Ireland v England - Six Nations Round 4, 9 March 2024

First topic message reminder :

Ireland supremely confident of having any answers to questions that England will pose, according to Bernard Jackman.

Stephen Jones wants lots of bish and bosh and no training.  Stuart Barnes wants Ben Earl in midfield.  Dallaglio wants them to get in some players faces and annoy them a lot.

Farrell doesn't know yet if he'll have Ringrose and Keenan back to consider for squad selection and thus the make up of his bench for 6-2 or 5-3.

Borthwick has two players back for his half-back partnership and the opportunity to continue with Furbank at 15.

No real shots have been fired yet but it's only Monday.

Teams

England
Furbank, Feyi-Waboso, Slade, Lawrence, Freeman, Ford, Mitchell
Genge, George, Cole, Itoje, Martin, Chessum, Underhill, Earl
Dan, Marler, Stuart, Cunningham-South, Dombrandt, Care, Smith, Daly

Ireland
Keenan, Nash, Henshaw, Aki, Lowe, Crowley, Gibson-Park
Porter, Sheehan, Furlong, Beirne, McCarthy, O'Mahony, vd Flier, Doris
Kelleher, Healy, Bealham, Henderson, Conan, Baird, Murray, Frawley

You can't foresee injuries but the 6-2 bench did not help us today. Bold decision that didn't pay off in the end

king_carlos wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Looks like a firm exchange of opinions.

https://twitter.com/brettruganalyst/status/1766521435676111207

Faz Snr is usually very level headed as a coach. It'll be interesting to see if anything comes out about.

He seemed to slap Borthwick on the back on the way in, so I doubt much damage was done.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I do have to admit. I'm a bit annoyed as that secures Borethick a run of games until the AIs.

Grow up. We've beaten Ireland, the best team in the world (probably) playing a nice brand of physical attacking rugby. Surely as an England fan this is what you want to see.

Grow up?just remind me what you were calling Furbank Sam?

Fluffbank. Keeping the rugby tradition of assigning nicknames often slightly amusing or puntastic ones. Don't believe me? Go and try to decipher one of the teamsheets on the rugby thread.

Cumbrian wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Looks like a firm exchange of opinions.

https://twitter.com/brettruganalyst/status/1766521435676111207

Faz Snr is usually very level headed as a coach. It'll be interesting to see if anything comes out about.

He seemed to slap Borthwick on the back on the way in, so I doubt much damage was done.

Didn't they work together with the Lions? They are grown men, I'm sure they can exchange views without falling out. Probably share a drink later and discuss the game.

You can't foresee injuries but the 6-2 bench did not help us today. Bold decision that didn't pay off in the end

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I do have to admit. I'm a bit annoyed as that secures Borethick a run of games until the AIs.

Grow up. We've beaten Ireland, the best team in the world (probably) playing a nice brand of physical attacking rugby. Surely as an England fan this is what you want to see.

Grow up?just remind me what you were calling Furbank Sam?

Fluffbank. Keeping the rugby tradition of assigning nicknames often slightly amusing or puntastic ones. Don't believe me? Go and try to decipher one of the teamsheets on the rugby thread.

So I can go with Borethick. All good.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The only reason I'm still here is to say I told you so. Absolute lie. The keep going refers to banging the drum that Borthwick was the wrong choice when there were better options not considered. And the tactics have been abysmal not getting the best out of some absolute gems we have available. Do you want to reconsider your remark now then or continue the lie? My thought on rugby analysis well who cares? It's not as if you're Ian McGeechan.

That:

 I guess I'm keeping going as at least I can witness the slow realisation in the few defenders that this is really the pinnacle of BorthwickBall.

Is entirely just waiting for people who disagreed with you to be proved wrong so you can laud it over them and you know it.

Honestly, we're just watching someone's posts descend into farce because they are unbearably embittered by their team winning. Actually embarrassing to witness.

Well done England. They just willed themselves to win and then backed themselves to finish.

Interesting to see that (literally) for the first time since the RWC Ireland didn't have an answer for a highly pressurising opposition.

Poor from Ireland today. Didn’t help with the injuries and poor discipline.
Fair play to England though. Deserved. Played very well.

Hopeful we can win the title next Saturday.

carpet baboon wrote:You can't foresee injuries but the 6-2 bench did not help us today. Bold decision that didn't pay off in the end

To be fair it would be hard to call your winger knocking himself out getting his head on the wrong side early in the game. After that point Ireland were between a rock and a hard place as they couldn't replace Gibson-Park with Murray for fresh legs like they normally would though it became somewhat moot after the second HIA.

carpet baboon wrote:You can't foresee injuries but the 6-2 bench did not help us today. Bold decision that didn't pay off in the end

Yeah didn’t help.

George Carlin wrote:Well done England. They just willed themselves to win and then backed themselves to finish.

Interesting to see that (literally) for the first time since the RWC Ireland didn't have an answer for a highly pressurising opposition.

I know it sounds daft because Ireland were on for the slam, but I think England just needed it more...

carpet baboon wrote:You can't foresee injuries but the 6-2 bench did not help us today. Bold decision that didn't pay off in the end

The 6-2 works so brilliantly for SA as their blitz exhausts those big forwards. Hence even guys as phenomenal as Etzebeth tire.

Ireland have a game plan that preserves energy a bit better. So I'm not sure that need to replace the boiler room is the same.

When you have McCarthy, Bierne, Ryan, Henderson and Baird available at second row, I can completely understand the urge to get at least 4 of them in the 23 though. The Ireland lock depth now is obscene. McCarthy has just added a different dimension with his carrying off 9 as well.

George Carlin wrote:Well done England. They just willed themselves to win and then backed themselves to finish.

Interesting to see that (literally) for the first time since the RWC Ireland didn't have an answer for a highly pressurising opposition.

Borthwick going with Chessum at 6 and Martin at lock gave England a lot of mobile physicality. Allowed us to match fire with fire up front. Is this where Ireland missed Sexton? Would he have changed up the game plan realising that Ireland were struggling to gain momentum in attack? England did look vulnerable under the high ball when it was contested. Something Ireland didn't explore as much as I expected them to.

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The only reason I'm still here is to say I told you so. Absolute lie. The keep going refers to banging the drum that Borthwick was the wrong choice when there were better options not considered. And the tactics have been abysmal not getting the best out of some absolute gems we have available. Do you want to reconsider your remark now then or continue the lie? My thought on rugby analysis well who cares? It's not as if you're Ian McGeechan.

That:

 I guess I'm keeping going as at least I can witness the slow realisation in the few defenders that this is really the pinnacle of BorthwickBall.

Is entirely just waiting for people who disagreed with you to be proved wrong so you can laud it over them and you know it.

Honestly, we're just watching someone's posts descend into farce because they are unbearably embittered by their team winning. Actually embarrassing to witness.

The I'm keeping going in the context of that thread was clearing about my view that Borthwick wasn't the right pick in terms of the continuity pick from Jones and not offering the type of rugby that would get fans back excited. I'm not keeping on posting because of that. I've posted consistently since I joined the board I've never said I'd stop posting because my board won't pay players more or england won't pick the players I want or that I've become disillusioned. So on that point you're either lying or are mistaken. I'm fine if this now makes you realise you've been mistaken. But I appears you're more annoyed at me not liking Borthwick above all else.

I'm not bothered if you're embarrassed by someone you don't even know. My only want is for England to achieve that potential and there's still little to suggest that Borthwick is the man to do that. I'd it comes the time where I think I'm wrong I'll change my mind. But again others have drawn the line on the other side saying they're certain Borthwick will achieve all their aims etc. 2 thoughts in the sand but you're bothered about me as I'm against Steve and you don't call anyone else out as they're on your side of the fence.

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The only reason I'm still here is to say I told you so. Absolute lie. The keep going refers to banging the drum that Borthwick was the wrong choice when there were better options not considered. And the tactics have been abysmal not getting the best out of some absolute gems we have available. Do you want to reconsider your remark now then or continue the lie? My thought on rugby analysis well who cares? It's not as if you're Ian McGeechan.

That:

 I guess I'm keeping going as at least I can witness the slow realisation in the few defenders that this is really the pinnacle of BorthwickBall.

Is entirely just waiting for people who disagreed with you to be proved wrong so you can laud it over them and you know it.

Honestly, we're just watching someone's posts descend into farce because they are unbearably embittered by their team winning. Actually embarrassing to witness.

KC please stop....arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a Pidgeon....

Delighted with that and very happy to be proved wrong! I'm going to enjoy my humble pie dinner tonight...

Seems like it was performance on pitch that made difference. Not communication to media

You'll say sour grapes, but false throws/ dummy throws at line outs are normally picked up. That one which ultimately led to the England penalty advantages and game winning drop goal was a bad miss by the officials.

Fair play to England though, they really did up there game and made it a spectacle, but they needed a bit of luck to claim that victory.

The kick from the touchline was not a sure thing though, so why Byrne held on giving away a much easier kick opportunity I'll never know. So yea, a bit of Ireland stupidly giving it away. But also a bit of convenient missed ref calls contributing also.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Well done England. They just willed themselves to win and then backed themselves to finish.

Interesting to see that (literally) for the first time since the RWC Ireland didn't have an answer for a highly pressurising opposition.

Borthwick going with Chessum at 6 and Martin at lock gave England a lot of mobile physicality. Allowed us to match fire with fire up front. Is this where Ireland missed Sexton? Would he have changed up the game plan realising that Ireland were struggling to gain momentum in attack? England did look vulnerable under the high ball when it was contested. Something Ireland didn't explore as much as I expected them to.

The starting 4-8 all had fantastic games. They made 50 tackles between them. Ireland had 92 carries in the match. It's important to note that tackle stats are usually slightly higher than carry stats as double tackles usually get counted for both tacklers. Generally, total individual tackles counted are around 20% increase on total carries. It's still a very impressive number though. Even more so when the system relies on relentless line speed.

The rest of the starting line-up made 52 tackles to 50 for Itoje, Martin, Chess, Underhill and Earl.

14 for Lawrence in there is notable. Ireland clearly targeted him after he struggled with the system a bit last week. He made his shots.

CCS was once again impressive in contact when he came on too. It was such a shame to see him limp off at the end. He's done really well in that impact sub role throughout the tournament.

doctor_grey wrote:

Heaf wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:"engages sarcasm"
well you only won as the TMO deliberately didn't call furbanks foot in touch or Slade playing the ball on the floor, so the moral victory is ours and I never want that ref, assistant ref or TMO again as it's clear they have it out for us.
Enjoy your hollow.victory.


Now do you see how silly that is???

Congratulations to England you were brilliantly physical and didn't let up for the full 80, and more importantly found a way to win right at the end.

Cracking game and it all makes next weekend a bit more exciting

Actually I suspect the TMO had the runs and was in the toilet for most of the match

I am extremely glad the match didn't come down to some borderline TMO decision or a red card.  I'm sure the TMO was hoping the same thing.

BORDERLINE!!!! BOORDERLINE???? His foot was in the front row of the stands DOC. It's blatant persecution

mountain man wrote:Seems like it was performance on pitch that made difference. Not communication to media

Didn't think you were like this mountain. Fair enough.

king_carlos wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Well done England. They just willed themselves to win and then backed themselves to finish.

Interesting to see that (literally) for the first time since the RWC Ireland didn't have an answer for a highly pressurising opposition.

Borthwick going with Chessum at 6 and Martin at lock gave England a lot of mobile physicality. Allowed us to match fire with fire up front. Is this where Ireland missed Sexton? Would he have changed up the game plan realising that Ireland were struggling to gain momentum in attack? England did look vulnerable under the high ball when it was contested. Something Ireland didn't explore as much as I expected them to.

The starting 4-8 all had fantastic games. They made 50 tackles between them. Ireland had 92 carries in the match. It's important to note that tackle stats are usually slightly higher than carry stats as double tackles usually get counted for both tacklers. Generally, total individual tackles counted are around 20% increase on total carries. It's still a very impressive number though. Even more so when the system relies on relentless line speed.

The rest of the starting line-up made 52 tackles to 50 for Itoje, Martin, Chess, Underhill and Earl.

14 for Lawrence in there is notable. Ireland clearly targeted him after he struggled with the system a bit last week. He made his shots.

CCS was once again impressive in contact when he came on too. It was such a shame to see him limp off at the end. He's done really well in that impact sub role throughout the tournament.

The game plan really suits those players. Now Underhill and Martin are match fit and they are playing more cohesively they are starting to thrive. Next week against France will be a big ask on the physicality stakes.

CCS as an impact sub has been really useful, I hope he's available next week.

Thought chessum was great at six. Theo Dan came on and made a difference and Ollie Lawrence is a class centre at 12 or 13. Really pleased for the squad, it will certainly shut me up from criticising them. Well played gentlemen. Finally, hat off to the officials didn't miss a thing of note and made the game a good contest.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Seems like it was performance on pitch that made difference. Not communication to media

Didn't think you were like this mountain. Fair enough.

Not sure what you mean? Ive said all along Comms to media irrelevant. It's what team does on pitch win or lose

I'm not having a dig, just reinforcing what I believe

So does this enforce what the England coaches think that 12 is Lawrence's best position going forward at international level?

And is Chessum seen as a genuine 6 option ongoing or wa strategy simply the gameplan for this particular opponent.
George Martin should make himself a fixture at that tight head lock spot.

In absence of another 12 then probably yes.

He was superb today and considering how poor last match a remarkable performance.
However, England do need another 12.

mountain man wrote:I'm not having a dig, just reinforcing what I believe

Hmm. Fair enough. Just seems a little left field but I may be being sensitive seeing being called an idiot is allowed by the mods now.

I haven't done that. I think you are though digging a bit of a hole at times.

Martin was brilliant as was Chessum. Not often you see Itoje quiet in comparison. May still be a horses for courses selection.

clivemcl wrote:You'll say sour grapes, but false throws/ dummy throws at line outs are normally picked up. That one which ultimately led to the England penalty advantages and game winning drop goal was a bad miss by the officials.

Fair play to England though, they really did up there game and made it a spectacle, but they needed a bit of luck to claim that victory.

The kick from the touchline was not a sure thing though, so why Byrne held on giving away a much easier kick opportunity I'll never know. So yea, a bit of Ireland stupidly giving it away. But also a bit of convenient missed ref calls contributing also.

They missed loads for both sides to be honest - or were just really lenient ...

Seen a lot of crying on some sites about missed stuff by officials.
Anyway.

lostinwales wrote:Martin was brilliant as was Chessum. Not often you see Itoje quiet in comparison. May still be a horses for courses selection.

Martin and Chessum both look like they could be top drawer players in the future. Still got a lot to learn, decision making is a bit off now and then but the sheer physicality of both is a welcome bonus.

mountain man wrote:Seen a lot of crying on some sites about missed stuff by officials.
Anyway.

Wasn't that heaf on here at the start of the match

carpet baboon wrote:

mountain man wrote:Seen a lot of crying on some sites about missed stuff by officials.
Anyway.

Wasn't that heaf on here at the start of the match

Busted

In fairness genge' might have been very lucky early in the first half. Only seen one angle so not saying it was a red but it must have been blooming close

I haven't looked at all possible permutations but what is worst England can finish now? I don't think it's that important as how they play and progress is but was wondering.
Anyway, after today I'm happy whatever. England have definitely showed they are improving.

mountain man wrote:I haven't done that. I think you are though digging a bit of a hole at times.

Don't mind arguing my corner. When you get called out for arguing you want to see England lose just because you correctly say Slade was playing the ball on the floor though...
I'll happily say it's a bit of a double edged sword with England winning though. Purely because I don't think Borthwick and his overall team are good enough. Short term gain may be long term loss. Both the football and rugby teams are sat with very good players being held back by management.

The ref must have seen a few things that may have been looked at in the background as you could hear him saying things like, on the shoulder for me, dropping in the tackle etc ...

mountain man wrote:I haven't looked at all possible permutations but what is worst England can finish now? I don't think it's that important as how they play and progress is but was wondering.
Anyway, after today I'm happy whatever. England have definitely showed they are improving.

5th.

carpet baboon wrote:In fairness genge' might have been very lucky early in the first half. Only seen one angle so not saying it was a red but it must have been blooming close

The ref must have seen a few things that may have been looked at in the background as you could hear him saying things like, on the shoulder for me, dropping in the tackle etc ...

Heaf wrote:The ref must have seen a few things that may have been looked at in the background as you could hear him saying things like, on the shoulder for me, dropping in the tackle etc ...

Indeed the officials are all human like the rest of us, and will make mistakes.
Out of interest is the TMO alone or is there a team working together?
If he's alone that's a lot of pressure to check stuff before it's too late to refer it

lostinwales wrote:Martin was brilliant as was Chessum. Not often you see Itoje quiet in comparison. May still be a horses for courses selection.

I think it might be a selection for now and not necessarily forever. Tom Curry is to come back from injury, CCS is developing, Tom Pearson is a developing talent, Barbeary, Fisilau etc etc.

The current selection does give us a nice balance though and helps the lineout. Something to evolve as opposed to needing to fix.

carpet baboon wrote:

Heaf wrote:The ref must have seen a few things that may have been looked at in the background as you could hear him saying things like, on the shoulder for me, dropping in the tackle etc ...

Indeed the officials are all human like the rest of us, and will make mistakes.
Out of interest is the TMO alone or is there a team working together?
If he's alone that's a lot of pressure to check stuff before it's too late to refer it

Not sure now that have the bunker thing maybe they all work together but the nominated TMO makes the final call?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:I haven't looked at all possible permutations but what is worst England can finish now? I don't think it's that important as how they play and progress is but was wondering.
Anyway, after today I'm happy whatever. England have definitely showed they are improving.

5th.

If France murder Wales tomorrow then England lose to France with no points whilst Italy and Scotland get two points from their games next weekend.

Scotland backlash next weekend and we beat France and suddenly it becomes very interesting at the top.

Ideally Italy and France beat Wales because Gatland deserves a Wooden Spoon.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Martin was brilliant as was Chessum. Not often you see Itoje quiet in comparison. May still be a horses for courses selection.

I think it might be a selection for now and not necessarily forever. Tom Curry is to come back from injury, CCS is developing, Tom Pearson is a developing talent, Barbeary, Fisilau etc etc.

The current selection does give us a nice balance though and helps the lineout. Something to evolve as opposed to needing to fix.

Be interesting to see if Curry does make it back to this level. It will be a shame as at his best he's a special player. I'd have said Underhill's days are numbered also but he's (finally) doing his best to prove me wrong

formerly known as Sam wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Martin was brilliant as was Chessum. Not often you see Itoje quiet in comparison. May still be a horses for courses selection.

I think it might be a selection for now and not necessarily forever. Tom Curry is to come back from injury, CCS is developing, Tom Pearson is a developing talent, Barbeary, Fisilau etc etc.

The current selection does give us a nice balance though and helps the lineout. Something to evolve as opposed to needing to fix.

Sam where would Curry fit in here now....if he makes it back to his best.

Geordie wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Martin was brilliant as was Chessum. Not often you see Itoje quiet in comparison. May still be a horses for courses selection.

I think it might be a selection for now and not necessarily forever. Tom Curry is to come back from injury, CCS is developing, Tom Pearson is a developing talent, Barbeary, Fisilau etc etc.

The current selection does give us a nice balance though and helps the lineout. Something to evolve as opposed to needing to fix.

Sam where would Curry fit in here now....if he makes it back to his best.

I thought Underhill was a thorn in the side of Ireland but it's telling he was the first to be subbed. A good time before Chessum went off (or at least it felt that way) for the noticeably slimmer but no more effective Dombrant to lumber ineffectually around the place.

I suspect Underhill would be the one under the most pressure as although Curry could go into 6 we'd lose physicality and lineout skills albeit adding a bigger breakdown presence and he still carries well. It might depend on the opposition as a more attacking natured team where we're less concerned about set piece dominance (normally an area Ireland are incredible) we might opt for that. If he were to be back for France next week then he'd be straight in at 7 (assuming somehow he was instantly fit and in form). Curry would offer more carrying that Underhill which would start to make the pack look even more all action that it is already, well I say pack but we'll give Dan Cole a bye on that as he's there just to hit rucks in attack it's about as all action as he's going to be and I'd rather he accepted his role rather than tried to pretend he's Genge and go looking for the ball.

At Curry's peak, he'd come in for Underhill here. As strong in the tackle but better over the ball and much stronger in the carry. It's a major hip operation he's undergone though. It's just a case of waiting and seeing there.

I think CCS will be starting 8 sometime next year. His conditioning clearly needs to improve when you look at his average minutes played in pro rugby. He's a rare talent when it comes to his strength in contact combined with being quick for his size though.

Then it'd likely be a case of Earl at 7, picking the blindside depending on tactics. Underhill or Curry if you want the work rate, play all three locks if you want bulk and the lineout option.