The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

[No9]

First topic message reminder :

1) Hartley - Not a chance. Playing like a Muppet, being sub'd each game, because he's not up to it. As it stands, unlikely to go on the tour, never the less be Capt.

2) Alun Wyn - Blown it. Was the first choice (IMO). Set up for him, with Warbs standing down as Welsh Capt, but AWJ loathing of being interviewed and the appalling Welsh team performance has ruined his chance of Lions Capt. The nail in the coffin being his comment this week, that he wanted to kick the penalties but Biggar and Halfpenny didn't want to..... WTF... WHO'S CAPT!!!

3) Laidlaw - Not sure of a starting place as Lions 9, and with injuries, will he be ready for the tour.


which, IMO has pushes Rory Best into the pole position for Lions Capt. With the exception of Brown, he's been the on form hooker this 6 Nations, and as Gats has already stated he would like the Lions capt to also captain his country, Best is now the first choice.

... But Warbs is a good outsider, has he's been there, works well with Gats and has the professional attitude needed. He handles the media well and is starting to show return in his form.

Thoughts...

[Rugbyjk]

Anyday Gwlad.

[Gwlad]

Anyday Gwlad.

can you translate? i don't have a 10 year old so aren't up on the latest kid speak? Is this some sort of playground threat?

[Rugbyjk]

Ok, so no time for armchair warriors. Lions xv still totally up for grabs.

[Presuming Ed]

Calm it down lads......

[Gwlad]

Everything would be fine if 'JK' could control himself.

[The Great Aukster]

A Welshmen having a go at the Scottish team two weeks after they played you off the park, one victory over an Ireland team completely devoid of ideas doesn't change that.

There has to be serious question marks over Murray and Sexton as the half backs, they look blunt the moment they come up against a well organised defence.

It is clear that England will have the majority of the Lions and Wales will be next. Scotland should have five or six and Ireland might only have McGrath and Furlong travelling.
In sharp contrast to 2005, England are not living on past RWC glory but are on an exceptional run, so this time a large number of England players would be well justified, with maybe only Furlong, Webb and Hogg being drafted in to the Test team. Hartley as captain was the main change Eddie Jones made to turn English fortunes and he is obviously revered by his teammates so has to be the Lion's captaincy frontrunner.

[Sgt_Pooly]

A Welshmen having a go at the Scottish team two weeks after they played you off the park, one victory over an Ireland team completely devoid of ideas doesn't change that.

There has to be serious question marks over Murray and Sexton as the half backs, they look blunt the moment they come up against a well organised defence.

It is clear that England will have the majority of the Lions and Wales will be next. Scotland should have five or six and Ireland might only have McGrath and Furlong travelling.
In sharp contrast to 2005, England are not living on past RWC glory but are on an exceptional run, so this time a large number of England players would be well justified, with maybe only Furlong, Webb and Hogg being drafted in to the Test team. Hartley as captain was the main change Eddie Jones made to turn English fortunes and he is obviously revered by his teammates so has to be the Lion's captaincy frontrunner.

I think they'll be a fair few more than that GA.

Murray & Sexton (despite a poor game are top players), CJ Stander, Henshaw at least will be on the plane.

[lostinwales]

The trick is in building the team. We have found a coach and a way to play that suits us very very well. The Lions team won't be the same, and its entirely likely that players from the other nations will do more to help build the Lions team than many in the England squad.

[Steve_rugby]

Ugh perhaps. Whats most interesting is how Ireland and Scots have played themselves out of contention from being strongly favored at the beginning of the tournament, contrarily Wales firmly back in again. Right now we know that most likely England will provide perhaps even the bulk of tourists, followed by Wales with Ireland behind and sadly only a very few Scots because todays performance v England showed them up for where they truly are at.

How so ? Just because they managed to win at home on Friday night ?

[doctor_grey]

Ugh perhaps. Whats most interesting is how Ireland and Scots have played themselves out of contention from being strongly favored at the beginning of the tournament, contrarily Wales firmly back in again. Right now we know that most likely England will provide perhaps even the bulk of tourists, followed by Wales with Ireland behind and sadly only a very few Scots because todays performance v England showed them up for where they truly are at.

How so ? Just because they managed to win at home on Friday night ?

A win certainly helped by Henshaw not knowing how to join a maul. if not for that, who knows which team would have won. To me, in that that Wales and Ireland played each other pretty much on par with each other.

[George Carlin]

This thread is 2 WUM-tastic comments away from being closed down, so perhaps we could all take a grip on our respective horses and stop with the poop flinging.

I'm Scottish, so I've eaten more of the aforementioned than any of you in the past 24 hours.

[Gwlad]

Ugh perhaps. Whats most interesting is how Ireland and Scots have played themselves out of contention from being strongly favored at the beginning of the tournament, contrarily Wales firmly back in again. Right now we know that most likely England will provide perhaps even the bulk of tourists, followed by Wales with Ireland behind and sadly only a very few Scots because todays performance v England showed them up for where they truly are at.

How so ? Just because they managed to win at home on Friday night ?

No because in the last two winning tours Welshmen scored all the points.

[No 7&1/2]

Nope they didn't. Wouldn't matter if they did though rugby is a team game.

[Gwlad]

Nope they didn't.  Wouldn't matter if they did though rugby is a team game.

Well its a good job there are plenty of Welshmen around to score the points for the team isn't it.

1997: Jenkins 41/59 points (83%)
2013: Halfpenny 49/79 points (62%) and of those 79, 69 (87%) were from the Welsh contingent.

You're welcome.

[No 7&1/2]

Welcome for what? You admitting your post was wrong initially?

[poissonrouge]

Ugh perhaps. Whats most interesting is how Ireland and Scots have played themselves out of contention from being strongly favored at the beginning of the tournament, contrarily Wales firmly back in again. Right now we know that most likely England will provide perhaps even the bulk of tourists, followed by Wales with Ireland behind and sadly only a very few Scots because todays performance v England showed them up for where they truly are at.

How so ? Just because they managed to win at home on Friday night ?

No because in the last two winning tours Welshmen scored all the points.

It seems maybe a bit rash to base judgements on one round. The implication of this post is that because Wales beat Ireland, Ireland are rubbish and because Scotland got tanked they are rubbish. And if France takes Wales to the cleaners next week, and Ireland rebound by beating England - does that mean that Wales and England are rubbish? Does Stuart Hogg sustaining a head injury or Conor Murray a stinger mean that they are useless?
If the Lions want to have any chance of beating NZ they need to have the best players from here not the players who happened to play well one week.
And I'm not sure how relevant because in the last two winning tours Welshmen scored all the points. is as an argument.

[Gwlad]

Welcome for what?  You admitting your post was wrong initially?

Nice to see a non Welshman scoring a point at last, doesn't happen often but if you want to score a point for my use of ALL fill your boots, pretty pyhrric victory though but one i expect at least  you will get a lot of hand wringing pleasure from.  

Sentences carry inference but you're obviously too obtuse to understand that so i added some percentages for you which clearly demonstrate the significant contribution made by Welshmen in winning the last two series.

You're welcome, again.

[No 7&1/2]

And again I don't really think you get rugby gwlad.

[Gooseberry]

Yeah but if BOD hadn't had his life ruled by the spiteful revenge substitution he would've scored all the points.

(By all I obviously mean none)

[George Carlin]

If everyone continues to behave like toddlers, then we'll keep the new thread subject heading as it currently is.

[Gooseberry]

But we do get ice cream right?

[TightHEAD]

I hope that no England players make the tour to NZ, as we are building something special and would benefit more from playing a few games in Japan to soak up the atmos and climate that they will face in the 2019 RWC.

The Lions is an out of date concept designed to allow the lower ranked home nations a chance to compete at a higher level.

[George Carlin]

But we do get ice cream right?

[LondonTiger]

If everyone continues to behave like toddlers, then we'll keep the new thread subject heading as it currently is.

Was this the "Lions Captain" thread?

If so Warburton has seen the chances of him being re-appointed continue to rise. Although it seemed that the transfer of teh Welsh leadership to AWJ was an ideal way to ease the lock into the Lions job, since then their has been significant criticism of his leadership, while from a playing point of view he would be far from certain to play. Shoudl Warburton put another strong performance in against France he is surely on the plane and a genuine captain contender.

[Guest]

Warburton is playing so much better because he's not captain. Giving the captaincy again would, in my opinion, lead to a fall off in performance. Leave him to be just a player, I say.

[LondonTiger]

Warburton is playing so much better because he's not captain.  Giving the captaincy again would, in my opinion, lead to a fall off in performance.  Leave him to be just a player, I say.

You may well be right (and I believe Gats will have him wearing 7 not 6) but I am struggling to find a captain who is experienced in the role and a nailed on starter.

[Sgt_Pooly]

6. Stander
7. Warburton(c)
8. Vuinipola

Sorted

[Scottrf]

6. Stander
7. Warburton(c)
8. Vuinipola

Sorted

Yeah or Tipuric 7 I'm happy with.

[munkian]

6. Stander
7. Warburton(c)
8. Vuinipola

Sorted

Yeah or Tipuric 7 I'm happy with.

I'd rather Warburton NOT be Captain - he plays much better without that burden.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I think it was the Welsh captaincy that had got him down tbh. A one off Lions tour could get him to a even higher level, or not.

[munkian]

I think it was the Welsh captaincy that had got him down tbh. A one off Lions tour could get him to a even higher level, or not.

Fairy nuff. He could certainly be tour Captain.

[RuggerRadge2611]

6. Stander
7. Warburton(c)
8. Vuinipola

Sorted

Gets my vote.

My team at this stage:

1. Marler
2. Owens
3. Furlong
4. Lawes
5. AWJ
6. Stander
7. Warburton
8. Vunipola

9. Murray
10. Ford
11. North
12. Farrell
13. Joseph
14. Williams
15. Hogg

16. Hartley 17. Healy 18. Cole 19. J Gray 18. Itoje 19. Faletau 20. Webb 21. Sexton 22. Nowell 23. Seymour

Who is the captain in that team is hard. My confidence in AWJ was shaken in the game against Scotland, Warburton plays better when he's not got the added pressure. I'd never take Hartley because IMO he's a bit antagonistic.

Farrell jumps out as a sensible choice but I don't know how he'd deal with the pressure of being captain and kicking.

[Scottrf]

Farrell jumps out as a sensible choice but I don't know how he'd deal with the pressure of being captain and kicking.

Really? If that guy feels pressure I've not seen evidence of it.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I really like the 10 subs option RuggerRadge!

[munkian]

Will Moriarty tour with all the backrow competition ? Hasn't really put a foot wrong all tournament.

[RuggerRadge2611]

6. Stander
7. Warburton(c)
8. Vuinipola

Sorted

Gets my vote.

My team at this stage:

1. Marler
2. Owens
3. Furlong
4. Lawes
5. AWJ
6. Stander
7. Warburton
8. Vunipola

9. Murray
10. Ford
11. North
12. Farrell
13. Joseph
14. Williams
15. Hogg

16. Hartley
17. Healy
18. Cole
19. J Gray
20. Itoje
21. Webb
22. Sexton
23. Seymour

Who is the captain in that team is hard. My confidence in AWJ was shaken in the game against Scotland, Warburton plays better when he's not got the added pressure. I'd never take Hartley because IMO he's a bit antagonistic.

Farrell jumps out as a sensible choice but I don't know how he'd deal with the pressure of being captain and kicking.

edited because I'm a muppet Thanks for pointing out my incompetence Sgt

[captain carrantuohil]

Pretty fair side, that and wouldn't disagree with most of it. Owens is an interesting one; he's been good and so much will depend on whether Hartley gets the gig as captain, which he almost certainly will if England do go back-to-back as Slam winners. Conversely, if AW-J isn't captain (and he shouldn't be after the non-captaincy show v the Scots), he wouldn't be in my starting 15. The locks, whichever two you want to choose, have to be English, in my view.

May be showing my partiality here but would still pick Sexton at 10 over Ford - the rest of your back line is spot, although think you may have just a few too many people on your bench, mind! Might want just a shade more impact from the finishers - perhaps a Mako rather than a Healy, but I'm nit-picking now.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Farrell jumps out as a sensible choice but I don't know how he'd deal with the pressure of being captain and kicking.

Really? If that guy feels pressure I've not seen evidence of it.

Has he even captained his club though? It's a big ask to be the captain of a Lions series. I know Geech did it with MJ, but as much as I rate Farrell I think I'd rather he went out there and focuses on what he does well instead of bearing the burden of being a lions Captain which is as much a political role as anything else.

I think there should be a tour captain, and a captain picked from the best players to form the test side. If the tour captain is not selected for the tests he could be the water boy and offer advice and relay messages onto the pitch if needed.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Pretty fair side, that and wouldn't disagree with most of it. Owens is an interesting one; he's been good and so much will depend on whether Hartley gets the gig as captain, which he almost certainly will if England do go back-to-back as Slam winners. Conversely, if AW-J isn't captain (and he shouldn't be after the non-captaincy show v the Scots), he wouldn't be in my starting 15. The locks, whichever two you want to choose, have to be English, in my view.

May be showing my partiality here but would still pick Sexton at 10 over Ford - the rest of your back line is spot, although think you may have just a few too many people on your bench, mind! Might want just a shade more impact from the finishers - perhaps a Mako rather than a Healy, but I'm nit-picking now.

Before Saturday I would have picked Fraser Brown, but his brain fart on saturday has pushed him out of the test team. I still think he has a decent chance of touring, provided he isn't banned and gets to show a decent performance this weekend or next weekend for Glasgow against Sarries. Mako and Healy was a coin toss to be fair.

Sexton shook my confidence a bit against Wales, Ireland didn't attack very well at all whereas Ford and Farrell tore Scotland to pieces. A Scotland defence that leaked more tries in the first 50 minutes than they did all tournament.

[captain carrantuohil]

I actually thought that Sexton's thought processes seemed light years ahead of the rest of his fellow backs at times, RR. We've two good centres but they're not gelling as a partnership and we just haven't got the gas of most of the rest of the NH out wide at the moment. Add in Murray's injury, which could have been inexcusably worsened by the decision to leave him on for that long, and I reckon that Jonny did his best to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Ford's a lovely player who sees space on a rugby pitch that others don't but he'll have few more luxurious platforms from which to show off his skills. I'd certainly hope that the time granted to him oin saturday won't be available against Ireland.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I think we can all learn a lot from the way Eddie Jones has used the England bench this 6N....imapct, impact, impact!!!

Get the big carrying options in there, player that are going to up the tempo rather than stiffle it. So with that in mind.....

16. Mako - best LH bench available in the NH, if not world rugby
17. Furlong - Another big carrying option (I wouldn't have Cole on the bench tbh)
18. George - Proved his worth numerous times
19. Lawes/Itoje - tough choice
20. Haskell - Always great from the bench, or possibly SOB
21. Webb - Always ups the tempo, or Youngs
22. Henshaw - Great impact player covering numerous positions
23. Watson - Is there a faster back 3 player?

[robbo277]

I personally think picking a first test team is very bold at this stage. I can just about get on board with tourists now, but so much will depend on how players perform on tour.

I think similar to the 2013 squad, we'll see one team (England) taken on mass. I think there were 15 Welsh players in the 2013 squad, which was the starting 15 + Tipuric - Biggar.

If I were Gatland, given what I've got and how things are going, I'd be trying to build a team capable of playing "the England way" - so power in the forwards, playmakers at 10 and 12 and pace in the backs. Most of my picks would therefore be with this in mind.

Looking at England, you would potentially take the starting team, a couple of extra tight 5 players and maybe lose a back row and/or a back three. So potentially: Marler, Mako Vunipola, Hartley, George, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje, Billy Vunipola, Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly to give 15.

Other players I'd definitely want to take regardless of anything else would be: Furlong, Stander, Warburton, Murray, Webb, Sexton, Henshaw, North, Williams, Hogg, Seymour. That gives 26.

With about 10 more spots, you probably need an entire extra front row, another lock and another 2 back-row players, a utility forward, a 10/12 playmaking option, a centre and a back three. These positions are more open for me, with a large number of players in contention.

[Gooseberry]

So just to clarify Warburton is now a better player than both Moriarty and Tipuric despite the last two years of Welsh supporters posts?

I have a hard time keeping up with fashion.

[Scottrf]

So just to clarify Warburton is now a better player than both Moriarty and Tipuric despite the last two years of Welsh supporters posts?

I have a hard time keeping up with fashion.

Until the next game.

[George Carlin]

So just to clarify Warburton is now a better player than both Moriarty and Tipuric despite the last two years of Welsh supporters posts?

I have a hard time keeping up with fashion.

Until the next game.

He was this morning. 

But there's some new 7 at Cross Keys that it's fashionable to get excited about, so I'm reserving my position until I see him. 

[RDW]

For what it's worth in my mind at least the squad is starting to take shape, with some spots still up for grabs:

LH - McGrath, Vunipola +1 of Marler or Evans
TH - Furlong, Cole +1 of Francis or Fagerson (long shot)
Additional prop - Healey

Hooker - Best, Hartley, George

SR - Launchbury, AWJ, Itoje + 2/3 of Lawes, Gray, Gray, Toner

BR - Stander, Warbuton, Vunipola + 3 of Tupiric, Faletau, SoB, Robshaw, Heaslip, Barclay (long shot)

SH - Murray, Webb + 1 of Youngs, Laidlaw, Care

FH - Sexton + 1 of Biggar, Ford

Centre - Farrell (10 cover), Henshaw, Joseph + 2 of Williams, Davies, Jones, Ringrose (both long shots)

Back 3 - Hogg, Williams, North + 3 of Seymour, Maitland. Zebo. Nowell, Watson

[majesticimperialman]

RDW Regards full back i think Mike Brown will /should be in with a chance.

Scrum Half personaly at this moment i do not think Laidlaw will be on tour.

Regards the rest i won't argue with.

[RDW]

RDW Regards full back i think Mike Brown will /should be in with a chance.

Scrum Half personaly at this moment i do not think Laidlaw will be on tour.

Regards the rest i won't argue with.

He is with in a chance but if Hogg and Williams tour as many people expect then I don't think we need a specialist fullback as well.

I agree that Laidlaw is probably a long shot but with Murray/Webb the outstanding choices for the test team he might be picked as a good tourist who is a strong leader for the group.

[RDW]

Just realised I've completely forgotten about Daly- I would definintely pick him for his versatility to cover centre and the entire back 3.

[funnyExiledScot]

For what it's worth in my mind at least the squad is starting to take shape, with some spots still up for grabs:

LH - McGrath, Vunipola +1 of Marler or Evans
TH - Furlong, Cole + Sinckler1 of Francis or Fagerson (long shot)
Additional prop - Healey

Hooker - Best, Hartley, George

SR - Launchbury, AWJ, Itoje + 2/3 of Lawes and J Gray, Gray, Toner

BR - Stander, Warbuton, Vunipola + 3 of Tupiric, Faletau, SoB and Haskell, Robshaw, Heaslip, Barclay (long shot)

SH - Murray, Webb + 1 of Youngs, Laidlaw, Care

FH - Sexton + 1 of Biggar, Ford

Centre - Farrell (10 cover), Henshaw, Joseph + 2 of Williams, Davies,and Daly Jones, Ringrose (both long shots)

Back 3 - Hogg, Williams, North + 3 of Seymour, Maitland. Zebo. Nowell, Watson

This is a pretty decent stab. I've thrown in my adds.

I'd be tempted to take an extra specialist centre, possibly Huw Jones or Scott Williams. I also really rate Iain Henderson but can't find room.

I find myself debating Biggar vs Ford constantly and struggle to make up my mind. Biggar is the big game test match animal, but Ford is just so talented. Really tough one.

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