England's Autumn selections

First topic message reminder :

Saturday 12th November
England vs South Africa
Twickenham

Saturday 19th November
England vs Fiji
Twickenham

Saturday 26th November
England vs Argentina
Twickenham

Saturday 3rd December
England vs Australia
Twickenham

Obviously we're not playing New Zealand, but it's the other 3/4 of the Rugby Championship plus Fiji for good measure.

So given form and fitness who's going to make our starting 15 / 23?

No Haskell, but we will have Hughes. Neither Farrell, Tuilagi and Brown have played yet and injuries are certain to intervene for others to lose out or benefit as happens.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Is Hughes that much slower than Itoje/Robshaw?

Not in a one off play, but I doubt he can sustain the level of off the ball activity that they do over 60 or 80 minutes

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Is Hughes that much slower than Itoje/Robshaw?

I don't know about that but Itoje/Robshaw are IMO better at the breakdown. Both their game awareness is very good. I am not saying Hughes game awareness is bad but Itoje and Robshaw are two who have particularly good rugby brains. All three are different rugby players. All have their strengths but I don't think being a nuisance at the breakdown both in attack and defence is something that Hughes is as good at.

I think he meant more that none of them were quick. Not that Hughes is really slow.

I guess it's going to have to be a slower backrow now due to injuries. At least Lawes is pretty quick and you get the sense that Marler and Mako are both quick for their position. Other players may have to increase their work rate.

I think he'll be fine against SA

Louw is injured, and they'll probably play a donkey who fits the quota rather than give one of their other genuine 7s a go, so we should be ok

Beshocked, you seem to be gearing up for one of your rants on the assumption that people think Hughes will 120% replace everything Itoje does

Not the case .. he just looks like he might be the best (last) option left to Jones, and people are trying to discuss what he will offer and where he may be lacking!

Bambam

No I don't think anyone thinks Hughes can replace everything Itoje does. I am just wondering whether Hughes is the next best option to play 7 or whether someone else would be better.

Hughes has his merits but he's new to international rugby, there is no guarantee he'll have the intensity to last 60-80 minutes, remember Billy didn't start as a 80 minute player. Also out of position.

Though saying that perhaps he is the best (last) option.

We are putting a lot of pressure on the player who starts at 7, that's for sure!

beshocked wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Is Hughes that much slower than Itoje/Robshaw?

I don't know about that but Itoje/Robshaw are IMO better at the breakdown. Both their game awareness is very good. I am not saying Hughes game awareness is bad but Itoje and Robshaw are two who have particularly good rugby brains. All three are different rugby players. All have their strengths but I don't think being a nuisance at the breakdown both in attack and defence is something that Hughes is as good at.

Hughes is excellent at the breakdown. He gained the most turnovers in the AP the season before last and seem to recall him getting 4 in one game a few weeks back, it's certainly a strength of his.

Hold up people.....

Everyone is talking and comparing Hughes to Itoje?

Don't forget...he wouldn't be replacing Itoje he's replacing Haskell...so you have to match THOSE two skills. It then becomes a bit more balanced as Hughes is a huge physical guy. He doesn't have to be a turnover king...he has to smash the breakdown and smash the tackle area.

THAT job he can do very well. Can he do it for 80 mins like Haskell....well that another matter all together.

Definitely a lot of pressure on whoever fills the shirt

I guess the key is that Jones isn't asking that player to be a 7 in the McCaw/Pocock sense, or to be Itoje, he just wants them to be smashing people back in defence, hitting rucks and adding a bit of ball carrying

In that respect, Hughes probably sounds like the best option still standing!

Sgt Pooly if you think that Hughes can do a job at 7 then good. I hope you are right, England do need someone there!

Bambam I am glad we aren't playing NZ that's for sure!

Geordiefalcon well that's what it comes down to - does Hughes have the fitness level/workrate needed at international level? As I said before even Billy needed time to work on his.

He is a huge physical presence, that's for sure.

Looking at what he's bring, rather than what he won't....

- A huge carrying game, have we ever had carrying options such as Billy, Mako, Hughes in the same side?
- Fantastic on the deck...he's another big option at the breakdown.

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly if you think that Hughes can do a job at 7 then good. I hope you are right, England do need someone there!

Bambam I am glad we aren't playing NZ that's for sure!

I must admit, I don't know. Has he got the work rate?? Do we just use him as an extra 8 and allow the other hard working players to cover him?

We've never been shy of workman like players, it's breakdown guys and big carriers that we've missed. Hughes certainly offers these two things imo.

As I said before....we need to realise in his current set up the 7 isn't doing a traditional 7's job!!

Of course by using Haskell as a wrecking ball...he has OTHER players like Itoje making the turnovers.

We don't have that this time...so maybe a real 7 will be required!!

Robshaw, Billy, Hughes with Chisholm on the bench would be the most 'EJ' backrow with the players available.

mid_gen wrote:Robshaw, Billy, Hughes with Chisholm on the bench would be the most 'EJ' backrow with the players available.

If we assume Kvesic and Harrison aren't to Eddie's taste, and that Thompson is seen as too old, then that seems plausible.

Way too early for Chisholm.

What ever happened to Ben Morgan or Thomas Waldrom?

I think Harrison is to EJ's taste but only if EJ feels he can get something out of him that Saints seemingly cannot at the moment (because he's not starting), and he has to be able to produce more than he did vs Oz.

I do feel positive that there will be opportunities for a few fringe players to make a statement this autumn, but the games could be a lot tougher than they would have been had we kept our first choice squad in one piece

yappysnap wrote:What ever happened to Ben Morgan or Thomas Waldrom?

I believe Morgan was called into the training squad earlier this season? No idea how he's playing these days but he's not exactly a hard worker or that multiskilled that he demands selection as he's directly up against Billy and now Hughes.

I think for Waldrom the train has long since left the station.

yappysnap wrote:Way too early for Chisholm.

Early, yes. Especially under normal circumstances. Way too early? I don't think so. He hasn't looked physically outmatched in any game I've seen, has the skills, and unlike most of the candidates left standing can play across the back row. Pick Morgan or Waldron as your bench option and Murphy's law says that Robshaw will get injured and you'll end up with three No 8s on the pitch.

I would not be at all surprised given the injury situation to see Chis in Wednesday's squad. For him to make the bench would be more surprising, but not outside the bounds of possibility.

While not in the EPS, Harrison was called up to the training session in Brighton - so is obviously still in Jones' thoughts.

Poorfour wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Way too early for Chisholm.

Early, yes. Especially under normal circumstances. Way too early? I don't think so. He hasn't looked physically outmatched in any game I've seen, has the skills, and unlike most of the candidates left standing can play across the back row. Pick Morgan or Waldron as your bench option and Murphy's law says that Robshaw will get injured and you'll end up with three No 8s on the pitch.

I would not be at all surprised given the injury situation to see Chis in Wednesday's squad. For him to make the bench would be more surprising, but not outside the bounds of possibility.

If he gets called up, Quins will run out of backrowers! Cue Ward at 7

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hold up people.....

Everyone is talking and comparing Hughes to Itoje?

Don't forget...he wouldn't be replacing Itoje he's replacing Haskell...so you have to match THOSE two skills....

Well, after Harrison was taken off, Itoje ended up being Haskell's replacement in the final June Test and he didn't end up doing what Haskell had done. Instead, he carried on playing as he had in the first two Tests, except with more freedom to get around.

If Itoje had been available, then you'd imagine Jones would have asked him to do just that again.

Since Itoje is an exceptional talent, it would seem to be easier to ask any new seven to aim at doing what Haskell did, rather than inevitably failing to match Itoje. However, it's not that easy to play like James Haskell, as Harrison discovered.

Surely the best strategy is to select someone for what they can do themselves, rather than how closely they can mimic players you'd rather have. At least, I think that's what Matt Kvesic is currently shouting to himself.

If Jones really does just want to play a flanker who can smash people, then we might have to prepare ourselves for the unlikely thought that he'll do a Lancaster, and stick Lawes there. Of course, Lancaster had him at six, and we know that Jones seems allergic to the idea of Robshaw as a seven, so he'd have to wear a different number, even if the job description was the same.

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hold up people.....

Everyone is talking and comparing Hughes to Itoje?

Don't forget...he wouldn't be replacing Itoje he's replacing Haskell...so you have to match THOSE two skills....

Well, after Harrison was taken off, Itoje ended up being Haskell's replacement in the final June Test and he didn't end up doing what Haskell had done. Instead, he carried on playing as he had in the first two Tests, except with more freedom to get around.

If Itoje had been available, then you'd imagine Jones would have asked him to do just that again.

Since Itoje is an exceptional talent, it would seem to be easier to ask any new seven to aim at doing what Haskell did, rather than inevitably failing to match Itoje. However, it's not that easy to play like James Haskell, as Harrison discovered.

Surely the best strategy is to select someone for what they can do themselves, rather than how closely they can mimic players you'd rather have. At least, I think that's what Matt Kvesic is currently shouting to himself.

If Jones really does just want to play a flanker who can smash people, then we might have to prepare ourselves for the unlikely thought that he'll do a Lancaster, and stick Lawes there. Of course, Lancaster had him at six, and we know that Jones seems allergic to the idea of Robshaw as a seven, so he'd have to wear a different number, even if the job description was the same.

Lawes surely has to play in the 2nd row though if he stays fit? Partnering Launchbury.

The whole point of Haskell at 7 was to avoid trying to make players play like a player you'd rather have, so I hope he'll be relatively flexible

ChequeredJersey wrote:The whole point of Haskell at 7 was to avoid trying to make players play like a player you'd rather have, so I hope he'll be relatively flexible

The two most widely-tipped wing replacements - Roko and Yarde - certainly play in a different way to Watson and Nowell.

EJ apparently names his 32 man AI training squad today. Strong suggestions that Bath pair Attwood and Ewels will replace the injured Sarries second row combo of Kruis and Itoje in the squad. (Apparently Jones sees Beaumont as a second row rather than a No8, but Ewels has been preferred to him too). Some suggestions that Kyle Sinckler may have leapfrogged the Saints pair of Hill & Brookes.

The Brighton Training Squad was as follows (from Telegraph - blame them for any errors):

Forwards: J Beaumont (Sale), D Cole (Leicester Tigers), J George (Saracens), T Harrison, D (both Northampton), J Haskell (Wasps), P Hill (Northampton), N Hughes (Wasps), M Itoje (Saracens), S Jones (Wasps), G Kruis (Saracens), J Launchbury (Wasps), C Lawes (Northampton), J Marler (Harlequins), B Morgan (Gloucester), C Robshaw (Harlequins), T Taylor (Wasps), B Vunipola, M Vunipola (both Saracens), M Williams (Leicester).


Backs: M Brown, D Care (Harlequins), E Daly (Wasps), O Devoto (Exeter), O Farrell (Saracens), G Ford (Bath Rugby), A Goode (Saracens), J Joseph (Bath Rugby), J Marchant (Harlequins), J Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), D Robson (Wasps), S Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby), H Slade (Exeter Chiefs), B Te'o (Worcester Warriors), A Watson (Bath Rugby), M Yarde (Harlequins), B Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

A bit off topic - But has anyone seen any progress on Ben Teo? I haven't seen him play since the LDH against Sarries and he looked OK in a poor Worcester performance.
Did he play in the team that got beaten in Siberia?

I am just wondering if he will be EJ's Clarke?

Forwards

Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for George Kruis (Saracens)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints) *injury replacement for James Haskell (Wasps)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby) *injury replacement for Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Tommy Taylor (Wasps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints) *injury replacement for Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins) *injury replacement for Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Injured players not considered for selection:

Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
James Haskell (Wasps)  
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)  
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Wow, Tom Wood back in.


So we could see a very Bomberesque pack.

Oh and Dan Robson has not forced his way in I see, but with Haley and Lozowski included am surprised at just two SHs.

LondonTiger wrote:Oh and Dan Robson has not forced his way in I see, but with Haley and Lozowski included am surprised at just two SHs.

Disappointed not to see Robson involved.

Rugby Fan wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Oh and Dan Robson has not forced his way in I see, but with Haley and Lozowski included am surprised at just two SHs.

Disappointed not to see Robson involved.

Agreed. I did feel we were pre-warned when Jones was banging on about the unreliability of club form and the gap between Euro and International requirements.

Now scared to say this, but I can only assume that Jones, Borthwick, Gustard etc have not seen enough from Robson in previous training sessions to warrant promotion.

It's been trailed a little, but Sinckler has overtaken Hill and Brookes. As one of only two tightheads in the squad, he's guaranteed a bench spot if he stays fit.

I'm surprised Wood has been recalled, but he's got the experience. I assume he will play 7 and Robshaw 6, though.

Given that Eddie's call to Wood before the 6N reportedly went "You're not in my squad because you're not good enough and you haven't been good enough for two years," that's quite a turn around. Shows the door is open for everyone, at least if the injury list is long enough.

Poorfour wrote:It's been trailed a little, but Sinckler has overtaken Hill and Brookes. As one of only two tightheads in the squad, he's guaranteed a bench spot if he stays fit.
...........................

..........................

Shows the door is open for everyone, at least if the injury list is long enough.

Two unrelated comments, but enough to persuade Phil Vickery to postpone his retirement.

Tom Wood.....that's not good news. Not even been playing that well for Saints from what I have seen.
Disappointed that Robson didn't make the cut as I think that Ben Youngs really isn't in form at the moment - but I guess with the number of forced changes that will have to be made that EJ will try to minimalize the changes elsewhere.
Does anyone know if Tommy Taylor is back and fit yet?
And is Hartley playing yet?
I am glad that Hayley is involved - might push Goode for that Bench spot and can probably cover wing better than either Brown or Goode can.

I am sure that with SA, EJ will want more forwards on the bench to deal with attrition rate.

Both Taylor and Hartley played at the weekend.

Cheers LT, at least that eases any pressure on the front row.
I think we can all agree that 2nd row is sorted with Launchbury and Lawes. Just a decision on if its Ewels or Attwood that covers from bench.
Then there is the well documented back row issue!
Curve Ball here - hasn't Billy V played 7 for Sarries or was that 6?

6 I think.

Suspect it will be Attwood ahead of Ewels for SA.

Jones has uncapped players there but tends to like experience, so might be inclined to go for a Lancaster flavour against SA.

From the press conference.

On recalling Tom Wood: "What can I say he's got get stronger with longer hair and a beard, he's like Samson! He's done really well, I've been very impressed with his work rate and I've been in contact with him since I named my first ever squad."

On his other options at seven: "I've been very impressed with Teimana Harrison, when I saw him on the weekend it was the best display from a Premiership seven all season."

"Robshaw still has that 6.5 jersey tucked away so you never know, he could play there."

Ewels can cover 2nd row and back row better than Attwood can....

Rugby Fan wrote:Forwards

Injured players not considered for selection:

Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
James Haskell (Wasps)  
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)  
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Jeez, that's a third of the 1st team down the pan - we'll do well to get more than a win or two

Man Jones just says what he wants to doesn't he?!

Mix of feelings with this squad, with all those injuries it was never going to be perfect. But I can't help but worry with names like Atwood, Wood, Goode, Teo still floating about.

Still chuffed for Sinckler though! He has had a storming season so far and if he does get on the pitch watch out for some fireworks.

Never a better time to play SA, they've been pretty pap

And a ton of time left for Hill as he is a baby in propping terms.

Its going to cause a tired team a whole heap of problems bringing Mako and Sinkler on as subs..

Barney McGrew did it wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Forwards

Injured players not considered for selection:

Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
James Haskell (Wasps)  
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)  
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Jeez, that's a third of the 1st team down the pan - we'll do well to get more than a win or two

It's really disappointing that we have so many injuries. Just hope some of the replacements can step up and make their mark..

yappysnap wrote:Never a better time to play SA, they've been pretty pap

Although last time SA were "in crisis" this happened...