king_carlos Mon 09 May 2016, 3:41 pm

Looks like an excellent squad. It will be interesting to see how Haag juggles 4 of his biggest names being centres. I'd expect Mallinder and Williams to start at centre so perhaps Thorley on the wing and Marchant at FB?

A few surprising absences as well though. Matt Protheroe, George Worth and Paolo Odogwu all starters from the 6 Nations squad who are missing. Charli Thacker as well but with Mallinder, Williams, Thorley and Marchant available at centre they aren't short of quality in the midfield.

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Post by Welly Mon 09 May 2016, 4:30 pm

Worth was only a call up due to injuries originally.

Protheroe was poor IMO, too hetic.

Odogwu If rumours of his release is true then maybe something is up.

See a team of
1) Boyce
2) Walker
3) Stuart
4) Kitchener
5) Nott
6) Bainbridge
7) Evans
8) Chick
9) Green
10) TBC
11) Marchant
12) Mallinder
13) Williams
14) Thorley
15) Perkins

16) Singleton
17) Walker
18) West
19) Taylor
20) Mercer
21) Randall
22) SAR
23) Malins

Should do the trick IMO

That backline is very promising.

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Post by Margin_Walker Mon 09 May 2016, 5:13 pm

Don't think Protheroe is eligible on account of still being Welsh. They have different rules for the JWC than the 6N

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Post by lostinwales Mon 09 May 2016, 5:28 pm

Welly wrote:Worth was only a call up due to injuries originally.

Protheroe was poor IMO, too hetic.

Odogwu If rumours of his release is true then maybe something is up.

See a team of
1) Boyce
2) Walker
3) Stuart
4) Kitchener
5) Nott
6) Bainbridge
7) Evans
8) Chick
9) Green
10) TBC
11) Marchant
12) Mallinder
13) Williams
14) Thorley
15) Perkins

16) Singleton
17) Walker
18) West
19) Taylor
20) Mercer
21) Randall
22) SAR
23) Malins

Should do the trick IMO

That backline is very promising.

Stupid comment but I keep on looking at that list and thinking 'well who are the choices at 10 and why can't you make your mind up'. Great initials...

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 09 May 2016, 7:05 pm

I presume Brophy-Clews will get the nod at 10 given how much game time he's had at LI and how composed he looked then. Protheroe can stay Welsh, I was not impressed with his headless chicken routine during the J6N.

Odowgu had been struggling with a muscle injury picked up around the six nations time so might still not be fit. Possible off the field issues not helping maybe.

Didn't Nott play a little at 6 during the 6N? I seem to remember him being very mobile, almost Croft esque in full flight.

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Post by Welly Mon 09 May 2016, 7:11 pm

Odogwu been playing for Loughbrough so isn't injured.

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Post by DaveM Mon 09 May 2016, 8:29 pm

Well they'd be hard pressed to do worse than the group who represented England so poorly in the 6 Nations, but with Haag in place and some strong players coming in there should be a significant improvement.

I'm pleased to see Protheroe absent, whatever the reason. Maybe he make it playing FB at professional level, but England won't miss him at FH at the moment.

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Post by DaveM Mon 09 May 2016, 9:05 pm

Welly wrote:Worth was only a call up due to injuries originally.

Protheroe was poor IMO, too hetic.

Odogwu If rumours of his release is true then maybe something is up.

See a team of
1) Boyce
2) Walker
3) Stuart
4) Kitchener
5) Nott
6) Bainbridge
7) Evans
8) Chick
9) Green
10) TBC
11) Marchant
12) Mallinder
13) Williams
14) Thorley
15) Perkins

16) Singleton
17) Walker
18) West
19) Taylor
20) Mercer
21) Randall
22) SAR
23) Malins

Should do the trick IMO

That backline is very promising.

Mallinder may well start at FB, with Williams and perhaps Marchant as the centres. Haag has to be able to get more out of Marchant than the previous regime managed.

However, I reckon next summer will see Mallinder touring with the seniors as an IC.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 09 May 2016, 9:20 pm

Mallinder is wasted at 15 and I don't understand why Saints didn't give him an extended go at 12. He's a beast for a 19 year old, 6 foot 5 and 17 stone who can also play 10. That's play maker or bosh centre all in one.

It's a very bright group of talent. I felt the team we had in the 6Ns needed greater guidance at half back and a little more steel in the pack. We look to have that plus some big fireworks in the backs. I thought Johnny Williams might have had a look in for a Saxons or Barbarians type game.

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Post by DaveM Mon 09 May 2016, 9:42 pm

I don't think he's wasted at 15, but he's a special talent and would probably be my current bet to play 12 at the 2019 WC. He's like a slightly more gifted version of Twlevetrees (and 36 is undoubtedly very gifted), whilst being a better athlete and not at present showing signs of the mental flakiness which undermined Billy's career.

For Saints I guess he's up against Burrell at IC. I reckon he's probably already a better 12 than Luther, but I can understand the coaches making the decisions they are currently making.

Williams is also potentially good enough to be in the 2019 squad. A slightly more limited player than Mallinder, but still more rounded than someone like Barritt ever was, and with plenty of time to add further skills (and power).

Hopefully Devoto will kick on at Chiefs. Then Tuilagi could return to 13, Farrell can be left to focus on 10, and Slade (who was fabulous against Quins) can go with whichever of these positions he prefers to focus on, given the strength of depth at 12.

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Post by DaveM Mon 09 May 2016, 9:48 pm

Interesting Underhill isn't here. He would obviously have added something at 6.

As it stands presumably he'll be playing 7 for the Saxons.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 10 May 2016, 7:42 am

DaveM wrote:Interesting Underhill isn't here. He would obviously have added something at 6.

As it stands presumably he'll be playing 7 for the Saxons.

The "special case" clause needs to be invoked for Underhill to be selected for any England representative team. Not much point wasting that on a tournament that would not tie him up I guess.

Right now his end of year exams have just started - probably far more important than anything else going on for him.

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Post by yappysnap Tue 10 May 2016, 8:51 am

I'd go with:
10. Brophy-Clews
12. Mallinder
13. Marchant

They've all played really well in the Prem and should flourish at U20 level. Hopefully we'll get more space for Marchant with Mallinders strength and subtle passing game. All three are good kickers too.

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Post by Welly Tue 10 May 2016, 8:53 am

For me Williams is way ahead of Merchant in the midfield and would be wasted if not starting there.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 10 May 2016, 9:24 am

I have not seen enough of LI to judge Williams, only the games against us and not sure if he played. If he did he did not stay in my memory.

What I have seen of Marchant at Quins looked pretty special, but thought he was playing at 12 rather than 13.

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Post by Welly Tue 10 May 2016, 9:28 am

Having watched both of them this season Williams is the more promising player IMO.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 10 May 2016, 11:04 am

How different is your team there from the one that played in the 6N?

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Post by king_carlos Tue 10 May 2016, 11:16 am

It should be much stronger mikey. The bulk of the side is similar but added to it you have Will Evans, Theo Brophy-Clews, Harry Mallinder, Johnny Williams, Joe Marchant and Ollie Thorley who were playing Prem rugby during the 6 Nations.

Will Evans is an openside who has really impressed for Tigers in a couple of Prem appearances. He should boost the break down work that was lacking in the 6 Nations.

Theo Brophy-Clews is the young London Irish fly half who should offer much more direction than Protheroe did during the 6 Nations.

Mallinder, Marchant, Williams and Thorley are all centres by trade who have been playing Prem rugby with differing consistency and will add a lot of fire power. I expect all 4 will start in the back line with 2 of them in the centre and the other 2 in the back three.

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Post by Welly Tue 10 May 2016, 11:46 am

mikey_dragon wrote:How different is your team there from the one that played in the 6N?

SHOULDSHOULD be night and day.

Tight 5 still a worry for me.

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Post by DaveM Tue 10 May 2016, 10:29 pm

The change in coaching may well be just as important as the change in players.

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Post by Poorfour Wed 11 May 2016, 9:27 am

DaveM wrote:I don't think he's wasted at 15, but he's a special talent and would probably be my current bet to play 12 at the 2019 WC. He's like a slightly more gifted version of Twlevetrees (and 36 is undoubtedly very gifted), whilst being a better athlete and not at present showing signs of the mental flakiness which undermined Billy's career.

That's damning with faint praise! I think a fairer comparison is to England's other 6'5" centre-with-a-background-at-10-and-a-famous-coach-for-a-father. Will Greenwood.

Mallinder isn't quite in that class yet, but he looks like he could get there sooner rather than later.

What's really encouraging is - after years of having very limited midfield players - we have a generation of English players coming through who are genuine footballers. In the backs you have the likes of Farrell, Mallinder, Slade, Marchant, Brophy-Clews - all of whom are able to play 10 and at least one centre position, supplemented with Ford, Joseph, Tuilagi, who are more positionally specialist but add a lot of talent. In the forwards, you have Clifford (a former centre), Beaumont (a former 10) and even Sinckler (a former fullback, believe it or not). The attacking potential is huge - and of that lot only Ford hits below his weight defensively.
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Post by LondonTiger Wed 11 May 2016, 9:30 am

Poorfour wrote:
DaveM wrote:I don't think he's wasted at 15, but he's a special talent and would probably be my current bet to play 12 at the 2019 WC. He's like a slightly more gifted version of Twlevetrees (and 36 is undoubtedly very gifted), whilst being a better athlete and not at present showing signs of the mental flakiness which undermined Billy's career.

That's damning with faint praise!

I disagree. Looks like a lot of praise to me so long as you read the entire comment.

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Post by yappysnap Wed 11 May 2016, 8:34 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I have not seen enough of LI to judge Williams, only the games against us and not sure if he played. If he did he did not stay in my memory.

What I have seen of Marchant at Quins looked pretty special, but thought he was playing at 12 rather than 13.

To my mind and I think the coaches mind he's a 13 who can cover 12, and even fly half at a push. But his step and pace is best suited to 13.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 11 May 2016, 10:42 pm

Poorfour wrote:
DaveM wrote:I don't think he's wasted at 15, but he's a special talent and would probably be my current bet to play 12 at the 2019 WC. He's like a slightly more gifted version of Twlevetrees (and 36 is undoubtedly very gifted), whilst being a better athlete and not at present showing signs of the mental flakiness which undermined Billy's career.

That's damning with faint praise! I think a fairer comparison is to England's other 6'5" centre-with-a-background-at-10-and-a-famous-coach-for-a-father. Will Greenwood.

Mallinder isn't quite in that class yet, but he looks like he could get there sooner rather than later.

What's really encouraging is - after years of having very limited midfield players - we have a generation of English players coming through who are genuine footballers. In the backs you have the likes of Farrell, Mallinder, Slade, Marchant, Brophy-Clews - all of whom are able to play 10 and at least one centre position, supplemented with Ford, Joseph, Tuilagi, who are more positionally specialist but add a lot of talent. In the forwards, you have Clifford (a former centre), Beaumont (a former 10) and even Sinckler (a former fullback, believe it or not). The attacking potential is huge - and of that lot only Ford hits below his weight defensively.

To be fair to Ford he hits at his weight. He isn't the biggest bloke but does bring down his man, just normally after they've reached the gain line and gone over it. He's brave just not very powerful.

Adding to the list of converted backs Thacker was a 10/15 before deciding he wanted to be a hooker. That's fairly obvious when you see his try vs Saints though.

Going back to DaveM and Mallinder being wasted at 15, well he is. Positionally he's suspect as he's not a natural 15, see the game vs Bath, it also reduces his ability to distribute which is a big element to his game and we all know the advantage of a 12 at can bosh and distribute. At 12 or maybe even at 10 he can cause a lot of problems. At 15 he can cause some whilst you lose him from the defensive line and this is age grade rugby, he's big for senior rugby so why hide that physicality at the back of the field?

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Post by DaveM Thu 12 May 2016, 8:28 pm

He'll get loads of time on the ball, probably more so than at 12. But we'll see what Haag wants to do - it probably doesn't matter very much either way.

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