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England v Ireland; Six Nations Round 3

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England v Ireland; Six Nations Round 3 Empty England v Ireland; Six Nations Round 3

Post by LondonTiger Tue 23 Feb 2016, 11:12 am

England v Ireland; Six Nations Round 3 Englan10              England v Ireland; Six Nations Round 3 Irelan10

ENGLAND vs  IRELAND

Date: Saturday 27th February 2016
Venue: Twickenham
Kick Off: 16:50 (GMT)
Referee: Romain Poite (FFR)
Asst Refs: Nigel Owens (WRU), Alexandre Ruiz (FFR)
TMO: Shaun Veldsman (SARU)
TV Coverage: Live on ITV, RTE, FR2


Head to Head

Played - 119
Wins - 65/47
Draws - 7
Points - 1443/1037


Current Form

England:
W 40-9 v Italy
W 15-9 v Scotland
W 60-3 v Uruguay

Ireland:
L 9-10 v France
D 16-16 v wales
L 20-43 v Argentina


Recent Meetings

05/09/15 England 21 Ireland 13
01/03015 Ireland 19 England 9
22/02/14 England 13 Ireland 10
10/02/13 Ireland 6 England 12
17/03/12 England 30 Ireland 9



Teams

England
England v Ireland; Six Nations Round 3 Queenelizabethii

1 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 39 caps)
2 Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 68 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 58 caps)
4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 1 cap)
5 George Kruis (Saracens, 12 caps)
6 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 45 caps)
7 James Haskell (Wasps, 64 caps)
8 Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens, 23 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps)
10 George Ford (Bath Rugby, 19 caps)
11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 37 caps)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 17 caps)
15 Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 45 caps)
Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 5 caps)
17 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 30 caps)
18 Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
19 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 44 caps)
20 Jack Clifford (Harlequins, 2 caps)
21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 56 caps)
22 Elliot Daly (Wasps, uncapped)
23 Alex Goode (Saracens, 20 caps)


Ireland
England v Ireland; Six Nations Round 3 Michaeldhiggins

15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 68
14. Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster) 60
13. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht) 17
12. Stuart McCloskey (Ballynahinch/Ulster)*
11. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 47
10. Jonathan Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster) 58
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 44
1. Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 27
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) Captain 91
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 56
4. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster) 36
5. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 33
6. CJ Stander (Munster) 2
7. Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster)*
8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) Vice Captain 82

Replacements
16. Richard Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster) 14
17. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 56
18. Nathan White (Connacht) 10
19. Ultane Dillane (Corinthians/Connacht)*
20. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster) 7
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster) 68
22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster) 27
23. Simon Zebo (Cork Con/Munster) 22


Last edited by George Carlin on Thu 25 Feb 2016, 11:21 pm; edited 6 times in total (Reason for editing : Updated with teams)

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Post by Geordie Tue 23 Feb 2016, 11:18 am

This will be an interesting game.

Ireland played a masterly tactical game last year...and we just didn't have an answer to it.

I wonder what the gameplans will be this weekend.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Feb 2016, 11:21 am

Touch Wood but a fit Brown competing for the ball is a plus.

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Post by Geordie Tue 23 Feb 2016, 11:24 am

Are you expecting any changes to the starting lineup 7.5?

Im not.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Feb 2016, 11:27 am

Still undecided. I don't know how Jones will go. There's 2 temptations for me in the backrow. We looked slow so Clifford crosses my mind. Lineout looked shaky so itoje at 6 crosses my mind. I think I'd look to add one of them, probably Clifford and move Haskell to 6.

I do think Marler will start.

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Post by Pete330v2 Tue 23 Feb 2016, 12:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Touch Wood but a fit Brown competing for the ball is a plus.

Are you touching wood over Brown ???? Wink Wink

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Post by wrfc1980 Tue 23 Feb 2016, 12:53 pm

Not sure itoje will be picked at 6. Jones said that he thought Robhsaw had one of his best games for England for a long time and Haskel has been a bit of a brute winning his defensive collisions.

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Post by propdavid_london Tue 23 Feb 2016, 1:23 pm

Haskell doesnt tend to have back to back good games though!
In the 1st half against Italy (and Scotland) we were bossed at the breakdown. Haskell and Robshaw really need to up their performances as Ireland are very savvy there and perhaps one of the youngsters could come in and start just as 7.5 said - bit of a baptism of fire though.
Billy has gotten through a lot of work carrying so has a reduced presence at the breakdown.

Barring any injuries that we dont know about then I dont expect too many changes! Ford still looks lacking in confidence, but Jones was waxing lyrical about him post Italy! So I dont think there will be any changes there either.

Yarde is back with the squad - perhaps thats injury cover - or is it that the whole EPS is together this week?

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 23 Feb 2016, 1:24 pm

I think the entire EPS reported for duty Sunday night.

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Post by yappysnap Tue 23 Feb 2016, 1:27 pm

I think we'll see an unchanged side. I'd like to see the 6/2 split again in the bench but I'd have Daly in the number 23 shirt. His long range boot could win the game potentially.

Otherwise I'd start Marler, and have a Launchbury/Kruis combo at lock. Let's hope the pack have practiced their lineout drills.

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Post by propdavid_london Tue 23 Feb 2016, 1:29 pm

Yappy - if they practice their lineouts then the scrum will be naff! Cant have it all....

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Post by yappysnap Tue 23 Feb 2016, 1:30 pm

Any one else think Jones is making a mistake with Goode. Not only is he a poor bench option with his lack or versatility or impact, but Jones seems to admit this and only give him 10 mins at most. He's pretty much only there in case brown gets hurt.

The thing is if Brown was injured we have two other fullbacks on the field already! It's such a waste to have a guy on the bench that you obviously don't rate but feel compelled to pick.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 23 Feb 2016, 1:32 pm

yappysnap wrote:I think we'll see an unchanged side. I'd like to see the 6/2 split again in the bench but I'd have Daly in the number 23 shirt. His long range boot could win the game potentially.

Otherwise I'd start Marler, and have a Launchbury/Kruis combo at lock. Let's hope the pack have practiced their lineout drills.

I'd be happy with that. I suspect Marler will start also. Can't help but keep on saying that who starts isn't a question of who is best, its about maximising their impact. The one thing that I think EJ has definitely changed from the previous regime is the use of the bench and it being a team of 23 not 15.

And please please Daly instead of Goode. Everyone else on the bench can come on and cause havoc.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Feb 2016, 1:35 pm

Oh that's a point surely Launchbury comes into the team as well for Lawes. You sicko Pete!

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Post by Notch Tue 23 Feb 2016, 1:39 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:This will be an interesting game.

Ireland played a masterly tactical game last year...and we just didn't have an answer to it.

I wonder what the gameplans will be this weekend.

Same game plan for Ireland this year and England will still be able to build momentum through their pack. Tactics can make the difference in a 50/50 game and I expect Schmidt to find a way to make this close but it's just... we don't have the pack right now. England haven't taken one step back since last year and if anything are improving. Ireland are looking at a few seasons to rebuild.
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Post by propdavid_london Tue 23 Feb 2016, 1:42 pm

Yes, I forgot that Launchbury was out of Italy too! So, actually we may see one less youngster on the bench, if Lawes steps down to that spot.....Itoje or Clifford? As Itoje was the one that pretty much covered 2nd and back row then we may see him drop out over Clifford.

Agree Yappy on your 'Goode' sentiments - With Nowell and Watson (both experienced at 15) is there a need for a specialist 15 on the bench.
Also his supposed 10 cover isnt really necessary when picking both Ford and Farrell!

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Tue 23 Feb 2016, 2:34 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Yes, I forgot that Launchbury was out of Italy too!  So, actually we may see one less youngster on the bench, if Lawes steps down to that spot.....Itoje or Clifford?  As Itoje was the one that pretty much covered 2nd and back row then we may see him drop out over Clifford.  

Agree Yappy on your 'Goode' sentiments - With Nowell and Watson (both experienced at 15) is there a need for a specialist 15 on the bench.  
Also his supposed 10 cover isnt really necessary when picking both Ford and Farrell!

The specialist 15 is a moot point with Daly anyway as he's played fb for Wasps many times. What does the guy have to do to get picked?? He's massively improved his defence & compared to Goode has searing pace, a massive boot & great hands.

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Post by propdavid_london Tue 23 Feb 2016, 2:43 pm

I agree BigTrev - I don't know what the point of Goode being there is 'other than someone with previous international experience'.
He must be doing something in training to keep the coaches interested though.

I am not sure what more Daly can do though! Other than they are concerned that a pairing of Daly and Joseph would be too lightweight - or that they are both 13's and its hard to oust Joseph after a 3-try performance (even if 1 of them was a given).
Jones has said you have to be significantly better than the incumbent and if its a straight shootout between Joseph and Daly then its not so clear cut.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Tue 23 Feb 2016, 3:05 pm

propdavid_london wrote:I agree BigTrev - I don't know what the point of Goode being there is 'other than someone with previous international experience'.  
He must be doing something in training to keep the coaches interested though.  

I am not sure what more Daly can do though!  Other than they are concerned that a pairing of Daly and Joseph would be too lightweight - or that they are both 13's and its hard to oust Joseph after a 3-try performance (even if 1 of them was a given).  
Jones has said you have to be significantly better than the incumbent and if its a straight shootout between Joseph and Daly then its not so clear cut.  

Fair comment & I am not suggesting that Daly should be picked at 13 ahead of Joseph who has regained some form but if we are going for a 6:2 split with SH & fb/utility back (Goode) on the bench then let's use Daly.

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Post by Pete330v2 Tue 23 Feb 2016, 3:21 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh that's a point surely Launchbury comes into the team as well for Lawes. You sicko Pete!

Sorry, I am a big child.

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Post by Hoonercat Tue 23 Feb 2016, 3:52 pm

propdavid_london wrote:I agree BigTrev - I don't know what the point of Goode being there is 'other than someone with previous international experience'.  
He must be doing something in training to keep the coaches interested though.  

I am not sure what more Daly can do though!  Other than they are concerned that a pairing of Daly and Joseph would be too lightweight - or that they are both 13's and its hard to oust Joseph after a 3-try performance (even if 1 of them was a given).  
Jones has said you have to be significantly better than the incumbent and if its a straight shootout between Joseph and Daly then its not so clear cut.  

He scored 3 tries but I'm not convinced it was much of a performance, his credibility seems to have been restored despite being pretty woeful in the first half. Having said that I appear to be the only one thinking this way so maybe I'm being too harsh. Fingers crossed scoring those tries will up his confidence and see him play to his potential against Ireland.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 23 Feb 2016, 3:56 pm

Hoonercat wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:I agree BigTrev - I don't know what the point of Goode being there is 'other than someone with previous international experience'.  
He must be doing something in training to keep the coaches interested though.  

I am not sure what more Daly can do though!  Other than they are concerned that a pairing of Daly and Joseph would be too lightweight - or that they are both 13's and its hard to oust Joseph after a 3-try performance (even if 1 of them was a given).  
Jones has said you have to be significantly better than the incumbent and if its a straight shootout between Joseph and Daly then its not so clear cut.  

He scored 3 tries but I'm not convinced it was much of a performance, his credibility seems to have been restored despite being pretty woeful in the first half. Having said that I appear to be the only one thinking this way so maybe I'm being too harsh. Fingers crossed scoring those tries will up his confidence and see him play to his potential against Ireland.

I do think the tries were mostly a case of being at the right place at the right time, but they all count and we did need someone to be there to take the chances. I don't think he looks as brilliant as he was this time last year but there were some positive signs, just he wasn't getting much change at that point out of a tough Italian midfield

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 23 Feb 2016, 8:36 pm

OP updated with the England squad - which I am sure is being debated on the other thread.

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Post by Geordie Tue 23 Feb 2016, 8:48 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:I agree BigTrev - I don't know what the point of Goode being there is 'other than someone with previous international experience'.  
He must be doing something in training to keep the coaches interested though.  

I am not sure what more Daly can do though!  Other than they are concerned that a pairing of Daly and Joseph would be too lightweight - or that they are both 13's and its hard to oust Joseph after a 3-try performance (even if 1 of them was a given).  
Jones has said you have to be significantly better than the incumbent and if its a straight shootout between Joseph and Daly then its not so clear cut.  

Fair comment & I am not suggesting that Daly should be picked at 13 ahead of Joseph who has regained some form but if we are going for a 6:2 split with SH & fb/utility back (Goode) on the bench then let's use Daly.

Has Joseph lost form for England?

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Post by yappysnap Tue 23 Feb 2016, 8:59 pm

Good to see Eddie taking my advice and getting Daly in there, he'll go far at this rate...

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Post by Geordie Tue 23 Feb 2016, 9:12 pm

Ive just said on the other one though Yappy, theres not a lot of power in that group of backs...

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Post by yappysnap Tue 23 Feb 2016, 9:30 pm

Just realised Goode is still there Shocked Erm

So Goode 22 and Daly 23. Just what does Goode do in training to always make that bench spot but never get started.

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Post by yappysnap Tue 23 Feb 2016, 9:33 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ive just said on the other one though Yappy, theres not a lot of power in that group of backs...

Yea it's a little worrying. I guess the annoyance is that three potentially powerful players Burrell, Yarde and Roko were all either injured, off form or in misfiring teams when the EPS was picked. Meaning the only power player picked was Devoto who's never had enough club time to cement a place and obviously hasn't impressed enough in training.

Thankfully the Irish backs aren't particularly powerful, and if we can deal with the kicks there should be plenty of broken field.

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Post by BamBam Tue 23 Feb 2016, 10:11 pm

yappysnap wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Ive just said on the other one though Yappy, theres not a lot of power in that group of backs...

Yea it's a little worrying. I guess the annoyance is that three potentially powerful players Burrell, Yarde and Roko were all either injured, off form or in misfiring teams when the EPS was picked. Meaning the only power player picked was Devoto who's never had enough club time to cement a place and obviously hasn't impressed enough in training.

Thankfully the Irish backs aren't particularly powerful, and if we can deal with the kicks there should be plenty of broken field.

Unless they start McCloskey, guy's a beast!

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Post by Geordie Tue 23 Feb 2016, 10:57 pm

Maybe that's the route Jones is taking...horses for courses. They don't tend to have a Roberts style player...so Jones has selected more fleet footed players....and it will be different again for Wales.

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Post by DaveM Tue 23 Feb 2016, 11:04 pm

So we have two 13s, two 10s, and two 15s in the squad. I'm pleased Daly is being given a chance, but am not sure how the backline is going to be set up. I don't really like Burrell at 12, but it would make more sense to have him on the bench than Goode as Burrell and Daly (or Joseph) are potential game-changers, where-as (as I've said before) Goode is in the squad then I think Brown shouldn't be and that he should start the game.

I see Itoje is either a starting lock or covering lock.

I'm finding EJ quite hard to predict. I'd say he is probably moving in the right direction though, even if it is slightly more slowly than I'd like.

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Post by DaveM Tue 23 Feb 2016, 11:05 pm

Of course Devoto instead of Goode would have been even better, but obviously he isn't available.

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Post by yappysnap Wed 24 Feb 2016, 7:00 am

Devoto isn't available?

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Post by yappysnap Wed 24 Feb 2016, 7:01 am

Goode is my only issue with Eddie's teams so far. Hopefully he'll be phased out if Daly can impress against Ireland though.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Wed 24 Feb 2016, 7:26 am

Chuffed for Daly but thinking about it I can't see him coming on unless there is an injury or we are miles ahead with 5-10 to go.....or we need a 55m pen to win the game!

OD was just cover & didn't come on.

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 24 Feb 2016, 7:35 am

yappysnap wrote:Devoto isn't available?

Concussion

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Post by Alex_Germany Wed 24 Feb 2016, 7:41 am

yappysnap wrote:Just realised Goode is still there Shocked Erm

So Goode 22 and Daly 23. Just what does Goode do in training to always make that bench spot but never get started.

Generally I agree with the comments about Goode, but against Italy for once he looked very good when he came on. Maybe because after playing 60 minutes like a good International side, Italy played the last 20 minutes like a club side - where Goode excels.

He also offers a back up 10 option in case Ford and Farrell both get injured.

With 2 backs replacements, no way would I have him ahead of Daly. But with 3, he can have a place.

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Post by yappysnap Wed 24 Feb 2016, 8:10 am

He's about as good a fly half replacement as Devoto would be, as neither really ever play there.

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Post by yappysnap Wed 24 Feb 2016, 9:25 am

Haskell comments a bit on the new fitness regime...

“I did say this after, we did a lot of fitness work before the World Cup and were in incredible shape but the game never went to those depths so it wasn’t relevant.

"What we are trying to do now is build fitness that is relevant to the style we want to play and play at that intensity and dictate the play, that’s the difference.”

So perhaps a nod towards the realisation that being fit enough to run a marathon won't actually help in a game.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 24 Feb 2016, 9:51 am

Alex_Germany wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Just realised Goode is still there Shocked Erm

So Goode 22 and Daly 23. Just what does Goode do in training to always make that bench spot but never get started.

Generally I agree with the comments about Goode, but against Italy for once he looked very good when he came on. Maybe because after playing 60 minutes like a good International side, Italy played the last 20 minutes like a club side - where Goode excels.

He also offers a back up 10 option in case Ford and Farrell both get injured.

With 2 backs replacements, no way would I have him ahead of Daly. But with 3, he can have a place.

Goode had one nice run and a tidy session. What I'd argue (but obviously can't prove either way) is that, had, say, Daly come on instead he would have done at least as well. Like some of JJ's tries I think there was a lot of being in the right place at the right time rather than showing innate brilliance.

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Post by Geordie Wed 24 Feb 2016, 11:38 am

yappysnap wrote:Haskell comments a bit on the new fitness regime...

“I did say this after, we did a lot of fitness work before the World Cup and were in incredible shape but the game never went to those depths so it wasn’t relevant.

"What we are trying to do now is build fitness that is relevant to the style we want to play and play at that intensity and dictate the play, that’s the difference.”

So perhaps a nod towards the realisation that being fit enough to run a marathon won't actually help in a game.

Well that's a bonus.

Hopefully meaning they wont lose too much weight so they aren't effective in the physical collisions etc.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 24 Feb 2016, 6:32 pm

Launchbury out with a hamstring injury.

Lawes replaces him in the 23.

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 24 Feb 2016, 6:40 pm

king_carlos wrote:Launchbury out with a hamstring injury.

Lawes replaces him in the 23.

The interesting thing now is whether Jones moves Itoje to starting, or Lawes straight back into the starting XV.

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Post by BamBam Wed 24 Feb 2016, 7:28 pm

Ah bollix

So thats all 3 games without a fit and firing Launchbury!!

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Post by Geordie Wed 24 Feb 2016, 9:11 pm

Lawes will start, Itoje will come on from the bench.

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Post by profitius Wed 24 Feb 2016, 10:15 pm

Heres the Ireland team that multiple news sites are reporting.


15. Rob Kearney
14. Andrew Trimble
13. Robbie Henshaw
12. Stuart McCloskey
11. Keith Earls
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Conor Murray
1. Jack McGrath
2. Rory Best (captain)
3. Mike Ross
4. Donnacha Ryan
5. Devin Toner
6. CJ Stander
7. Josh van der Flier
8. Jamie Heaslip


VDF and McCloskey* to make their debut. Henshaw moves to 13 which he prefers. Earls and Ross back.

I'd prefer to see Kearney replaced but its a step in the right direction from Schmidt.


* There is mention of Payne being subject to a fitness test.
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Post by Notch Wed 24 Feb 2016, 10:46 pm

Looks good OK

Would think that there is no point in playing Payne is he is not training fully all week. I would quite like to see McCloskey, Payne and Henshaw at fullback at some point though.
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Post by Engine#4 Wed 24 Feb 2016, 11:58 pm

That looks awfully like Ireland's;

Strongest front row.
Strongest available second row.
Form 6&7, best 8.
Best Half backs.
Form 12.
Best wingers.


In addition to our strongest available second rows and a potentially very good 13.

I like it. Very Happy

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 25 Feb 2016, 1:00 am

As stated above, rumour mill has this Ireland team for Saturday's match against England.

Payne unlikely to recover which would allow Stu McCloskey to earn his first cap at inside centre and move Henshaw to his more natural position at outside.

McCarthy's loss through injury gives another possible new cap to Connacht's Ultan Dillane, most likely on the bench with Donncha Ryan starting alongside Toner.

Tommy O'Donnell, the Munster open-side could give way to a third newbie, Leinster's young Josh van der Flier.

Earls in for the injured D Kearney. Ross and Healy recovered from injury.

If this comes to pass, it would make for a refreshing change in the back line. And a bit more solidity up front in the scrum.


15 Rob Kearney (Leinster)
14 Andrew Trimble (Ulster)
13 Robbie Henshaw (Connacht)
12 Stuart McCloskey (Ulster)
11 Keith Earls (Munster)
10 Johnny Sexton (Leinster)
9 Conor Murray (Munster)
1 Jack McGrath (Leinster)
2 Rory Best (Ulster, capt)
3 Mike Ross (Leinster)
4 Donnacha Ryan (Munster)
5 Devin Toner (Leinster)
6 C J Stander (Munster)
7 Josh van der Flier (Leinster)
8 Jamie Heaslip (Leinster)

Replacements: R Strauss (Leinster), C Healy (Leinster), N White (Connacht), U Dillane (Connacht), R Ruddock (Leinster), E Reddan (Leinster), I Madigan (Leinster), S Zebo (Munster).

Looking forward to this one.

Could be a cracking match-up with hopefully a few tries from both sides.
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Post by robbo277 Thu 25 Feb 2016, 7:23 am

I would have considered starting Itoje at 6 with Haskell at 7 and Robshaw and Clifford both on a 5/3 bench (so Itoje both starting and covering lock).

With Launchbury out I'd simply shift Maro to 4, bring back Robshaw and keep Lawes on the bench.

If keep with Mako, I think his carrying in the first 50 takes some of the workload away from Billy, who needs to last the 80. Marler and Lawes can come off the bench together to increase the intensity in defence, while players like George, Hill and Clifford can be used to increase the carrying options.

In the backs, I'd go as is with Care, Goode and Daly on the bench. I'd want to see 30 minute runouts for Care and Daly though.

I think with Goode, maybe he's been retained to keep the balance of England go with Tuilagi and Joseph or similar in the centres, and Eddie wants a playmaker at 15. Thinking back to the first game, he could have brought on Devoto and Goode for Ford and Brown and kept two playmakers in the side, but things were going well and he didn't want to change. Against Italy he thought he would go 6/2, and decided to cover his playmakers over his strike runners.

So I wouldn't be surprised if against Wales we saw Manu and Goode start together with Ford and Brown on the bench.

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