6N 2017: Scotland vs Wales, 25th Feb

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Scotland vs Wales


Date: Saturday 25th February 2017
Venue: BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick Off: 2:25pm
Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)
TV Coverage: Live on BBC

Weather Update


Teams

Scotland

1. Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors)
2. Faiser Brown (Glasgow Warriors)
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors)
4. Richie Gray (Toulouse)
5. Johnny Gray (Glasgow Warriors)
6. John Barclay (C) (Scarlets)
7. John Hardie (Edinburgh)
8. Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors)

9. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors)
10. Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors)
11. Tim Visser (Harlequins)
12. Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors)
13. Huw Jones (Stormers)
14. Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors)
15. Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors)

Replacements

16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh)
17 Allan Dell (Edinburgh)
18 Simon Berghan (Edinburgh)
19 Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors)
20 Hamish Watson (Edinburgh)
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors)
22 Duncan Weir (Edinburgh)
23 Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors)


Wales

1 Rob Evans (Scarlets)
2 Ken Owens (Scarlets)
3 Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs)
4 Jake Ball (Scarlets)
5 Alun Wyn Jones (C) (Ospreys)
6 Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues)
7 Justin Tipuric (Ospreys)
8 Ross Moriarty (Gloucester)

9 Rhys Webb (Ospreys)
10 Dan Biggar (Ospreys)
11 Liam Williams (Scarlets)
12 Scott Williams (Scarlets)
13 Jonathan Davies (Scarlets)
14 George North (Northampton)
15 Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon)

Replacements

16 Scott Baldwin (Ospreys)
17 Nicky Smith (Ospreys)
18 Samson Lee (Scarlets)
19 Luke Charteris (Bath)
20 Taulupe Faletau (Dragons)
21 Gareth Davies (Scarlets)
22 Sam Davies (Ospreys)
23 Jamie Roberts (Harlequins)

At least you Glasgow fans have had some success - what must I have done in a previous life to be punished by being an Edinburgh and Scotland fan??

RDW_Scotland wrote:At least you Glasgow fans have had some success - what must I have done in a previous life to be punished by being an Edinburgh and Scotland fan??

God loves a sinner. It's never to late to repent

3 Hail Mary's and become a Glasgow fan!

BigGee wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:At least you Glasgow fans have had some success - what must I have done in a previous life to be punished by being an Edinburgh and Scotland fan??

God loves a sinner. It's never to late to repent

3 Hail Mary's and become a Glasgow fan!

I'd still rather have abject disappointment and misery!

I'm pretty sure that's the Edinburgh motto..

RDW_Scotland wrote:

BigGee wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:At least you Glasgow fans have had some success - what must I have done in a previous life to be punished by being an Edinburgh and Scotland fan??

God loves a sinner. It's never to late to repent

3 Hail Mary's and become a Glasgow fan!

I'd still rather have abject disappointment and misery!

I'm pretty sure that's the Edinburgh motto..

Well just don't say we did not offer!

RDW_Scotland wrote:At least you Glasgow fans have had some success - what must I have done in a previous life to be punished by being an Edinburgh and Scotland fan??

I amwith you brother - what makes it worse for me I was born near bath! could have been bath and England but I end up Edinburgh and Scotland!

TJ wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:At least you Glasgow fans have had some success - what must I have done in a previous life to be punished by being an Edinburgh and Scotland fan??

I amwith you brother - what makes it worse for me I was born near bath!  could have been bath and England but I end up Edinburgh and Scotland!

I think we should set up a charity concert for us long suffering Edinburgh and Scotland fans.

Can imagine Bono speaking to the crowd getting everyone to click their fingers every 3s to represent how often an Edinburgh player drops the bsll!

Bono:  "Dedicate this song to Edinburgh and Scotland.  Lord knows, you've been shyte up to now.  But maybe times are turning.  This is a song of hope even in the extremes of doubt.  This is Kite."

BigGee wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:At least you Glasgow fans have had some success - what must I have done in a previous life to be punished by being an Edinburgh and Scotland fan??

God loves a sinner. It's never to late to repent

3 Hail Mary's and become a Glasgow fan!

Come in RDW. The water is lovely.

And you get free heroin and fried chocolate in your HR induction pack.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/six-nations/six-nations-tim-visser-s-stock-sky-high-after-scotland-win-1-4377384

Good to hear Tim Visser saying he's been working hard at training to improve his weaknesses - particularly high ball takes - it paid off on Saturday!

Slow to the party on this thread, but a ruddy fine performance from our boys at the weekend. Played Wales off the park in the second half with 20 unanswered points. Wonderful to finally beat them.

Let's not infect this thread by talk of Edinburgh rugby.....

Well done Scotland - been a long time coming.

We looked shot after the loss to England, I think we emptied the tank against them, so many unforced errors.

Our back row needs to be Moriarty, Warbs and Faletau - Tipuric was bullied at the breakdown.

munkian wrote:Well done Scotland - been a long time coming.

We looked shot after the loss to England, I think we emptied the tank against them, so many unforced errors.

Our back row needs to be Moriarty, Warbs and Faletau - Tipuric was bullied at the breakdown.

I thought Charteris made a real impact for you guys off the bench, and Rhys Webb was a complete menace (it was a great battle between him and Price, two 9s very much from the pain in the bum school of thought). Otherwise not much to cheer from a Welsh perspective, with the likes of Williams and North really struggling to get into the game. Biggar was nowhere, and Scott Williams looked as sluggish as I've seen him.

On the Scotland side there were a few stellar performances. I thought Fagerson was particularly impressive in the front row and around the park, as was Fraser Brown at hooker. Huge workrate. Nothing to add on Jonny Gray, he just did what he always does, although running around with AWJ in his back pocket must have been particularly tiring. Barclay was heroic, as was Watson off the bench. Price was a nuisance, Russell kicked like a dream and the entire back three looked really sharp. I think the Visser critics probably need to do the same as the Ryan Wilson critics, and taste a small piece of humble pie. Both played well.

Twickenham next and the mind games are already in full swing. I can't believe England will extend us the courtesy of playing as poorly against us as they did against Italy in the first 40 minutes, but here's hoping!

I admit I was wrong about Visser, I've always lauded his lethal strike rate, but his arial ability was something I did not expect and he also kept George North very quiet and put his tackles in. By some distance his best game in Navy blue and he only scored one try.

If Visser has indeed become a much more rounded player - and this wasn't just a one off - has he replaced Maitland given his superior attacking powers?

Oh and Watson. He was just a pest on Saturday. It really got on my boosums when Jiffy said "he'll never tour with the Lions" on the BBC forum. Why the hell not? Garland was in the stand watching him and Barclay absolutely ruin the Welsh pack on the floor...

RDW_Scotland wrote:If Visser has indeed become a much more rounded player - and this wasn't just a one off - has he replaced Maitland given his superior attacking powers?

Answers on a post card. It sure is a nice dilemma to have for once.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:If Visser has indeed become a much more rounded player - and this wasn't just a one off - has he replaced Maitland given his superior attacking powers?

Answers on a post card. It sure is a nice dilemma to have for once.

I'd still go with Maitland to be honest (covers 15 as well), but it's great to have depth, and I do think having Visser as first reserve can be considered genuine depth.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Oh and Watson. He was just a pest on Saturday. It really got on my boosums when Jiffy said "he'll never tour with the Lions" on the BBC forum. Why the hell not? Garland was in the stand watching him and Barclay absolutely ruin the Welsh pack on the floor...

Because he is not the type of player Gatland likes? only 6ft and 16 st is too small for a back?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Oh and Watson. He was just a pest on Saturday. It really got on my boosums when Jiffy said "he'll never tour with the Lions" on the BBC forum. Why the hell not? Garland was in the stand watching him and Barclay absolutely ruin the Welsh pack on the floor...

Poor old Jiffy, I'm sure he's still in a strop this morning. Given the latest injury to Hardie (he's not had much luck at all recently) and the previous loss of Strauss I wonder if Cotter will call anyone else up to the squad now or persist with whoever is left? Didn't sound from the radio on Friday that Bradbury and Du Preez were particularly on form so I'm not sure where that leaves him with choices apart from possibly Denton who himself has only recently returned to playing and doesn't offer an option at 7.

Denton to come into the squad i think and probably onto the bench. None of the others have put their hands up at all. At least Dents has some credit in the bank.

I can't see us being able to get away with leaving so many players on the bench against England. That is the second international this season that the just turned 21 year old Zander has had to do the full 80 mins. He lasted very well for the duration, which is quite remarkable.

Otrher than some tweaks to the bench though I don't see any changes. For me, Visser earned another crack.

MacKnocked-on wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Oh and Watson. He was just a pest on Saturday. It really got on my boosums when Jiffy said "he'll never tour with the Lions" on the BBC forum. Why the hell not? Garland was in the stand watching him and Barclay absolutely ruin the Welsh pack on the floor...

Poor old Jiffy, I'm sure he's still in a strop this morning. Given the latest injury to Hardie (he's not had much luck at all recently) and the previous loss of Strauss I wonder if Cotter will call anyone else up to the squad now or persist with whoever is left? Didn't sound from the radio on Friday that Bradbury and Du Preez were particularly on form so I'm not sure where that leaves him with choices apart from possibly Denton who himself has only recently returned to playing and doesn't offer an option at 7.  

Do we know if Hardie and Strauss will be fit? Tough one on Cotter, as there aren't many players to choose from on form. How did Ashe get on for Glasgow?

If I absolutely had to choose a replacement, I'd go with Du Preez and have him on the bench (with Barclay, Watson and Wilson starting).

BigGee wrote:Denton to come into the squad i think and probably onto the bench. None of the others have put their hands up at all. At least Dents has some credit in the bank.

I can't see us being able to get away with leaving so many players on the bench against England. That is the second international this season that the just turned 21 year old Zander has had to do the full 80 mins. He lasted very well for the duration, which is quite remarkable.

Otrher than some tweaks to the bench though I don't see any changes. For me, Visser earned another crack.

I thought Fagerson was outstanding. Full of fire in the loose and combative in the set piece. Close to being my MOTM, albeit very strong cases to be made for Russell and Hogg.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

MacKnocked-on wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Oh and Watson. He was just a pest on Saturday. It really got on my boosums when Jiffy said "he'll never tour with the Lions" on the BBC forum. Why the hell not? Garland was in the stand watching him and Barclay absolutely ruin the Welsh pack on the floor...

Poor old Jiffy, I'm sure he's still in a strop this morning. Given the latest injury to Hardie (he's not had much luck at all recently) and the previous loss of Strauss I wonder if Cotter will call anyone else up to the squad now or persist with whoever is left? Didn't sound from the radio on Friday that Bradbury and Du Preez were particularly on form so I'm not sure where that leaves him with choices apart from possibly Denton who himself has only recently returned to playing and doesn't offer an option at 7.  

Do we know if Hardie and Strauss will be fit? Tough one on Cotter, as there aren't many players to choose from on form. How did Ashe get on for Glasgow?

If I absolutely had to choose a replacement, I'd go with Du Preez and have him on the bench (with Barclay, Watson and Wilson starting).

Hardie and Strauss out for the rest of the tournament. Strauss will be lucky to get back for the sarries quarter final.

trouble is Fagersons Sub is totally inexperienced is he not?

TJ wrote:trouble is Fagersons Sub is totally inexperienced is he not?

Zander is hardly the grizzled old vetern either! It is a lot to ask of him to keep putting in the 80 minute shifts in the front row, despite him managing it manfully so far.

BigGee wrote:

TJ wrote:trouble is Fagersons Sub is totally inexperienced is he not?

Zander is hardly the grizzled old vetern either! It is a lot to ask of him to keep putting in the 80 minute shifts in the front row, despite him managing it manfully so far.

Worth noting that England often use Mako Vunipola as an impact sub at loosehead, who is a fine player in the loose but technically not a great scrummager. Might be safe to let Berghan take him on for 15 minutes.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Oh and Watson. He was just a pest on Saturday. It really got on my boosums when Jiffy said "he'll never tour with the Lions" on the BBC forum. Why the hell not? Garland was in the stand watching him and Barclay absolutely ruin the Welsh pack on the floor...

Watson was immense. He was superb against Ireland too. Made a massive difference.

All round it was a brilliant performance but Watson is a loathsome opponent.

Given Hardie is now out, Denton is just back playing again, and Edinburgh are doing everything in their power to demotivate/hinder CDP and Bradbury, would Harley be an option off the bench?

I know he’s not dynamic in anyway, but he’s fit, will tackle for 80 mins if needed and fairly experienced at international level, plus can cover 6 & 7 (to various levels)

If we weren’t full of injuries in the backrow I don’t think he should be near the team, but we are running out of players at a rate of noughts.

Would Swinson be an option at 6?

mikey_dragon wrote:Would Swinson be an option at 6?

That's not the most outrageous thing I've ever heard to be honest. But if Denton is available I'd pick him.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Would Swinson be an option at 6?

That's not the most outrageous thing I've ever heard to be honest. But if Denton is available I'd pick him.

Bath fans have been quite underwhelmed with him. Another quality Pro12 player gone to England and taken a dip... Either way a good carrying option is needed as England will be as physical as Wales. In addition to that they will be better at finishing. I think Swinson might add some weight to the driving lineout and Scotland can utilise that, whilst also negating England's driving lineout (it has been quite effective so far).

funnyExiledScot wrote:

BigGee wrote:

TJ wrote:trouble is Fagersons Sub is totally inexperienced is he not?

Zander is hardly the grizzled old vetern either! It is a lot to ask of him to keep putting in the 80 minute shifts in the front row, despite him managing it manfully so far.

Worth noting that England often use Mako Vunipola as an impact sub at loosehead, who is a fine player in the loose but technically not a great scrummager. Might be safe to let Berghan take him on for 15 minutes.

I don't think that's an accurate statement - he mangled his opposite number when he came on yesterday.

Denton has barely had a run in the Bath team since he went down there due to injuries, so hard to judge how he really is getting on down there.

He has started a couple of games now and did a couple more off the bench prior to that, so should definitely be getting up to speed fitness wise.

Duncan Taylor also played the full game for Sarries at FB on saturday. Played well and scored a good try from what i saw. He may come back into a bench option as well, no doubt he will get another game under his belt next weekend as well.

It is going to be a far tougher game against England and i can't help but feel that we will need to utilise our bench properly this time because we are going to tire. Watson will surely start this time but the way he plays, it is hard to see him going the full 80 as well.

BigGee wrote:Denton has barely had a run in the Bath team since he went down there due to injuries, so hard to judge how he really is getting on down there.

He has started a couple of games now and did a couple more off the bench prior to that, so should definitely be getting up to speed fitness wise.

Duncan Taylor also played the full game for Sarries at FB on saturday. Played well and scored a good try from what i saw. He may come back into a bench option as well, no doubt he will get another game under his belt next weekend as well.

It is going to be a far tougher game against England and i can't help but feel that we will need to utilise our bench properly this time because we are going to tire. Watson will surely start this time but the way he plays, it is hard to see him going the full 80 as well.

Without sounding too much like a broken record Matt Scott would be justifiably miffed if that happened.

Duncan Taylor has done well for Scotland in the past though and is a favourite of VC so it may happen.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

BigGee wrote:

TJ wrote:trouble is Fagersons Sub is totally inexperienced is he not?

Zander is hardly the grizzled old vetern either! It is a lot to ask of him to keep putting in the 80 minute shifts in the front row, despite him managing it manfully so far.

Worth noting that England often use Mako Vunipola as an impact sub at loosehead, who is a fine player in the loose but technically not a great scrummager. Might be safe to let Berghan take him on for 15 minutes.

I don't think that's an accurate statement - he mangled his opposite number when he came on yesterday.

Through power and his opposite number being a disaster. Hes never been a technician. As a repacement hes usually coming up against either tired players or ones who get selected because the opposition had to select someone. International class tightheads are pretty rare, especially for smaller Unions like Italy. Mako can get away with just a bit of brutality when with a completely fresh front row against the Italian second choices.
To be fair though loosehead is generaly not a greatly technical position and Mako has improved a bit ...some of his early caps he got absolutely spooned by more wiley opponents. Marler too started off with a reputation for being great in the loose but a terrible scrummager.

Either way they are both on a par in general terms, I just though Mako bought a lot more presence and the scrums later in the game were incredibnly dominant. If they push Scotland off their won ball early then that really would set a precedent for the game.

In other news we're up to 5th in the World Rankings - our highest ever position!

RDW_Scotland wrote:In other news we're up to 5th in the World Rankings - our highest ever position!

Deserved. Quality Scottish team who copied with missing players very well at the weekend.

Wales below SA the worst team in world rugby, England past 90 points and closing in on NZ - not sure when the 2nd ranked team in the world was ranked with that many points. Am I right in thinking that top 4 is out of reach for Wales, but not Scotland if certain results go their way?

mikey_dragon wrote:Wales below SA the worst team in world rugby, England past 90 points and closing in on NZ - not sure when the 2nd ranked team in the world was ranked with that many points. Am I right in thinking that top 4 is out of reach for Wales, but not Scotland if certain results go their way?

Top 4 is out of our reach because of the rugby we are playing!

Probably. We can beat Ireland and France but as we're at home to Ireland and already ranked higher than France I'm not sure we could gain much, where-as Scotland are playing the No2 ranked team away from home therefore could gain a lot should they get the win.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Oh and Watson. He was just a pest on Saturday. It really got on my boosums when Jiffy said "he'll never tour with the Lions" on the BBC forum. Why the hell not? Garland was in the stand watching him and Barclay absolutely ruin the Welsh pack on the floor...

Watson was great, but I don't think that's true. Warburton was a menace all day.

mikey_dragon wrote:Wales below SA the worst team in world rugby, England past 90 points and closing in on NZ - not sure when the 2nd ranked team in the world was ranked with that many points. Am I right in thinking that top 4 is out of reach for Wales, but not Scotland if certain results go their way?

I've no idea how the rankings work, but I would assume (probably wrongly) that IF Scotland manage to beat England then we would surely get another boost in terms of the rankings.

My rationale is basically, England are massively ahead of us points wise, we'd be playing away from home in a competitive tournament.  No idea if any of those things are a relevant, but popping in the Wales vs Scotland result here has moved us up to 5th (the rankings haven't been updated yet) and then a further win against England (I just went 5 points for England 7 for Scotland), moved us up to 4th.

http://irbrankingcalculator.azurewebsites.net/

Can't see this happening for clarity, but in theory we could move into the top 4

maestegmafia wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Oh and Watson. He was just a pest on Saturday. It really got on my boosums when Jiffy said "he'll never tour with the Lions" on the BBC forum. Why the hell not? Garland was in the stand watching him and Barclay absolutely ruin the Welsh pack on the floor...

Watson was immense. He was superb against Ireland too. Made a massive difference.

All round it was a brilliant performance but Watson is a loathsome opponent.

:-) A great compliment to a 7 ;-)

Mike Blair had a great comment about Watson a few years ago - he said it was a complete nightmare trying to tackle him as he was arms and legs everywhere with great determination and you'd always end up with an elbow in the ribs or knee in the face or something like that.

So much power and he's so dynamic. He didn't used to get many turnovers so it is great to see he's added that to his fame.

mikey_dragon wrote:Wales below SA the worst team in world rugby, England past 90 points and closing in on NZ - not sure when the 2nd ranked team in the world was ranked with that many points. Am I right in thinking that top 4 is out of reach for Wales, but not Scotland if certain results go their way?

I think if Wales win 2 and Ireland lose 2, Wales can get 4th.

Beating an equally ranked team is worth 1 ranking point, doing it by 15 points is worth 1.5.

Given Ireland are above of them, but Wales are at home, and France are below Wales, I'd suggest that Wales can catch up around 2 points unless they paste someone.

If Ireland lose to Wales, they'll lose a point, and if England beat Ireland that would be worth half a point. (If Ireland beat England, that would be worth about 1.5 points.)

So in the above scenario, there would be a 3.5 point swing toward Wales.

EWT Spoons wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Wales below SA the worst team in world rugby, England past 90 points and closing in on NZ - not sure when the 2nd ranked team in the world was ranked with that many points. Am I right in thinking that top 4 is out of reach for Wales, but not Scotland if certain results go their way?

I've no idea how the rankings work, but I would assume (probably wrongly) that IF Scotland manage to beat England then we would surely get another boost in terms of the rankings.

My rationale is basically, England are massively ahead of us points wise, we'd be playing away from home in a competitive tournament.  No idea if any of those things are a relevant, but popping in the Wales vs Scotland result here has moved us up to 5th (the rankings haven't been updated yet) and then a further win against England (I just went 5 points for England 7 for Scotland), moved us up to 4th.

http://irbrankingcalculator.azurewebsites.net/

Can't see this happening for clarity, but in theory we could move into the top 4

If Scotland beat England at Twickenham, they'll get a full 2 point ranking boost. By over 15 points and it's 3. You'll have to consider what Ireland do against Wales before you work out whether you'd be 4th or not though.

It's calculated on the ranking points difference, and England get an artificial +3 as they're at home (i.e. they're expected to be 3 points better at home). This puts Scotland over 10 points behind England, which is the maximum recognised gap (anything over 10 is counted as 10).

Being in the Six Nations doesn't make a difference, only RWC matches get more weighting.

TJ wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Oh and Watson. He was just a pest on Saturday. It really got on my boosums when Jiffy said "he'll never tour with the Lions" on the BBC forum. Why the hell not? Garland was in the stand watching him and Barclay absolutely ruin the Welsh pack on the floor...

Watson was immense. He was superb against Ireland too. Made a massive difference.

All round it was a brilliant performance but Watson is a loathsome opponent.

:-)  A great compliment to a 7 ;-)

He was like the great Dai Morris

robbo277 wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Wales below SA the worst team in world rugby, England past 90 points and closing in on NZ - not sure when the 2nd ranked team in the world was ranked with that many points. Am I right in thinking that top 4 is out of reach for Wales, but not Scotland if certain results go their way?

I've no idea how the rankings work, but I would assume (probably wrongly) that IF Scotland manage to beat England then we would surely get another boost in terms of the rankings.

My rationale is basically, England are massively ahead of us points wise, we'd be playing away from home in a competitive tournament.  No idea if any of those things are a relevant, but popping in the Wales vs Scotland result here has moved us up to 5th (the rankings haven't been updated yet) and then a further win against England (I just went 5 points for England 7 for Scotland), moved us up to 4th.

http://irbrankingcalculator.azurewebsites.net/

Can't see this happening for clarity, but in theory we could move into the top 4

If Scotland beat England at Twickenham, they'll get a full 2 point ranking boost. By over 15 points and it's 3. You'll have to consider what Ireland do against Wales before you work out whether you'd be 4th or not though.

It's calculated on the ranking points difference, and England get an artificial +3 as they're at home (i.e. they're expected to be 3 points better at home). This puts Scotland over 10 points behind England, which is the maximum recognised gap (anything over 10 is counted as 10).

Being in the Six Nations doesn't make a difference, only RWC matches get more weighting.

Have a spreadsheet which calculates the rankings changes if I put in possible results - see my post on the sticky World Rankings, but in summary, Wales can get to 4th if they win both matches (and Ireland lose both), Scotland can get to 4th if they win both matches and Ireland both (or if Scotland beat England by >15 and Ireland lose to England), and Wales or France will drop to 9th if Ireland beat Wales

Am I correct and thinking that we definitely can't drop below 8th now and are guaranteed 2nd seed for the world cup?

EDIT: Incorrect info.