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England or Ireland - Who will win the six nations?

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Who will win the six nations?

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Total Votes : 57
 
 

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Post by GunsGerms Tue 11 Mar 2014, 8:52 pm

As much as I like them because France will more than likely have to beat Ireland by more than 50 points (if England beat Italy by 20 plus) they arent likely to win the championship.

So who will win? England or Ireland and why?

Some facts and figures:

-Ireland have won once in Paris in approx 40 years. They got a draw there last time they played there.

-England are the only team never to have been defeated in the six nations by Italy.

-It was 15-19 to England on their last visit to Italy. Their record points margin win in Italy is 47 points in 2000.

-Ireland have a 49 points cushion over England.

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Post by Biltong Tue 11 Mar 2014, 8:56 pm

I am hoping Ireland does it.

I believe they can as they have played the best attacking rugby in the tournament, and I believe they can indeed go and beat France
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Post by lostinwales Tue 11 Mar 2014, 8:57 pm

Ireland. They also have control over their own destiny. If they fail they will only have themselves to blame.

It should have been an England grand slam but we messed up in France. For all the huff and puff there have only been two teams in it this year, and however things finish they should be 1 and 2 in the table

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Post by Scratch Tue 11 Mar 2014, 9:01 pm

If Ireland win it will be deserved and will put their defeat to England in the right perspective.

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Post by Portnoy's Complaint Tue 11 Mar 2014, 9:04 pm

I've got a brain and I engage in facts not propaganda.

I just don't know.

My heart plus brain plus being a massive francophile tells me that England will win.

My heart alone would tell me that England will put it beyond Ireland's grasp even before BOD crashes into Sexton who then breaks his leg.

I abstain.


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Post by Biltong Tue 11 Mar 2014, 9:05 pm

Sadly I didn't see the Ireland vs England game, just saw the score was very close
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Post by stub Tue 11 Mar 2014, 9:05 pm

I think France will somehow contrive to win against Ireland but I doubt it will be by much. Therefore I can see England sneaking the Championship - if they don't slip up against the Italians that is!

It's potentially going to be an exciting finish...

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Post by Biltong Tue 11 Mar 2014, 9:17 pm

The Irish are going to be very highly motivated for this test, they want to send O'Driscoll off in style, they want to pull this one through for all the second places they have had over the last 14 years of Six Nations.

Even if the Frnech do stand up in this match, I don't think it will be enough.
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 11 Mar 2014, 9:17 pm

Really it comes down to the result of the France game. England have more chance of losing to Italy than they do putting more than 50 on them.

Historicaly we can see Ireland have almost always come up short in France, but this is an appalling French side in a mess. They usually have one good game in them though, and we commonly see teams come badly unstuck in the last game.

So ummm dunno. I cant see it being a classic weekend, but it should be a nail biter.


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Post by GunsGerms Tue 11 Mar 2014, 9:24 pm

I actually wouldnt be surprised if France or Ireland win by a big margin. If it is a close game though I reckon France will squeeze through somehow.

I also wouldnt be surprised if England win by 50 plus points especially given that Italy had to make a world record of over 200 tackles v Ireland. Though equally Italy with Parisse and Zanni coming back could have what it takes to make it really tough for England.

Basically I havent a clue what is going to happen.

However, given that Italy rested two key players and have never beaten England are they going to go all guns blazing against England in a bid to finally have defeated all 6 nations teams?

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Post by Barney McGrew did it Tue 11 Mar 2014, 10:25 pm

Oh for gawd's sake there is absolutely no chance that France will win. They are in a Gallic sulk because they've finally realized they are carp. And beating England will have done very nicely thank you. Bonjour.
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Post by bedfordwelsh Tue 11 Mar 2014, 10:29 pm

I did chuckle when watching Gareth Llewellyn on Scrum V wheh he said gid know how France are still in with chance because they are awful, but they are still in with chance lol.
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Post by LondonTiger Wed 12 Mar 2014, 7:13 am

Biltong wrote:
I believe they can as they have played the best attacking rugby in the tournament, and I believe they can indeed go and beat France

I believe Ireland will secure a win in Paris and thus the title. However I believe it will be primarily because, as usual for a tournament winner, they had the best defence. Conceded fewest tries, and been excellent at avoiding coughing up penalties within kicking distance.



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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 12 Mar 2014, 7:40 am

Apparently Mas has had a big strop now as well. Its either going to be more of the same dross from France or a massive backlash.

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Post by Geordie Wed 12 Mar 2014, 8:38 am

Scratch wrote:If Ireland win it will be deserved and will put their defeat to England in the right perspective.

I disagree...England have given up a grandslam by falling asleep in France, and were good for their win against ireland. Of course that wont change your green tinted glasses will it.

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 12 Mar 2014, 8:43 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Scratch wrote:If Ireland win it will be deserved and will put their defeat to England in the right perspective.

I disagree...England have given up a grandslam by falling asleep in France, and were good for their win against ireland. Of course that wont change your green tinted glasses will it.

If Ireland win they will deserve the title. Hell if France win the title they will deserve it because they will have beaten the two other contenders.

As to the other point, well he is a bitter red tinted glasses man. Not seen many (just one?) Irish poster moaning about their loss.

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Post by Geordie Wed 12 Mar 2014, 8:50 am

LT, It was the
will put their defeat to England in the right perspective
, that got my attention. Brings what into perspective? That England were the better side and beat Ireland? Yes.

I know i should not rise to Scratches bait...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 12 Mar 2014, 8:54 am

Not looking at history and the like but basing it on the actual teams playing I would be very surprised if France won against Ireland. They're just not very good at the moment.

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Post by Breadvan Wed 12 Mar 2014, 8:57 am

Italy are at home and are going to want to avoid the spoon, finally beating England.  warning 
Eng need to win to stand a chance of the title, full of confidence with an unchanged side.  Very Happy 
France, different side at home, want to end on high to avoid a media grilling. Players unhappy, PSA under pressure?  Headscratch 
Ireland just win and its theirs. Huge points difference. Lets win it for BOD etc.  king 



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Post by Geordie Wed 12 Mar 2014, 9:05 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not looking at history and the like but basing it on the actual teams playing I would be very surprised if France won against Ireland. They're just not very good at the moment.

Thats true, the problem with that is that aside from Wales...they HAVE beaten everyone else despite playing badly. What if they turn up and pull out that performance we all know is in there somewhere?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 12 Mar 2014, 9:10 am

Do we know it's there? There's a continued vein of thought that France are either brilliant or woeful, frankly I think they're just average. France can win but it'll take a fair bit of luck or a poor Ireland performance for it to happen.

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Post by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 12 Mar 2014, 9:11 am

Having slept on it, I've decided not to be a wussy Don't Know.

Today, Matthew, I voting for
























































Ireland.

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Post by Geordie Wed 12 Mar 2014, 9:17 am

I think France will beat Ireland, by a decent score...England will then not need such a big victory over Italy, and will take the title.

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Post by beshocked Wed 12 Mar 2014, 9:19 am

It's up to the French. They will have two of their best players back - Picamoles and Szarzewski.

They are at home and the Irish do have a poor record vs France.

If Ireland can get ahead early on I cannot see France finding the response needed to overhaul them - just not mentally strong enough.

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Post by Scrumpy Wed 12 Mar 2014, 9:22 am

Ireland will win, their defence is too good to be undone by a poor French team, unless Ireland throw in a couple of new caps and the Ball bounces in France's favour.

To be honest Ireland would derserve it, but I think if two teams finish level on points it should always go to the team who won the head to head Wink 

Not that I'm Bitter.  guinness
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Post by san Wed 12 Mar 2014, 9:24 am

I voted England, 'cos I didn't want to hex Ireland!  Fingers Crossed

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Post by rodders Wed 12 Mar 2014, 9:24 am

I believe Ireland will beat France, and more comfortably than many are anticipating- possibly by 2 scores or more.

If we don't, which wouldn't surprise me either, then England would be very worth 6N champions. They are an excellent side.
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Post by Geordie Wed 12 Mar 2014, 9:27 am

rodders wrote:I believe Ireland will beat France, and more comfortably than many are anticipating- possibly by 2 scores or more.

If we don't, which wouldn't surprise me either, then England would be very worth 6N champions. They are an excellent side.

At least it if its Ireland or England it means its not Wales....and we can all cope with that  Very Happy Wink England or Ireland - Who will win the six nations? 1347041234 

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Post by rodders Wed 12 Mar 2014, 9:29 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
rodders wrote:I believe Ireland will beat France, and more comfortably than many are anticipating- possibly by 2 scores or more.

If we don't, which wouldn't surprise me either, then England would be very worth 6N champions. They are an excellent side.

At least it if its Ireland or England it means its not Wales....and we can all cope with that  Very Happy Wink England or Ireland - Who will win the six nations? 1347041234 

Well on a serious note I think England and Ireland have been comfortably the best sides this year, both would be deserving winners...... although I hope its us!
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Post by Scrumpy Wed 12 Mar 2014, 10:06 am

 It will be.  Leprechaun 
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Post by doctornickolas Wed 12 Mar 2014, 10:36 am

I can't see either side losing so it's Ireland's championship for me.


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Post by doctornickolas Wed 12 Mar 2014, 10:37 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
rodders wrote:I believe Ireland will beat France, and more comfortably than many are anticipating- possibly by 2 scores or more.

If we don't, which wouldn't surprise me either, then England would be very worth 6N champions. They are an excellent side.

At least it if its Ireland or England it means its not Wales....and we can all cope with that  Very Happy Wink England or Ireland - Who will win the six nations? 1347041234 

 warning 

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Post by TrailApe Wed 12 Mar 2014, 11:30 am

Usually I cheer the French on, but this year their approach has just left me cold. So I'll patly be hoping for an Irish win as they have played much better rugby than the French.

However that means we come second.

Now in past years I would say England has zero chance of putting on a big score against the Azzuri, however recently our Italian friends have become much more adventerous and thus more open to counter attack, so if we run them ragged, in the last twenty we might open the same floodgates that the Irish lads found the key for.

But it's in Rome.

I'm really torn about Saturday.

How about this, we just beat the Italians, the French finally wake up and score three tries however in the second half the Irish fight back, BOD scores three tries and its a draw?

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 12 Mar 2014, 11:44 am

Despite Ireland's poor record at SdF I just can't see France getting lucky 3 times in one tournament.

Ireland to beat France and England have no chance getting the requisite 60 odd points to take the title.

Silly really, given that England beat Ireland, seems a little absurd that with matching results/points the side that won the head to head is bumped into second.

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Post by kevinof Wed 12 Mar 2014, 11:52 am

Because it's a tournament and not based on a one off game. It's how the team does against the other 5 that counts, not on a single result.

TopHat24/7 wrote:...
Silly really, given that England beat Ireland, seems a little absurd that with matching results/points the side that won the head to head is bumped into second.

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 12 Mar 2014, 11:57 am

All well and good, except the winner of the tournament ends up being decided by who slapped the wooden spooners the hardest rather than who should actually be considered 'the best' - most appropriately decided by the two competitors playing each other.

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Post by rodders Wed 12 Mar 2014, 12:00 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:Silly really, given that England beat Ireland, seems a little absurd that with matching results/points the side that won the head to head is bumped into second.

Not silly at all because England had home advantage in the head to head. Everyone knows the rules going into the tournament and it seems pretty churlish to raise this now.

Does that mean if France win they should win the title rather than England?
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Post by LondonTiger Wed 12 Mar 2014, 12:03 pm

Actually if France beat Ireland, but England beat Italy and win title, you could argue France were more deserving as they would have beaten both the other two finalk weekend contenders.

Or you could argue Wales were more deserving, being the only team to beat France and unlucky to face England and Ireland away.




The genuine answer is that whoever tops the table deserves it by doing what was needed. Others may deserve some credit, but not the silverware.

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Post by dummy_half Wed 12 Mar 2014, 12:04 pm

England will end up looking back at a 6Ns of missed opportunities. Could have / should have closed out the France match, and then we'd be looking at a trip to Rome to secure the slam.

Dominant against Scotland, and the 20 point victory margin was probably 15 points less than the performance merited.

Chances went begging against Ireland, especially May's early chance. A 10+ point win might have been harsh on Ireland, but we created enough, just didn't finish moves off well.

Well in control against Wales, but somehow were only 5 points up at the half. Probably gave away 3 penalties too many in that half. And then Burrell's late effort being thwarted by 1/2p's excellent cover tackle.

So, slightly better execution and a little more luck, and England could be looking at having to rack up a 20 to 30 point margin against Italy, which would be much more within the bounds of possibility. As it stands though, I think our only hope for the Championship is France doing us a favour, which I think is only about a 10% chance.

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Post by kevinof Wed 12 Mar 2014, 12:04 pm

So with that argument you would put France as better than England because they won that match up? I wouldn't. And not it's nothing to do with the wooden spooners - Ireland has accumulated a points differential by beating all the other teams by good margins and limiting England to a 3 point margin.

TopHat24/7 wrote:All well and good, except the winner of the tournament ends up being decided by who slapped the wooden spooners the hardest rather than who should actually be considered 'the best' - most appropriately decided by the two competitors playing each other.

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 12 Mar 2014, 12:05 pm

They'd have to also have England lose to Italy to make that case, so in simple terms no.

Not trying to be churlish, realise there's a lot of baiting on these boards which is not something I'm looking to do.

It's just look at the last two for example, both decided by the winners beating the second place side.  Therefore it feels much more comfortable for them to be regarded as not just winners but unequivocal champions and best side in the tourney.

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 12 Mar 2014, 12:08 pm

kevinof wrote:So with that argument you would put France as better than England because they won that match up? I wouldn't. And not it's nothing to do with the wooden spooners - Ireland has accumulated a points differential by beating all the other teams by good margins and limiting England to a 3 point margin.

TopHat24/7 wrote:All well and good, except the winner of the tournament ends up being decided by who slapped the wooden spooners the hardest rather than who should actually be considered 'the best' - most appropriately decided by the two competitors playing each other.

No, I'm talking ceteris paribus.

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Post by rodders Wed 12 Mar 2014, 12:09 pm

You could argue a lot of things but ultimately everyone plays 5 games and whoever sits on top of the table at the end is the winner - everyone knows how it works.

Everyone knows where they stand going into the games.

If it goes down to head to head the final game becomes a dead rubber for Ireland if England win. As it is both teams have a chance albeit France a small one.

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Post by Scrumpy Wed 12 Mar 2014, 12:15 pm

But you argue that the head to head idea is unfair due to home and away fixtures, If England had played Scotland at HQ they would have scored 40+ points so using the same argument, points difference is unfair due to home and away fixtures.
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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 12 Mar 2014, 12:20 pm

rodders wrote:You could argue a lot of things but ultimately everyone plays 5 games and whoever sits on top of the table at the end is the winner - everyone knows how it works.

Everyone knows where they stand going into the games.

 

Yeh, agree it's the fairest way really, just think it's not the most conclusive (again, comparing to the last 2 tourneys).

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Post by TrailApe Wed 12 Mar 2014, 12:22 pm

You could argue a lot of things but ultimately everyone plays 5 games and whoever sits on top of the table at the end is the winner - everyone knows how it works

Totally agree, and if Ireland squeak the title by by 0.5 points difference they deserve it



(of course it will be then, a devalued competition Wink and 'somebody' will claim a moral victory)
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England or Ireland - Who will win the six nations? Empty Re: England or Ireland - Who will win the six nations?

Post by wrfc1980 Wed 12 Mar 2014, 12:30 pm

England really should be playing for the slam. They have been the best team this 6 nations and have outplayed EVERY team they have come up against. Two unfortunate bounces of the ball have robbed them of the title. Ireland have been good but were ouplayed by England.

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Post by Scrumpy Wed 12 Mar 2014, 12:37 pm

wrfc1980 wrote:England really should be playing for the slam. They have been the best team this 6 nations and have outplayed EVERY team they have come up against. Two unfortunate bounces of the ball have robbed them of the title. Ireland have been good but were ouplayed by England.

I'm sure the lads are kicking themselves as it is a missed chance, but we have learnt a lot of things about this group of players which will stand them in good stead for next year, which lets face it is a huge one for all the home nations as they will all get pretty much home support for the RWC.

I won't be too upset when Ireland lifts the 6 nation’s trophy on Saturday
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 12 Mar 2014, 12:44 pm

Will Ireland's confidence hold up in Paris, such a very, very, very long time since they won there. If it does I cannot see any other winner, even if France perform.

However if France get the luck they had against England at the start of the match, I can see Irish confidence waning. I am not sure they have the never say die attitude of England's kids and as both England and Scotland have found out, France play until the final whistle blows, you are never safe without a two score lead.
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England or Ireland - Who will win the six nations? Empty Re: England or Ireland - Who will win the six nations?

Post by Metal Tiger Wed 12 Mar 2014, 12:49 pm

As I'm sure many other posters have pointed out... History is not in Irelands favour playing away in France... it has to be the worst away record in the 6Ns against a particular country. Having said that France are such a shambless at the moment and Ireland playing consistantly well all season I just can't see past an Ireland win on this.

I would like France to do us a favour but I just don't think Ireland deserve to lose against them.

Guess we are just going to have to beat Italy by 70pts!  Shocked Shocked Shocked 
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