England v Ireland; Six Nations Round 3

by **LondonTiger** Tue 23 Feb 2016, 11:12 am

First topic message reminder :

ENGLAND vs IRELAND

Date: Saturday 27th February 2016
Venue: Twickenham
Kick Off: 16:50 (GMT)
Referee: Romain Poite (FFR)
Asst Refs: Nigel Owens (WRU), Alexandre Ruiz (FFR)
TMO: Shaun Veldsman (SARU)
TV Coverage: Live on ITV, RTE, FR2

Head to Head

Played - 119
Wins - 65/47
Draws - 7
Points - 1443/1037

Current Form

England:
W 40-9 v Italy
W 15-9 v Scotland
W 60-3 v Uruguay

Ireland:
L 9-10 v France
D 16-16 v wales
L 20-43 v Argentina

Recent Meetings

05/09/15 England 21 Ireland 13
01/03015 Ireland 19 England 9
22/02/14 England 13 Ireland 10
10/02/13 Ireland 6 England 12
17/03/12 England 30 Ireland 9

Teams

England
England v Ireland; Six Nations Round 3 - Page 3 Queenelizabethii

England v Ireland; Six Nations Round 3 - Page 3 Queenelizabethii

1 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 39 caps)
2 Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 68 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 58 caps)
4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 1 cap)
5 George Kruis (Saracens, 12 caps)
6 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 45 caps)
7 James Haskell (Wasps, 64 caps)
8 Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens, 23 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps)
10 George Ford (Bath Rugby, 19 caps)
11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 37 caps)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 17 caps)
15 Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 45 caps)
Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 5 caps)
17 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 30 caps)
18 Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
19 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 44 caps)
20 Jack Clifford (Harlequins, 2 caps)
21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 56 caps)
22 Elliot Daly (Wasps, uncapped)
23 Alex Goode (Saracens, 20 caps)

Ireland
England v Ireland; Six Nations Round 3 - Page 3 Michaeldhiggins

England v Ireland; Six Nations Round 3 - Page 3 Michaeldhiggins

15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 68
14. Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster) 60
13. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht) 17
12. Stuart McCloskey (Ballynahinch/Ulster)*
11. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 47
10. Jonathan Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster) 58
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 44
1. Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 27
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) Captain 91
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 56
4. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster) 36
5. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 33
6. CJ Stander (Munster) 2
7. Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster)*
8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) Vice Captain 82

Replacements
16. Richard Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster) 14
17. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 56
18. Nathan White (Connacht) 10
19. Ultane Dillane (Corinthians/Connacht)*
20. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster) 7
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster) 68
22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster) 27
23. Simon Zebo (Cork Con/Munster) 22

by Poorfour Thu 25 Feb 2016, 3:29 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Right then, first I have met Mr Owen Farrel and he seems a decent bloke and I think he's a pretty good player, not sure he's a 12, but............... I really really want him to try his big swinging I'm a hard man high tackle on McCloskey, and watch him get sat on his ass.

Now that'd be worth watching. Young Farrell will only hurt himself if he tries to bully our Stu.
Could this be the biggest centre partnership Irish rugby's ever had? They are two brutes.
Before the England Scotland match TJ was writing about how Maitland would smash Farrell. Somehow it didn't happen.

I have read many times about how so and so will smash Farrell. It just does not happen either in the AP or internationally. Farrell has his faults, although he has certainly improved in the last year, but being smashed by big centres is not one of them.

Is that because he doesn't play at 12 (hardly) for his club? Not likely to face centres too often from 10?

Why not? Its the midfield....10's, 12's and 13's will clash LOADS! Its not regimented where 12's run at 12's...13's run at 13's....

To take a recent topical example - Ben Botica made several of Quins' first-up tackles on Tuilagi last Friday. A crash ball 12 will often target the 10 channel because 10s are usually seen as a softer option than their counterpart at 12.

If anything, facing a taller opponent will probably help Farrell; he's fairly tall himself (6'2" I think) so has a tendency to hit too high against smaller players. Facing a bigger player he will be less prone to riding up too high. And McCloskey will serve as a decent warm up for Dr Roberts.

by TightHEAD Thu 25 Feb 2016, 3:31 pm

Should Sexton be playing?

by **rodders** Thu 25 Feb 2016, 3:31 pm

Hopefully McCloskey will tie in England's defenders a bit so Keith Earls has more space and time to kick the ball away.

by beshocked Thu 25 Feb 2016, 3:32 pm

Personally I think Ireland's best chance of victory is using the same gameplan that they used to beat England in last year's 6 nations - hoist the ball into the air, choke tackle, disrupt and put pressure on Ford. The aerial bombardment was successful. Force England into giving away penalties.

This England team is still vulnerable to giving away too many penalties, same English backrow as last year.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 25 Feb 2016, 3:39 pm

beshocked wrote:Personally I think Ireland's best chance of victory is using the same gameplan that they used to beat England in last year's 6 nations - hoist the ball into the air, choke tackle, disrupt and put pressure on Ford. The aerial bombardment was successful. Force England into giving away penalties.

That tactic worked though because the Irish managed, through their pack, to be on the front foot. Other matches in recent years have seen the English pack control affairs and thus the game.

by asoreleftshoulder Thu 25 Feb 2016, 3:46 pm

It was also a miserable day and keeping the ball in hand was tough,what's the forecast for Saturday,oh wait I can just look it up myself !

Cold and probably dry,should be decent conditions to play.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 25 Feb 2016, 3:47 pm

rodders wrote:Hopefully McCloskey will tie in England's defenders a bit so Keith Earls has more space and time to kick the ball away.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 25 Feb 2016, 4:07 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:It was also a miserable day and keeping the ball in hand was tough,what's the forecast for Saturday,oh wait I can just look it up myself !

Cold and probably dry,should be decent conditions to play.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2643743?day=2

by king_carlos Thu 25 Feb 2016, 4:32 pm

rodders wrote:Hopefully McCloskey will tie in England's defenders a bit so Keith Earls has more space and time to kick the ball away.

I think that's similar to Englands plans with tactical kicking. By selecting two fly halfs we can use Ford or Farrell as a dummy so the other has more time to kick the ball directly to opposition back 3 instead.

Taking that bit of pressure of our kickers is vital to give them the time to really select which of the opposition back three they feel like picking out to ensure the ball never hits grass.

It also alleviates that difficult choice between whether to give the receiving player 20 OR 30 metres in front of them without a defender. Deciding whether to kick the ball frustratingly too long for the chasing winger to pressure or comically over doing it just for their own entertainment is plainly too much for either of them to deal with alone.

by BamBam Thu 25 Feb 2016, 4:35 pm

king_carlos wrote:
rodders wrote:Hopefully McCloskey will tie in England's defenders a bit so Keith Earls has more space and time to kick the ball away.

I think that's similar to Englands plans with tactical kicking. By selecting two fly halfs we can use Ford or Farrell as a dummy so the other has more time to kick the ball directly to opposition back 3 instead.

Taking that bit of pressure of our kickers is vital to give them the time to really select which of the opposition back three they feel like picking out to ensure the ball never hits grass.

It also alleviates that difficult choice between whether to give the receiving player 20 OR 30 metres in front of them without a defender. Deciding whether to kick the ball frustratingly too long for the chasing winger to pressure or comically over doing it just for their own entertainment is plainly too much for either of them to deal with alone.

I think you may have taken rodders too literally there KC

by B91212 Thu 25 Feb 2016, 4:40 pm

Notch wrote:Pretty happy with that selection, only quibble is Jackson left out again but in many ways I'm relieved he's available for Ulster... wrong though that is!

My first thought when Lawes was released on Tuesday was he will be available for the Worcester return game (after they beat Saints on the opening day) on Saturday. Didn't last long of course but I guess it shows that I'm a Northampton fan first and foremost before my international side.

by rapidsnowman Thu 25 Feb 2016, 6:00 pm

BamBam wrote:king_carlos wrote:
rodders wrote:
Hopefully McCloskey will tie in England's defenders a bit so Keith Earls has more space and time to kick the ball away.

I think that's similar to Englands plans with tactical kicking. By selecting two fly halfs we can use Ford or Farrell as a dummy so the other has more time to kick the ball directly to opposition back 3 instead.

Taking that bit of pressure of our kickers is vital to give them the time to really select which of the opposition back three they feel like picking out to ensure the ball never hits grass.

It also alleviates that difficult choice between whether to give the receiving player 20 OR 30 metres in front of them without a defender. Deciding whether to kick the ball frustratingly too long for the chasing winger to pressure or comically over doing it just for their own entertainment is plainly too much for either of them to deal with alone.

I think you may have taken rodders too literally there KC

I could be wrong, but I think KC was being ironic and playing along with rodders.

by rapidsnowman Thu 25 Feb 2016, 6:14 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Right then, first I have met Mr Owen Farrel and he seems a decent bloke and I think he's a pretty good player, not sure he's a 12, but............... I really really want him to try his big swinging I'm a hard man high tackle on McCloskey, and watch him get sat on his ass.

I've been desperate for McCloskey to play but lets not get carried away. Farrell is a seasoned international with 37 caps and plays for a top club side, he has a bit of an attitude sometimes, but you don't get to where he is unless you are good at what you do. Jones sees enough in him to play him out of position just to have him in the team.

Let's not heap too much pressure on McCloskey.

by Fanster Thu 25 Feb 2016, 7:49 pm

I struggle to see past an England win here, Irish are too underpowered right now to go and win at Twickenham.

That said I said the same at the RWC when Wales went there.

Hell of a robust centre partnership for Ireland, Henshaw IMO is similar to Scott Williams, not sure how he'll fair in defence against Joseph / Watson, but he'll definately give as good as he gets.

Interesting fixture, but I don't think IReland will have enough.

by Gwlad Thu 25 Feb 2016, 9:03 pm

This will be a battle up front to see who can arm wrestle the other and much closer than those who a talking up an English win against a weak Ireland.

Ireland are due a result and I am fairly certain we'll see their experience and a bit of dog come out on Saturday vs an England side who are buoyed on the back of beating 3 in a row, Uruguay, Scotland and Italy.

by yappysnap Thu 25 Feb 2016, 9:06 pm

You little cad you

by majesticimperialman Thu 25 Feb 2016, 9:30 pm

This will be a battle up front to see who can arm wrestle the other and much closer than those who a talking up an English win against a weak Ireland.

So, if England win it will be because Ireland are weak with injuries.

Just like when England beat a virous riddled NZ team in 2012. and it is not because England was the better team on the day then? Very Happy

by DirtyRucker7 Thu 25 Feb 2016, 11:03 pm

Well Eddie has the right idea to TARGET sexton and give him another whiplash injury to worry his parents, as Dawson said it is refreshing to here an England coach to big up injuring players not like good old fair play Lancaster.
So i did think we would win handsomely but after speaking to Eddie and hearing about cheap shoting everyone i think we will spank them now!
Get sexton hurt within the first quarter game over Ireland.

by Pot Hale Fri 26 Feb 2016, 12:29 am

Another hiding by England??!

I'll just watch the first 70 minutes so whilst it's still all square and then take the cat for a walk whilst JJ & The Hask raindance the tries in.

England by 50 it sounds like.

EJ Expects.

by gregortree Fri 26 Feb 2016, 7:49 am

I have a feeling it will be a match dominated by rampaging back five forwards in the loose busting over broken.play, the gain line.
Billy V, Itoje, Kruis in particular, backed up by the less youthful The Brand.
Hopefully putting the the back 3 plus Joseph, running into clear green space.
Well this is what Eddie told me in that dream last night. ghost

by Poorfour Fri 26 Feb 2016, 9:01 am

Incidentally, the Telegraph and Guardian are reporting from yesterday's press conference that Eddie sees Itoje as a "left-hand lock" who "can play 6 at a pinch" and wants him to be better than Etzebeth. Seems a pretty clear indication of where he wants him to settle.

by **rodders** Fri 26 Feb 2016, 9:17 am

Gwlad wrote:This will be a battle up front to see who can arm wrestle the other and much closer than those who a talking up an English win against a weak Ireland.

It may well be but there is no way that Irish tight 5, plus the reinforcements on the bench are going to match England for 80 minutes, It might be even Stephens for 50 min but eventually that scrum will crumble as it did against France.

England have too much power, too much skill, too much pace and that will show over 80min - Joe may pull off a tactical masterstroke but can't see Ireland having enough with this group of players.

Individually I think Ireland could have some standout performers(Stander, McCloskey, VDF, Henshaw) and will be well drilled but there are too many weak links in the chain at the minute - White, Earls, Kearney, Sexton, Heaslip, Zebo, O'Donnell, Ryan, Ross, Madigan etc. are just not international standard, or at least if they were aren't any more.

O'Connell inspired a lot of guys to play above themselves too and that is badly missing this season.

by rapidsnowman Fri 26 Feb 2016, 9:19 am

Can't wait until Wales v England.

Jones v Gatland should be worth listening to.

~~Mind~~ Mouth games galore!

by wolfball Fri 26 Feb 2016, 9:30 am

rodders wrote:
Gwlad wrote:This will be a battle up front to see who can arm wrestle the other and much closer than those who a talking up an English win against a weak Ireland.
White, Earls, Kearney, Sexton, Heaslip, Zebo, O'Donnell, Ryan, Ross, Madigan etc. are just not international standard, or at least if they were aren't any more..

Rodders you funny lad...

by bluestonevedder Fri 26 Feb 2016, 9:35 am

rodders wrote:
Gwlad wrote:This will be a battle up front to see who can arm wrestle the other and much closer than those who a talking up an English win against a weak Ireland.

It may well be but there is no way that Irish tight 5, plus the reinforcements on the bench are going to match England for 80 minutes, It might be even Stephens for 50 min but eventually that scrum will crumble as it did against France.

England have too much power, too much skill, too much pace and that will show over 80min - Joe may pull off a tactical masterstroke but can't see Ireland having enough with this group of players.

Individually I think Ireland could have some standout performers(Stander, McCloskey, VDF, Henshaw) and will be well drilled but there are too many weak links in the chain at the minute - White, Earls, Kearney, Sexton, Heaslip, Zebo, O'Donnell, Ryan, Ross, Madigan etc. are just not international standard, or at least if they were aren't any more.

O'Connell inspired a lot of guys to play above themselves too and that is badly missing this season.

You really not liking the Irish pack Rodders?

I know you've got a ton of injuries, but I think that pack looks decent enough for a patch job. I've been impressed with O'Donnell so it's a shame to see him out. Why does Ruddock never start?

by **LondonTiger** Fri 26 Feb 2016, 9:40 am

rapidsnowman wrote:Can't wait until Wales v England.

Jones v Gatland should be worth listening to.

~~Mind~~ Mouth games galore!

England v Ireland; Six Nations Round 3 - Page 3 The-ro10

by geoff999rugby Fri 26 Feb 2016, 9:48 am

Ireland have a very weak front 5 bench - that will be a deciding factor.
Also in the 2nd row the superiority of England is stark.
Lastly Ireland half back cover is weak

The difference in the 2nd row and the huge difference in the benches will decide it

by **rodders** Fri 26 Feb 2016, 9:50 am

bluestonevedder wrote:
rodders wrote:
Gwlad wrote:This will be a battle up front to see who can arm wrestle the other and much closer than those who a talking up an English win against a weak Ireland.

It may well be but there is no way that Irish tight 5, plus the reinforcements on the bench are going to match England for 80 minutes, It might be even Stephens for 50 min but eventually that scrum will crumble as it did against France.

England have too much power, too much skill, too much pace and that will show over 80min - Joe may pull off a tactical masterstroke but can't see Ireland having enough with this group of players.

Individually I think Ireland could have some standout performers(Stander, McCloskey, VDF, Henshaw) and will be well drilled but there are too many weak links in the chain at the minute - White, Earls, Kearney, Sexton, Heaslip, Zebo, O'Donnell, Ryan, Ross, Madigan etc. are just not international standard, or at least if they were aren't any more.

O'Connell inspired a lot of guys to play above themselves too and that is badly missing this season.

You really not liking the Irish pack Rodders?

I do like it, so do the opposition that is the problem!

There's just no fear factor there for the opposition, at best they are there to contain rather than dominate.

Healy, Ryan and O'Brien are shell players of what they were - Ferris and O'Connell are gone - hard men and great athletes, David Wallace and Leamy too.

Henderson is a big loss, O'Mahoney at least had a bit of grit.

CJ obviously jumps out as a guy the opposition will be wary off physically but as with Munster he can't carry the pack on his own, it's very average.

by **rodders** Fri 26 Feb 2016, 9:55 am

wolfball wrote:
rodders wrote:
Gwlad wrote:This will be a battle up front to see who can arm wrestle the other and much closer than those who a talking up an English win against a weak Ireland.
White, Earls, Kearney, Sexton, Heaslip, Zebo, O'Donnell, Ryan, Ross, Madigan etc. are just not international standard, or at least if they were aren't any more..

Rodders you funny lad...

Bums the lot of them. They wouldn't last 5 minutes in a James Haskell workout routine.

by bluestonevedder Fri 26 Feb 2016, 10:18 am

rodders wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:
rodders wrote:
Gwlad wrote:This will be a battle up front to see who can arm wrestle the other and much closer than those who a talking up an English win against a weak Ireland.

It may well be but there is no way that Irish tight 5, plus the reinforcements on the bench are going to match England for 80 minutes, It might be even Stephens for 50 min but eventually that scrum will crumble as it did against France.

England have too much power, too much skill, too much pace and that will show over 80min - Joe may pull off a tactical masterstroke but can't see Ireland having enough with this group of players.

Individually I think Ireland could have some standout performers(Stander, McCloskey, VDF, Henshaw) and will be well drilled but there are too many weak links in the chain at the minute - White, Earls, Kearney, Sexton, Heaslip, Zebo, O'Donnell, Ryan, Ross, Madigan etc. are just not international standard, or at least if they were aren't any more.

O'Connell inspired a lot of guys to play above themselves too and that is badly missing this season.

You really not liking the Irish pack Rodders?

I do like it, so do the opposition that is the problem!

There's just no fear factor there for the opposition, at best they are there to contain rather than dominate.

Healy, Ryan and O'Brien are shell players of what they were - Ferris and O'Connell are gone - hard men and great athletes, David Wallace and Leamy too.

Henderson is a big loss, O'Mahoney at least had a bit of grit.

CJ obviously jumps out as a guy the opposition will be wary off physically but as with Munster he can't carry the pack on his own, it's very average.

Maybe there's not the physical fear that players like O'Connell, Wallace, old Healy, Leamy would bring, but there are more technical fears. IReland's lineout has always been good, and with Toner in there you're only going to compete better. We've got two locks who are by no means monsters in the lineout, and give away 4-5 inches in height to Toner. We're going to have to be bang on to win our own lineouts.

Henderson is a massive loss, I agree. He's a quality, quality player.

O'Brien's drop off has been hugely noticeable. He's not carrying half as destructively as he used to. Healy likewise.

Still, there's optimism to be found. I rate both CJ and VDF so it will be interesting to see how they go. Heaslip does what he does to a consistently high level, and McGrath is turning into a hell of a player, both in the loose and at scrum time.

by Cyril Fri 26 Feb 2016, 10:24 am

Apart from the lineout I really don't see what Toner brings to the party. He's this gangly giant who lopes around, like the BFG reaching into children's windows with his weird arms. He reminds me of someone's dad who's hosting his child's party and wants to join in the games. He's enthusiastic, but clumsy and kids keep running through his legs.

Still think Irish fans are slightly underrating their side's chances.

by lostinwales Fri 26 Feb 2016, 10:26 am

Cyril wrote:Apart from the lineout I really don't see what Toner brings to the party. He's this gangly giant who lopes around, like the BFG reaching into children's windows with his weird arms. He reminds me of someone's dad who's hosting his child's party and wants to join in the games. He's enthusiastic, but clumsy and kids keep running through his legs.

Still think Irish fans are slightly underrating their side's chances.

Just don't try chipping the ball over him...

but yes he doesn't look quite right, not really athletic as such just very very tall.

by Poorfour Fri 26 Feb 2016, 10:39 am

Cyril wrote:Apart from the lineout I really don't see what Toner brings to the party. He's this gangly giant who lopes around, like the BFG reaching into children's windows with his weird arms. He reminds me of someone's dad who's hosting his child's party and wants to join in the games. He's enthusiastic, but clumsy and kids keep running through his legs.

Still think Irish fans are slightly underrating their side's chances.

The lineout could be where it's at if Schmidt is tactically astute though - it's currently the weakest part of England's game and they made the first two games much harder than they needed to be by failing to win lineout ball. Ireland - and Toner in particular - are great at disrupting the oppostion throw.

England will be hoping to keep the ball infield, achieve parity at the breakdown, force knock ons and win possession through scrums, then run on turnover ball and use their bench to pull away. Ireland will be far happier to have lineouts and if they can use kicking to touch or with a strong kick chase to pin England in their own half, frustration may take over and Sexton will get the chance to kick.

With two very tight defences, this is going to be a territorial game first and foremost, I think.

by Cyril Fri 26 Feb 2016, 10:47 am

Poorfour wrote:
Cyril wrote:Apart from the lineout I really don't see what Toner brings to the party. He's this gangly giant who lopes around, like the BFG reaching into children's windows with his weird arms. He reminds me of someone's dad who's hosting his child's party and wants to join in the games. He's enthusiastic, but clumsy and kids keep running through his legs.

Still think Irish fans are slightly underrating their side's chances.

The lineout could be where it's at if Schmidt is tactically astute though - it's currently the weakest part of England's game and they made the first two games much harder than they needed to be by failing to win lineout ball. Ireland - and Toner in particular - are great at disrupting the oppostion throw.

England will be hoping to keep the ball infield, achieve parity at the breakdown, force knock ons and win possession through scrums, then run on turnover ball and use their bench to pull away. Ireland will be far happier to have lineouts and if they can use kicking to touch or with a strong kick chase to pin England in their own half, frustration may take over and Sexton will get the chance to kick.

With two very tight defences, this is going to be a territorial game first and foremost, I think.

England's lineout was poor versus Italy, but wasn't it pretty much 100% against Scotland?

by Fanster Fri 26 Feb 2016, 10:55 am

Toner doesn't look devastating but he is effective, he's no Vunipola style rampaging carrier, but his retention rate is good, and his collisions are positive 9/10 times because he punches over tackles and falls right side.

He doesn't generally miss tackles, even if he's not destructive, and he is experienced enough to know what he is required to do.

Take aways Luke Charteris abilities to be a rel nuisance at breakdown and maul and theyre pretty similar, they don't look naturally athletic, but you'd be surprised! Plus hiw eight and scrummaging ability is good!

It doesn't help with the new Ireland tops being so tight, he looks like he has saggy boobs!

by rapidsnowman Fri 26 Feb 2016, 10:59 am

Toner is surprisingly effective in mauls.

It could be the inspector gadget arms.

by HammerofThunor Fri 26 Feb 2016, 11:12 am

rapidsnowman wrote:Toner is surprisingly effective in mauls.

It could be the inspector gadget arms.

And the fact that refs don't ref mauls properly in terms of binding. Not his fault, just playing the game in its current form.

by sensisball Fri 26 Feb 2016, 11:13 am

IMO Toner is probably the most improved front 5 forward in the 6N's over the last 5 or so years. When he first played scrum and lineout was all he did. Now he is effective in most facets of forward play. He tackles, carries and clears rucks effectively. He doesn't stand out because he doesn't have explosive power that blasts opponents out the way but he usually does enough to get the job done on his terms.

I haven't seen much of Itoje but it will be first start and if he struggles in the lineout then all the pressure will move onto Kruis ( as there is no real lineout specialist in the back row).

If Toner disrupts middle ball then England will struggle to get any back play going leading to loads of box kicking. If done badly this will play into Ireland's arms.

by rapidsnowman Fri 26 Feb 2016, 11:14 am

Nothing in this day and age works without toner Run

by BamBam Fri 26 Feb 2016, 11:21 am

One thing I have noticed is that Toner seems to be involved in a lot of Sexton's wrap around moves, always seems to be either him or POM who gets the initial pass .. must be something in that

by eirebilly Fri 26 Feb 2016, 11:26 am

I see that rodders is in good form on this thread already Very Happy

Not unhappy with the side myself although I have absolutely no idea why Paddy Jackson continues to be ignored. He is a much better 10 than Madigan. Madigan is seen to cover a few positions but there are other players that can cover these positions. I think having a specialist 10 to cover Sexton (who will be targeted and possibly off early) is far more important than having someone who can play several positions, albeit that Madigan is primarily a 10.

Ireland have to be in ahead by the 60th minute to stand any chance as the forward replacements for England are far superior to that of Ireland. Liking McCloskey finally getting a look in and Henshaw playing at 13, happy days.

by the-goon Fri 26 Feb 2016, 11:34 am

BamBam wrote:One thing I have noticed is that Toner seems to be involved in a lot of Sexton's wrap around moves, always seems to be either him or POM who gets the initial pass .. must be something in that

He has quite good hands, better than most of our forwards in fairness.

by Alex_Germany Fri 26 Feb 2016, 11:45 am

rodders wrote:

Individually I think Ireland could have some standout performers(Stander, McCloskey, VDF, Henshaw) and will be well drilled but there are too many weak links in the chain at the minute - White, Earls, Kearney, Sexton, Heaslip, Zebo, O'Donnell, Ryan, Ross, Madigan etc. are just not international standard, or at least if they were aren't any more.

O'Connell inspired a lot of guys to play above themselves too and that is badly missing this season.

That is nice to hear for an England fan. Ireland seems to have had quite a production line of 2nd rowers and back rowers over the last decade. And that includes Heaslip. It is nice not to see O'Connell and and O'Brien though.

I've never heard of Sexton as a "weak link"! He may be at risk physically but as Lawes isn't starting, I don't think he'll be targeted in a borderline-legal manner.

Over the last decade, I think Ireland have been weak at scrum half, but Connor Murray seems to have fixed that.

by sad_gimp Fri 26 Feb 2016, 2:56 pm

I think the quality of the kicking and lineout is going to decide the game. Probably going to be another borefest like Ireland v Wales with two defences battering away at each other for 80 minutes.

If Ford was showing any kind of form I'm be quite optimistic for an England win but I have this feeling he's going to bottle it.

by SecretFly Fri 26 Feb 2016, 3:18 pm

Alex_Germany wrote:
rodders wrote:

Individually I think Ireland could have some standout performers(Stander, McCloskey, VDF, Henshaw) and will be well drilled but there are too many weak links in the chain at the minute - White, Earls, Kearney, Sexton, Heaslip, Zebo, O'Donnell, Ryan, Ross, Madigan etc. are just not international standard, or at least if they were aren't any more.

O'Connell inspired a lot of guys to play above themselves too and that is badly missing this season.

That is nice to hear for an England fan. Ireland seems to have had quite a production line of 2nd rowers and back rowers over the last decade. And that includes Heaslip. It is nice not to see O'Connell and and O'Brien though.

I've never heard of Sexton as a "weak link"! He may be at risk physically but as Lawes isn't starting, I don't think he'll be targeted in a borderline-legal manner.

Over the last decade, I think Ireland have been weak at scrum half, but Connor Murray seems to have fixed that.

????

Stringer weak? What Murray has helped Ireland too is an increased snail's pace. Scrum halves need a giddy brain and a perpetual motion sensibility. Murray is physical, can sometimes spot a try close to the line....but please, nobody tell me he's an ideal speed game rugby scrumhalf.

by hugehandoff Fri 26 Feb 2016, 4:03 pm

"sensiball the thing is England can potentially strengthen the lineout by bringing on Lawes and putting Itoje to 6 later in the game."

I actually like this as an option, but overall very excited to see how Itoje goes in his first start.

by beshocked Fri 26 Feb 2016, 4:03 pm

sensisball wrote:IMO Toner is probably the most improved front 5 forward in the 6N's over the last 5 or so years. When he first played scrum and lineout was all he did. Now he is effective in most facets of forward play. He tackles, carries and clears rucks effectively. He doesn't stand out because he doesn't have explosive power that blasts opponents out the way but he usually does enough to get the job done on his terms.

I haven't seen much of Itoje but it will be first start and if he struggles in the lineout then all the pressure will move onto Kruis ( as there is no real lineout specialist in the back row).

If Toner disrupts middle ball then England will struggle to get any back play going leading to loads of box kicking. If done badly this will play into Ireland's arms.

sensiball the thing is England can potentially strengthen the lineout by bringing on Lawes and putting Itoje to 6 later in the game.

England have relied too much on Kruis so far as the primary jumper so they might mix things up, Robshaw might be used more. I expect the professor of the lineout, Borthwick to do his homework.

Personally I think pairing Kruis-Itoje is good because this season they've worked well in tandem and compliment each other.

by Scottrf Fri 26 Feb 2016, 4:11 pm

beshocked wrote:Personally I think pairing Kruis-Itoje is good

Shock.

by beshocked Fri 26 Feb 2016, 4:26 pm

Scottrf wrote:
beshocked wrote:Personally I think pairing Kruis-Itoje is good
Shock.

You don't think it is? Both have been playing very well this season.

by Scottrf Fri 26 Feb 2016, 4:29 pm

I mean shock that you would want to play two Sarries players.

I agree though. I was with you on Itoje when everyone was saying he wasn't ready for an international call up.

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