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6 NATIONS 2018 - England v Wales build up/Match/Autopsy Thread - 12-6

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Post by TightHEAD Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:13 pm

England v Wales (The Big One) ITV 16:45pm


So much rests on this game. Wales look strong, England did enough in Rome to look comfortable.

Really hard to see how this wil play out.

Discuss.

Ref - Jérôme Garcès (France)

Head to head - Played - 130 Eng 61 - Wales 57 - Drawn 12




England Team

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins 65 caps) 14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby 29 caps) 13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby 36 caps) 12 Owen Farrell (Saracens 54 caps) 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 30 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 41 caps) 9 Danny Care (Harlequins 77 caps)

1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens 45 caps) 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 90 caps) 3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 78 caps)
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 48 caps) 5 Maro Itoje (Saracens 15 caps) 6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 62 caps) 7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 60 caps) 8 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 4 caps)

Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens 21 caps) 17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs 1 cap) 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs 6 caps) 19 George Kruis (Saracens 22 caps)  20 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby 4 caps) 21 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens 27 caps) 22 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors 9 caps) 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs 24 caps)




Wales team
Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets); Josh Adams (Worcester), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Steff Evans (Scarlets); Rhys Patchell (Scarlets), Gareth Davies (Scarlets); Rob Evans (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys capt), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester).

Replacements: Elliot Dee (Dragons), Wyn Jones (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Bradley Davies (Ospreys), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Aled Davies (Scarlets), Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), George North (Northampton).


NO TRY - https://mobile.twitter.com/mattyjwills/status/962615635321737217/video/1


Last edited by TightHEAD on Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:05 am; edited 8 times in total
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Post by TightHEAD Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:17 pm

I hope England sharpen up our defence, Italy looked like scoring every time they got in our 22.
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Post by SecretFly Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:29 pm

Can't see this thread getting much traffic over the week..........
It's just a game that won't capture the imagination.

I'm just glad one of them will lose............ Wink

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Post by Heaf Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:30 pm

Could be a draw ...

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Post by SecretFly Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:34 pm

maybe even better .... OK

Nah, of course it'll be the big game it always promises to be. But Wales will find that they have to get down and dirty more and England will certainly have to up the physicality and tempo.

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Post by Guest Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:41 pm

It’s a big, big ask for Wales. We know Wales will put more into this game than any other game, or get extra motivation from it or whatever (if/why they do that is another argument for another thread), but England at HQ is such a tall order. I just hope they keep the ball alive again and not get sucked into a forward battle. Could be a real cracker if we both start running it. Will Wales find the same gaps that they found against Scotland? Probably not. So the question is whether the players can create the space. I’m hopeful that these players can unlock the English defence. Italy managed it a bit today.

The other question is selection. For me, the players who played against Scotland should now be in possession of the jersey and the returning players need to show enough club form to dislodge them. I’d keep the same side if there are no injuries. I’d be sad to see North parachuted in when he’s not shown anything to displace Steff Evans, for example.

One area I’m worried about is the scrum. Yesterday we were against a 3rd string Scotland front row and didn’t really make it creek. Maybe in the 2nd half when Francis and Jones came on we got the nudge on a few times. But not much. Not sure how hard we tried to attack their scrum or whether the instruction was just to get a platform and then get it out to attack (as opposed to the Adam Jones era of scrummage, scrummage, scrummage until the we hopefully get a penalty). But against a 1st choice England front row I worry that they may get the nudge on and we get in a spot of bother in that area. We need a good platform for the game we seem to be trying to play.

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Post by Poorfour Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:04 pm

Apparently Eddie was beasting the England squad in training as lay as Thursday. That being the case, if they looked a little jaded in Italy it could well be because the preparation was geared towards them peaking for next weekend.

Sad to say, I thought Italy provided more competition than Scotland did this weekend, but since guess we will find out next weekend. Looks like the game of the week, anyway.
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Post by Scottrf Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:14 pm

Wales win by less than 30 at home: One of the worst Scottish performances ever.
England win by more than 30 away: Competitive Italian performance.

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Post by LondonTiger Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:20 pm

England should win, but by no means guaranteed. Hopefully this thread can remain vaguely civil, but unlikely Smile

Will probably avoid this now until after the game.

Have fun, and play nice.

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Post by Guest Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:18 pm

Scottrf wrote:Wales win by less than 30 at home: One of the worst Scottish performances ever.
England win by more than 30 away: Competitive Italian performance.

All I see here is anti-Welsh sentiment Wink

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Post by RiscaGame Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:10 pm

Poorfour wrote:Apparently Eddie was beasting the England squad in training as lay as Thursday. That being the case, if they looked a little jaded in Italy it could well be because the preparation was geared towards them peaking for next weekend.

Sad to say, I thought Italy provided more competition than Scotland did this weekend, but since guess we will find out next weekend. Looks like the game of the week, anyway.

That sounds a bit Gatland like to beast his team and then revert to normal training after a couple of games. Who would’ve thought the ultimate coach Eddie Jones would have to copy Gatland’s methods. Madness.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:18 pm

It will a be a tough game to call to be honest. England at home will hope fully see them win.

But i do not al waysl agree with home advantage. Wales played some very good rugby against Scotland, even though Scotland was poor it was still a good display from Wales.

England played well for most of the game today, but Italy was at one time with in touching distance. England will have ti up their game next  week against Wales, and not give Wales any chance to play.

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Post by TightHEAD Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:23 pm

LondonTiger wrote:England should win, but by no means guaranteed. Hopefully this thread can remain vaguely civil, but unlikely Smile

Will probably avoid this now until after the game.

Have fun, and play nice.

I do hope so, at the end of the day we all love our game, let’s put everything behind us and enjoy this weeks build up.

Counting down the hrs already
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Post by GeordieFalcon Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:37 pm

If England are to win they will have to up the intensity MASSIVELY!

They looked ponderous and half asleep.

They will also HAVE to sort out the wider defensive issues that Italy exposed quite clearly today. Wales would exploit them far more ruthlessly.

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Post by Guest Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:49 pm

Thing is though, GF, England looked ponderous and half asleep (your words!) but still put 40 odd points on Italy. Away too. And everyone knows that Italy are usually best first game up. Their heads seem to go down more and more with each defeat that follows until some lucky team gets them in the final game and puts a cricket score on. So this was Italy at their best, probably, and England slept walked to 40+ points. Sign of a very good team.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:56 pm

I would expect Ireland, Wales and probably France to put big scores on that Italy side.

The fact they scored the tries they did is a big concern to Eng land.

The other sides will target that.

I was not impressed with that performance today. Only with 10 minutes to go did we actually see the forwards linking between them with pop passes , quick offloaded etc.

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Post by SecretFly Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:30 pm

It'll be okay Geordie.  Let's say England knew they needed 12 tries out of Italy to win a big competition.  I say they'd have scored them if that was the requirement.

They were just practicing.  Really, I don't know what English fans (some of you) would be worried about yet.  England's real 6N starts next week.  That's when they'll have to bring their A game.  I think it's there in the locker for safe keeping until then.

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Post by lostinwales Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:52 pm

Oh come on. England scored almost every time they could be arsed to do so. There was that time that George (sry 'the pack') messed up a 5m lineout but they took their other chances very well.

England will score tries against anyone

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Post by BamBam Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:27 am

Many thanks to whoever banned Gwlad for a week in the lead up to this


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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:54 am

Think this will be a terrific match. England looked very strong against a competitive Italy side, that Simmonds looked very handy.

Wales did exactly what they needed to do against Scotland, however it's hard to judge where they are. They fed off our limitless supply of mistakes.

I seriously doubt England will make half the mistakes that we did however the loss of Youngs might knock them a wee bit out of kilter.

Hard to call this one.

I wonder if Wales and by extension the Scarlets backline will have better luck than the Scotland (Glasgow) backline did last year.
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Post by mid_gen Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:24 am

BamBam wrote:Many thanks to whoever banned Gwlad for a week in the lead up to this

Marvellous, looking forward to some rugby chat in this thread for a change Smile

Not sure what changes EJ will make...likely nothing apart from 9.

What injury returnees do we get this week?


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Post by lostinwales Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:35 am

mid_gen wrote:
BamBam wrote:Many thanks to whoever banned Gwlad for a week in the lead up to this

Marvellous, looking forward to some rugby chat in this thread for a change Smile

Not sure what changes EJ will make...likely nothing apart from 9.

What injury returnees do we get this week?


That would be a first.

We could end up with 3 Exeter props on the pitch late on. Could be fun.

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Post by rapidsnowman Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:49 am

I hope Gatland gives us his detailed prediction before the match this time.

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Post by Poorfour Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:06 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Think this will be a terrific match. England looked very strong against a competitive Italy side, that Simmonds looked very handy.

Wales did exactly what they needed to do against Scotland, however it's hard to judge where they are. They fed off our limitless supply of mistakes.

I seriously doubt England will make half the mistakes that we did however the loss of Youngs might knock them a wee bit out of kilter.

Hard to call this one.

I wonder if Wales and by extension the Scarlets backline will have better luck than the Scotland (Glasgow) backline did last year.

Wales have a better pack than Scotland did. I agree that it's hard to tell where Wales are - Scotland gifted you so much good possession. But the Scarlets backline integrated well and played whatr was in front of them. The big question is which side will be better at putting the other under pressure and forcing those mistakes. I'd still favour England to win at home, but it looks a much closer game than it did two days ago and will probably go to the wire.

There's also the question of whether Gatland can outthink Eddie or vice versa.
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Post by dummy_half Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:08 am

mid_gen wrote:
BamBam wrote:Many thanks to whoever banned Gwlad for a week in the lead up to this

Marvellous, looking forward to some rugby chat in this thread for a change Smile

Not sure what changes EJ will make...likely nothing apart from 9.

What injury returnees do we get this week?


Agree that I don't expect any changes for England other than those forced by injury, so obviously Care to start at 9. Haven't yet heard anything about other absentees, although I thought Watson was limping at the end of the first half - seemed to recover well enough.

I think Mercer will be back with the squad (if he had a cold rather than flu), but I don't think we get anyone else back until the third game (Marler and Haskell back from suspension, possibly Hughes).

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Post by Poorfour Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:13 am

I think it's possible that JJ will start at 13 rather than Te'o. We might also see a slightly rejigged back row - though Sunday's unit had a sort of unorthodox balance, so maybe Eddie will stick with it.
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Post by BamBam Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:18 am

Would anyone want to see Sam Underhill brought in against Wales? Probably means Lawes would get dropped, is losing a lineout presence worth what Underhill brings?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:19 am

Yes. Yes it is.

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Post by lostinwales Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:21 am

dummy_half wrote:
mid_gen wrote:
BamBam wrote:Many thanks to whoever banned Gwlad for a week in the lead up to this

Marvellous, looking forward to some rugby chat in this thread for a change Smile

Not sure what changes EJ will make...likely nothing apart from 9.

What injury returnees do we get this week?


Agree that I don't expect any changes for England other than those forced by injury, so obviously Care to start at 9. Haven't yet heard anything about other absentees, although I thought Watson was limping at the end of the first half - seemed to recover well enough.

I think Mercer will be back with the squad (if he had a cold rather than flu), but I don't think we get anyone else back until the third game (Marler and Haskell back from suspension, possibly Hughes).

I thought Watson was clutching his arm. I was half surprised to see him back after the break but it was obviously not serious. Youngs out. Concerned about Brown to be honest. Expecting the rest of the team to stay the same, including Te'o. JJ is a better center, but for all of JJ's speed and all round qualities I think Te'o is a better fit as a starter, given the rest of the team we have.

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:16 am

Do you think Jones has already called up scrum half cover but just hasn't announced it publicly?

There's not long between matches, so you'd think it would pay dividends to get people in camp as soon as possible.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:18 am

He said he's contacted a 'kicking scrum half'.

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:26 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:He said he's contacted a 'kicking scrum half'.
Aa popular dog at "Puppy Bowl" was called Mr Wigglesworth, so searching twitter for news has become a bit more complicated.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:38 am

I hope jones was hinting so people would get the wrong idea. If true it's only going to be him.

*hint rather than hunt


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Post by LordDowlais Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:43 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Wales did exactly what they needed to do against Scotland, however it's hard to judge where they are. They fed off our limitless supply of mistakes.


Scotland lost it then, Wales did nothing to win it as they were given a limitless supply of mistakes ?

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Post by Scottrf Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:45 am

Teams don't just make mistakes randomly. Wales deserve credit.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:46 am

Very even game for the majority of it. Hard to judge until england game as Scotland's handling.was uncharacteristically poor.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:39 am

BamBam wrote:Would anyone want to see Sam Underhill brought in against Wales? Probably means Lawes would get dropped, is losing a lineout presence worth what Underhill brings?

Why drop Lawes?

Move him to second row and drop Itoje who wasn't great.


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Post by Scottrf Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:10 am

As expected it is Wiggle, and I think Mercer is back in.

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:21 am

BamBam wrote:Many thanks to whoever banned Gwlad for a week in the lead up to this


Welcome back BamBam, so glad you managed to get your wifi back up and running.

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Post by lostinwales Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:22 am

Scottrf wrote:As expected it is Wiggle, and I think Mercer is back in.

To be honest he should bring 2 9's in. Keep everyone guessing for a couple of days.

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:25 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Very even game for the majority of it. Hard to judge until england game as Scotland's handling.was uncharacteristically poor.

Probably for the majority of the first half even though Scotland couldn't make a dent. The second half was a different story. Scarlets defend well, counter-attack and attack the lineout. That's how Wales played and it worked.

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Post by Poorfour Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:26 am

Scottrf wrote:As expected it is Wiggle, and I think Mercer is back in.

I would not be surprised to see Wigglesworth starting the match. If it were a less experienced scrum half, I would expect Care to start, but Eddie may well prefer to have him as a finisher.
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Post by carpet baboon Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:29 am

Is wiggs really the next best 9 England have.? For me he's a bit meh alright but nothing special pretty steady but not gonna make much of an impact as a sub

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Post by thomh Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:30 am

lostinwales wrote:Oh come on. England scored almost every time they could be arsed to do so. There was that time that George (sry 'the pack') messed up a 5m lineout but they took their other chances very well.

England will score tries against anyone

I may be underestimating the level of precision required in international lineout throwing, but I'm not convinced the throw was off. Itoje was pretty much at full stretch to receive it - Parisse just got up in front of him.

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Post by lostinwales Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:36 am

thomh wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Oh come on. England scored almost every time they could be arsed to do so. There was that time that George (sry 'the pack') messed up a 5m lineout but they took their other chances very well.

England will score tries against anyone

I may be underestimating the level of precision required in international lineout throwing, but I'm not convinced the throw was off. Itoje was pretty much at full stretch to receive it - Parisse just got up in front of him.

In the Italy game Itoje, for once, actually looked mortal.

To my shame I had not really analysed what happened. I just noticed it was he who can do no wrong throwing the ball in.

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Post by thomh Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:43 am

Well it doesn't make it Itoje's fault either - just a brilliant steal.

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:45 am

lostinwales wrote:
Scottrf wrote:As expected it is Wiggle, and I think Mercer is back in.

To be honest he should bring 2 9's in. Keep everyone guessing for a couple of days.
Two would be a good idea in case Care gets crocked. I was wondering on Sunday who would be most likely to operate as a makeshift scrum half. There's no-one like Healey or Foden in the current England set-up. It's unlikely two scrum halves go down in one game but chances increase when one goes down early. Perhaps Ford would be the best stop-gap in a game.

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Post by beshocked Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:46 am

I predicted a Welsh win vs Scotland, Scotland have a poor record in general away from home, Wales also have a good record vs Scotland.

On the other hand for this game - England are at home, have the better head to head vs Wales in the last few games (yes I realise Wales won in 2015 RWC but more often than not have been on the losing end).

England have less defensive frailties than Scotland. Don't expect the defence to be as leaky, Wales will have to work harder for their points IMO.

Then there's of course the England bench, whilst Scotland had little impact, England has plenty.

Wales will need to find another gear to beat England IMO.

Now of course if Wales gains some momentum they will be dangerous but I think player for player, England are superior.

Simmonds' good form should be a cause of concern for Wales because no 8 was a potential weakness going into this game but his pace and skill will be different to what Wales have faced from England in the past at 8.


As for Itoje, unfortunately he had a pretty poor day at the office. Giving away too many penalties, allowing Parisse to outfox him at the lineout, missed at least one tackle.

I hope he comes out firing vs Wales, of course he has happy memories of that 2016 game.... Whistle


Last edited by beshocked on Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:46 am

Underthrown but it looks like underhill who had just come on was also late for the lift with vunipola.

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Post by BamBam Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:48 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:Many thanks to whoever banned Gwlad for a week in the lead up to this


Welcome back BamBam, so glad you managed to get your wifi back up and running.

Those of us who work in an office for a living tend not to do so over the weekend.

You clearly had no problem running home from school on time to login

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