6N 2017: England v France, 4 February

First topic message reminder :

  
ENGLAND v FRANCE
4 February 2017
KO: 16:50
Twickenham, London 

Live on ITV, FR2, RTE, DMAX, BBC (H)

Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Touch judges: Glen Jackson (New Zealand) & Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Peter Fitzgibbon (Ireland)

A. Head to Head

102 Played 102
56 Won 39
7 Drawn 7
39 Lost 56
1623 Points 1290

B. Recent Form 

19 March 2016
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
21 – 31 to England

22 August 2015
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
25 – 20 to France

15 August 2015
Twickenham, London
19 – 14 to England

21 March 2015
Twickenham, London
55 – 35 to England

1 February 2014
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
26 – 24 to France

C. Teams

ENGLAND 

15-Mike Brown; 14-Jonny May, 13-Jonathan Joseph, 12-Owen Farrell, 11-Elliot Daly; 10-George Ford, 9-Ben Youngs; 1-Joe Marler, 2-Dylan Hartley (captain), 3-Dan Cole, 4-Joe Launchbury, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-Maro Itoje, 7-Tom Wood, 8-Nathan Hughes

Replacements: 16-Jamie George, 17-Matt Mullan, 18-Kyle Sinckler 19-Teimana Harrison, 20-James Haskell, 21-Danny Care, 22-Ben Te'o, 23-Jack Nowell

FRANCE

15-Scott Spedding; 14-Noa Nakaitaci, 13-Remi Lamerat, 12-Gael Fickou, 11-Virimi Vakatawa; 10-Camille Lopez, 9-Baptiste Serin; 1-Cyril Baille, 2-Guilhem Guirado (captain), 3-Uini Atonio, 4-Sebastien Vahaamahina, 5-Yoann Maestri, 6-Damien Chouly, 7-Kevin Gourdon, 8-Louis Picamoles

Replacements: 16-Clement Maynadier, 17-Rabah Slimani, 18-Xavier Chiocci, 19-Arthur Iturria, 20-Loann Goujon, 21-Maxime Machenaud, 22-Jean Marc Doussain, 23-Yoann Huget

I can't really see how Lozowski is even in a training squad tbh, it's a bit of an odd one from Eddie as I think he's very average.

Daly is a no brainer for a bench spot due to covering every back position bar halfback.

16. George
17. Sinkler
18. Genge
19. Williams
20. Clifford
21. Robson/Care
22. Daly
23. Te'o

You're going with Lawes Launchbury and Itoje at 6 I take it sarge?

Yarde had a couple of games under Lancaster which had me believing he'd hold down the wing position for a while. I might have my chronology wrong, but I think he then moved to Quins and, coupled with injuries, lost his form and place. I know Jones likes him, but he's never been that convincing for me.

I've heard it said Jones likes players who have had to overcome something to get ahead - for instance, Robshaw had his World Cup low, Harrison had his troubled past, while Williams' family lost their farm in Zimbabwe. I think he sees Yarde as someone who also wants to prove a point, although I'm not sure why that would be.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You're going with Lawes Launchbury and Itoje at 6 I take it sarge?

Nailed it

Sgt Pooly Though then again you didn't rate one of England's best young prospects (eventually you got on the bandwagon admittedly)....so... I am not convinced you know what an average player is....

He'd walk into the Newcastle side.

Rugby fan if Road Runner can up his game, perhaps there is hope for Yarde. I am just not convinced.

Robshaw's not a bad player though, he's proved himself plenty of times at international level and I still think that option to kick for corner was right idea, poor execution.

The players with question marks I think are Teo, Harrison and Yarde. Last chance saloon for me.

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly Though then again you didn't rate one of England's best young prospects (eventually you got on the bandwagon admittedly)....so... I am not convinced you know what an average player is....

He'd walk into the Newcastle side.

Rugby fan if Road Runner can up his game, perhaps there is hope for Yarde. I am just not convinced.

Robshaw's not a bad player though, he's proved himself plenty of times at international level and I still think that option to kick for corner was right idea, poor execution.

The players with question marks I think are Teo, Harrison and Yarde. Last chance saloon for me.

Lozowski? No he wouldn't...

Personally think Itoje has improved massively since his Saracens debut. Thought he needed to improve his lineout work now looks to be easily one of the best in the prem. Jones has clearly told him to.improve his carrying and with the Vunipola injuries and more chance to do so for hid club I think he has improved. Impressive player.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly Though then again you didn't rate one of England's best young prospects (eventually you got on the bandwagon admittedly)....so... I am not convinced you know what an average player is....

He'd walk into the Newcastle side.

Rugby fan if Road Runner can up his game, perhaps there is hope for Yarde. I am just not convinced.

Robshaw's not a bad player though, he's proved himself plenty of times at international level and I still think that option to kick for corner was right idea, poor execution.

The players with question marks I think are Teo, Harrison and Yarde. Last chance saloon for me.

Lozowski? No he wouldn't...

Yes he would. It's obvious.

Don't quote him GF....he's on ignore!

I don't rate Lozowski too highly at all, I think I'd look half decent behind that Saracens pack.

BS....find the post where I said I didn't rate Itoje and said he would never be an England player. Until then, stop spouting the same old rubbish, over and over and over and over and over again.

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly Though then again you didn't rate one of England's best young prospects (eventually you got on the bandwagon admittedly)....so... I am not convinced you know what an average player is....

He'd walk into the Newcastle side.

Rugby fan if Road Runner can up his game, perhaps there is hope for Yarde. I am just not convinced.

Robshaw's not a bad player though, he's proved himself plenty of times at international level and I still think that option to kick for corner was right idea, poor execution.

The players with question marks I think are Teo, Harrison and Yarde. Last chance saloon for me.

Lozowski? No he wouldn't...

Yes he would. It's obvious.

Not to me it isn't....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Don't quote him GF....he's on ignore!

I don't rate Lozowski too highly at all, I think I'd look half decent behind that Saracens pack.

BS....find the post where I said I didn't rate Itoje and said he would never be an England player.  Until then, stop spouting the same old rubbish, over and over and over and over and over again.

Its difficult at times mate when he spouts his Saracens are deitys cr@p

Sgt Pooly yes of course it's that simple. Just stick someone behind the Saracens pack and they become top class....

That's the problem with you, you think that it's easy playing in a good side, if you don't perform you don't get in the side. That's how it works. It's very competitive. Not like being an automatic pick in a side down the lower end of the table. Game time has to be earnt. The pressure is greater. Especially when you play in more important games against better opposition.

Facing a team of Galacticos like Toulon is significantly harder than facing a side like Worcester.

Any mistake is amplified. A missed tackle could have lead to Lozowski being dropped. Instead his reputation has been enhanced. The rewards are great but the pressure is there too. Sink or swim.

Expectations are much greater.

Sgt Pooly you were championing Sean Robinson, saying he was superior to Itoje which was ridiculous.

Of course he's proven you wrong.

Geordiefalcon I get sick of the Newcastle players are great. Why are they ignored?

Look it's natural to think highly of your players. Just sometimes I get the impression people believe it's only me who has a high opinion of my club's own players.


Do you think that Joel Hodgson is being unfairly overlooked too?

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly yes of course it's that simple. Just stick someone behind the Saracens pack and they become top class....

That's the problem with you, you think that it's easy playing in a good side, if you don't perform you don't get in the side. That's how it works. It's very competitive. Not like being an automatic pick in a side down the lower end of the table. Game time has to be earnt. The pressure is greater. Especially when you play in more important games against better opposition.

Facing a team of Galacticos like Toulon is significantly harder than facing a side like Worcester.

Any mistake is amplified. A missed tackle could have lead to Lozowski being dropped. Instead his reputation has been enhanced. The rewards are great but the pressure is there too. Sink or swim.

Expectations are much greater.

Sgt Pooly you were championing Sean Robinson, saying he was superior to Itoje which was ridiculous.

Of course he's proven you wrong.

Geordiefalcon I get sick of the Newcastle players are great. Why are they ignored?

1) Because we have been woeful for years
2) Because we are not a fashionable money bags club.....
3) We still have some good players...who should have had recognition.

Robinson is an outstanding club player....but not good enough for England. He had Itoje in his pocket in that game...but you cant handle the fact your deity was bested...by an "average falcons player"

beshocked wrote:
That's the problem with you, you think that it's easy playing in a good side, if you don't perform you don't get in the side. That's how it works. It's very competitive. Not like being an automatic pick in a side down the lower end of the table. Game time has to be earnt. The pressure is greater. Especially when you play in more important games against better opposition.

And yet you poo poo Mark Wilsons chances despite consistently standing out in a poor side!

He didn't have Itoje in his pocket. Saracens beat Newcastle by a significant amount of points because rugby games are 80 minutes and Itoje made a rampaging run and did make an impact. I don't remember Robinson stopping him. Now I will concede it wasn't perhaps his best game but he did enough to aid the dominating of Newcastle who never looked like beating Saracens.

Temporarily holding someone back isn't the same as besting them.  Newcastle frustated Saracens but ultimately beaten by a big score.

1)True and you're still not that good yet. Representation will come if you keep performing.
2) True but then again you don't need to be top 4 to be represented, Quins and Saints have ample representation.
3) I'd say they haven't done enough.


As for Mark Wilson, he might be better than Harrison but do you really think he's got what it takes to be good at international level?

If Newcastle want to be fashionable you have to earn it.

I think you struggle with it being a team game. Saracens beat Newcastle so therefore [Insert Saracens player] was better than [Insert counterpart Falcons player].

Scotland lost a game, therefore Russell didn't impact the game enough.

I don't want Falcons to be "fashionable"...that's the LAST thing I want.

Yes Mark Wilson most definitely WOULD make a good showing in international rugby.

And yes Robinson DID have Itoje in his pocket. The score line is completely irrelevant to THAT battle on the pitch!

Scottrf no it's not that. Generally it's the opposite. If Saracens beat Toulon, for example Lozowski wasn't good, he just had an arm chair ride from his pack which made it easy.

You can have an impact in both victory and defeat. Good performances frequently get ignored from players in good teams because it's merely a good team effort.

Geordiefalcon I watched the game and I don't think Itoje was in anyone's pocket. You can have upper hand temporarily but if it isn't for the entire 80 then it doesn't count.

There were times in the latter part of the game when Newcastle struggled to handle Itoje as the Saracens juggernaut got well on top.

Being fashionable in my opinion is generally how you gain more international representation.

Exeter are a side constantly trying to become more fashionable and I would say it's working but it's a gradual process.

Which is surely a bad thing.

beshocked wrote:Scottrf no it's not that. Generally it's the opposite. If Saracens beat Toulon, for example Lozowski wasn't good, he just had an arm chair ride from his pack which made it easy.

You can have an impact in both victory and defeat. Good performances frequently get ignored from players in good teams because it's merely a good team effort.

Geordiefalcon I watched the game and I don't think Itoje was in anyone's pocket. You can have upper hand temporarily but if it isn't for the entire 80 then it doesn't count.

There were times in the latter part of the game when Newcastle struggled to handle Itoje as the Saracens juggernaut got well on top.

Being fashionable in my opinion is generally how you gain more international representation.

what the hell??? Why cant you just accept in that game your GOD was second best. Jesus!!

Being "Fashionable" isn't working for Wasps so I disagree that comment aswell!

Because he wasn't. The game was 80 minutes plus.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/dec/06/newcastle-falcons-saracens-premiership-match-report

The guardian was positive about Itoje.

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/report?gameId=267777&league=267979

Two big runs by Maro Itoje made a difference, forcing Newcastle on to the back foot and drawing the offside that allowed Hodgson to knock over his third penalty in the 55th minute.

Saracens delivered the killer blow in the 62nd minute with Tompkins' try.

Vunisa's pulverising run was backed up by Itoje and after Saracens skipper Jamie George fell just short of the line Tompkins snapped up the ball to roll over the bodies and score.

Of course you'd call that having someone in your pocket...

You obviously watched a difference game....

Not working for Wasps? How so?

Lol 'frugally assembled star-studded side'.

Well, that's another thread ruined.

It's nearly February, guys. Panto season is over, so can we cut out the "oh yes he did", "oh no he didn't" stuff and actually have a debate?

Poorfour, I think Beshocked is already engaged in a mass debate with Itoje in mind

Give him a few hours and we can resume normal service

Poorfour what do you want to debate then?

Do you rate Teo for example?

How can anyone rate him....He plays for Wuss!

Actually shown he offers that bludgeon effect that Jones wants though still not wold he was initially picked. With Tuilagi injured again it's either him or Hill really foe the role, both being good but not great.we wait for the best of both worlds.in Mallinder.

Mallinder will need to move club to make the improvement needed for England.

No 7&1/2 wrote:How can anyone rate him....He plays for Wuss!

Actually shown he offers that bludgeon effect that Jones wants though still not wold he was initially picked. With Tuilagi injured again it's either him or Hill really foe the role, both being good but not great.we wait for the best of both worlds.in Mallinder.

Are you suggesting because he plays for an "unfashionable club" that hes not a good player???

Lol.

scottrf why haven't Saints been trusting H.Mallinder more?

Bar one shocking miss for touch yesterday I thought he played quite well vs Leicester. Some nice touches,clever kicks, big boot and just looks like a classy player, that mistake was down to his immaturity which I am sure can easily be fixed. Obviously not yet the finished article but he's one player Saints should look to hold onto.

Te'o would be an interesting discussion. Is he worth more than a bench role? If so, is it at the expense of Ford or Farrell in the starting line up?

From my perspective, the Ford-Farrell axis has worked sufficiently well that I'd not want to disrupt it - though there was a bit of Aussie analysis posted that claims the England midfield is too small to live in a world of offloads.

Te'o is a possible answer to that. He's got a good workrate for a big guy and some subtlety in his play. Not as much of a battering ram as Tuilagi, but he gives a point of difference and an option to shift the emphasis in attack. But I still see him as a bench option for now - which I guess would displace Lozowski or Yarde if Ford and Farrell start.

beshocked wrote:scottrf why haven't Saints been trusting H.Mallinder more?

He's been injured. When he came back Myler-JJ 10-12 was working, and with JJ out has been playing again.

My real issue with him is that his defence is abysmal. And considering that a number of our players are similar up the field (we are great defensively on the try line) I don't think he's in the place to improve it.

Agree that his game offers a lot otherwise. Especially for a 20 year old.

beshocked wrote:scottrf why haven't Saints been trusting H.Mallinder more?

Bar one shocking miss for touch yesterday I thought he played quite well vs Leicester. Some nice touches,clever kicks, big boot and just looks like a classy player, that mistake was down to his immaturity which I am sure can easily be fixed. Obviously not yet the finished article but he's one player Saints should look to hold onto.

They should look to hold onto him, but it's not clear whether he should stay at Saints. If his dad leaves, which seems likely to happen sooner rather than later, then he may well want to look for a place where there's less baggage.

I won't go into too much detail, I've bored you all before on standing out in a poor team counts for less, but re Lozowski, I think it counts for more that he looks this good in a good side at the highest level than when he looked this good for Leeds Carnegie playing in the championship.

As a Leeds fan I was very excited when he burst on the scene, he looked a cut above and seemed to have lots of qualities. Thrilled to see him replicating that form for Saracens.

He's a strange case...always looked good for Wasps yet they seemed loathed to give him time on the pitch.

Obviously I'd love H.Mallinder to come to Sarries but I doubt he'd make the switch. He could potentially combine with Tompkins who I hope will eventually make the step up himself. Not yet though. More EQ needed in the squad.

Well I personally thought even before H.Mallinder's injury you were trusting Burrell and Pisi too much in the centres.

Poorfour I'd like to see what Teo can do if he's in the squad. No point having him if he's not going to contribute. Don't think he's a versatile bench option though.

In regards to Teo I am keeping an open mind.

beshocked wrote:Well I personally thought even before H.Mallinder's injury you were trusting Burrell and Pisi too much in the centres.

That is true. I think it's because Pisi is seen as the best defender of the centres (with good reason). Mallinder has had some good runs at 12 with Burrell 13, but Burrell shouldn't even be on the pitch at the moment.

Burrell is a strange one. Why has his form dipped so much? I thought in 2014 at 13, he did well in the 6 nations. Good strength, running great support lines. Poor 2015 though. Is it because he hasn't been utilised properly?

Now if Saints could get Ford Jr to sign then Ford-Mallinder-Burrell (back in form) could help rebuild Saints backline IMO.

Pisi might be a good defender but I thought Burrell when in form, was reliable enough for England.

beshocked wrote:Burrell is a strange one. Why has his form dipped so much? I thought in 2014 at 13, he did well in the 6 nations. Good strength, running great support lines. Poor 2015 though. Is it because he hasn't been utilised properly?

Now if Saints could get Ford Jr to sign then Ford-Mallinder-Burrell (back in form) could help rebuild Saints backline IMO.

Pisi might be a good defender but I thought Burrell when in form, was reliable enough for England.

He's always been a confidence player but I can't explain why he doesn't even look good enough to be a professional now. Must be a mix of coaching and confidence. His handling skills are awful. Decision making tends to be good, just can't execute.

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly you were championing Sean Robinson, saying he was superior to Itoje which was ridiculous

Never ever said that....again just making things up. We said he was better in 1 game.....yes 1 game, against Itoje, which he was.

You're so boring BS, just move on.

What happened to Stephenson the young Saints centre. Him and Hill of Exeter were supposed to be the next big things for England.

GeordieFalcon wrote:What happened to Stephenson the young Saints centre. Him and Hill of Exeter were supposed to be the next big things for England.

Broken leg.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's a strange case...always looked good for Wasps yet they seemed loathed to give him time on the pitch.

I've commented on this before and feel that there's more made of this than perhaps went on.

From memory he got quite a bit of rugby early doors and the fans et al seemed to like him. Then he announced he was signing for Saracens and got frozen out somewhat (pretty understandable, they'd want to look to the future).

I think it's a bit of a misnomer that he didn't get picked or has come out of nowhere. then again, having a vested interest perhaps I was paying more attention to him that most.

There must be some Wasps fans on this board, what went on???

I believe Lozowski was always frozen out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35170983

Lozowski wasn't even 2nd choice 10 at this point. Now maybe Wasps knew that Lozowski was signing for Saracens at this point but this was before the announcement.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/34519721

Picked out another random one in mid October 2015.

Now to me this suggests that Lozowski wasn't getting game time even before. If that's the case it's not a surprise he wanted to move.

My best prediction for the England 23 would be:

1.Mullan 2.Hartley 3.Cole 4.Launchbury 5.Lawes 6.Itoje 7.Haskell 8.Hughes
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Joseph 14.Nowell 15.Brown

16.George 17.Genge 18.Sinckler 19.Kruis 20.Clifford 21.Care 22.Te'o 23.Daly

Mostly straight forward as there are clear standouts in a lot of positions.

Anthony Watson being injured is a real shame but makes predicting the wingers easier.

I hope and expect that Lawes will get the nod over Kruis given the latter hasn't played recently. I think Kruis will take the starting shirt back over the course of the championship though.

I'd prefer Slade over Te'o on the bench but Jones seems to like the tactical chance that Te'o can offer.

I really hope that Clifford gets the bench back row spot over Harrison or Wood.

If Genge/George/Sinckler are the reserve front row then there's going to be some serious carrying power to throw on in the second half.

I really hope hope Mullen start. France have a good scrum and Mullen is certainly not a big scrummager, I'd be much happier with Marler getting the nod.

beshocked wrote:I believe Lozowski was always frozen out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35170983

Lozowski wasn't even 2nd choice 10 at this point. Now maybe Wasps knew that Lozowski was signing for Saracens at this point but this was before the announcement.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/34519721

Picked out another random one in mid October 2015.

Now to me this suggests that Lozowski wasn't getting game time even before. If that's the case it's not a surprise he wanted to move.

He played 27 times and scored 116 points so he was clearly getting game time at some point.

Also, to be fair, he was signed as 3rd choice fly half, so you wouldn't expect him to be nailing down the shirt every game. Anyway, I asked if Wasps fans have an opinion for a reason. If they follow their team closely like I follow mine they stand to have a bit more information, rather than just pulling whatever they can find on the BBC website...

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/player-archive/

He had just 1 start for Wasps in the AP.

http://www.epcrugby.com/matchcentre/player_archive.php?player=109185&includeref=dynamic

Doesn't seem like that much gametime to me but then again as you say I am just looking at match stats on websites. What do I know?


Why move to a club that has given you 10 starts and 2 as replacement in your first season in the AP at a new club?

cascough wrote:

beshocked wrote:I believe Lozowski was always frozen out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35170983

Lozowski wasn't even 2nd choice 10 at this point. Now maybe Wasps knew that Lozowski was signing for Saracens at this point but this was before the announcement.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/34519721

Picked out another random one in mid October 2015.

Now to me this suggests that Lozowski wasn't getting game time even before. If that's the case it's not a surprise he wanted to move.

He played 27 times and scored 116 points so he was clearly getting game time at some point.

Also, to be fair, he was signed as 3rd choice fly half, so you wouldn't expect him to be nailing down the shirt every game. Anyway, I asked if Wasps fans have an opinion for a reason. If they follow their team closely like I follow mine they stand to have a bit more information, rather than just pulling whatever they can find on the BBC website...

Not always....if its anything like Big Dean up here its a vacuum of information. Just finding out whos injured is a nightmare....