Ireland v England - Six Nations Round 4, 9 March 2024

First topic message reminder :

Ireland supremely confident of having any answers to questions that England will pose, according to Bernard Jackman.

Stephen Jones wants lots of bish and bosh and no training.  Stuart Barnes wants Ben Earl in midfield.  Dallaglio wants them to get in some players faces and annoy them a lot.

Farrell doesn't know yet if he'll have Ringrose and Keenan back to consider for squad selection and thus the make up of his bench for 6-2 or 5-3.

Borthwick has two players back for his half-back partnership and the opportunity to continue with Furbank at 15.

No real shots have been fired yet but it's only Monday.

Teams

England
Furbank, Feyi-Waboso, Slade, Lawrence, Freeman, Ford, Mitchell
Genge, George, Cole, Itoje, Martin, Chessum, Underhill, Earl
Dan, Marler, Stuart, Cunningham-South, Dombrandt, Care, Smith, Daly

Ireland
Keenan, Nash, Henshaw, Aki, Lowe, Crowley, Gibson-Park
Porter, Sheehan, Furlong, Beirne, McCarthy, O'Mahony, vd Flier, Doris
Kelleher, Healy, Bealham, Henderson, Conan, Baird, Murray, Frawley

No 7&1/2 wrote:Tears of joy knowing they were shot of him?

Having just beaten Clermont in Europe on the back of winning the Prem after years of misery. Not likely.

Borthwick was hugely popular with players and fans at Tigers. A number of the England guys had good report with him as well, I remember Marler saying he messaged him before the Quins Vs Tigers game with some banter.

Only things Tigers fans wanted Borthwick to change was to bring in a more experienced attack coach to help us be more clinical. Sounds familiar somehow...

mountain man wrote:Borthwick in press interviews etc totally uninspiring and it's unfortunate but his accent and tone is pretty dull.
However, all that irrelevant if and it's a big if the coaching and way he conveys message to players is good.

Eddie Jones was always a gift to media with how he spoke etc but it was usually to detriment of team!

I don't care about all that, it's all down to how team plays and results. Obviously so far they've matched media appearances but I'm not convinced there is a connection.

Always thought the same when he was England captain - a master as sticking to the script and not actually saying much of interest.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Tears of joy knowing they were shot of him?

Having just beaten Clermont in Europe on the back of winning the Prem after years of misery. Not likely.

Borthwick was hugely popular with players and fans at Tigers. A number of the England guys had good report with him as well, I remember Marler saying he messaged him before the Quins Vs Tigers game with some banter.

Only things Tigers fans wanted Borthwick to change was to bring in a more experienced attack coach to help us be more clinical. Sounds familiar somehow...

Comforting to know he'll have somewhere to go back to then.

It's great to win the battle of the coach's media personality, but no substitute for actually winning the game

Woop woop 0 from 2.

dummy_half wrote:

mountain man wrote:Borthwick in press interviews etc totally uninspiring and it's unfortunate but his accent and tone is pretty dull.
However, all that irrelevant if and it's a big if the coaching and way he conveys message to players is good.

Eddie Jones was always a gift to media with how he spoke etc but it was usually to detriment of team!

I don't care about all that, it's all down to how team plays and results. Obviously so far they've matched media appearances but I'm not convinced there is a connection.

Always thought the same when he was England captain - a master as sticking to the script and not actually saying much of interest.

To be fair, that's most coaches and captains these days giving nothing more than bland platitudes. The media need to take a look in the mirror if they don't like it though, why would anyone give them any interesting quotes if there's a fair to middling chance they'll then just complain about what's being said and/or take it out of context to generate some 'shock' headlines.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Tears of joy knowing they were shot of him?

Having just beaten Clermont in Europe on the back of winning the Prem after years of misery. Not likely.

Borthwick was hugely popular with players and fans at Tigers. A number of the England guys had good report with him as well, I remember Marler saying he messaged him before the Quins Vs Tigers game with some banter.

Only things Tigers fans wanted Borthwick to change was to bring in a more experienced attack coach to help us be more clinical. Sounds familiar somehow...

Comforting to know he'll have somewhere to go back to then.

After his 9 years with England and his time with the Lions, yeah probably.

Well I did also write this but seems to been missed :

I can only go on what I see and hear. His accent and tone is dull and monotone and he gives bland answers. Quite possibly on purpose but there it is.

It's repetition on excuses as well. A band pr approach is fine for a lot of the time. It winds more people up to hear well we're doing gonna learn from this etc etc when things aren't great. It's the straw that breaks the camels back. Sometimes you want to see a emotional reaction.

Talk is cheap, anyone with good PR can bluff it. Ultimately it's results that matter.
If a team is playing well and winning what coach says irrelevant. Likewise if losing.

The soundbites of "we're taking positives from this loss etc etc" everyone knows it's just waffle.

But when you're losing you need people to buy into your vision. I think we're probably getting a hiding tomorrow. People will be pretty annoyed and if he comes out with the normal patter there will be a few column inches about needing a performance in France. When we lose and finish the lowest we have ever done in the 6 nations that's when you have bought yourself a little more time. A few backers of him are saying he needs time...but he needs to buy that himself.

But he won't buy anything by talking, it all needs to be done on pitch by team. Saying talking a good game will excuse more losses/duff performances insults peoples intelligence and I'm sure he's smart enough not to do that.

Anyway, let's see what happens. Perhaps we'll all be pleasantly surprised.

mountain man wrote:But he won't buy anything by talking, it all needs to be done on pitch by team. Saying talking a good game will excuse more losses/duff performances insults peoples intelligence and I'm sure he's smart enough not to do that.

Anyway, let's see what happens. Perhaps we'll all be pleasantly surprised.

Exactly this, we can all see what is happening. The Borthwick game plan seems to be geared around trying to force opposition errors. In the world cup it was lots of up-and-unders chased well to force knock-ons, turnovers, etc. Now we've got Felix Jones in working on the blitz defence to try and force more errors when the opposition have the ball. Being blunt it's not the most inspiring plan, but it can work very effectively. As it stands, England need to execute the blitz better, and whether opposition errors are from that or a well-chased up and under - they need to get dramatically better at exploiting and scoring from those errors when the opposition defence isn't well set. As they have more time together as a team working on that game plan - either we will see the improvements or we won't, no amount of interview fluff is going to change that.

But after the defeats upcoming if his vision and ambition,reasons and how he intends to put it right ring true to enough people he'll be allowed a little more time. Offer up the usual and it'll be the end.

Communication matters.

Borthwick was a deeply uninspiring England captain who was not missed at all when he dropped out through injury. He does however have the right pedigree to be a successful coach, being a player who relied on his brain rather than braun.

Maybe you're correct phantom disliker. Nothing can save Borthwick after the France game.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Maybe you're correct phantom disliker.

Don't take it too hard, I've got one of those as well.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Maybe you're correct phantom disliker. Kothing can save Borthwick after the France game.

The RFU aren't going to remove Borthwick they've just spent funds on him and his coaching team. Two wins and a game where players failing to execute cost us the game and the tactics saw us dominate aren't going to see them pull the trigger. The ex pros in the media will whine and moan ad nausea irrespective of what Borthwick says or does because it creates more clickable articles for their media outlets.

Borthwick is unlikely to face any real pressure until after the AIs when he's likely to have his new attack coach in place and the defence should be functioning.

5th place in the 6 nations is pretty bad. Hope that Italy don't spring a surprise this weekend...it may be last! Think the RFU turned a profit after getting rid of Jones so that's something.

But come now Sam Scotland controlled the game we in no way dominated. Just can't see how he turns the despondency that will come from this run of games around. I've been pretty spot on in calling his run so far,tbh I thought he'd win more at the start of his tenure but it wasn't to be. There'll be some nervous people at the rfu granted at messing this up but they should be tapping up some new options too by now.

Thanks phantom. Your secret dislike just makes it more true. My commiserations when you have to confront it for real in the coming weeks.

No 7&1/2 wrote:But after the defeats upcoming if his vision and ambition,reasons and how he intends to put it right ring true to enough people he'll be allowed a little more time. Offer up the usual and it'll be the end.

Communication matters.

Communication matters to the right audience. We are not that audience. Nor are the media.

The only audience that matters is the RFU leadership, and they almost certainly have a very clear idea of his vision and ambition because they signed off on the money he has spent recruiting coaches to make it happen. As to what has gone wrong and how to put it right, that's going to be one for the standard post-tournament review.

Being a slick communicator in open forum is a nice to have for a coach under most circumstances. And the opinions of the fans only matter to the degree that they stop turning up en masse.

I know it's not my fight, but what the heck ....

Communication does matter to the right audience, and you are correct Poorfour the fans won't matter until England are playing AIs in a Twickenham where only the lower tier is open. But the media do matter too. The RFU leadership will be swayed to some extent by what appears in the press, sorry media, my age is showing. It will take some time, but a constant negative view will have an impact. It is the unfortunate nature of things, but media views can be changed in even in defeat. Just look at the current view on Wales. Over-achieving and learning despite the lack of wins.

Personally I think Borthwick should be given additional time to get his systems working after the sh*tshow Jones left behind. Never understood why you guys kept him on after 2019 as he never seems to have been able to re-build a team. Great at getting things up and going for a first time, but unable to sustain it.

I shouldn't have finished off that bottle of red to drown my disappointment at the result of the U20s game. The draw was probably fair, and let's hope the game tomorrow is as entertaining, but still disappointed Ireland didn't win.

The media don't "deserve" anything...they're a shambles of tosh in this country. All biased to one group or another.....very few actually independent down the line honest straight forward media teams.

SB doesn't have to give them anything...let rhem squirm and cry themselves to sleep at night

I've always said...I'll judge after the AIs...and I still say that.

Yep, media in UK far too quick to build 'em up then knock 'em down. Look at recent articles on IFW, all touting him as next big thing etc etc. Had exactly same with Arundell. If England get a stuffing and IFW has a mare knives no doubt soon be out.

As for Borthwick, if England get hammered it won't matter what he says. Likewise if he pulls off a shock win.
All that matters is how the team play on pitch.

Media clearly does have an impact though. Just don't get why some say communication isn't important. It's normally the fans that will decide and that's not normally down to purely results. The media have been extremely kind to Borthwick so far,because many of them called for him to be appointed, but its about to turn.

Communication is key. But not to media.

It really is. As that's what fans see and hear. That can push some over the edge. See the famous Post match Italy interview with a former england captain.

No 7&1/2 wrote:
But come now Sam Scotland controlled the game we in no way dominated.

We had more possession and territory. We carried more, passed more, iirc we made more metres as well. Our scrum and lineout success was higher. We dominated in every facet bar the scoreboard.

Scotland were fantastic in that they were incredibly clinical. They had a chance and they took it. They were cohesive and hard working on both sides of the ball, they didn't make many serious mistakes. We made some really bad mistakes and turned the ball over more than twenty times, nearly all of which were handling errors and mostly under little pressure.

mountain man wrote:Communication is key. But not to media.

Yes and no. The players will see what you say to the media so you are talking to them via the media as much as you are talking to the fans.

At the end of the day the fans don't really care what you say to the press if you win. Andy Farrell isn't a particularly interesting orator but he's winning and he's talking sense so the Irish love it. Borthwick is even less interesting in front of the media and England have just lost so it's time to pick it apart. Same with Eddie, when he was winning his out there comments to the media were just a bit of eccentric good fun, when we were losing they were the ravings of a mad man.

I think we can move on from the communication and it's importance in modern day sports management.

Today is going to be tight. It will be England's best performance this tournament. But I think Ireland will prevail. My head says Ireland by 4-8. My heart wants to spank you on your home turf by 20+

England all over the place, Ireland very settled and well drilled - can't see past a comfortable win for Ireland unfortunately ... but please no red cards or controversial calls (although at the moment all the dodgy calls seem to be in the France matches).

Heaf wrote:England all over the place, Ireland very settled and well drilled - can't see past a comfortable win for Ireland unfortunately ... but please no red cards or controversial calls (although at the moment all the dodgy calls seem to be in the France matches).

England have two senior teams, the Red Roses and the Red Card Roses...

So. We really need a bonus point today.

Oh joy. Jonker is in the bunker. Any impartiality is gone...

So do you not have to be behind the ball to pick it up from the ruck?

Nice!

Oh wow. We actually attacked!

Now waiting for Jonker to examine it in fine detail to find a way to rule it out ...

Entertainment

Heaf wrote:Now waiting for Jonker to examine it in fine detail to find a way to rule it out ...

You have to be kind to him as Salde was blocking in front of the ball and could have been looked at.

Heaf wrote:Now waiting for Jonker to examine it in fine detail to find a way to rule it out ...

Thankfully he's in the bunker and not the TMO

mountain man wrote:Entertainment

I know. 14 months in and it feel weird doesn't it.

4 tries is the aim today. Avoid 6th place.

Tmo is being nice. Was an Irish scrum that.

Freeman riding that tackle was joyful

Poor Irish kick and even worse kick chase punished nicely by the England backs. Lazy from Ireland there, that will be a sharp wake up call.

English defence applying pressure nicely and Genge proving his knack of making Furlong's life difficult at scrum time.

lostinwales wrote:Freeman riding that tackle was joyful

Daly for all his qualities would not have done that...

England on it here. Just need to do it for 80 mins

That's lazy from Furbank after the tackle. Got to try and make yourself long and get the ball back as far as possible if you're taking the ball into contact without support there.

Makes up for it with a lovely delayed pass though.

Mitchell so much sharper than other 9s for England