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Andre Ward (Contains Spoilers)

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Post by Mr Bounce on Sun 07 Aug 2016, 11:16 am

First topic message reminder :

http://www.fightnews.com/Boxing/ward-dominates-brand-dull-fight-350087

Well that's no surprise that he won. I didn't watch it - I was sleeping. However, did he carry Brand so he could get some rounds in against an unheralded fighter from the division down that he probably should have stopped? It's almost inconceivable that the cards would not be a total shut out. However, is Ward rusty? Are his best years behind him? Surely he should have stopped Brand?

One thing we do know for sure is that despite his incredible skills, Andre will send most audiences into a coma. The man is DULL. However, let's not forget that Kovalev too had an indifferent night in his previous fight. Did they both go through the motions, knowing that the big event awaits them in November? Previous history has shown that the boxer generally comes undone against the puncher (Calzaghe vs Lacy springs to mind here, as does Rigo vs Donaire). However, it does only take one punch (see Tyson-Spinks or Jackson-Graham) and Kovalev is no one-dimensional slugger, as many have found out to their cost.

Their upcoming fight is still fascinating. Does Ward slip, spoil and counterpunch to a UD? Does Kovalev land a hail mary on Ward to take his "0"? All I can hope for is something for more worthwhile than the dross that both have served up recently. I'm still going with a late KO for Kovalev, but that's by no means certain.

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Post by catchweight on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 1:32 pm

The Super 6 was loaded in Wards favour. He was the only fighter that didnt travel. In fact I think he only fought outside California once it and tried to claim because he was traveling to the other side of the U.S it equated as a neutral venue.

After the Super 6 he sidelined his own career suing his promoter for not doing a good enough job with him. This is despite getting him entry into the Super 6 and securing him home advantage in every single fight.

Clearly a good fighter, but difficult to warm to a guy who has to have the deck stacked in his favour to make a fight happen while publically pretending this isnt the case behind some whispery boxing David Brentisms.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 1:48 pm

He outclassed his opposition...

A fight is a fight..

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Post by catchweight on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 2:01 pm

Not neccessarily. Home advantage and home comforts are a big deal in sport. He would, on the balance of proablity, win against those guys fighting away from home. But boxers like Kessler, Froch, Abraham etc have large partisan followings so having to travel latge distancs and fight in hostile atmospheres with judges potentially being swayed by home support and opponents being buoyed by home crowds should not be dismissed. At the very least he should have had to travel the same as all his opponents did to make for a balanced competition. Froch (who I think is an arch bollix) had 1 fight at home (where it coud be argued that home advantage made all the difference). Ward had every fight at home.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 2:06 pm

Leonard never left North America...

Some of his top wins...

Duran (Pan) ...New Orleans and Vegas..
Benitez (PR)...Las Vegas
Kalule (UGA)...Detroit..
Lalonde (Can)...Las Vegas..

Certainly had the Vegas crowd behind him against Hagler and Tommy..

Could say those fights were tilted in his favor..

Chuck in Boy green in Maryland...

It's just trying to find crap to throw at a fighter you don't like..

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Post by catchweight on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 2:17 pm

He fought and lost to Duran in Montreal before in turning the tables in the U.S. Thanks for the example.

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Post by milkyboy on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 2:20 pm

Ward is an arrogant jerk in my opinion. Wasted prime years of his career in disputes.

Ultimately, while home advantage is true in pretty much all sports, and the judging bias potential is an added factor in boxing... But it only goes so far.

The super 6 stats are somewhat misleading... The guys that lost away from home largely fought their best opposition away from home.

Ward had it easier, from a travel perspective, but really was there any doubt who the better fighter was in his fights?

Carl, the martini man froch is often held up as a guy who's fight anyone, but most were laid on a platter in the super 6 for him... After that the fights were plain business... Bute was the next available champion and Kessler gave a chance for redemption and a shed load of cash. Ward had won the super 6, he didn't have a career to get back on track.

You can make a narrative to pop at most fighters if you wish. It's a results business and whatever you think of him, ward's resume is the best answer to the detractors.

Hopefully these shenanigans are just the usual contract willy waving and the fight happens. It may not be a great spectacle but it's a fascinating clash of styles between two top fighters.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 2:20 pm

I don't think Leonard handpicking the site of his Olympic triumph was any benefit to Duran whatsoever.

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Post by catchweight on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 2:31 pm

I cant see anyone arguing that Ward was not the best in the Super 6 or isnt a talented boxer?

He was the only boxer in the Super 6 that didnt travel. The home and away stats dont really apply to him.

The other home and away stats that applied to the rest of the competitiors would indicate that it can play a factor which shouldnt be easily dismissed. (Did any of the original 6 entrants actually lose a home fight?) Ward was immune (unfairly) from these factors. These fights become much tougher away from home.


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 2:32 pm

It's only a results orientated business if posters like the fighter...

It seems..

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 2:57 pm

Truss says Kovalev and Golovkin haven't fought anyone oh yeah now I remember Kovalev ducked Stevenson and Golovkin ducked Canelo picard

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Post by milkyboy on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 3:26 pm

catchweight wrote:I cant see anyone arguing that Ward was not the best in the Super 6 or isnt a talented boxer?

He was the only boxer in the Super 6 that didnt travel. The home and away stats dont really apply to him.

The other home and away stats that applied to the rest of the competitiors would indicate that it can play a factor which shouldnt be easily dismissed. (Did any of the original 6 entrants actually lose a home fight?) Ward was immune (unfairly) from these factors. These fights become much tougher away from home.


And you can't see me arguing that fighting at home isn't an advantage...all fighters would fight at home given the chance. Here it's being to used to cheapen ward's achievements. What it is is a minor caveat. We're not talking Sven Ottke with the cards filled in before the fight.

It's a nice little statistical anomaly of how the draw panned out... But fighters do occasionally pull out a wina way from home. So really you have to look at the fights and say, what results do you think would have been different had the venues been flipped.

Realistically, the only fight I can think of where there's a good argument it made a clear difference to the result was Froch Dirrell. You can look at the Froch Kessler fights and say home advantage swung it, but most felt Kessler had lost a step by their return. Any others?

Ultimately if you accept that ward was the best fighter, would probably have won the fights away from home, the arguments is a bit pointless really. Stick an asterisk against it... Do the same for every other fighter who ever won a fight at home and move on.

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Post by Nico the gman on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 3:28 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He outclassed his opposition...

A fight is a fight..
Exactly Truss, could have fought the Super 6 on Mars and the result would still have been the same.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 3:36 pm

Froch in Nottingham wasn't a fight Ward was prepared to entertain so something tells me that would be no foregone conclusion

No question home advantage played a big part in the Super Six it's there for all to see

Ward didn't even have to fight Dirrell something which was probably prearranged before the tournament started. But even if Ward would beat them all away it was disgustingly unfair that the best fighter in the competition had all his fights at home. Bit of a joke in hindsight

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 3:43 pm

So now Kessler had lost a step from his first fight with Froch oh dear milky your hatred of Froch knows no bounds

How about Froch just proved himself to be the more durable fighter over the two encounters ?

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 3:45 pm

What's there for all to see is that Ward won the super six comfortably and during none of his fights did it look like the opposition was going to trouble him regardless of where it was. I fail to see how Froch can be used against him when he won their fight so easily.

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Post by catchweight on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 3:45 pm

milkyboy wrote:
catchweight wrote:I cant see anyone arguing that Ward was not the best in the Super 6 or isnt a talented boxer?

He was the only boxer in the Super 6 that didnt travel. The home and away stats dont really apply to him.

The other home and away stats that applied to the rest of the competitiors would indicate that it can play a factor which shouldnt be easily dismissed. (Did any of the original 6 entrants actually lose a home fight?) Ward was immune (unfairly) from these factors. These fights become much tougher away from home.


And you can't see me arguing that fighting at home isn't an advantage...all fighters would fight at home given the chance. Here it's being to used to cheapen ward's achievements. What it is is a minor caveat. We're not talking Sven Ottke with the cards filled in before the fight.

It's a nice little statistical anomaly of how the draw panned out... But fighters do occasionally pull out a wina way from home. So really you have to look at the fights and say, what results do you think would have been different had the venues been flipped.

Realistically, the only fight I can think of where there's a good argument it made a clear difference to the result was Froch Dirrell. You can look at the Froch Kessler fights and say home advantage swung it, but most felt Kessler had lost a step by their return. Any others?

Ultimately if you accept that ward was the best fighter, would probably have won the fights away from home, the arguments is a bit pointless really. Stick an asterisk against it... Do the same for every other fighter who ever won a fight at home and move on.

What argument exactly is a bit pointless?

I dont like Ward because he only takes these fights when the deck is stacked in his favour which gonfers an unfair advantage to him. He wont take them if it means he has to leave his comfort zone. This is a less and argument and simply a matter of opinion on the guy.

And secondly that home advantage is big advantage which shouldnt be easily dismissed. One can only speculate what results would be different if fighters had swapped home advantage. I can plausibly see scenarios where Froch may have beat Kessler, Taylor may have beat Abraham, Dirrell may have beat Froch, Abraham may have beat Dirrell were the roles reversed. You see the draw as a statistical anaomoly. I see it supporting an argument on how strong a factor home advantage is.

I think in a competition of international flavour pitting most of the top 168 fighters against each other, the benefits and avantages of a shedule that see's one fighter alone have every fight at home while all other fighters have a solitary fight at home and have to travel all over the world is far from insignificant, even if you believe the results would ultimately have been the same. Its a shame Ward isnt as convinced as maybe he would have opted to travel for a couple of big fights.


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Post by Herman Jaeger on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 3:47 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:What's there for all to see is that Ward won the super six comfortably and during none of his fights did it look like the opposition was going to trouble him regardless of where it was. I fail to see how Froch can be used against him when he won their fight so easily.


So why did Ward point blank refuse to return Froch in Nottingham? Spin it any other way you like he point blank refused


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Post by catchweight on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 3:47 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:What's there for all to see is that Ward won the super six comfortably and during none of his fights did it look like the opposition was going to trouble him regardless of where it was. I fail to see how Froch can be used against him when he won their fight so easily.

A one round swing on your scorecard wasnt it?

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 3:51 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:What's there for all to see is that Ward won the super six comfortably and during none of his fights did it look like the opposition was going to trouble him regardless of where it was. I fail to see how Froch can be used against him when he won their fight so easily.


So why did Ward point blank refuse to return Froch in Nottingham? Spin it any other way you like he point blank refused

He didn't need to fight him again that's why, the first fight didn't exactly make a rematch a viable option.

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Post by milkyboy on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 4:00 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:So now Kessler had lost a step from his first fight with Froch oh dear milky your hatred of Froch knows no bounds

How about Froch just proved himself to be the more durable fighter over the two encounters ?

A fairly commonly held belief before the fight, supported by how off the pace Kessler looked during it. Kessler never fought again. I'm not stating it as fact, it was an opinion held by a fair few.

But yes hermy... I don't like Froch... And I thought I hid it so well!

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 4:03 pm

I seem to recall there was a fair amount of interest in the fight I think fans wanted to see if Ward could stamp his superiority in the other man's country only fair seeing as how advantageous home advantage proved to be in the tournament

But ultimately he point blank refused and you have to ask why the money was good

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 4:05 pm

Just as long as you're not stating it as fact that's fine milky thumbsup

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 4:12 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:I seem to recall there was a fair amount of interest in the fight I think fans wanted to see if Ward could stamp his superiority in the other man's country only fair seeing as how advantageous home advantage proved to be in the tournament

But ultimately he point blank refused and you have to ask why the money was good

I can't remember there being much interest in the fight outside of the Skysports team to be honest, as soon Ward had beaten Dawson there were calls for him to move up in weight having proven all he could at the weight.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 4:21 pm

I would love to have seen Ward fight in a fervently partisan atmosphere something like the Bute fight especially if Froch could have gotten off to a good start and charged the crowd but who knows Ward may have silenced the crowd early like the Dirrell fight and you're left thinking oh no it's going to be one of those nights

Looking forward let's hope they can wrap up the venue for his next fight very soon so that the tickets can go on sale people have to make arrangements book hotels etc

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 4:38 pm

You know why won't Frampton fight Leo in LA the answer's obvious if a crowd gets charged it can be a massive advantage, a force

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Post by Rowley on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 4:44 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:You know why won't Frampton fight Leo in LA the answer's obvious if a crowd gets charged it can be a massive advantage, a force

Or it could be because he fought him in his backyard and beat him, as such he is in the box seat on negotiations. Froch lost to Ward as such Ward did not have to give Froch sod all when it came to negotiating a rematch. Those are the realities of the business.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 4:54 pm

I'm fully aware Frampton doesn't have to fight Leo in LA I wasn't arguing otherwise but please do try to put words in my mouth won't you

What we're discussing is how much a benefit home advantage is or sometimes can be. Frampton had the crowd massively so in NY by the way in case you weren't aware

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Post by Rowley on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 5:53 pm

I'm not sure anyone is particularly arguing against the idea home advantage is not an advantage. However having watched the first Ward Froch fight my own view is it is not enough of a difference maker to breach the clear gulf in class between the two.

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Post by catchweight on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 6:10 pm

Most likely Ward would still have won away, although one cant say for sure. But it makes the fight that much harder. I thought the Super Six as a whole actually illustrated home advantage is even more important than might otherwise have been expected.

Either way, the significance of having ALL fights at home when the other fighters had only one fight at home should not be easily dismissed as barely relevant. It is a huge advantage. And the fact Ward has never travelled or been willing to travel in any significant fight is a major reason I dont care for the guy when all of his peers have had to make the sacrifice. Hard to like fighters who will only take to the ring when they have the deck stacked in their favour.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 6:21 pm

I wanted to see the return because Froch came on a bit at the end but above all I wanted to see Ward not only fight abroad but in the other man's backyard preferably in a very hostile atmosphere as a penance for having an unfair advantage over all the other participants in the tournament

Ward still favourite but if Froch is buzzing could be a fight. I don't see why people wouldn't want to see it. I mean if the alternative is Brand then you know why not

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Post by hazharrison on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 6:55 pm

I attended the Froch vs Dirrell fight and home advantage was massive in that one. The crowd were all over Dirrell's antics and I'm confident it helped sway the judges.

Ward would still likely have won the SS. He'd likely have beaten Dawson at 175 but stacking the deck in his favour does take some shine off his achievement.

Top fighter, though. Mentally very strong (his main asset in my view) but he could have been so much more had he loosened his own shackles.


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 11:04 pm

Your favorite Hagler's defences against foreigners..

V Hamsho....foreigner....New York.
V Obelmijas foreigner.....Boston...
V Sibson foreigner...........Boston..
V Mugabi foreigner..........Las Vegas..
V Hamsho foreigner.........Las Vegas..
V Duran  foreigner..........Las Vegas..
V Roldan foreigner. ........Las Vegas

Hagler had home advantage plenty.....You want to mark him down ??

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Post by catchweight on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 11:18 pm

Hagler wasnt signed to a tournament where he alone received preferential advantage though. He also travelled to a seriously hostile environment that would make Nottingham look like Disneyland. Leonard did get it in the neck back in the day over his controlling ways. He also lost his only meaningful fight outside the U.S incidentally. Perhaps it is an underrated feature in judging fighters. Maybe the ones that do all most of the travelling do deserve to get more recognition.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 11:48 pm

With respect Catchy.....Semantics..

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Post by hazharrison on Mon 15 Aug 2016, 7:34 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Your favorite Hagler's defences against foreigners..

V Hamsho....foreigner....New York.
V Obelmijas foreigner.....Boston...
V Sibson foreigner...........Boston..
V Mugabi foreigner..........Las Vegas..
V Hamsho foreigner.........Las Vegas..
V Duran  foreigner..........Las Vegas..
V Roldan foreigner. ........Las Vegas

Hagler had home advantage plenty.....You want to mark him down ??

Hagler was the middleweight king - champions can dictate terms. Ward was just another entrant in a competition (the outsider as well, nowhere near favourite status).

As Catchweight has highlghted: Hagler ripped the middleweight crown from Minter in one of the most hostile environs ever seen. He also regularly battled Philly fighters Briscoe, Monroe and Watt at the Spectrum.

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