Ireland 6 Nations chat

First topic message reminder :

Geoff on the Ulster thread created a clever analysis on squad depth and I am taking a crack at a similar one for Ireland in advance of the 6 nations:

My assumptions are based on a squad of 36 (not the 40 Joe named last year). Players categories into 4 ratings:

World class = top three in position in world, and/or Lions test starter
International class = would make the team for other tier 1 nations
Below international class - would not make the team for other tier 1 nations
Exciting prospect - show potential to be a real asset

Ideally we have one world class and 2 international class per position.

TH (3)
World class - Furlong
International class - Ryan
Exciting prospect - Porter

Assessment - Drop off after Furlong, but not as steep as with hooker

Hooker (3)
International class - Best, Cronin (instead of Tracy)
Below international class - Herring

Assessment - Our weakest forward position, with a big drop off after Best

LH (3)
World class - McGrath (Lions bench for all three tests, scrapes in here)
International class - Healy, Kilcoyne

Assessment - Most consistently strong position in front row, all three are great players and Healy may well rereach his world class heights in 2018. Add in Moore and its a great position for us

Lock (5)
International class - Henderson, Toner
Below international class - Dillane, Roux (instead of Treadwell)
Exciting prospect - Ryan

Assessment - good first team pair, with some exciting prospects coming through.

Flankers (6)
World class - POM
International class - VDF, Murphy (Instead of TOD, Ruddock and SOB out due to injury)
Exciting prospect - Leavy

Assessment - embarrasment of riches!

No. 8 (2)
International class - Stander, Conan
Assessment - Very strong, with multiple flankers also able to play there

Scrumhalf (3)
World class - Murray
Below international class - Marmion, McGrath

Assessment - big drop off after Murray. Marmion/McGrath neither have been able to fully translate provincial form to ireland

Flyhalf (3)
World class - Sexton
Below international class - Keatley
Exciting prospect - Carberry

Assessment - Sexton staying fit is essential to winning in Twickenham, the drop off after that is huge.

Centers (5)
International class - Henshaw, Aki,
Below international class -  Farrell
Exciting prospect -Scannell (Instead of Ringrose and McCloskey)

Assessment - strong, if not the most exciting group of players.

Wings (5)
International class - Earls
Below international class - Conway, McFadden (Instead of Byrne, Sweetnam)
Exciting prospect - Stockdale

Assessment - some exciting young players coming through, but think Earls will start

Fullback (2)
International class - Kearney
Exciting prospect - Larmour

Assessment - Kearney continues to show his class in the big games and will start 3/4 of the 6 nations, I think Larmour has a good shot of starting the others. TOH if not.

Yep - Earls showing just how committed you have to be in that International shirt - at all times.  As other players were probably saying: "well, that's it, they're bloody going to score another one. But, sure, we're still well in the lead, like", Exocet Earls was already on his way, preparing his angle of attack and hunting for his target.  Man showing boys that you never turn off or give up.

My top moment of the game.  A try save.  Every bit as symbolic of one player as the cool drop kick was of another the week before.
We have to tighten up this back door because right now and for quite a time there has been a big draught getting in - and mostly when we try to play a bit of open rugby ourselves.  We're trapped by our own reputation.  Teams know that our 'attack' is always going to be rustier than theirs but they hope that we give enough time to it so that they can find those gaps that aren't so apparent when we play our usual boring brick wall game.

To think it - we've had the last of our 'easy' games - it's all defend, defend, defend from here on in unless we get one or two more genuine 'playmakers' into the side to make us less predictable; playmakers to play WITH the A team, from the beginning - not in as part of Rookie Kindergarten Club during the last 15 or 20 minutes.

SecretFly wrote:
My top moment of the game.  A try save.  Every bit as symbolic of one player as the cool drop kick was of another the week before.

Yeah it was a massive moment, similar to Sextons drop goal last week, these are the things you look back on over the course of the season if we do go on and win something.

Like I really like where this team is at the the minute, the performances are far from perfect but that belief and work ethic that Schmidt has instilled just makes us so difficult to beat and much more consistent than in the past.

There's a very strong leadership group with Sexton, Best, Earls, Kearney, Henshaw, O'Mahoney etc. alongside the young guys so it is a very good mix.

I'm not certain that this will be our year but I have a feeling if it isn't that next season might just be special.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Hey Billy tell us (again) what your opinion of Earls as centre is. This is a site for opinions (ahem) after all.

No problem, I do not think he is as good a 13 as he once was. I think that he has developed even more as a winger and should stay on the wing as he is Irelands best wing. I know you are fishing for some controversy but hey, it is my opinion and does not mean you or anyone have to agree with me. As you say, this site is for opinions...

Well, the only way next year gets to be special is if we have the players that can prove they have the mental meat to drive themselves through these weeks and get what they want now.

We damn near let the French game slip - only magic saved that from being one loss down. In my mind I'm regarding it as a loss, because Ireland played bad enough to lose. So we must be cautious about what is to come.

We let in three tries against a team that we were killing at the weekend. The two or three anchor players left the field and with them, it seemed, too much coordination and control. If we have pretensions of anything then that disparity between stalwarts and replacements must be worked on still. It was only Italy but all the more reason why I was rattled at how easily Ireland's rhythm disintegrated on the turn over.

We have now a solid run against three unrelenting, attack based sides.  We'll be tested in all departments now for longer durations and at a heavier tempo; and with no tiring off periods evident in their gameplans.  
These sides aren't going to disimprove next year.  So any upgrade in us will be matched by upgrades in other neighbouring Nations.

It's never easy.  But we can now make it easier with some small tweaks to the machine.  It has a belligerent underbelly - in my mind, the toughest in the competition - but it needs to garnish the tough centre with gold nuggets around the edge.  Time for a more creative 15.  For certain, it's time.  Joe knows the day has to come but he's stalling it.  He can't stall it.  We're already in the war that will take us to the WC battlefield.  This machine has to be honed now - not later.  First progress report must be a new version of 15 to assist our 9 and 10 and give more coaching headaches to our opponents.  

ps. It's noticeable the reaction from posters in other countries too.  They all think Ireland pretty much was ruthless doing the business and the three tries we let in aren't really an issue for them.  This is because that was a 'style' of rugby our neighbours all like - risk rugby that might allow in a few tries but rugby that scores more than your opponent does.

I don't think we're slick enough/practiced enough in attack to fall for that kind of blueprint yet.  So the tight shop has to be our way forward for now, until we are serious about giving Ireland the players any team requires to turn attack into a consistent weapon.

No suprise but henshaw to miss the rest of the tournament after shoulder surgery.
But furlong and Conan expected to be available for the Wales game

carpet baboon wrote:No suprise but henshaw to miss the rest of the tournament after shoulder surgery.
But furlong and Conan expected to be available for the Wales game

So, who comes in at 13 now?

Furlong back is great news,

The press on Sunday were all saying Farrell. But I'm still not convinced on him

Hasn't Sam Arnold been training with the national team? Don't think it would be him but Joe may spring a suprise or two

carpet baboon wrote:Hasn't Sam Arnold been training with the national team? Don't think it would be him but Joe may spring a suprise or two

He'll waste one of those surprises on the surprise he'll give himself that he's about to drop a surprise on us.

carpet baboon wrote:No suprise but henshaw to miss the rest of the tournament after shoulder surgery.
But furlong and Conan expected to be available for the Wales game

Mindgames !

carpet baboon wrote:The press on Sunday were all saying Farrell. But I'm still not convinced on him

Schmidt seems to rate him so he must have something about him. It will be a very physical midfield anyways with him and Aki.

Is Ringrose still injured?

rodders wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:The press on Sunday were all saying Farrell. But I'm still not convinced on him

Schmidt seems to rate him so he must have something about him. It will be a very physical midfield anyways with him and Aki.

Is Ringrose still injured?

Think ringrose is back training but hadn't played yet.

And it would be very physical, but do we need that against Wales?

carpet baboon wrote:

rodders wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:The press on Sunday were all saying Farrell. But I'm still not convinced on him

Schmidt seems to rate him so he must have something about him. It will be a very physical midfield anyways with him and Aki.

Is Ringrose still injured?

Think ringrose is back training but hadn't played yet.

And it would be very physical, but do we need that against Wales?

Ok, I'll bite, why wouldn't you ?

I'd have thought physicality would be handy to have against anyone?

Personally I'd prefer to have Ringrose back but he was a bit off the pace there after his last come back. Hopefully he can return at some stage in the tournament.

Farrell I'm not convinced but he's looked good for Munster in recent games.

munkian wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

rodders wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:The press on Sunday were all saying Farrell. But I'm still not convinced on him

Schmidt seems to rate him so he must have something about him. It will be a very physical midfield anyways with him and Aki.

Is Ringrose still injured?

Think ringrose is back training but hadn't played yet.

And it would be very physical, but do we need that against Wales?

Ok, I'll bite, why wouldn't you ?

Em...why not look on the bright side and interpret it as a compliment - ie. it might be better for Ireland to have something creative to try and cope with the creativity Wales will be bringing? As in maybe blunt force won't be enough against these Welsh whizztastic players?

SecretFly wrote:

munkian wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

rodders wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:The press on Sunday were all saying Farrell. But I'm still not convinced on him

Schmidt seems to rate him so he must have something about him. It will be a very physical midfield anyways with him and Aki.

Is Ringrose still injured?

Think ringrose is back training but hadn't played yet.

And it would be very physical, but do we need that against Wales?

Ok, I'll bite, why wouldn't you ?

Em...why not look on the bright side and interpret it as a compliment - ie.  it might be better for Ireland to have something creative to try and cope with the creativity Wales will be bringing?  As in maybe blunt force won't be enough against these Welsh whizztastic players?

Parks and Scott Williams is why. I think they are both fantastic players and both very physica and both great defendersl, and would rather we didn't get Into a who's centers are bigger and tried a bit more subtle approach.
Wales is always a hard brutal match. also I'm not sure of Farrell's defence.
At the start of the season it was pretty suspect. Not seen him recently so happy to be corrected

So I been thinking.......................


and the Question is: Would Joe? Would he?........................................................................

SecretFly wrote:So I been thinking.......................


and the Question is:  Would Joe?  Would he?........................................................................

If the question is " would be expect gatland to prepare his team for the Irish tight controlled game we are perceived to play and instead unleash a all out free flowing attacking rugby from the gods style" then the answer is ..........probably not but by God I would love that

...that's a good one that carpet ...and to tell the truth, that one comes up in my head before every Irish game. I keep hoping and thinking Joe is going to one fine day spring an unrecognisable Ireland on the world, with all the little pieces now being joined together in a monster show of bling and boom!

but yes.........it's not the question I was thinking of.

No, I was thinking about whether Joe might relent and let a little love back into his life, pick up the phone and invite poor Simon back into the fold for one last good fight together before Zebo fecks off to France. It is February.

Luke Marshall played a blinder last night, in a largely poor side
I have never seen Farrell play as well as that, and I have watched him a lot

Marshall will not be selected though

Why would he not be selected Geoff? He is a very good player when on form and if on form should certainly be in Schmidt's considerations.

Anyone watching the Cardiff - Munster game will almost certainly see why Keatley has not been considered for the bench for Ireland. Two kicks out on the full (one from the restart) has directly led to two Cardiff try's. Not sure why he was laughing either.

Sam Arnold, slightly tipped to play 13 for Ireland in Henshaw's absence is not putting his hand up either.

Must win for us. Feeling much more confident that Liam, North and Half will be fit for next weekend; would love to see Biggar and Faletau back but am very confident in our tight 5. I expect the same attritive play up front from Ireland but I think we have the edge this time. With no SOB or Henshaw even more confident we will sneak it by a whisker. But I still think it will be Ireland not Scots that show the English that they are nowhere near where they think they are. We will beat France comfortably and hammer the Italians so it will be a 3 way tourney by the last weekend with Wales winning.

Like Marshall maybe plays too much off the cuff rugby. Farrell is someone who follows the playbook to the letter.

Farrell is someone who drops the ball in contact - if he gets selected Id be targeting him
Marshall has a skill set that is streets head of Farrell
Marshall is perfectly capable of following instructions - conversely a little inspiration and off the cuff is sometimes required.
BOD did well on it and Ringrose is also an exponent

Eirebilly Id pick him - my contention is Joe wont

We have to give Wales all the respect in the world. We have to meet them with our most intense rugby - the rugby we'd bring to a home game against the ABs. Treat them with respect and try to absolutely blow them off the field with controlled aggression and surprise 'creativity'.

If we let Wales stay in this game then they'll obviously get their feet under them and confidence will allow them try things all the way to the end. Strangle them. Put their playmakers under heaps of pressure and drive, drive, drive.

I would not be surprised to see Larmour play 13 myself, he is from Leinster. Shoe in

Yeah...and to think the young whippersnapper wouldn't get into either Munster, Ulster or Connacht. In the words of PhillBB.......'disgraceful!".

There is thought behind my joke Fly, actually think Larmour would not be too bad as a 13. Seems to have that way about him. Defensively not so good (very important at 13 for Ireland) yet but that will come.

If Schmidt was going to try that, billy, he should have done it in the Italian game. Against a Gatland led Wales? Hmmm. Not so sure we want to give Gatland an opportunity to kill off any growing enthusiasm for International in Larmour.

That's what these opposition coaches are about too. They don't want meeting Ireland's best players come the old WC, they want to help Joe pick ordinary but reliable.

Anyway, the problem for Ireland - or a problem (one of quite a few I suppose) - is that anything creative is pushed out onto the fringes where, let's face it, they're mostly wasted as the true creativity to release players on the edges should be coming from 15, 12, 13, 9 and 10.

Carbery (or Larmour) should be getting 15 now.

All I am saying is that Larmour looks like the kind of player that would suit the 13 role, not right now but I believe he has that potential.

I have a feeling Schmidt will put Earls at 13 though. Earls can do a job there effectively but I feel he is far more potent on the wing than in the midfield so it would be a mistake to start him at 13. Would really love to see Marshall at 13 myself.

But he already suits 15 is my point.  But Kearney keeps getting the call.  If Kearney loses form or gets seriously injured... this is a WC lead-in.  If Joe is constantly saying to alternatives that he doesn't trust them enough for big games then he'll have work to do to make them believe him when necessity requires him to tell them he was lying and that they are now perfect.

Whoever replaces Kearney long term will by natural instinct and ability have Ireland playing a different version of rugby.  Now the difference might be subtle but I don't think it will be.  But even if it is subtle, that's how central the role of 15 is - he can necessarily change the way a team plays because of his own unique style.

So................... when is Joe going to allow a different way to bed down?  We keep putting it off and off and off and using the excuse that every competition (whether 6N or AIs) is always too important to really get going on a way of playing that might be forced on us anyway through a long term absence of Kearney from injury or bad form.

Agreed he is our new 15

Stephen Jones in the Times today reckons the predicted ‘collision’ match against England won’t happen now with ‘two of Ireland’s three key players’ out through injury - Henshaw and Furlong. He’s obviously not getting injury updates.

The match against Wales is the tougher one psychologically in my view. Wales getting their proper back three onto the pitch and presumably Anscombe will be shifted to 10 after his display against England.

The Welsh always give 20% extra against Ireland and no doubt there’ll be some ‘grudges’ real or imagined dredged up by media this week eg O’Brien’s disrespect for Howley, voting for SA, 20th anniversary of getting fired by the IRFU, is Ireland a real country anyway, Wales are going for three in a row, Scarlets won the Pro 14 and smashed Leinster and Munster en route, all they do is kick, Schmidt doesn’t like potato and leek soup, irish stew is just mutton dressed up as lamb, retorts Gatland.

Should be fun.

Jesus, Pot.  You're making my mouth water.

Funny post. Enjoyed that.  True - but funny.

geoff999rugby wrote:Luke Marshall played a blinder last night, in a largely poor side
I have never seen Farrell play as well as that, and I have watched him a lot

Marshall will not be selected though

Farrell was in the top 14 team of the season last year. Farrell better suited to the bosh rugby too.

geoff999rugby wrote:Farrell is someone who drops the ball in contact - if he gets selected Id be targeting him
Marshall has a skill set that is streets head of Farrell
Marshall is perfectly capable of following instructions - conversely a little inspiration and off the cuff is sometimes required.
BOD did well on it and Ringrose is also an exponent

Eirebilly Id pick him - my contention is Joe wont

Agree with all of that Geoff, but don't think Joe does.

profitius wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Luke Marshall played a blinder last night, in a largely poor side
I have never seen Farrell play as well as that, and I have watched him a lot

Marshall will not be selected though

Farrell was in the top 14 team of the season last year.  Farrell better suited to the bosh rugby too.

Which to me only shows how stupid those teams are.
He was nowhere near the best centres in France last year - not even close.

Is Keith Earls the fastest player in the 6Ns and not just Ireland? For that try saving tackle v. Italy, he clocked 9.7 m per second on his GPS. His previous personal best was v Castres this year 10.5.

(From interview in Sunday Times yesterday)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/keith-earls-i-take-a-more-chilled-attitude-to-rugby-now-and-it-seems-to-be-working-89jn30jpr

He also has an extraordinary spring in his legs.

Again, he can provide empirical evidence of the spring in his legs. A couple of years ago, he recorded a counter-movement jump (a standing jump in layman’s terms) of 64cm, which is exceptional.

He's a gazelle and he don't even know it.

Too few posts from you too, Sin. Place is dying without my daily Sin fix.

It was some takedown............... and the calm calculation of it was sublime.

Sin é wrote:Is Keith Earls the fastest player in the 6Ns and not just Ireland? For that try saving tackle v. Italy, he clocked 9.7 m per second on his GPS. His previous personal best was v Castres this year 10.5.  

(From interview in Sunday Times yesterday)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/keith-earls-i-take-a-more-chilled-attitude-to-rugby-now-and-it-seems-to-be-working-89jn30jpr

He also has an extraordinary spring in his legs.

Again, he can provide empirical evidence of the spring in his legs. A couple of years ago, he recorded a counter-movement jump (a standing jump in layman’s terms) of 64cm, which is exceptional.

In most other spheres of science 10.5 m/s is faster than 9.7 m/s, but at least it explains why Anthony Horgan was so highly rated as a winger at Munster with his record 5m/s!

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:Is Keith Earls the fastest player in the 6Ns and not just Ireland? For that try saving tackle v. Italy, he clocked 9.7 m per second on his GPS. His previous personal best was v Castres this year 10.5.  

(From interview in Sunday Times yesterday)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/keith-earls-i-take-a-more-chilled-attitude-to-rugby-now-and-it-seems-to-be-working-89jn30jpr

He also has an extraordinary spring in his legs.

Again, he can provide empirical evidence of the spring in his legs. A couple of years ago, he recorded a counter-movement jump (a standing jump in layman’s terms) of 64cm, which is exceptional.

In most other spheres of science 10.5 m/s is faster than 9.7 m/s, but at least it explains why Anthony Horgan was so highly rated as a winger at Munster with his record 5m/s!

Thanks for that. Seemingly, he was wind assisted in the Castres game (according to Simon Zebo )

SecretFly wrote:He's a gazelle and he don't even know it.  

Too few posts from you too, Sin.  Place is dying without my daily Sin fix.

You féic off every now and then. I'm staying away because I want to avoid kicking the poor Nordies when they are down!

Yeah. It's not a time for picking on the Nordies. Every which way you look at them, either in sport, court or politics....they're having a tough few months/year.

Oh well, when Rory scores two sensational running tries against Wales next week, the spring sun might finally shine on them.

Cooney in the squad I hear

Interesting fact for you all. Munster are having a good season, Ulster a very poor one

Munster season so far - 4 European wins, 9 Pro14 wins
Ulster season so far - 4 European wins, 9 Pro14 wins

Funny that

Geoff. Please stop using facts.

geoff999rugby wrote:Cooney in the squad I hear

Interesting fact for you all. Munster are having a good season, Ulster a very poor one

Munster season so far - 4 European wins, 9 Pro14 wins
Ulster season so far - 4 European wins, 9 Pro14 wins

Funny that

Yeah but....no but.....yeah but.... no but..... just shows you how powerful perception is. But whisper it... don't want Lord showing up with his diksionery..

geoff999rugby wrote:Cooney in the squad I hear

Interesting fact for you all. Munster are having a good season, Ulster a very poor one

Munster season so far - 4 European wins, 9 Pro14 wins
Ulster season so far - 4 European wins, 9 Pro14 wins

Funny that

Who is claiming Munster are having a good season? I don't think Munster have anyway. Done well in Europe with just 1 loss though. All your comment reveals that there is a thin line between failure and success. What is interesting though is that Ulster have lost 5 games in the Pro12 to Munster's 6 losses! All those Munster bonus point wins come in handy.

A few on the Munster forum seem happy enough as to how the season has progressed.
Almost certainly in the top two in the Conference and in the European QFs

The big difference seems to be the Ulster conference, at least in my opinion, has the two best teams in the Pro14 but also the worst two.
The net effect has been a higher points total seems to be required to meet the play off and European requirements