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Ireland v England - Six Nations Round 4, 9 March 2024

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Post by Pot Hale Mon 04 Mar 2024, 4:13 pm

Ireland supremely confident of having any answers to questions that England will pose, according to Bernard Jackman.

Stephen Jones wants lots of bish and bosh and no training.  Stuart Barnes wants Ben Earl in midfield.  Dallaglio wants them to get in some players faces and annoy them a lot.

Farrell doesn't know yet if he'll have Ringrose and Keenan back to consider for squad selection and thus the make up of his bench for 6-2 or 5-3.

Borthwick has two players back for his half-back partnership and the opportunity to continue with Furbank at 15.

No real shots have been fired yet but it's only Monday.

Teams

England
Furbank, Feyi-Waboso, Slade, Lawrence, Freeman, Ford, Mitchell
Genge, George, Cole, Itoje, Martin, Chessum, Underhill, Earl
Dan, Marler, Stuart, Cunningham-South, Dombrandt, Care, Smith, Daly

Ireland
Keenan, Nash, Henshaw, Aki, Lowe, Crowley, Gibson-Park
Porter, Sheehan, Furlong, Beirne, McCarthy, O'Mahony, vd Flier, Doris
Kelleher, Healy, Bealham, Henderson, Conan, Baird, Murray, Frawley


Last edited by Pot Hale on Thu 07 Mar 2024, 3:02 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Mar 2024, 4:33 pm

I agree with Heaslip. We'll need Ireland down to 13!

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Post by mountain man Mon 04 Mar 2024, 4:38 pm

Barnes and Dallagio talking rubbish. No way Earl be in centres, more chance of Steward there but that's very unlikely. As for "getting in Irelands faces". Pointless. This isn't the 80s/90s where a bit of roughening up sometimes had an effect. Teams are way too savvy and officials/laws way too strict for any nonsense.
Either England are good enough to to beat them or they're not. Let's be honest, it's massively in favour of latter. Doesn't mean Ireland are definitley going to win as otherwise why bother but they are so much better in all aspects that an England win pretty unlikely.

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Post by Unclear Mon 04 Mar 2024, 7:15 pm

Gawd I love the way you English are at each others throats because your team, that got to RWC semi-finals and were within a couple of points of getting to the final, are playing poorly. I have read all the stuff about needing more time, that they has been plenty of time, that the player are good enough, that they're not good enough etc etc etc. Remember Andy Farrell's appointment (and Mike Catt's) got a lukewarm reception and he didn't have a brilliant start. But this is sport. There are no foregone conclusions. The margins between winning and losing are small. One clumsy tackle could end someone's game.

Ireland should have enough for a comfortable victory, but everyone said the same about SA in that semi-final. They scraped through and I think Ireland will do so as well. My highly selective memory says all teams have at least one good game in them in a 6 Nations , and I think this will be Englands. They are at home, with no expectations and everyone, even their own supporters, saying they are rubbish. They have a point to prove.

Lets just hope for a good game, 15 against 15.


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Post by carpet baboon Mon 04 Mar 2024, 9:27 pm

I'm sure the IRFU are fully paid up till 2026 and the refs association is just waiting for the paperwork on what England player we want red carded this game thumbsup

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Post by mountain man Tue 05 Mar 2024, 8:07 am

Unclear wrote:Gawd I love the way you English are at each others throats because your team, that got to RWC semi-finals and were within a couple of points of getting to the final, are playing poorly.  I have read all the stuff about needing more time, that they has been plenty of time, that the player are good enough, that they're not good enough etc etc etc.  Remember Andy Farrell's appointment (and Mike Catt's) got a lukewarm reception and he didn't have a brilliant start.  But this is sport.  There are no foregone conclusions.  The margins between winning and losing are small.  One clumsy tackle could end someone's game.

Ireland should have enough for a comfortable victory, but everyone said the same about SA in that semi-final.  They scraped through and I think Ireland will do so as well.  My highly selective memory says all teams have at least one good game in them in a 6 Nations , and I think this will be Englands.  They are at home, with no expectations and everyone, even their own supporters, saying they are rubbish.  They have a point to prove.

Lets just hope for a good game, 15 against 15.


All you said is correct pretty much but proof of puddings is in eating and all that and England first 3 matches been way below what most would hope or even expect to see. Still way too much uncertainty of selection and tactics.
As I said earlier, Ireland very strong favourites to win but that doesn't mean they definitely will. However what most England supporters want to see is a coherent game plan executed well. A win be a massive bonus but signs of progress are key. Passing and actually catching ball be a start.

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Post by Geordie Tue 05 Mar 2024, 8:27 am

England must cut out the stupid errors...and turnovers.

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Post by Geordie Tue 05 Mar 2024, 8:28 am

mountain man wrote:
Unclear wrote:Gawd I love the way you English are at each others throats because your team, that got to RWC semi-finals and were within a couple of points of getting to the final, are playing poorly.  I have read all the stuff about needing more time, that they has been plenty of time, that the player are good enough, that they're not good enough etc etc etc.  Remember Andy Farrell's appointment (and Mike Catt's) got a lukewarm reception and he didn't have a brilliant start.  But this is sport.  There are no foregone conclusions.  The margins between winning and losing are small.  One clumsy tackle could end someone's game.

Ireland should have enough for a comfortable victory, but everyone said the same about SA in that semi-final.  They scraped through and I think Ireland will do so as well.  My highly selective memory says all teams have at least one good game in them in a 6 Nations , and I think this will be Englands.  They are at home, with no expectations and everyone, even their own supporters, saying they are rubbish.  They have a point to prove.

Lets just hope for a good game, 15 against 15.


All you said is correct pretty much but proof of puddings is in eating and all that and England first 3 matches been way below what most would hope or even expect to see. Still way too much uncertainty of selection and tactics.
As I said earlier, Ireland very strong favourites to win but that doesn't mean they definitely will. However what most England supporters want to see is a coherent game plan executed well. A win be a massive bonus but signs of progress are key. Passing and actually catching ball be a start.

I dont believe there is.

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Post by Collapse2005 Tue 05 Mar 2024, 8:51 am

carpet baboon wrote:I'm sure the IRFU are fully paid up till 2026 and the refs association is just waiting for the paperwork on what England player we want red carded this game thumbsup

A red card in each of the last four Ireland v England games is a hell of a record.

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Post by carpet baboon Tue 05 Mar 2024, 8:58 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:I'm sure the IRFU are fully paid up till 2026 and the refs association is just waiting for the paperwork on what England player we want red carded this game thumbsup

A red card in each of the last four Ireland v England games is a hell of a record.

Bundi clearly made a mistake. The English are just reckless and can only use illegal tactics to try and stop us. It's a shame really they ruin the game for the rest of us. thumbsup

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Post by mountain man Tue 05 Mar 2024, 9:07 am

Geordie wrote:
mountain man wrote:
Unclear wrote:Gawd I love the way you English are at each others throats because your team, that got to RWC semi-finals and were within a couple of points of getting to the final, are playing poorly.  I have read all the stuff about needing more time, that they has been plenty of time, that the player are good enough, that they're not good enough etc etc etc.  Remember Andy Farrell's appointment (and Mike Catt's) got a lukewarm reception and he didn't have a brilliant start.  But this is sport.  There are no foregone conclusions.  The margins between winning and losing are small.  One clumsy tackle could end someone's game.

Ireland should have enough for a comfortable victory, but everyone said the same about SA in that semi-final.  They scraped through and I think Ireland will do so as well.  My highly selective memory says all teams have at least one good game in them in a 6 Nations , and I think this will be Englands.  They are at home, with no expectations and everyone, even their own supporters, saying they are rubbish.  They have a point to prove.

Lets just hope for a good game, 15 against 15.


All you said is correct pretty much but proof of puddings is in eating and all that and England first 3 matches been way below what most would hope or even expect to see. Still way too much uncertainty of selection and tactics.
As I said earlier, Ireland very strong favourites to win but that doesn't mean they definitely will. However what most England supporters want to see is a coherent game plan executed well. A win be a massive bonus but signs of progress are key. Passing and actually catching ball be a start.

I dont believe there is.

We still don't know who are Englands best centres or who Borthwick thinks are. Likewise wings and FB. If all fit, who will he pick at 10? So I think still big uncertainty in backline which then translates to style of play.

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Post by Geordie Tue 05 Mar 2024, 10:53 am

mountain man wrote:
Geordie wrote:
mountain man wrote:
Unclear wrote:Gawd I love the way you English are at each others throats because your team, that got to RWC semi-finals and were within a couple of points of getting to the final, are playing poorly.  I have read all the stuff about needing more time, that they has been plenty of time, that the player are good enough, that they're not good enough etc etc etc.  Remember Andy Farrell's appointment (and Mike Catt's) got a lukewarm reception and he didn't have a brilliant start.  But this is sport.  There are no foregone conclusions.  The margins between winning and losing are small.  One clumsy tackle could end someone's game.

Ireland should have enough for a comfortable victory, but everyone said the same about SA in that semi-final.  They scraped through and I think Ireland will do so as well.  My highly selective memory says all teams have at least one good game in them in a 6 Nations , and I think this will be Englands.  They are at home, with no expectations and everyone, even their own supporters, saying they are rubbish.  They have a point to prove.

Lets just hope for a good game, 15 against 15.


All you said is correct pretty much but proof of puddings is in eating and all that and England first 3 matches been way below what most would hope or even expect to see. Still way too much uncertainty of selection and tactics.
As I said earlier, Ireland very strong favourites to win but that doesn't mean they definitely will. However what most England supporters want to see is a coherent game plan executed well. A win be a massive bonus but signs of progress are key. Passing and actually catching ball be a start.

I dont believe there is.

We still don't know who are Englands best centres or who Borthwick thinks are. Likewise wings and FB.  If all fit, who will he pick at 10? So I think still big uncertainty in backline which then translates to style of play.

10 would have been Marcus Smith...

Centres are probably an issue i agree. But the lack of a stand out 12 has been the issue for an eternity.

13 is between Slade and Lawrence for the moment but i suspect Slade actually is in pole position due to his better playmaking and game management skills over Lawrence, but when is Marchant back...before the NZ or after. Because he may well trump both. And Will Joseph a similar style to Marchant.

The wings are Daly and Freeman not going to change in the short term though I expect Waboso to come in over the summer and AI games though as im starting to think his game will suit the style and tactics better but hes still young so will be brough in gradually.

Full back, is Steward all day long, but nice to have Furbank as back up for a more creative Full back when required.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 05 Mar 2024, 11:38 am

Slade has never shown himself to be a playmaker.

Think Borthwick in his tenure has picked the same side in back to back games once and that was Italy Scotland this year. Doesn't mean he doesn't know his best team just means he prioritises setting up specific sides for specific games. With all the talk of lack of prep times after changing his approach to defence that may seem moronic but.....actually yeah just seems stupid. Expect 3 to 4 changes again.

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Post by carpet baboon Tue 05 Mar 2024, 12:15 pm

Finn smith out injured apparently.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 05 Mar 2024, 12:38 pm

Probably quite fortuitous as he may have been about to be axed anyway. Takes any questions away from the coaches.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 05 Mar 2024, 2:44 pm

Media reporting that the full Irish squad trained this morning including Keenan, Ringrose, Henderson and Jager.   A more intense training session will be held tomorrow after which Farrell will make his squad selection and inform players.   Leaks on Wednesday to The Irish Times' Gerry Thornley in time-honoured fashion and then formal announcement on Thursday as per.
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Post by Poorfour Tue 05 Mar 2024, 3:16 pm

Geordie wrote:
13 is between Slade and Lawrence for the moment but i suspect Slade actually is in pole position due to his better playmaking and game management skills over Lawrence, but when is Marchant back...before the NZ or after. Because he may well trump both. And Will Joseph a similar style to Marchant.

Also worth keeping an eye on Oscar Beard, who seems to have overtaken Joseph at Quins and played in the A game - no standout moments but did a lot right with few mistakes. He was guilty of trying to do too much in his earlier seasons but is making far better decisions this year.
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Post by Geordie Tue 05 Mar 2024, 3:40 pm

Poorfour wrote:
Geordie wrote:
13 is between Slade and Lawrence for the moment but i suspect Slade actually is in pole position due to his better playmaking and game management skills over Lawrence, but when is Marchant back...before the NZ or after. Because he may well trump both. And Will Joseph a similar style to Marchant.

Also worth keeping an eye on Oscar Beard, who seems to have overtaken Joseph at Quins and played in the A game - no standout moments but did a lot right with few mistakes. He was guilty of trying to do too much in his earlier seasons but is making far better decisions this year.

Not always about highlight reels PF...its about doing the right job the best, and efficiently.

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Post by mountain man Tue 05 Mar 2024, 5:18 pm

Geordie wrote:
mountain man wrote:
Geordie wrote:
mountain man wrote:
Unclear wrote:Gawd I love the way you English are at each others throats because your team, that got to RWC semi-finals and were within a couple of points of getting to the final, are playing poorly.  I have read all the stuff about needing more time, that they has been plenty of time, that the player are good enough, that they're not good enough etc etc etc.  Remember Andy Farrell's appointment (and Mike Catt's) got a lukewarm reception and he didn't have a brilliant start.  But this is sport.  There are no foregone conclusions.  The margins between winning and losing are small.  One clumsy tackle could end someone's game.

Ireland should have enough for a comfortable victory, but everyone said the same about SA in that semi-final.  They scraped through and I think Ireland will do so as well.  My highly selective memory says all teams have at least one good game in them in a 6 Nations , and I think this will be Englands.  They are at home, with no expectations and everyone, even their own supporters, saying they are rubbish.  They have a point to prove.

Lets just hope for a good game, 15 against 15.


All you said is correct pretty much but proof of puddings is in eating and all that and England first 3 matches been way below what most would hope or even expect to see. Still way too much uncertainty of selection and tactics.
As I said earlier, Ireland very strong favourites to win but that doesn't mean they definitely will. However what most England supporters want to see is a coherent game plan executed well. A win be a massive bonus but signs of progress are key. Passing and actually catching ball be a start.

I dont believe there is.

We still don't know who are Englands best centres or who Borthwick thinks are. Likewise wings and FB.  If all fit, who will he pick at 10? So I think still big uncertainty in backline which then translates to style of play.

10 would have been Marcus Smith...

Centres are probably an issue i agree. But the lack of a stand out 12 has been the issue for an eternity.

13 is between Slade and Lawrence for the moment but i suspect Slade actually is in pole position due to his better playmaking and game management skills over Lawrence, but when is Marchant back...before the NZ or after. Because he may well trump both. And Will Joseph a similar style to Marchant.

The wings are Daly and Freeman not going to change in the short term though I expect Waboso to come in over the summer and AI games though as im starting to think his game will suit the style and tactics better but hes still young so will be brough in gradually.

Full back, is Steward all day long, but nice to have Furbank as back up for a more creative Full back when required.

So are those players you would pick or the ones you think SB will?
Personally I would start Feyi-Waboso over Daly, I honestly think England need to start making some bolder moves in selection. I've never been convinced Slade is an Int player, sorry but just don't think he rarely if ever justifies his selection. Always seems like style over substance to me.
So whether that means Lawrence at 13 (despite his terrible showing last match he is in team for me) and then it's roll dice on Manu or Dingwall back in at 12. Steward FB. If Marcus in 23 then maybe he's on bench to cover 10/15 that's if he doesn't start.

Anyway, my overiding feeling is Borthwick still doesn't know his best 15.

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Post by bsando Tue 05 Mar 2024, 6:32 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68468207

Shots fired from Heaslip

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 05 Mar 2024, 7:01 pm

bsando wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68468207

Shots fired from Heaslip

Not really, pretty accurate to be fair.

Having said that England kept it pretty close last year until the awful red card call for Steward. Kept it pretty close in 2022 up to the last 10 mins despite Ewels being sent off inside the first couple of minutes. With any luck we'll have a bit of a contest to watch after all.

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Post by bsando Tue 05 Mar 2024, 7:10 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
bsando wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68468207

Shots fired from Heaslip

Not really, pretty accurate to be fair.

Having said that England kept it pretty close last year until the awful red card call for Steward. Kept it pretty close in 2022 up to the last 10 mins despite Ewels being sent off inside the first couple of minutes. With any luck we'll have a bit of a contest to watch after all.
England can beat anyone. Yes they’re malfunctioning at the moment but they’re still a strong group. Yet to see the best from their back row all on the same day but I think they’ll finally show up for Ireland.

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Post by Geordie Tue 05 Mar 2024, 7:18 pm

So are those players you would pick or the ones you think SB will?
Personally I would start Feyi-Waboso over Daly, I honestly think England need to start making some bolder moves in selection. I've never been convinced Slade is an Int player, sorry but just don't think he rarely if ever justifies his selection. Always seems like style over substance to me.
So whether that means Lawrence at 13 (despite his terrible showing last match he is in team for me) and then it's roll dice on Manu or Dingwall back in at 12. Steward FB. If Marcus in 23 then maybe he's on bench to cover 10/15 that's if he doesn't start.

Anyway, my overiding feeling is Borthwick still doesn't know his best 15.
mountain man

Actually I'm not a fan of Slade at this level either...but I just think his "game" is what they want at 13 more than say Lawrence. Would Slade be there if Marchant hadn't gone...I'm not sure.
Purely my thinking...they want prefer the carrier at 12 and playmaker or runner at 13. But without all the main choices have looked at other options.
If they have picked the style and tactics they are running to develop over the next few years...(which I think they have) then it's more about identifying WHO can play those styles better than simply picking the best performing players in the league.

Waboso will take one of those wing spots soon...bit he's young and inexperienced coming in to a new defence and attack...so I think THAT'S why they going for Dalys experience for the moment...even of he's not smashing it out rhe park.
I may be a million miles away from reality of course.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 05 Mar 2024, 7:24 pm

Geordie wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
Geordie wrote:
13 is between Slade and Lawrence for the moment but i suspect Slade actually is in pole position due to his better playmaking and game management skills over Lawrence, but when is Marchant back...before the NZ or after. Because he may well trump both. And Will Joseph a similar style to Marchant.

Also worth keeping an eye on Oscar Beard, who seems to have overtaken Joseph at Quins and played in the A game - no standout moments but did a lot right with few mistakes. He was guilty of trying to do too much in his earlier seasons but is making far better decisions this year.

Not always about highlight reels PF...its about doing the right job the best, and efficiently.

Oh, I agree. Richard Hill's highlight reel is almost non-existent...
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Post by doctor_grey Wed 06 Mar 2024, 12:54 am

bsando wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
bsando wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68468207

Shots fired from Heaslip

Not really, pretty accurate to be fair.

Having said that England kept it pretty close last year until the awful red card call for Steward. Kept it pretty close in 2022 up to the last 10 mins despite Ewels being sent off inside the first couple of minutes. With any luck we'll have a bit of a contest to watch after all.
England can beat anyone. Yes they’re malfunctioning at the moment but they’re still a strong group. Yet to see the best from their back row all on the same day but I think they’ll finally show up for Ireland.
I think England have been misfiring for the most part of the last 5 years, 2020-2022 under Eddie Jones and the last two years under Borthwick.

The Telegraph, 2 March, 2024 wrote:Youngs, who also played under Borthwick at Leicester, added that attack is not “high on his [Borthwick’s] agenda” and that the performance against Scotland was “not an isolated incident”. Indeed, statistics from Opta show that England have averaged fewer than 25 points and 2.5 tries per game against ‘Tier One’ opposition in every year since 2019. While there have been some improvements this year, in terms of defenders beaten and spreading play past first and second receiver, England’s return of 1.8 points per entry into the 22 is the worst in the championship.
My point is whilst there may be isolated reasons for specific loses and isolated glimpses of what could be, the results say England have not moved the needle in a meaningful way in half a decade.

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Post by carpet baboon Wed 06 Mar 2024, 9:45 am

A rumour (not one I hold much stock in mind) has the England back line as
Mitchell
Smith
IFW
Manu
Slade
Daly
Furbank

Personally I think that's wrong, but we all love a bit of rumour

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Post by mountain man Wed 06 Mar 2024, 9:49 am

So Freeman dropped? Unless injured that is highly unlikely. I also think Steward be 15.
The rest feasible.

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Post by Mr Bounce Wed 06 Mar 2024, 9:55 am

mountain man wrote:So Freeman dropped? Unless injured that is highly unlikely. I also think Steward be 15.
The rest feasible.

Who knows with Borthwick? Nobody expected Furbank 2 weeks ago!

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Post by carpet baboon Wed 06 Mar 2024, 9:56 am

As I said i doubt it's correct.
But have been also been told a certain tall player who's very good in the air has been seen training at 12 this week.
Maybe Borthwick has seen the light

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Post by mountain man Wed 06 Mar 2024, 10:01 am

Mr Bounce wrote:
mountain man wrote:So Freeman dropped? Unless injured that is highly unlikely. I also think Steward be 15.
The rest feasible.

Who knows with Borthwick? Nobody expected Furbank 2 weeks ago!

True!

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Post by Geordie Wed 06 Mar 2024, 10:04 am

carpet baboon wrote:As I said i doubt it's correct.
But have been also been told a certain tall player who's very good in the air has been seen training at 12 this week.
Maybe Borthwick has seen the light

Im sure Leicester will be happy Englands changing his position.

But i cant see that, in his last game his carrying in to traffic etc was very noticeable and are they not simply trying to blend the attack now, utilizing the big lads carrying in other areas where it will be destructive. And also cover for potential injuries

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Post by Geordie Wed 06 Mar 2024, 10:07 am

carpet baboon wrote:A rumour (not one I hold much stock in mind) has the England back line as
Mitchell
Smith
IFW Daly - IFW off the bench
Manu
Slade
Daly Freeman
Furbank  Steward

Personally I think that's wrong, but we all love a bit of rumour

I can see this running out.


Last edited by Geordie on Wed 06 Mar 2024, 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 06 Mar 2024, 10:08 am

carpet baboon wrote:As I said i doubt it's correct.
But have been also been told a certain tall player who's very good in the air has been seen training at 12 this week.
Maybe Borthwick has seen the light

I never knew Devin Toner had English roots! I'm excited now!

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Post by carpet baboon Wed 06 Mar 2024, 10:08 am

Geordie wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:As I said i doubt it's correct.
But have been also been told a certain tall player who's very good in the air has been seen training at 12 this week.
Maybe Borthwick has seen the light

Im sure Leicester will be happy Englands changing his position.

But i cant see that, in his last game his carrying in to traffic etc was very noticeable and are they not simply trying to blend the attack now, utilizing the big lads carrying in other areas where it will be destructive. And also cover for potential injuries

Same as big Stu McCloskey training on the wing the other week. You need to be versatile

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 06 Mar 2024, 10:09 am

carpet baboon wrote:A rumour (not one I hold much stock in mind) has the England back line as
Mitchell
Smith
IFW
Manu
Slade
Daly
Furbank

Personally I think that's wrong, but we all love a bit of rumour

4 changes to a backline that some say just need time together. Checks out.

Is it the Telegraph that now seems to nail all the changes these days?

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Post by mountain man Wed 06 Mar 2024, 10:17 am

I'd happily see IFW start but for Daly not Freeman.

Personally I'd go

Mitchell
Smith
IFW
Manu
Lawrence
Freeman
Steward

Pace, power, experience and youth. It'll never work.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 06 Mar 2024, 10:51 am

Wingers can go through games where they don't see the ball, especially playing for England. Freeman has been solid to very good this 6N with what has come his way.

Daly might be better at 13 thinking about the good things he's done.

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Post by mountain man Wed 06 Mar 2024, 10:56 am

That's why Freeman and IFW been a breath of fresh air. Both go looking for work and get involved, not hanging around on wing waiting for a pass that may never come.
And with England, that's often the case.

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Post by nlpnlp Wed 06 Mar 2024, 12:19 pm

Will Greenwood says international sides need 3 backs capable of kicking effectively, hence Slade and Daly starting in all 3 matches so far.  For all Steward's strength catching a high ball his kicking from hand is poor, it is either a lump to touch or an 'up and under'.  Neither Freeman or IFW are noted for their tactical kicking.  So I expect to see at least 2 from Slade, Daly and Furbank to start and it would be pretty harsh on Furbank to drop him after 1 game.

I saw a quote from 2011 regarding Martin Johnson's reign as England coach which seems very reminiscent of where we are now: "Johnson and his coaches were demanding England stick to a pre-prescribed game-plan. They did not trust the players and so were unwilling to allow them any kind of decision-making control.  This not only eroded confidence, particularly with results going against them, but it also created an environment where the players lived in fear of being dropped."

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Post by Geordie Wed 06 Mar 2024, 1:04 pm

nlpnlp wrote:Will Greenwood says international sides need 3 backs capable of kicking effectively, hence Slade and Daly starting in all 3 matches so far.  For all Steward's strength catching a high ball his kicking from hand is poor, it is either a lump to touch or an 'up and under'.  Neither Freeman or IFW are noted for their tactical kicking.  So I expect to see at least 2 from Slade, Daly and Furbank to start and it would be pretty harsh on Furbank to drop him after 1 game.

I saw a quote from 2011 regarding Martin Johnson's reign as England coach which seems very reminiscent of where we are now: "Johnson and his coaches were demanding England stick to a pre-prescribed game-plan. They did not trust the players and so were unwilling to allow them any kind of decision-making control.  This not only eroded confidence, particularly with results going against them, but it also created an environment where the players lived in fear of being dropped."

Im not sure we are in that area...is it strict yes, but are they looking to attack yes...though i accept its no 7s rugby. You cant blame SB for 21 handling errors / turnovers. Thats basic poor skills by the players. Without those England may well have beaten Scotland and everyone's talking differently.

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Post by carpet baboon Wed 06 Mar 2024, 1:20 pm

But the question is WHY are they making basic handling errors? Fear of being dropped? Fear of a Bollocking? Desperate to perform so over anxious? Just can't cope with pace of international rugby ?

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Post by mountain man Wed 06 Mar 2024, 1:35 pm

Will Greenwood says international sides need 3 backs capable of kicking effectively, hence Slade and Daly starting in all 3 matches so far.

But surely there comes a time and I think we've reached it when England need to pick players who can actually create something and score.
Picking players because they can kick is what England have done for years now and I don't think it's worked. Well it hasn't.

Time to pick players for what they can do rather than not picking them because of what they cannot.

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Post by Geordie Wed 06 Mar 2024, 1:37 pm

carpet baboon wrote:But the question is WHY are they making basic handling errors? Fear of being dropped? Fear of a Bollocking? Desperate to perform so over anxious? Just can't cope with pace of international rugby ?

Well i think thats what we will find out...im not in camp so dont know the answer. Its certainly one of the above...

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Post by carpet baboon Wed 06 Mar 2024, 1:39 pm

Andy Farrell makes a big think about not letting the fear of failure stop you.
Yes Ireland have a game plan, and the players play to that, but if they see something is on they are encouraged to trust themselves and the rest of the team.
Equally if it goes wrong he puts a big emphasis on getting on with it, not dwelling on the failure but looking for the next involvement to be a success.
One of the first things he did when he took over was sit the team down and ask them where they can improve individually and as a team, encouraged them to be honest with themselves and each other, no saying what you think the coaches want to hear, but what you honestly feel.
And I think you can see it in how they play, if you see one of them make a mistake there is no punching the ground or screaming, it's an acknowledgement it happened and you can guarantee that their next involvement will be a positive one.

Anyway. I still think this is going to be a tight game, England are due a performance, but saying that Ireland haven't put together a full 80min game yet either. Whoever wins it will only be by 4-6 points

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 06 Mar 2024, 1:54 pm

Fundamentally, this is one of the challenges right now. For a long time, players – and I felt this as a player, I felt it as squads I was a part of with England for a long time – is the possibility of making a mistake and the ramifications of it,” he told reporters.

“I have seen this with players I played with and teams I was part of, not bringing all their strengths onto the pitch for fear of a mistake.

“What I see in this group of players now is a group of players that is just determined to do well, has incredible skill level, but we are going to make mistakes.

“It’s a new team, and it’s ensuring the players understand we are going to learn from them, and we are going to keep getting better, and I keep wanting you to want more.

“I want you to have a go, I want you to bring your strengths, whatever it is, bring your strengths onto the pitch and we are going to try and decrease that concern, that worry that has been in teams previously.

“That’s my personal experience of seeing players playing with England. I want them to come and put a white shirt on and grow to be even better. I want a white shirt to help them be even better, even stronger than they have been before.”

Comments from Borthwick in February.

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Post by mountain man Wed 06 Mar 2024, 2:06 pm

That's good from Borthwick if it's carried out. Players need to know if they try something but it doesn't come off they won't be castigated because of it.
Playing in fear of losing shirt if a mistake is made is hardly condusive to a team playing well and winning.

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Post by dummy_half Wed 06 Mar 2024, 2:20 pm

carpet baboon wrote:But the question is WHY are they making basic handling errors? Fear of being dropped? Fear of a Bollocking? Desperate to perform so over anxious? Just can't cope with pace of international rugby ?

Woodward may have been a bit of a fruitloop, but he was right about TCUP - thinking clearly under pressure. Against Scotland, quite a few England players didn't manage that, and it all got panicky and very scruffy. Of course these guys have better hands than any of us (and I had pretty good hands when I played, just lacked pace, size and other skills...), so it's time for them to prove it was a one-off (or if not, for the coaches to accept that they don't have 'it')

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Post by Rugby Fan Thu 07 Mar 2024, 5:58 am

We'll know soon anyway but the Telegraph is flagging these selections:

Immanuel Feyi-Waboso, the explosive Exeter Chiefs winger, is in line to make his first England start against Ireland on Saturday, less than a year after turning out for Taunton Titans in National League 1.

Telegraph Sport understands that Feyi-Waboso is poised to replace Elliot Daly in the back three while fit-again scrum-half Alex Mitchell is set to partner George Ford in the half-backs. Head coach Steve Borthwick will confirm his team on Thursday lunchtime as England desperately seek to avoid a fourth consecutive two-win Six Nations campaign...Hard hitting forward George Martin is also expected to be called up and will start in the second row.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/03/06/immanuel-feyi-waboso-england-start-ireland-six-nations/

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Post by mountain man Thu 07 Mar 2024, 7:45 am

So I posted this yesterday and someone disagreed with it which is fine but it would be nice to know why.


"Time to pick players for what they can do rather than not picking them because of what they cannot."

Seems some must therefore prefer a middling all rounder rather than a specialist. Again, all opinions valid but I'd rather a reply to see point of view.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 07 Mar 2024, 8:02 am

Rugby Fan wrote:We'll know soon anyway but the Telegraph is flagging these selections:

Immanuel Feyi-Waboso, the explosive Exeter Chiefs winger, is in line to make his first England start against Ireland on Saturday, less than a year after turning out for Taunton Titans in National League 1.

Telegraph Sport understands that Feyi-Waboso is poised to replace Elliot Daly in the back three while fit-again scrum-half Alex Mitchell is set to partner George Ford in the half-backs. Head coach Steve Borthwick will confirm his team on Thursday lunchtime as England desperately seek to avoid a fourth consecutive two-win Six Nations campaign...Hard hitting forward George Martin is also expected to be called up and will start in the second row.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/03/06/immanuel-feyi-waboso-england-start-ireland-six-nations/

Feyi-Waboso has looked a bright spark so far. Baptism of fire in a way vs Ireland but the way Daly has been hung out to dry in defence this tournament (not necessarily by his ow making) may as well throw someone new to the wolves!

If Danny Care gets on it's for his 100th cap too.

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