EU exit - So folks what are you all thinking?

by Sin é Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:58 pm

First topic message reminder :

Just curious to know what you all think and what way you will be voting.

Will it have an affect on rugby (from point of view of bringing in non-British players, coaches for example).
Will sterling devalue so that it will be impossible for English clubs to compete with French Euro clubs
What about Scotland? Will this push them out of the UK?
How about Ulster fans - are you looking forward to the reinstallation of the Border?

by Sin é Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:06 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:Passport control means there is a border. What about trading?

I know, I did clarify, Sin é.

I can only hope that something is worked out between the EU, the UK, and the RoI on trade. We do know that's what your guys are pushing for, and will just have to see how that progresses.

Well your guys are going the right way about it. I see Arlene Foster has told Enda to butt out. You will probably be depending on a Tory PM who doesn't give two Poopie about Northern Ireland and didn't support the Good Friday Agreement to persuade a German to be nice to NI and let them trade with the EU - all for nothing.

Good luck with that one.

by Guest Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:14 pm

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:Passport control means there is a border. What about trading?

I know, I did clarify, Sin é.

I can only hope that something is worked out between the EU, the UK, and the RoI on trade. We do know that's what your guys are pushing for, and will just have to see how that progresses.

Well your guys are going the right way about it. I see Arlene Foster has told Enda to butt out. You will probably be depending on a Tory PM who doesn't give two Poopie about Northern Ireland and didn't support the Good Friday Agreement to persuade a German to be nice to NI and let them trade with the EU - all for nothing.

Good luck with that one.

Foster is only one voice, Sin é. Remember, Northern Ireland voted Remain, including many Ulster Unionists.

What makes you think May has an issue with the Good Friday Agreement? As far as I'm aware it's ECHR she has an issue with.

by SecretFly Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:21 pm

Foster was right to tell Kenny to butt out. Kenny struggles to reflect the views of his own Nation and then decides he's going to lead from the front for NI? The arrogance of Head Office held for much too long - plus a dose of Delusions of Grandeur in European terms.

Kenny barks at Merkel. Merkel pats him on the head and offers him a treat. Kenny wolfs down the little treat and licks Merkel's feet. That's been the on-going story of our own Great Leader to date.

by Sin é Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:02 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:Passport control means there is a border. What about trading?

I know, I did clarify, Sin é.

I can only hope that something is worked out between the EU, the UK, and the RoI on trade. We do know that's what your guys are pushing for, and will just have to see how that progresses.

Well your guys are going the right way about it. I see Arlene Foster has told Enda to butt out. You will probably be depending on a Tory PM who doesn't give two Poopie about Northern Ireland and didn't support the Good Friday Agreement to persuade a German to be nice to NI and let them trade with the EU - all for nothing.

Good luck with that one.

Foster is only one voice, Sin é. Remember, Northern Ireland voted Remain, including many Ulster Unionists.

What makes you think May has an issue with the Good Friday Agreement? As far as I'm aware it's ECHR she has an issue with.

You seriously think Foster is going to bother about what the vote was in NI? Her party wanted out.

Just some stuff I've read which said that she didn't support the NI Peace Process. I think its worth nothing that the only mention I have heard about NI coming from any of the Tories is that NI is out of step with the rest of the UK with regard to same sex marriage.

by Guest Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:11 pm

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:Passport control means there is a border. What about trading?

I know, I did clarify, Sin é.

I can only hope that something is worked out between the EU, the UK, and the RoI on trade. We do know that's what your guys are pushing for, and will just have to see how that progresses.

Well your guys are going the right way about it. I see Arlene Foster has told Enda to butt out. You will probably be depending on a Tory PM who doesn't give two Poopie about Northern Ireland and didn't support the Good Friday Agreement to persuade a German to be nice to NI and let them trade with the EU - all for nothing.

Good luck with that one.

Foster is only one voice, Sin é. Remember, Northern Ireland voted Remain, including many Ulster Unionists.

What makes you think May has an issue with the Good Friday Agreement? As far as I'm aware it's ECHR she has an issue with.

You seriously think Foster is going to bother about what the vote was in NI? Her party wanted out.

Just some stuff I've read which said that she didn't support the NI Peace Process. I think its worth nothing that the only mention I have heard about NI coming from any of the Tories is that NI is out of step with the rest of the UK with regard to same sex marriage.

She may not, but she doesn't represent all Ulster Unionists.

Give me a link to May stating that she doesn't support the peace process. I don't believe she did. Admit it, you made that up devil

You haven't been listening to the Tories if that's all you've heard them say. Were you not following the Scottish referendum?

Think you're trying to make out that we're not loved, Sin é Sad

by Sin é Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:18 pm

SecretFly wrote:Foster was right to tell Kenny to butt out. Kenny struggles to reflect the views of his own Nation and then decides he's going to lead from the front for NI? The arrogance of Head Office held for much too long - plus a dose of Delusions of Grandeur in European terms.

Kenny barks at Merkel. Merkel pats him on the head and offers him a treat. Kenny wolfs down the little treat and licks Merkel's feet. That's been the on-going story of our own Great Leader to date.

Actually, what she was rebutting was the proposal of an all-Ireland forum which Kenny proposed last week to deal with Brexit.

She seems to be under the illusion that the British Government and Northern Ireland Executive will be negotiating the UK's exit from the EU!

Now, thats a woman who wants to put up a border between ROI & NI.

by Guest Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:27 pm

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Foster was right to tell Kenny to butt out. Kenny struggles to reflect the views of his own Nation and then decides he's going to lead from the front for NI? The arrogance of Head Office held for much too long - plus a dose of Delusions of Grandeur in European terms.

Kenny barks at Merkel. Merkel pats him on the head and offers him a treat. Kenny wolfs down the little treat and licks Merkel's feet. That's been the on-going story of our own Great Leader to date.

Actually, what she was rebutting was the proposal of an all-Ireland forum which Kenny proposed last week to deal with Brexit.

She seems to be under the illusion that the British Government and Northern Ireland Executive will be negotiating the UK's exit from the EU!

Now, thats a woman who wants to put up a border between ROI & NI.

Indisputable Laugh

by SecretFly Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:38 pm

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Foster was right to tell Kenny to butt out. Kenny struggles to reflect the views of his own Nation and then decides he's going to lead from the front for NI? The arrogance of Head Office held for much too long - plus a dose of Delusions of Grandeur in European terms.

Kenny barks at Merkel. Merkel pats him on the head and offers him a treat. Kenny wolfs down the little treat and licks Merkel's feet. That's been the on-going story of our own Great Leader to date.

Actually, what she was rebutting was the proposal of an all-Ireland forum which Kenny proposed last week to deal with Brexit.

She seems to be under the illusion that the British Government and Northern Ireland Executive will be negotiating the UK's exit from the EU!

Now, thats a woman who wants to put up a border between ROI & NI.

These debates can become so surreal.

And you're under the illusion, Sin, that something else is going to happen?
There's a woman that has a mandate to run NI... NI ain't the ROI. NI is part of the UK. Enda should tell the UK Prime Minister to f**k off, that he now speaks for the NI people as well as his own?

What would an All Ireland forum achieve anyway? EU membership for some citizens of the UK but not for the rest that don't want it? And the EU, with Spain as an eagle eyed member, would allow such laissez-faire 'Personal' EU citizenship rights to localities within a single Nation? Is Enda now in the same game Junker is in? - assuming authority to rule over Nation States by virtue of simply wanting to?

by Sin é Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:44 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:Passport control means there is a border. What about trading?

I know, I did clarify, Sin é.

I can only hope that something is worked out between the EU, the UK, and the RoI on trade. We do know that's what your guys are pushing for, and will just have to see how that progresses.

Well your guys are going the right way about it. I see Arlene Foster has told Enda to butt out. You will probably be depending on a Tory PM who doesn't give two Poopie about Northern Ireland and didn't support the Good Friday Agreement to persuade a German to be nice to NI and let them trade with the EU - all for nothing.

Good luck with that one.

Foster is only one voice, Sin é. Remember, Northern Ireland voted Remain, including many Ulster Unionists.

What makes you think May has an issue with the Good Friday Agreement? As far as I'm aware it's ECHR she has an issue with.

You seriously think Foster is going to bother about what the vote was in NI? Her party wanted out.

Just some stuff I've read which said that she didn't support the NI Peace Process. I think its worth nothing that the only mention I have heard about NI coming from any of the Tories is that NI is out of step with the rest of the UK with regard to same sex marriage.

She may not, but she doesn't represent all Ulster Unionists.

Give me a link to May stating that she doesn't support the peace process. I don't believe she did. Admit it, you made that up

You haven't been listening to the Tories if that's all you've heard them say. Were you not following the Scottish referendum?

Think you're trying to make out that we're not loved, Sin é

No she doesn't she represents the DUP and thats all she cares about. They are the ones who voted to leave the EU.

No I didn't make it up. The Tories couldn't give two feics about Northern Ireland and never have.

This is how Mrs May will undermine the Northern Ireland Peace Process from a fairly reputable source.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/theresa-may-threat-withdraw-european-convention-would-mean-%E2%80%98ripping-good-friday

Anything I've heard emanating from British Politicians, be they Tory or Labour is lies.

by Guest Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:52 pm

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
No she doesn't she represents the DUP and thats all she cares about. They are the ones who voted to leave the EU.

No I didn't make it up. The Tories couldn't give two feics about Northern Ireland and never have.

This is how Mrs May will undermine the Northern Ireland Peace Process from a fairly reputable source.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/theresa-may-threat-withdraw-european-convention-would-mean-%E2%80%98ripping-good-friday

Anything I've heard emanating from British Politicians, be they Tory or Labour is lies.

Not all DUP voters voted leave. Although that was the Party stance, the DUP did say it's voters should feel free to vote as they wish. Very kind of them.

If you didn't make it up them provide the evidence. It would be an incredible thing to say, so there most be something you can link to.

I've already read the amnesty report. May wouldn't get very far with pulling out of ECHR.

Right, so you point me to the only thing you've heard a Tory mention about NI, and now you're telling me that whatever they say is all lies anyway. Just so you can wriggle out of an argument.

You're a naughty man, Sin é.

by Sin é Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:53 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Foster was right to tell Kenny to butt out. Kenny struggles to reflect the views of his own Nation and then decides he's going to lead from the front for NI? The arrogance of Head Office held for much too long - plus a dose of Delusions of Grandeur in European terms.

Kenny barks at Merkel. Merkel pats him on the head and offers him a treat. Kenny wolfs down the little treat and licks Merkel's feet. That's been the on-going story of our own Great Leader to date.

Actually, what she was rebutting was the proposal of an all-Ireland forum which Kenny proposed last week to deal with Brexit.

She seems to be under the illusion that the British Government and Northern Ireland Executive will be negotiating the UK's exit from the EU!

Now, thats a woman who wants to put up a border between ROI & NI.

These debates can become so surreal.

And you're under the illusion, Sin, that something else is going to happen?
There's a woman that has a mandate to run NI... NI ain't the ROI. NI is part of the UK. Enda should tell the UK Prime Minister to f**k off, that he now speaks for the NI people as well as his own?

What would an All Ireland forum achieve anyway? EU membership for some citizens of the UK but not for the rest that don't want it? And the EU, with Spain as an eagle eyed member, would allow such laissez-faire 'Personal' EU citizenship rights to localities within a single Nation? Is Enda now in the same game Junker is in? - assuming authority to rule over Nation States by virtue of simply wanting to?

Arlene Foster [b]may have a electoral mandate, but it does not give her a mandate to run Northern Ireland. Have you not noticed their unusual Stormont Executive setup?

I think you are getting what Enda said in Europe with regard to Scotland (which he was asked to do so by Nicola Sturgeon). He didn't mention Northern Ireland.

Ireland is probably the only friend the UK has in Europe at the moment. They would be wise to maintain that friendship considering the upcoming negotiations when they could do with a friendly face on the other side of the table.

by SecretFly Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:56 pm

Sin é wrote:

This is how Mrs May will undermine the Northern Ireland Peace Process from a fairly reputable source.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/theresa-may-threat-withdraw-european-convention-would-mean-%E2%80%98ripping-good-friday

Anything I've heard emanating from British Politicians, be they Tory or Labour is lies.

So May wants not just the hassle of trying to find a way to continue trading with the EU for the good of her economy and the welfare of her people, but she also wants war back on her doorstep in NI?

These conventions are created and they can be deleted and replaced with other conventions. They come into being before they exist so why would an end to a specific European convention (if required at all in the event of Brexit) not be replaced through agreements with another convention or agreements specific to the unique circumstances on these islands?

Why is the alternative to the EU part of Nation to Nation biz always a negative?

by **Notch** Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:00 pm

Arlene Foster will burn Northern Ireland to the ground to keep control over it. Happily. The less secure voters jobs are the angrier voters here will get. The more angry voters are the safer the extremist ends of Unionists and Nationalists are in their own jobs.

And the DUP didn't like the EU telling them they were legally obliged to support legislation that protects minority languages and cultures, nor do they like that Enda Kenny accepted the result of the Equal Marriage Referendum in Ireland.

Enda Kenny is just like Nicola Sturgeon in their eyes i.e. Someone who has supported the rights of immigrants, homosexuals and Catholics to enjoy equal status under the law.

by Guest Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:03 pm

Notch wrote:Arlene Foster will burn Northern Ireland to the ground to keep control over it. Happily. The less secure voters jobs are the angrier voters here will get. The more angry voters are the safer the extremist ends of Unionists and Nationalists are in their own jobs.

And the DUP didn't like the EU telling them they were legally obliged to support legislation that protects minority languages and cultures, nor do they like that Enda Kenny accepted the result of the Equal Marriage Referendum in Ireland.

Enda Kenny is just like Nicola Sturgeon in their eyes i.e. Someone who has supported the rights of immigrants, homosexuals and Catholics to enjoy equal status under the law.

Arlene Foster doesn't have control of it.

by SecretFly Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:09 pm

Sin é wrote:

Arlene Foster [b]may have a electoral mandate, but it does not give her a mandate to run Northern Ireland. Have you not noticed their unusual Stormont Executive setup?

I think you are getting what Enda said in Europe with regard to Scotland (which he was asked to do so by Nicola Sturgeon). He didn't mention Northern Ireland.

Ireland is probably the only friend the UK has in Europe at the moment. They would be wise to maintain that friendship considering the upcoming negotiations when they could do with a friendly face on the other side of the table.

I know all about the Stormont set-up... there is no way Martin McGuinness is taking any part of his bit of Stormont over to Kenny to have Kenny deal with it instead of the future Prime Minister of the UK...not on Foster's watch he isn't Wink

The Scotland analogy I can't make sense of in the context other than that Kenny was told to mind his own business there too. Kenny has enough problems of his own. He should stick to them and stop trying out the Statesman hat (unless he's lining himself up to take over from Juncker when Merkel 'sacks' that guy??)

The third point - Ireland a friend to the UK? Strange then that when the UK was always looking for reforms to the EU, Ireland were never that close behind them, backing them up. The UK were always isolated, on their own, as Kenny and other Irish leaders whispered to their 'real' allies - the people who rewarded lapdogs with little treats.

That loyal EU sufferance backfired all over the place in the last decade or so, didn't it. Wink

And still Kenny thinks he and his people are loved and cherished by the Lords of the EU castle.

by Sin é Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:10 pm

[quote="Munchkin"]

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
No she doesn't she represents the DUP and thats all she cares about. They are the ones who voted to leave the EU.

No I didn't make it up. The Tories couldn't give two feics about Northern Ireland and never have.

This is how Mrs May will undermine the Northern Ireland Peace Process from a fairly reputable source.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/theresa-may-threat-withdraw-european-convention-would-mean-%E2%80%98ripping-good-friday

Anything I've heard emanating from British Politicians, be they Tory or Labour is lies.

Not all DUP voters voted leave. Although that was the Party stance, the DUP did say it's voters should feel free to vote as they wish. Very kind of them.

If you didn't make it up them provide the evidence. It would be an incredible thing to say, so there most be something you can link to.

I've already read the amnesty report. May wouldn't get very far with pulling out of ECHR.

Right, so you point me to the only thing you've heard a Tory mention about NI, and now you're telling me that whatever they say is all lies anyway. Just so you can wriggle out of an argument.

You're a naughty man, Sin é.

The fact that she wants to pull out of ECHT says that Northern Ireland is towards the bottom of her priorities. The only thing I've heard from Villiers is that there won't be a Border between the RoI & NI.

It was a very dishonest campaign from all sides and I wouldn't take seriously any promises made by any of them about anything. They are all self-serving. Since the Brexit referendum, the only mention I have heard from the Tories to do with Northern Ireland is to do with introducing legislation for same sex marriage. Michael Gove, a senior member of the Tory Party wrote:

irish times wrote:In The Price of Peace, his long pamphlet for the right-wing Centre for Policy Studies, published in 2000, Gove characterised the entire peace process as nothing more than a capitulation to the IRA. He insisted that the cause of the Troubles was British lack of firmness in facing down demands for a united Ireland and argued that, if only British governments had taken a harder line, the IRA would have become discouraged and given up. This is idiocy but, like Gove’s Brexit theorems, dangerous idiocy.

Now, if you can produce something different which was said about NI since Brexit, I'll be pleased to read it.

by Guest Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:17 pm

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
No she doesn't she represents the DUP and thats all she cares about. They are the ones who voted to leave the EU.

No I didn't make it up. The Tories couldn't give two feics about Northern Ireland and never have.

This is how Mrs May will undermine the Northern Ireland Peace Process from a fairly reputable source.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/theresa-may-threat-withdraw-european-convention-would-mean-%E2%80%98ripping-good-friday

Anything I've heard emanating from British Politicians, be they Tory or Labour is lies.

Not all DUP voters voted leave. Although that was the Party stance, the DUP did say it's voters should feel free to vote as they wish. Very kind of them.

If you didn't make it up them provide the evidence. It would be an incredible thing to say, so there most be something you can link to.

I've already read the amnesty report. May wouldn't get very far with pulling out of ECHR.

Right, so you point me to the only thing you've heard a Tory mention about NI, and now you're telling me that whatever they say is all lies anyway. Just so you can wriggle out of an argument.

You're a naughty man, Sin é.

The fact that she wants to pull out of ECHT says that Northern Ireland is towards the bottom of her priorities. The only thing I've heard from Villiers is that there won't be a Border between the RoI & NI.

It was a very dishonest campaign from all sides and I wouldn't take seriously any promises made by any of them about anything. They are all self-serving. Since the Brexit referendum, the only mention I have heard from the Tories to do with Northern Ireland is to do with introducing legislation for same sex marriage. Michael Gove, a senior member of the Tory Party wrote:

irish times wrote:In The Price of Peace, his long pamphlet for the right-wing Centre for Policy Studies, published in 2000, Gove characterised the entire peace process as nothing more than a capitulation to the IRA. He insisted that the cause of the Troubles was British lack of firmness in facing down demands for a united Ireland and argued that, if only British governments had taken a harder line, the IRA would have become discouraged and given up. This is idiocy but, like Gove’s Brexit theorems, dangerous idiocy.

Now, if you can produce something different which was said about NI since Brexit, I'll be pleased to read it.

Sin é, I don't trust any politician. None. The only time I have voted in years was my vote for Remain. Sick of the lies, and sick of conflict politics from the top 4 in Northern Ireland.

You still haven't given my anything on May. I already know what Gove said. That's why I said he's a dangerous man. Not just for Northern Ireland, but for all of the UK.

I can't give you anything since Brexit. It was only a week ago! Very Happy

by Sin é Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:19 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:

Arlene Foster [b]may have a electoral mandate, but it does not give her a mandate to run Northern Ireland. Have you not noticed their unusual Stormont Executive setup?

I think you are getting what Enda said in Europe with regard to Scotland (which he was asked to do so by Nicola Sturgeon). He didn't mention Northern Ireland.

Ireland is probably the only friend the UK has in Europe at the moment. They would be wise to maintain that friendship considering the upcoming negotiations when they could do with a friendly face on the other side of the table.

I know all about the Stormont set-up... there is no way Martin McGuinness is taking any part of his bit of Stormont over to Kenny to have Kenny deal with it instead of the future Prime Minister of the UK...not on Foster's watch he isn't

There was nothing mentioned about Kenney negotiating on behalf of Northern Ireland in the EU. What he had proposed was an All Ireland Forum to get the Island of Ireland to prepare for Brexit. Sinn Fein actually wrote to Enda requesting him to do this. Arlene knocked that on the head and said that all the preparation for NI leaving the EU will be done with Westminster.

The Scotland analogy I can't make sense of in the context other than that Kenny was told to mind his own business there too. Kenny has enough problems of his own. He should stick to them and stop trying out the Statesman hat (unless he's lining himself up to take over from Juncker when Merkel 'sacks' that guy??)

Sturgen asked Kenny to bring up the situation of Scotland at the Council of Minister's meeting which he did. This annoyed the UK and some people who reckon that we should just look after our own interests.

The third point - Ireland a friend to the UK? Strange then that when the UK was always looking for reforms to the EU, Ireland were never that close behind them, backing them up. The UK were always isolated, on their own, as Kenny and other Irish leaders whispered to their 'real' allies - the people who rewarded lapdogs with little treats.

Thats actually not true. UK and Ireland usually worked together and supported each other generally.

That loyal EU sufferance backfired all over the place in the last decade or so, didn't it. Wink

And still Kenny thinks he and his people are loved and cherished by the Lords of the EU castle.[/quote]

by Sin é Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:28 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
No she doesn't she represents the DUP and thats all she cares about. They are the ones who voted to leave the EU.

No I didn't make it up. The Tories couldn't give two feics about Northern Ireland and never have.

This is how Mrs May will undermine the Northern Ireland Peace Process from a fairly reputable source.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/theresa-may-threat-withdraw-european-convention-would-mean-%E2%80%98ripping-good-friday

Anything I've heard emanating from British Politicians, be they Tory or Labour is lies.

Not all DUP voters voted leave. Although that was the Party stance, the DUP did say it's voters should feel free to vote as they wish. Very kind of them.

If you didn't make it up them provide the evidence. It would be an incredible thing to say, so there most be something you can link to.

I've already read the amnesty report. May wouldn't get very far with pulling out of ECHR.

Right, so you point me to the only thing you've heard a Tory mention about NI, and now you're telling me that whatever they say is all lies anyway. Just so you can wriggle out of an argument.

You're a naughty man, Sin é.

The fact that she wants to pull out of ECHT says that Northern Ireland is towards the bottom of her priorities. The only thing I've heard from Villiers is that there won't be a Border between the RoI & NI.

It was a very dishonest campaign from all sides and I wouldn't take seriously any promises made by any of them about anything. They are all self-serving. Since the Brexit referendum, the only mention I have heard from the Tories to do with Northern Ireland is to do with introducing legislation for same sex marriage. Michael Gove, a senior member of the Tory Party wrote:

irish times wrote:In The Price of Peace, his long pamphlet for the right-wing Centre for Policy Studies, published in 2000, Gove characterised the entire peace process as nothing more than a capitulation to the IRA. He insisted that the cause of the Troubles was British lack of firmness in facing down demands for a united Ireland and argued that, if only British governments had taken a harder line, the IRA would have become discouraged and given up. This is idiocy but, like Gove’s Brexit theorems, dangerous idiocy.

Now, if you can produce something different which was said about NI since Brexit, I'll be pleased to read it.

Sin é, I don't trust any politician. None. The only time I have voted in years was my vote for Remain. Sick of the lies, and sick of conflict politics from the top 4 in Northern Ireland.

You still haven't given my anything on May. I already know what Gove said. That's why I said he's a dangerous man. Not just for Northern Ireland, but for all of the UK.

I can't give you anything since Brexit. It was only a week ago!

Gove is a senior and influential member of the Tories, so likely to express the general thinking in NI. They will only take an interest in NI if they need NI MP support in Westminster. May, by her actions indicates that she does not give a Poopie what happens in Northern Ireland.

Well, I've been keeping a good eye on it, and not a word about what Brexit will do to Northern Ireland.

by **Notch** Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:30 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Notch wrote:Arlene Foster will burn Northern Ireland to the ground to keep control over it. Happily. The less secure voters jobs are the angrier voters here will get. The more angry voters are the safer the extremist ends of Unionists and Nationalists are in their own jobs.

And the DUP didn't like the EU telling them they were legally obliged to support legislation that protects minority languages and cultures, nor do they like that Enda Kenny accepted the result of the Equal Marriage Referendum in Ireland.

Enda Kenny is just like Nicola Sturgeon in their eyes i.e. Someone who has supported the rights of immigrants, homosexuals and Catholics to enjoy equal status under the law.

Arlene Foster doesn't have control of it.

Maybe not, but she's First Minister and the DUP are going nowhere.

by Guest Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:38 pm

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
No she doesn't she represents the DUP and thats all she cares about. They are the ones who voted to leave the EU.

No I didn't make it up. The Tories couldn't give two feics about Northern Ireland and never have.

This is how Mrs May will undermine the Northern Ireland Peace Process from a fairly reputable source.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/theresa-may-threat-withdraw-european-convention-would-mean-%E2%80%98ripping-good-friday

Anything I've heard emanating from British Politicians, be they Tory or Labour is lies.

Not all DUP voters voted leave. Although that was the Party stance, the DUP did say it's voters should feel free to vote as they wish. Very kind of them.

If you didn't make it up them provide the evidence. It would be an incredible thing to say, so there most be something you can link to.

I've already read the amnesty report. May wouldn't get very far with pulling out of ECHR.

Right, so you point me to the only thing you've heard a Tory mention about NI, and now you're telling me that whatever they say is all lies anyway. Just so you can wriggle out of an argument.

You're a naughty man, Sin é.

The fact that she wants to pull out of ECHT says that Northern Ireland is towards the bottom of her priorities. The only thing I've heard from Villiers is that there won't be a Border between the RoI & NI.

It was a very dishonest campaign from all sides and I wouldn't take seriously any promises made by any of them about anything. They are all self-serving. Since the Brexit referendum, the only mention I have heard from the Tories to do with Northern Ireland is to do with introducing legislation for same sex marriage. Michael Gove, a senior member of the Tory Party wrote:

irish times wrote:In The Price of Peace, his long pamphlet for the right-wing Centre for Policy Studies, published in 2000, Gove characterised the entire peace process as nothing more than a capitulation to the IRA. He insisted that the cause of the Troubles was British lack of firmness in facing down demands for a united Ireland and argued that, if only British governments had taken a harder line, the IRA would have become discouraged and given up. This is idiocy but, like Gove’s Brexit theorems, dangerous idiocy.

Now, if you can produce something different which was said about NI since Brexit, I'll be pleased to read it.

Sin é, I don't trust any politician. None. The only time I have voted in years was my vote for Remain. Sick of the lies, and sick of conflict politics from the top 4 in Northern Ireland.

You still haven't given my anything on May. I already know what Gove said. That's why I said he's a dangerous man. Not just for Northern Ireland, but for all of the UK.

I can't give you anything since Brexit. It was only a week ago!

Gove is a senior and influential member of the Tories, so likely to express the general thinking in NI. They will only take an interest in NI if they need NI MP support in Westminster. May, by her actions indicates that she does not give a Poopie what happens in Northern Ireland.

Well, I've been keeping a good eye on it, and not a word about what Brexit will do to Northern Ireland.

Gove isn't very well liked in the Tory Party. Especially after stabbing Boris in the back. No member will trust him. He won't be an influential voice relating to NI.

I don't know how May views NI, but neither do you. You read too much into the ECHR thing, methinks. The folk in NI have never had much of a say in Westminster anyway.

Not a word about what Brexit is going to do about anything, never mind NI.

by Guest Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:50 pm

Notch wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Notch wrote:Arlene Foster will burn Northern Ireland to the ground to keep control over it. Happily. The less secure voters jobs are the angrier voters here will get. The more angry voters are the safer the extremist ends of Unionists and Nationalists are in their own jobs.

And the DUP didn't like the EU telling them they were legally obliged to support legislation that protects minority languages and cultures, nor do they like that Enda Kenny accepted the result of the Equal Marriage Referendum in Ireland.

Enda Kenny is just like Nicola Sturgeon in their eyes i.e. Someone who has supported the rights of immigrants, homosexuals and Catholics to enjoy equal status under the law.

Arlene Foster doesn't have control of it.

Maybe not, but she's First Minister and the DUP are going nowhere.

Northern Ireland has been doing really well moving away from the Troubles, and looking to have a much brighter future. That has been in spite of the sometimes farce that is Stormont. All the Party's do good for the Province, but the top 4 are still stuck in the past and still engage in conflict politics, and the good could be better. It's what they know, and one side is as bad as the other.

The DUP, and the rest, may appear to be going nowhere, but they are. Just very slowly. Northern Ireland is moving forward in spite of them.

by Pot Hale Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:21 pm

The full title of the Conservative party in the UK is the Conservative and Unionist party. That's where their roots lie.

Foster is simply doing what any sensible senior politician would do in these circumstances. Mind her own backyard first.

Does anyone really expect the First Minister of the Stormont Executive, the leader of the major unionist party, to even acknowledge publicly that the Irish government may get involved in helping Northern Ireland? Not a chance. Not when the majority of her constituents likely voted to Leave, and not whilst Border polls or anything smelling remotely of independence/reunification is in the air.

NI is doing this on its own, thank you very much and Enda Kenny may get a look in afterwards if it suits Arlene Foster and her party - as far as the general public is concerned.

Pragmatically, Foster may accept some invisible support from the ROI state executive but only on the basis that nothing or little as possible is said about it publicly, and if it leaks then ideally it can be painted as something that ROI wants really and nothing to do with NI.

The notion that Enda/Fine Gael saved NI's bacon on Brexit is just not going to happen.

by SecretFly Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:25 pm

What about the tunnels???!!!

Who'll speak up for their rights?

by Guest Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:40 pm

SecretFly wrote:What about the tunnels???!!!

Who'll speak up for their rights?

Tunnels have all sorts of uses. If they stick a border up we can build our own and charge toll Cool

by Sin é Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:43 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
No she doesn't she represents the DUP and thats all she cares about. They are the ones who voted to leave the EU.

No I didn't make it up. The Tories couldn't give two feics about Northern Ireland and never have.

This is how Mrs May will undermine the Northern Ireland Peace Process from a fairly reputable source.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/theresa-may-threat-withdraw-european-convention-would-mean-%E2%80%98ripping-good-friday

Anything I've heard emanating from British Politicians, be they Tory or Labour is lies.

Not all DUP voters voted leave. Although that was the Party stance, the DUP did say it's voters should feel free to vote as they wish. Very kind of them.

If you didn't make it up them provide the evidence. It would be an incredible thing to say, so there most be something you can link to.

I've already read the amnesty report. May wouldn't get very far with pulling out of ECHR.

Right, so you point me to the only thing you've heard a Tory mention about NI, and now you're telling me that whatever they say is all lies anyway. Just so you can wriggle out of an argument.

You're a naughty man, Sin é.

The fact that she wants to pull out of ECHT says that Northern Ireland is towards the bottom of her priorities. The only thing I've heard from Villiers is that there won't be a Border between the RoI & NI.

It was a very dishonest campaign from all sides and I wouldn't take seriously any promises made by any of them about anything. They are all self-serving. Since the Brexit referendum, the only mention I have heard from the Tories to do with Northern Ireland is to do with introducing legislation for same sex marriage. Michael Gove, a senior member of the Tory Party wrote:

irish times wrote:In The Price of Peace, his long pamphlet for the right-wing Centre for Policy Studies, published in 2000, Gove characterised the entire peace process as nothing more than a capitulation to the IRA. He insisted that the cause of the Troubles was British lack of firmness in facing down demands for a united Ireland and argued that, if only British governments had taken a harder line, the IRA would have become discouraged and given up. This is idiocy but, like Gove’s Brexit theorems, dangerous idiocy.

Now, if you can produce something different which was said about NI since Brexit, I'll be pleased to read it.

Sin é, I don't trust any politician. None. The only time I have voted in years was my vote for Remain. Sick of the lies, and sick of conflict politics from the top 4 in Northern Ireland.

You still haven't given my anything on May. I already know what Gove said. That's why I said he's a dangerous man. Not just for Northern Ireland, but for all of the UK.

I can't give you anything since Brexit. It was only a week ago!

Gove is a senior and influential member of the Tories, so likely to express the general thinking in NI. They will only take an interest in NI if they need NI MP support in Westminster. May, by her actions indicates that she does not give a Poopie what happens in Northern Ireland.

Well, I've been keeping a good eye on it, and not a word about what Brexit will do to Northern Ireland.

Gove isn't very well liked in the Tory Party. Especially after stabbing Boris in the back. No member will trust him. He won't be an influential voice relating to NI.

I don't know how May views NI, but neither do you. You read too much into the ECHR thing, methinks. The folk in NI have never had much of a say in Westminster anyway.

Not a word about what Brexit is going to do about anything, never mind NI.

For someone who isn't well liked, he sure as hell is very influential.

Last week after Brexit, a the Mayor of Newry was interviewed on RTE about how he thought Brexit would affect Trade between Northern Ireland and Republic. He said that Villiers and Boris had assured him that it wouldn't make any difference - there wouldn't be a Border. Now whether they are clueless or the intention is to put controls between the island of Ireland and the UK or that they were hoping that the UK would remain in the EU, no one knows. Whatever about Boris being a bit thick, I would have thought Villiers would have been a bit more clued in.

by LeinsterFan4life Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:43 pm

SecretFly wrote:Foster was right to tell Kenny to butt out. Kenny struggles to reflect the views of his own Nation and then decides he's going to lead from the front for NI? The arrogance of Head Office held for much too long - plus a dose of Delusions of Grandeur in European terms.

Kenny barks at Merkel. Merkel pats him on the head and offers him a treat. Kenny wolfs down the little treat and licks Merkel's feet. That's been the on-going story of our own Great Leader to date.

The funny thing is there is literally a picture of this happening. Kenny spends more time on talking on American news stations than here. In fact I can't remember the last time I've seen an interview with him over here...thankfully.

by Guest Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:47 pm

He isn't very liked, Sin é, and whatever influence he had will be severely dented once he not only put the knife in Cameron, but then Boris. That and the fact that it appears it's his wife pulling the strings.

by SecretFly Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:51 pm

Sin é wrote:

Last week after Brexit, a the Mayor of Newry was interviewed on RTE about how he thought Brexit would affect Trade between Northern Ireland and Republic. He said that Villiers and Boris had assured him that it wouldn't make any difference - there wouldn't be a Border. Now whether they are clueless or the intention is to put controls between the island of Ireland and the UK or that they were hoping that the UK would remain in the EU, no one knows. Whatever about Boris being a bit thick, I would have thought Villiers would have been a bit more clued in.

Villiers was clued in. She was a Leave campaigner - of course she's going to flower out the fruits of Leave to make it smell nice to everyone. That's her job as a politician - spin a story that sounds nice. They were all at it.

by Pot Hale Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:51 pm

SecretFly wrote:What about the tunnels???!!!

Who'll speak up for their rights?

Funnels? You mean the funnel snail?

I'm afraid EU Special Areas of Conservation are now going out the window. There'll be a countrywide Brexit pogrom on the hedgerows and heathlands of the countryside, with nationalist nature-lovers individually screening every species to see if it speaks the English language and can hum a few bars of GTSQ. If they can't, then they get their slithering/hopping/flying orders.

Hares and bunnies with questionable whiskers will be told to 'op it' in no uncertain terms; all manner of snails and slugs and worms will be turned back at the re-christened Chanel Tunel, poodles will be banned, and only bulldogs, blackbirds and cheery redbreast robins will populate the land.

Rights? They'll be lucky to survive.

If only George Orwell were still around.

by SecretFly Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:57 pm

Tunnels! Tunnels! Not funnel web spiders (foreign scum by the way and if anybody finds one they should deport them onto the first dingy to Australia)

Tunnels - They're well worn at this stage Whistle

They'll be getting revamped now of course for the human trafficking profits that industrious border folks hope to make in the brand new world of Brexit.

by Sin é Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:04 pm

Pot Hale wrote:The full title of the Conservative party in the UK is the Conservative and Unionist party. That's where their roots lie.

If the Tories were interested in Northern Ireland they would have a part on the ground there, like they used to have in Scotland. Their origins go back to the 1801 Act of Union - when there was no such place as Northern Ireland.

Foster is simply doing what any sensible senior politician would do in these circumstances. Mind her own backyard first.

Thats the worrying thing about the Tories. They will take no interest in NI (or Wales or the North of England), so I'd be worried about that.

Does anyone really expect the First Minister of the Stormont Executive, the leader of the major unionist party, to even acknowledge publicly that the Irish government may get involved in helping Northern Ireland? Not a chance. Not when the majority of her constituents likely voted to Leave, and not whilst Border polls or anything smelling remotely of independence/reunification is in the air.

I would have thought they would seek to protect the one thing which seems to be keeping most people fairly happy in Northern Ireland - the EU. But unfortunately, there is no hope for them and that is why I'd be worried about the situation.

NI is doing this on its own, thank you very much and Enda Kenny may get a look in afterwards if it suits Arlene Foster and her party - as far as the general public is concerned.

Its really sad though that the politics of Northern Ireland cannot progress beyond this.

Pragmatically, Foster may accept some invisible support from the ROI state executive but only on the basis that nothing or little as possible is said about it publicly, and if it leaks then ideally it can be painted as something that ROI wants really and nothing to do with NI

The notion that Enda/Fine Gael saved NI's bacon on Brexit is just not going to happen.

I'd say she is too thick and there is nothing the ROI will be able to do for her.

Ah well, it seems plenty of people are clued in enough to get Irish passports now which will give them freedom of movement in the EU anyway.

by Sin é Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:08 pm

Munchkin wrote:He isn't very liked, Sin é, and whatever influence he had will be severely dented once he not only put the knife in Cameron, but then Boris. That and the fact that it appears it's his wife pulling the strings.

I don't think Boris is that well liked in the Tories. After all, he is the one who has caused all this trouble and all from personal ambition.

by Sin é Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:11 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Foster was right to tell Kenny to butt out. Kenny struggles to reflect the views of his own Nation and then decides he's going to lead from the front for NI? The arrogance of Head Office held for much too long - plus a dose of Delusions of Grandeur in European terms.

Kenny barks at Merkel. Merkel pats him on the head and offers him a treat. Kenny wolfs down the little treat and licks Merkel's feet. That's been the on-going story of our own Great Leader to date.
The funny thing is there is literally a picture of this happening. Kenny spends more time on talking on American news stations than here. In fact I can't remember the last time I've seen an interview with him over here...thankfully.

The top export destinations of Ireland are:
United States ($28.5B),
the United Kingdom ($19.2B),
Belgium-Luxembourg ($18.2B),
Germany ($10.8B) and
France ($7.98B).

He can talk all he likes if that means they realise Ireland is still in the EU and open for business.

by SecretFly Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:16 pm

Sin é wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:The full title of the Conservative party in the UK is the Conservative and Unionist party. That's where their roots lie.

If the Tories were interested in Northern Ireland they would have a part on the ground there, like they used to have in Scotland. Their origins go back to the 1801 Act of Union - when there was no such place as Northern Ireland.

The Tory origins go back much further than that. And how ironic that the very name 'Tory' as used to denote them came from an Irish word 'tóraidhe' - outlaw/robber

by LeinsterFan4life Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:19 pm

Sin é wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Foster was right to tell Kenny to butt out. Kenny struggles to reflect the views of his own Nation and then decides he's going to lead from the front for NI? The arrogance of Head Office held for much too long - plus a dose of Delusions of Grandeur in European terms.

Kenny barks at Merkel. Merkel pats him on the head and offers him a treat. Kenny wolfs down the little treat and licks Merkel's feet. That's been the on-going story of our own Great Leader to date.
The funny thing is there is literally a picture of this happening. Kenny spends more time on talking on American news stations than here. In fact I can't remember the last time I've seen an interview with him over here...thankfully.

The top export destinations of Ireland are:
United States ($28.5B),
the United Kingdom ($19.2B),
Belgium-Luxembourg ($18.2B),
Germany ($10.8B) and
France ($7.98B).

He can talk all he likes if that means they realise Ireland is still in the EU and open for business.

I think they would all rather not have to hear him speak. Don't worry our position is safe in the EU with Kenny at the helm,he's nothing more than a deluded moron who the IMF and ECB can easily have their way with. He's the perfect puppet on strings for them.

by SecretFly Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:20 pm

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:He isn't very liked, Sin é, and whatever influence he had will be severely dented once he not only put the knife in Cameron, but then Boris. That and the fact that it appears it's his wife pulling the strings.

I don't think Boris is that well liked in the Tories. After all, he is the one who has caused all this trouble and all from personal ambition.

Boris isn't liked by Tories because he's liked by the people. We've seen how much the 'champions of the people' are despised by the Parties they're attached to. So Boris is ridiculed to keep him from top job. Churchill too was ridiculed in his pre-Churchill time... Wink

by Guest Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:21 pm

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:He isn't very liked, Sin é, and whatever influence he had will be severely dented once he not only put the knife in Cameron, but then Boris. That and the fact that it appears it's his wife pulling the strings.

I don't think Boris is that well liked in the Tories. After all, he is the one who has caused all this trouble and all from personal ambition.

How could anyone not like Boris? I think he's liked ok, although maybe not be Cameron. Gove really isn't liked by anyone. Not even his pet dog.

by SecretFly Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:24 pm

Gove tells his dog that he loves it every morning before leaving for work... Could that dog talk, it might have phoned Boris in time to warn him that his Master is a compulsive liar.

by Guest Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:33 pm

SecretFly wrote:Gove tells his dog that he loves it every morning before leaving for work... Could that dog talk, it might have phoned Boris in time to warn him that his Master is a compulsive liar.

If only dogs could suddenly talk. Imagine the chaos? devil

by Sin é Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:07 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Sin é wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Foster was right to tell Kenny to butt out. Kenny struggles to reflect the views of his own Nation and then decides he's going to lead from the front for NI? The arrogance of Head Office held for much too long - plus a dose of Delusions of Grandeur in European terms.

Kenny barks at Merkel. Merkel pats him on the head and offers him a treat. Kenny wolfs down the little treat and licks Merkel's feet. That's been the on-going story of our own Great Leader to date.
The funny thing is there is literally a picture of this happening. Kenny spends more time on talking on American news stations than here. In fact I can't remember the last time I've seen an interview with him over here...thankfully.

The top export destinations of Ireland are:
United States ($28.5B),
the United Kingdom ($19.2B),
Belgium-Luxembourg ($18.2B),
Germany ($10.8B) and
France ($7.98B).

He can talk all he likes if that means they realise Ireland is still in the EU and open for business.
I think they would all rather not have to hear him speak. Don't worry our position is safe in the EU with Kenny at the helm,he's nothing more than a deluded moron who the IMF and ECB can easily have their way with. He's the perfect puppet on strings for them.

You are confusing him with the 2 Brians (Cowan & Lenihan RIP).

Look, I'm no fan of Enda Kenny, but he isn't the worst - or maybe you would prefer we had Bertie back?

by doctor_grey Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:37 am

Notch,
That was an extraordinary post the other day. I think you have conveyed how you feel in a very compelling way. But, up front, I have to apologise if I offended in any way.

However, I have to disagree with your use of the term 'English', at least as it applies to me using code words for anything. I do have to admit, at first read, I found your comment a touch patronizing. But as I am sure you agree, we have agreed and disagreed in the past on various issues, and, at least from my point of view, there was no lack of respect or courtesy. So, as I consider you one of the good guys, I am actually glad you felt comfortable sharing something that was obviously emotional.

I was raised mostly outside UK, with both my parents in an arm of government not closely associated with the elite and, in fact, with many people from all parts of Britain. Raised away from most of the national parochial things, I do view myself as a Brit, a citizen of UK first and foremost, and English a distant second. Except for the Rugby. And, as a Brit, I always support our four nations first. Except for a few weeks in February and March.

I admit to be surprised you believe my comment that I believe we are not truly European to be offensive. One of the benefits of the EU is the ability to travel across the continent virtually at will. And from all my travels, I simply don’t see the special close connection with us in any country, not nearly the way I see amongst us fractious people in our islands. This has nothing to do with being English. And it doesn't mean we shouldn't be connected with them.

I came home and voted Remain because I believe it is better for us and the European Union to be able to benefit from the free trade, generally standard principles of law, and common approach to many of the challenges facing the world. I believe we can be a more positive influence in the world from within than without. And as I said, the Leave people offered nothing.

As a final point regarding many of the politicians at the centre of all this who have raised tensions and created an impasse from hell: They can all go and fornicate with dead barnyard animals.

by LeinsterFan4life Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:46 am

Sin é wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Sin é wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Foster was right to tell Kenny to butt out. Kenny struggles to reflect the views of his own Nation and then decides he's going to lead from the front for NI? The arrogance of Head Office held for much too long - plus a dose of Delusions of Grandeur in European terms.

Kenny barks at Merkel. Merkel pats him on the head and offers him a treat. Kenny wolfs down the little treat and licks Merkel's feet. That's been the on-going story of our own Great Leader to date.
The funny thing is there is literally a picture of this happening. Kenny spends more time on talking on American news stations than here. In fact I can't remember the last time I've seen an interview with him over here...thankfully.

The top export destinations of Ireland are:
United States ($28.5B),
the United Kingdom ($19.2B),
Belgium-Luxembourg ($18.2B),
Germany ($10.8B) and
France ($7.98B).

He can talk all he likes if that means they realise Ireland is still in the EU and open for business.
I think they would all rather not have to hear him speak. Don't worry our position is safe in the EU with Kenny at the helm,he's nothing more than a deluded moron who the IMF and ECB can easily have their way with. He's the perfect puppet on strings for them.

You are confusing him with the 2 Brians (Cowan & Lenihan RIP).

Look, I'm no fan of Enda Kenny, but he isn't the worst - or maybe you would prefer we had Bertie back?

Nice jokes there Sin.In terms of who I would rather...It doesn't matter because none of them make any major decisions anyway. They are only a face for people to blame.

by Pot Hale Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:10 am

doctor_grey wrote:Notch,
That was an extraordinary post the other day. I think you have conveyed how you feel in a very compelling way. But, up front, I have to apologise if I offended in any way.

However, I have to disagree with your use of the term 'English', at least as it applies to me using code words for anything. I do have to admit, at first read, I found your comment a touch patronizing. But as I am sure you agree, we have agreed and disagreed in the past on various issues, and, at least from my point of view, there was no lack of respect or courtesy. So, as I consider you one of the good guys, I am actually glad you felt comfortable sharing something that was obviously emotional.

I was raised mostly outside UK, with both my parents in an arm of government not closely associated with the elite and, in fact, with many people from all parts of Britain. Raised away from most of the national parochial things, I do view myself as a Brit, a citizen of UK first and foremost, and English a distant second. Except for the Rugby. And, as a Brit, I always support our four nations first. Except for a few weeks in February and March.

I admit to be surprised you believe my comment that I believe we are not truly European to be offensive. One of the benefits of the EU is the ability to travel across the continent virtually at will. And from all my travels, I simply don’t see the special close connection with us in any country, not nearly the way I see amongst us fractious people in our islands. This has nothing to do with being English. And it doesn't mean we shouldn't be connected with them.

I came home and voted Remain because I believe it is better for us and the European Union to be able to benefit from the free trade, generally standard principles of law, and common approach to many of the challenges facing the world. I believe we can be a more positive influence in the world from within than without. And as I said, the Leave people offered nothing.

As a final point regarding many of the politicians at the centre of all this who have raised tensions and created an impasse from hell: They can all go and fornicate with dead barnyard animals.

I'm curious Doc, as a Brit, who do you see as "our four nations"? Is it all of Ireland or Northern Ireland only? Or does it change depending on the circumstances?

by Sin é Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:19 am

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:The full title of the Conservative party in the UK is the Conservative and Unionist party. That's where their roots lie.

If the Tories were interested in Northern Ireland they would have a part on the ground there, like they used to have in Scotland. Their origins go back to the 1801 Act of Union - when there was no such place as Northern Ireland.

The Tory origins go back much further than that. And how ironic that the very name 'Tory' as used to denote them came from an Irish word 'tóraidhe' - outlaw/robber

The Conservatives as we know them today were formed in 1834, after the Act of Union.

Anyway, the point is that its the Scottish Union that the Conservatives refer to and

This is a quote from May which will put Munchin in no doubt as to what she thinks about Northern Ireland.

“I do not want the European Union to cause the destruction of an older and much more precious union, the union between England and Scotland,” she said.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/25/uk-must-leave-european-convention-on-human-rights-theresa-may-eu-referendum

by Pot Hale Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:27 am

Sin é wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:The full title of the Conservative party in the UK is the Conservative and Unionist party. That's where their roots lie.

If the Tories were interested in Northern Ireland they would have a part on the ground there, like they used to have in Scotland. Their origins go back to the 1801 Act of Union - when there was no such place as Northern Ireland.

Not sure if you're aware of Cameron's/Tories moves on this earlier this year - http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14320263.Tories_apply_to_become____Conservative_and_Unionist_party____across_Britain/

Foster is simply doing what any sensible senior politician would do in these circumstances. Mind her own backyard first.

Thats the worrying thing about the Tories. They will take no interest in NI (or Wales or the North of England), so I'd be worried about that.

My point is that Foster is the First Minister of her country - she leads a party that is diametrically opposed to the aims of the government and various parties in the south. She's not going to give any public credence to getting support from the ROI - she'd be politically censured by her own party and constituents if she did so. Classic FG political blunder in allowing that question to be raised in the manner it was. The answer should have been sorted out in advance so that neither was caught unprepared.

Does anyone really expect the First Minister of the Stormont Executive, the leader of the major unionist party, to even acknowledge publicly that the Irish government may get involved in helping Northern Ireland? Not a chance. Not when the majority of her constituents likely voted to Leave, and not whilst Border polls or anything smelling remotely of independence/reunification is in the air.

I would have thought they would seek to protect the one thing which seems to be keeping most people fairly happy in Northern Ireland - the EU. But unfortunately, there is no hope for them and that is why I'd be worried about the situation.

"Most people"? What percentage of the electorate - particularly unionist voters - voted to remain in the EU? She has a difficult line to tread.

NI is doing this on its own, thank you very much and Enda Kenny may get a look in afterwards if it suits Arlene Foster and her party - as far as the general public is concerned.

Its really sad though that the politics of Northern Ireland cannot progress beyond this.

No it's called politics. Realpolitik, if you prefer. I wouldn't have expected anything less from Arlene Foster.

Pragmatically, Foster may accept some invisible support from the ROI state executive but only on the basis that nothing or little as possible is said about it publicly, and if it leaks then ideally it can be painted as something that ROI wants really and nothing to do with NI

The notion that Enda/Fine Gael saved NI's bacon on Brexit is just not going to happen.

I'd say she is too thick and there is nothing the ROI will be able to do for her.

Eh, right. Too thick? Au contraire, she's as canny as they come.

by Pot Hale Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:41 am

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:The full title of the Conservative party in the UK is the Conservative and Unionist party. That's where their roots lie.

If the Tories were interested in Northern Ireland they would have a part on the ground there, like they used to have in Scotland. Their origins go back to the 1801 Act of Union - when there was no such place as Northern Ireland.

The Tory origins go back much further than that. And how ironic that the very name 'Tory' as used to denote them came from an Irish word 'tóraidhe' - outlaw/robber

The Conservatives as we know them today were formed in 1834, after the Act of Union.

Anyway, the point is that its the Scottish Union that the Conservatives refer to and

Eh, not quite. In Northern Ireland, the party name is already registered with the Commission as the Conservative and Unionist Party. The Irish Unionist Alliance formed in 1891 merged anti-Home Rule Unionists into one political movement. Its MPs took the Conservative whip at Westminster, and in essence formed the Irish wing of the party until 1922.

At one point, the Conservative & Unionist party had a formal alliance with the UUP, a fact regularly trotted out by Trimble and others during their pomp, in seeking to buttress their political fortunes and fortress.

by Guest Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:47 am

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:The full title of the Conservative party in the UK is the Conservative and Unionist party. That's where their roots lie.

If the Tories were interested in Northern Ireland they would have a part on the ground there, like they used to have in Scotland. Their origins go back to the 1801 Act of Union - when there was no such place as Northern Ireland.

The Tory origins go back much further than that. And how ironic that the very name 'Tory' as used to denote them came from an Irish word 'tóraidhe' - outlaw/robber

The Conservatives as we know them today were formed in 1834, after the Act of Union.

Anyway, the point is that its the Scottish Union that the Conservatives refer to and

This is a quote from May which will put Munchin in no doubt as to what she thinks about Northern Ireland.

“I do not want the European Union to cause the destruction of an older and much more precious union, the union between England and Scotland,” she said.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/25/uk-must-leave-european-convention-on-human-rights-theresa-may-eu-referendum

Come on, Sin é, the context of that sentence is within the threat of the UK leaving the EU, and the threat of a 2nd Scottish referendum should that happen. May had no need to mention NI or Wales.

Also, in reading that article you will note the level of opposition to May wanting to leave ECHR. Plenty of opposition from within her own Party, and Labour. Very few would want the UK to withdraw from ECHR, but there are proposals for reform of ECHR, including a British bill of human rights, whilst remaining within the convention.

It's just May bitching because ECHR delayed the extradition of Hamza. I understand that frustration. I agree that ECHR were wrong to put the UK in a bind, but reform is the way forward, not this stroppy threat to leave. Personally I think it's no more than playing hardball negotiations to get their way. Leaving ECHR won't happen.

by **Notch** Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:07 am

doctor_grey wrote:Notch,
That was an extraordinary post the other day. I think you have conveyed how you feel in a very compelling way. But, up front, I have to apologise if I offended in any way.

...

However, I have to disagree with your use of the term 'English', at least as it applies to me using code words for anything. I do have to admit, at first read, I found your comment a touch patronizing. But as I am sure you agree, we have agreed and disagreed in the past on various issues, and, at least from my point of view, there was no lack of respect or courtesy. So, as I consider you one of the good guys, I am actually glad you felt comfortable sharing something that was obviously emotional.

I was raised mostly outside UK, with both my parents in an arm of government not closely associated with the elite and, in fact, with many people from all parts of Britain. Raised away from most of the national parochial things, I do view myself as a Brit, a citizen of UK first and foremost, and English a distant second. Except for the Rugby. And, as a Brit, I always support our four nations first. Except for a few weeks in February and March.

Doc Grey, thank you so much for your courteous and intelligent reply! I too grew up as an immigrant in another country after moving at a young age. Even though Northern Ireland and Scotland are the two closest nations in Europe too each other culturally and politically and even practically geographically (I mean, you can see Scotland from Northern Ireland) it was obvious when I moved there and grew up there by the way I was treated that we in the UK are a distinct family of nations with a shared culture, but essentially we are different from each other in profound and meaningful ways. If the UK is to work that difference must be respected on a constitutional level. In my mental schema of the world we are a family of nations, not an individual nation, and each nation deserves an equal say in the running of the UK. Raised away from the parochialism of Northern Ireland I'm not truly Northern Irish, but growing up in a proto-Nationalist Scotland I learned that nationalism can be pluralistic, outward looking and respecting of difference.

Of all the Nations in the EU, I have spent less time in England than France, Scotland and Ireland. I have spent about the same amount of time in Holland as I have in England, with Catalonia not far behind. Indeed that is the crux of it. I feel an affinity to Scotland, and lived there for nine years, but almost never visited England in that time. I feel an affinity for Catalonia and love Barcelona as a city, yet I have never visited Castile or the Basque Country I feel no special bond to England, indeed I feel alienated by England as they control our politics on a level that the EU never could. A grievous situation for anyone who views England as just one constituent nation in a local family of British nations and a larger family of European Nations.

Nationality is an imaginary concept. Borders are an imaginary concept. Nations are essentially abstract groups of people that we imagine share some essential characteristics because we are told this via print media and political communities. Nationalism is dangerous, and I myself admit that as an avowed Nationalist. Nationalism can be pluralistic and outward looking however, when nations agree to respect each others views and work together. The EU represented a clumsy, imperfect, flawed move towards that goal. This is summed up in the motto of the European Union; "United in Diversity".

Now that our dream of a Federal European Superstate which respects us and supersedes the influence of England on our politics is dead... A federal UK structured along the lines of the EU could work; I have long desired this.

I would love to have an English Parliament, Scottish Parliament, Welsh Parliament, Northern Irish Parliament- all subordinate to a fully elected British Senate which serves a function similar to the EU Parliament in Brussels. It would remove the need for the House of Lords, but most crucially each of the four nations of the UK could have the right to veto any policy that is only enacted in the interests of the largest, most powerful of those nations.

A non-federal UK will not work. Those who make evolution impossible, make revolution inevitable. When David Cameron reneged on his 'Vow' to the Scottish people he doused the UK in paraffin and oil. When he set the referendum for the EU he set that paraffin aflame. We now fundamentally rewrite the constitution of the UK- quickly- or it burns to the ground.

I believe David Cameron will be remembered as the worst English- er, I mean British! The worst British Prime Minister since Neville Chamberlain. The Scottish referendum result was his equivalent of 'Peace In Our Time'. A hollow victory that won't change the inevitable course of history.

Thanks again for such a comprehensive reply Hug

by **Notch** Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:11 am

Pot Hale wrote:Eh, right. Too thick? Au contraire, she's as canny as they come.

Arlene Foster is no Peter Robinson or Sammy Wilson. She's sharp. And very, very frightening.

Whilst most of the DUP pursue discriminatory politics due to a stubborn adherence to tradition and ignorance, she pursues them for personal advantage. In this sense she is really more of Tory than a Unionist.

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