Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

First topic message reminder :

Here’s an easy one. Who was the first European rugby union to win all tests in a tour series in the Southern Hemisphere?

Whilst Ireland's playing history - home and away - against South Africa and New Zealand was littered with one failure after another in the amateur days, surprisingly their record against Australia is pockmarked with wins at home and on the road, albeit matches were held less frequently in the BSE - Baggy Shorts Era.

Not many people might know this, but Ireland has had 4 proper rugby tours of Australia - in 1967, 1979, 1994, and 1999. By proper, I mean old-style tours involving matches against provincial union or state teams as well as one or two test matches against the Wallabies. And rather surprisingly, Ireland have won two tours and lost two.

Ireland’s fifth tour of Australia begins with the first of three tests on 9 June and it promises to settle a few scores, mark the overall ledger up in favour of one, and probably create a few bragging and bagging rights along the way for fans and commentators.

Australia won the first two tests between the countries in 1927 and 1947 in Lansdowne Road in Dublin. On the Australian tour of Britain, Ireland and France in 1958, Ireland got their first test win on the board. Over the next 20 years, the teams met 7 times, with Ireland winning six of them, including their first-ever away test in Sydney as part of their first 6-game tour of Australia in 1967.

Ireland's last two test wins in Australia were those of the famous 1979 tour when the Irish team had their most successful winning patch, playing 8 games, including two tests, and losing just once against local representative team, Sydney.

Ollie Campbell, Mike Gibson, Terry Kennedy, Paul McNaughton, Tony Ward, Willie Duggan, Moss Keane, Fergus Slattery were some of the more well-known names on that tour. Tony Ward was the star name playing outhalf for Ireland. He had been named European Player of the Year for the second year running. All the running assumptions were that he’d play in a few of the run-up games and start the first test at the helm. A few days beforehand, the Irish manager and coach thought different and, inexplicably to nearly everyone, picked Campbell to start.

Across the two tests, Ireland scored 36 points with Campbell kicking 28 of them bringing his total to 60 points for the tour. He was named player of the tour. Ward, by his own admission in his autobiography, never played as well again and laid blame squarely at the manager and coach’s door for how they handled what became known in Irish rugby as ‘The Decision’.

Campbell returned home the hero of the hour by helping to claim the first individual tour victory in all tests by a northern team in the Southern Hemisphere. (France had won a test match but drawn the other test on tours of SA in 1958 and Oz 1972.) After the tour, Ireland’s overall win record stood at 6 wins to Australia’s 3.

Campbell and the team were cheered to the rafters. Ireland went on to win the Five Nations in 1982, shared it with France in 1983 and won it outright again in 1985. And then the curtain came down. And the roof started to fall in.

Two further 2-test tours against Australia followed in 1994 and 1999 - Ireland lost all the test matches and most of the midweek games against ACT, Sydney, and New South Wales amongst others.

Those two tours formed part of what is probably the lowest period in Irish rugby. Ireland played 11 tests against Australia, 8 versus New Zealand and 6 against South Africa between 1980 and 2002 - they lost every game. Despite their initial successes in the 1980s, their record in that period against Five/Six Nations opponents was not much better - 3 wins from 24 against France, 7 from 24 vs both England and Scotland, and even losing 3 from 8 against Italy.

From 2001 onwards, when professionalism finally took hold, and Irish provinces entered the Celtic League, the fortunes of the Irish provinces and test side changed - first under Eddie O'Sullivan, winning a test again against Australia in 2002 and for the first time against South Africa (2004). They moved from being regular wooden spooners in the 90's to competing at the top in the new Six Nations. Then they finally achieved a second Grand Slam in 2009 with Declan Kidney, 61 years after their first. They remained unbeaten that year finishing with a 15-10 win against Lions victors and the reigning Tri-Nations champions, South Africa.

Of course, after Ireland finally won again in 2002, Australia promptly won the next four tests. Another Irish win in 2006 was followed by two Wallaby wins and a draw. Then came the RWC pool match in 2011 with both teams meeting on neutral NZ territory. Australia ran into Stephen Ferris and Sean O’Brien for the first time and Will Genia found himself being picked up and carried backwards whilst his team-mates were held up time and again in the famous choke tackle and eventually out of the game. Australia won the next test in 2013, and Ireland won the next one a year later, and the next one again in 2016.

Nonetheless, Australia continue to have the upper hand - 21 wins to Ireland’s 11 (and a sister-smooching draw). But Ireland is determined to close the gap further.

So now it’s the turn of Joe Schmidt to bring the Ireland squad down-under for a three-test series in June. Expectations are high with Ireland’s recent Grand Slam win and recent record against the Wallabies.

Except they haven’t won in Oz for 39 years.

Their last away loss was in Brisbane in June 2010 as part of a NZ/Aus Tour. On that day, newcomer outhalf, Johnny Sexton, kicked all of Ireland’s 15 points in the first half, to Australia’s 16 points. But the Declan Kidney-coached team, off the back of a 97-point shellacking from the All Blacks and NZ Maori in the previous weeks, and down a few key players, couldn’t overtake the Wallabies as Giteau notched another couple of penalties to finish them off - 22-15.

Eight years on from Brisbane, both teams are in different places and ranking. Cheika is hoping to fashion a team that can compete and win in the Rugby Championship. He needs a decent scalp on his belt going into that battle. Schmidt has the 6N in his back pocket and a team that is beginning to hum nicely with a mix of old heads and young hearts running a new 12-match streak. Ireland are the current holders of the Lansdowne Cup - the trophy fought between the two sides since 1999.

England, Scotland & Wales have announced squads with development and player rest on their minds as coaches seek to add depth to their squads for RWC 2019. Irish pundits and fans have been making similar noises querying whether players such as Sexton, Murray, Furlong, Stander should rest up on their summer hols and let the younger Turks get more time and experience. Schmidt has faced this before, imposed through injury rather than selection by choice, when he brought a relatively raw squad to South Africa and gave much needed game time to some new faces including Furlong, Henderson, Roux, Stander, and Marmion.

Schmidt will want to win the series, but he needs to give more time to the newbies. He’s got a few injuries such as Henderson, O’Brien, Farrell, Best but still has plenty of choice this time around and all of them hungry for some tasty wallaby.

Ireland Squad (Summer Tour 2018, Australia)

FORWARDS (18)

Tadhg Beirne (Scarlets) uncapped
Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 7 caps
Sean Cronin (St Mary's College/Leinster) 61 caps
Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 23 caps
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 78 caps
Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 38 caps
Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 3 caps
Dan Leavy (UCD/Leinster) 9 caps
Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster) 47 caps
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 20 caps
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 47 caps
Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 7 caps
Quinn Roux (Galwegians/Connacht) 5 caps
James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 8 caps
John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 13 caps
Niall Scannell (Munster) 4 caps
CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 23 caps
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 58 caps

BACKS (14)
Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 7 caps
Ross Byrne (UCD/Leinster) uncapped
Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Leinster) 10 caps
Andrew Conway (Garryowen/Munster) 6 caps
John Cooney (Terenure College RFC/Ulster) 1 cap
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 67 caps
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Leinster) 33 caps
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 83 caps
Jordan Larmour (St Mary's College/Leinster) 3 caps
Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht) 21 caps
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 64 caps
Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 13 caps
Johnny Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster) 73 caps
Jacob Stockdale (Ballynahnch/Ulster) 9 caps

IRELAND SUMMER TOUR 2018 FIXTURES

Saturday 9th June, 2018
Australia v IRELAND
Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane, KO 20.05 local (11.05 IRL)

Saturday 16th June, 2018
Australia v IRELAND
AAMI Park, Melbourne, KO 20.05 local (11.05 IRL)

Saturday 23rd June, 2018
Australia v IRELAND
Allianz Park, Sydney KO 20.05 local (11.05 IRL)


Ireland win the series 2-1 with the final test in Sydney ending 20-16.

Not sure you can say the game was already won there Geoff, he came on initially towards the end of the first half and played very confidently. As I said earlier, I was not so confident in him but he showed me that I would have faith in him to control a game from the off.

I do have to agree with guns here that he (and Ireland) would certainly benefit if he were to move to Ulster. I think that the forming of partnerships (familiarity) of 9 and 10 to be incredibly important and if Carbery were to link up with Cooney for Ulster, we could see them becoming the back-ups to Murray/Sexton.

geoff999rugby wrote:Sorry Fly re Payne - a miss read on my part
Eirebilly he came on when the game was one, yet to see him dictate a game from the start.
Also doesn't play 10 at Leinster.
I have no idea how you can put him in front of a fully functioning Jackson
Of course the whole thing will be mute if Jackson goes abroad

If Jackson does then to be brutally honest Ireland will go into the World Cup
one injury away from failure (as in no prospect of making SFs)

However important others are I would not say that of anyone else
Not even Murray

Well, like all things in life - the future isn't written yet so you might prove right in that idea that if Jackson isn't involved, it's curtains for us if Sexton is knocked out (of the competition).
But I do think you're overselling the importance of Jackson myself, Geoff.

Once upon a time, people felt Ireland couldn't dream of going into really important big games without O'Brien. He wasn't missed during the 6N. And that's not because we struggled through but because the game was as smooth as a baby's bum and we were just a superior well-oiled side.
Zebo is another example. 'Don't be a fool, Schmidt! Don't let your pride stop you from picking Zebo and losing us a chance at a title!" Even at one point when things were going good, I suggested Joe take Zebo in to help us get the whole thing - the Slam. He wasn't missed during the 6N.

If Schmidt didn't think Carbery was ready to deputise for Sexton then he'd be hovering around an alternative. That game in England wasn't won. It was safe-ish because people operate on odds and it was considered that the odds on England stealing it at that end stage were low. But it wasn't impossible and they were pretty hot at the end there.

So Schmidt trusted the younger guys to hold out. They just about did when England actually became a more threatening force than they had been for most of the game.
People forget to appreciate the dynamics of that end-game. Teams have habitually thrown the kitchen sink at us in end-games - that's when they think we're tiring, that's when they think they might get an advantage over our real greenhorns, that's when they put on their own speedier subs. So in a sense, that end-game for us has proven the most difficult period - that's when we're tested the hardest

I agree moving to Ulster would help him, and there are rumours Jackson will leave, with Carbery will come up for a year.
Carbery simply has to play 10 regularly to be a credible back up for Ireland otherwise we are in trouble.
Given the importance of the WC the IRFU will make this happen.
The fact Bryne has been playing 10 makes me wonder is it is, unofficially a done deal.

Fly personally I have never considered SOB or Zebo as must have players.
My point is, currently Carbery, is not there yet and is not getting game time at 10

Our key players are Best, Kearney, Murray and Sexton
Some say Stander - I don't agree
The first two would be a loss but not the end of the world.
The cover for Murray is decent and there are 3 of them - the problem here is Murray is so good.
Sexton is currently being covered by a talent young lad who doesn't play 10 - that is a big problem.
We have a player in the wings who has provided decent cover in the past. He has done it, Carbery has yet to do so from the start in big matches.

Having said all that, if my first paragraph is correct we could have a solution to the problem
A credible 10 simply has to play 10 week in week out, more so than any other position

SecretFly wrote:
If Schmidt didn't think Carbery was ready to deputise for Sexton then he'd be hovering around an alternative.

Must pick up on this though.

There is and was no alternative - Bryne, Keatley, Marsh.
Carbery got the gig by default

geoff999rugby wrote:
The cover for Murray is decent and there are 3 of them - the problem here is Murray is so good.
Sexton is currently being covered by a talent young lad who doesn't play 10 - that is a big problem.
We have a player in the wings who has provided decent cover in the past. He has done it, Carbery has yet to do so from the start in big matches.

Having said all that, if my first paragraph is correct we could have a solution to the problem
A credible 10 simply has to play 10 week in week out, more so than any other position

Carberry needs to be tested thoroughly in the next 18 months at 10, he needs to play on the front foot, back foot, he needs big backrowers breathing down his neck while he's trying to control a game. Coming on while things are going well isn't how he needs to be tested and playing 15 for Leinster when it isn't going well, isn't the same as being at 10 so he needs that challenge to see if he can do the job.

marty2086 wrote:Carberry needs to be tested thoroughly in the next 18 months at 10, he needs to play on the front foot, back foot, he needs big backrowers breathing down his neck while he's trying to control a game.

He would certainly get that at Ulster!

Is there any chance that might happen?

geoff999rugby wrote:

SecretFly wrote:  
If Schmidt didn't think Carbery was ready to deputise for Sexton then he'd be hovering around an alternative.

Must pick up on this though.

There is and was no alternative - Bryne, Keatley, Marsh.
Carbery got the gig by default

The team wanted a Slam.  They didn't admit to it during the tournament.  But listen to them all after it.  The Slam was what they were gunning for - all of them.  The rookies even more than the older guys maybe.  But it's certain Joe Schmidt was gunning for it too.  So he produced a squad that he knew had a good chance of getting it.  He believed he had a squad strong enough to go for it.  

He doesn't think Carbury is the one player in the unit that would need to be dragged through it by the rest should Sexton fall.  He expects Carbury to be the same cog as he expected Chris Farrell to be, as he expected Stockdale to be, as he expected Leavy to be, as he expected Ringrose to be. He sees these players in training.

You don't get an invitation to a side determined that they are going for a Slam from the start and expect to be carried through.  Schmidt trusts Carbery.  Carbery plays a different way perhaps but it's actually his way that is beginning to slowly but tentatively emerge in this once defiantly defensive team.

geoff999rugby wrote:

SecretFly wrote:  
If Schmidt didn't think Carbery was ready to deputise for Sexton then he'd be hovering around an alternative.

Must pick up on this though.

There is and was no alternative - Bryne, Keatley, Marsh.
Carbery got the gig by default

That's not completely accurate, Carbery got his first cap in Nov 16 when Jackson was still around. He has 9 caps now so has been in an out of the squad for a while now including starts on Summer tours. If Schmidt was really stuck he could have also called on Madigan.

Collapse2005 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

SecretFly wrote:  
If Schmidt didn't think Carbery was ready to deputise for Sexton then he'd be hovering around an alternative.

Must pick up on this though.

There is and was no alternative - Bryne, Keatley, Marsh.
Carbery got the gig by default

That's not completely accurate, Carbery got his first cap in Nov 16 when Jackson was still around. He has 9 caps now so has been in an out of the squad for a while now including starts on Summer tours. If Schmidt was really stuck he could have also called on Madigan.

Carberry got his first cap against NZ when Jackson wasn't allowed to travel to the US

Pot Hale wrote:

rodders wrote:Likely World cup squad

Fullback: Kearney,  Larmour
Wing: Stockdale, Earls, Conway
Centre: Aki, Ringrose, Henshaw
Fly half - Sexton, Carbury, Keatley
SH - Murray, Marmion, McGrath
Back row- Stander, O' Mahoney, O'Brien, Leavy
Lock - Henderson, Toner, Ryan, Beirne(?)
Prop - Furlong, Healy, Porter, McGrath, Ryan
Hooker: Best, Cronin, Herring

Possibles - Farrell, VDF, Dillane, Roux, Murphy, Ruddock, Conan, Scannell, Scannell, Payne, Dave Kearney.

Personally I don't see anyone outside this making it and expect to see a good few of these tour and get game time.

Agree with the point above that Deeghan is better than Conan but think the RWC is too soon for him.  Not sure Beirne has time to make it but the fact he covers lock and backrow will help, so will be interesting to see if he goes to Australia.

That’s 30 players, who’s your 31st, Rodders?  You’re short a midfielder.  Also it could be just 2 scrum-halves and 4 flankers and 1 No.8

Sorry, I think the 31st man would be Conan then.

I think they wouldn't risk 2 9's down in Japan.

Farrell might make it but think with Larmour and Carbury there midfield is well enough covered.

marty2086 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

SecretFly wrote:  
If Schmidt didn't think Carbery was ready to deputise for Sexton then he'd be hovering around an alternative.

Must pick up on this though.

There is and was no alternative - Bryne, Keatley, Marsh.
Carbery got the gig by default

That's not completely accurate, Carbery got his first cap in Nov 16 when Jackson was still around. He has 9 caps now so has been in an out of the squad for a while now including starts on Summer tours. If Schmidt was really stuck he could have also called on Madigan.

Carberry got his first cap against NZ when Jackson wasn't allowed to travel to the US

Fair enough but Keatley had already been capped at that stage so Id imagine that Carbery had already been primed for inclusion or he probably would not have been thrown in the deep end in a game where we were about to get our first win in 118 years. Unless Keatley was injured, in which case I decline to comment further.

Collapse2005 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

SecretFly wrote:  
If Schmidt didn't think Carbery was ready to deputise for Sexton then he'd be hovering around an alternative.

Must pick up on this though.

There is and was no alternative - Bryne, Keatley, Marsh.
Carbery got the gig by default

That's not completely accurate, Carbery got his first cap in Nov 16 when Jackson was still around. He has 9 caps now so has been in an out of the squad for a while now including starts on Summer tours. If Schmidt was really stuck he could have also called on Madigan.

Carberry got his first cap against NZ when Jackson wasn't allowed to travel to the US

Fair enough but Keatley had already been capped at that stage so Id imagine that Carbery had already been primed for inclusion or he probably would not have been thrown in the deep end in a game where we were about to get our first win in 118 years. Unless Keatley was injured, in which case I decline to comment further.

Think it was during the period when Keatley was going through the awful run of form and Blyendaal was the undisputed number 1

Collapse2005 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

SecretFly wrote:  
If Schmidt didn't think Carbery was ready to deputise for Sexton then he'd be hovering around an alternative.

Must pick up on this though.

There is and was no alternative - Bryne, Keatley, Marsh.
Carbery got the gig by default

That's not completely accurate, Carbery got his first cap in Nov 16 when Jackson was still around. He has 9 caps now so has been in an out of the squad for a while now including starts on Summer tours. If Schmidt was really stuck he could have also called on Madigan.

Schmidt was never going to break the play in Ireland rule for Madigan
You have to be someone very special for that - Schmidt has only selected Bowe and Sexton when playing away from Ireland.

Don't understand you logic re Carbery getting a cap in Nov16 - doesn't alter the fact Bryne, Keatley or Marsh are not viable alternatives (Bryne could develop into one though)
Also he may well have played Carbery a few times but up to the tour to Japan last year Jackson was still the number 2

Bowe was back in Ulster when Schmidt was appointed Ireland coach. Wasn't he?

I don't think there is a "rule" albeit that is generally how they operate alright.

My logic is I think that Schmidt was already priming Carbery for the job rather than selecting him because he had no choice even if its true that there were no better options.

My understanding of how Schmidt and his team operate is they have a very good idea of who their back ups are at all times and leave nothing to chance when it comes to injuries and succession. Less happy coincidence, more solid succession plans and processes.

Carbery either needs to move and play 10 or unseat Byrne.

We all know how it ends for players who don't have a position. If Byrne is deemed better by Leinster then a year or so he will be Ireland #2 or there will be a 10 at another province who is #2.

I think we need to send all but our lions down this summer. We know what they can do. We will learn more from the games and our tired players get time off before the important 18 months.

If we send our first team we don't learn anything about the other players. No Lions on the team we will learn quickly how they are under pressure and who are leaders.

Lose three games....lose the confidence of the younger players....lose confidence of those players in Schmidt's systems......... have an unsure side in Autumn having to start the process of confidence building all over again, against the best, New Zealand?

There's a big risk in just sending the pups, Brendan.  It's too late for a full experimental trip to Australia, I think.  We got ourselves into this position (being a very strong side now hunted by lots of teams under us).  We have to respect that role we're in.  We can rest certain big players through the series but I think we have to back up our supposed strong reputation now to keep everyone in the right mood - coaches and players.

Brendan wrote:Carbery either needs to move and play 10 or unseat Byrne.

We all know how it ends for players who don't have a position.  If Byrne is deemed better by Leinster then a year or so he will be Ireland #2 or there will be a 10 at another province who is #2.

I think we need to send all but our lions down this summer.  We know what they can do.  We will learn more from the games and our tired players get time off before the important 18 months.

If we send our first team we don't learn anything about the other players.  No Lions on the team we will learn quickly how they are under pressure and who are leaders.

So who would be in your 32-man touring squad, Brendan, if you're advocating leaving all of the Lions behind? And bearing in mind what Schmidt said last year: “We have a three-Test tour to Australia, and that’s not an opportunity to learn for young players. You’ve got to have a pretty strong squad to survive down there.”

3 Hookers
5 Props
4 Locks
5 Backrows
2-3 Scrum-halves
2-3 Out-halves
4 midfielders
5 Back-three

Does it have to be 32? Why not 40, 45. Bring the 6n squad and extras. Get them properly competing in training. The established lads showing why they get picked, but have the young guns learning from them and showing what they can offer that's different.
Let's have 45 guys chomping to be in the 23 each week. Let's make an army of well prepared Lazer focused machines, with the single minded goal of world cup and rank number 1.

Darn right, carpet.

These unwritten rules that seem never to be questioned and seemingly are never to be broken under pain of tortuous death.

So can anyone tell me if there IS a restriction on travelling squad numbers?  Now I know finance is one of them - nobody wants to get Woodward silly with numbers travelling but..... is there a designated number teams are held to?

It's like the idea of a kicking 10.  It seems it's a sacrosanct thing in Ireland.  The 10 must be the designated points kicker.  No other player can hold the role.  If the fabulously talented 10 can't kick points, then he loses his right to a career and some other ordinary 10 must take his place.

I've always found this restrictive thinking amusing but also annoying.  Nobody wants to break the mould.  

But I was listening to Off the Ball.  Andrew Dunne was on, a guy I'm increasingly liking for his very individualistic opinions - always just seems a little bit maverick in opinion when compared to other ex-players that seem to all sound the same in a way.
Anyway, he was talking about Carbery of all people (and this is not about Carbery!) - and he was questioning this idea that a 10 should kick.  He said that if a 10 is good enough at the rest of the game then a team of professional players should have the ability somewhere for one or two of them to have a good kicking boot.  And if they have a good kicking boot - use them to kick.  If they have a higher success percentage on average, then use them, even if they aren't a bloody 10.  
That was his exacerbated tone.  And I thought 'Yeah, I knew there was a reason I was beginning to really like this man'.

But sorry, I digress onto one of my real nuisance conventions

...back to the issue.  Just as carpet says, why not 45 if we felt like having 45?

SecretFly wrote:Darn right, carpet.

These unwritten rules that seem never to be questioned and seemingly are never to be broken under pain of tortuous death.

So can anyone tell me if there IS a restriction on travelling squad numbers?  Now I know finance is one of them - nobody wants to get Woodward silly with numbers travelling but..... is there a designated number teams are held to?

It's like the idea of a kicking 10.  It seems it's a sacrosanct thing in Ireland.  The 10 must be the designated points kicker.  No other player can hold the role.  If the fabulously talented 10 can't kick points, then he loses his right to a career and some other ordinary 10 must take his place.

I've always found this restrictive thinking amusing but also annoying.  Nobody wants to break the mould.  

But I was listening to Off the Ball.  Andrew Dunne was on, a guy I'm increasingly liking for his very individualistic opinions - always just seems a little bit maverick in opinion when compared to other ex-players that seem to all sound the same in a way.
Anyway, he was talking about Carbery of all people (and this is not about Carbery!) - and he was questioning this idea that a 10 should kick.  He said that if a 10 is good enough at the rest of the game then a team of professional players should have the ability somewhere for one or two of them to have a good kicking boot.  And if they have a good kicking boot - use them to kick.  If they have a higher success percentage on average, then use them, even if they aren't a bloody 10.  
That was his exacerbated tone.  And I thought 'Yeah, I knew there was a reason I was beginning to really like this man'.

But sorry, I digress onto one of my real nuisance conventions

...back to the issue.  Just as carpet says, why not 45 if we felt like having 45?

Cos yiz are ducking the issue. 32 is close to the manadated RWC squads of 31 so you get really real on tour with one addition for the experiments. Now stop faffing round and name yisser sqodz. No more prevarimication or prognostimication. Chisel your names on de slab and be done with it.

44?

Oh before I depart for a few months, I forgot the most important bit of the equation.

Lasting Image of the Six Nations:


Greg Feek proudly leading his brand new South African Emerald Back Bullmastiff onto the turf at Twickers.
Dangerous looking animal and I'm glad it had a secure looking harness on it.



Anyway, enjoy the middle of the year and your summer guys, whatever you do and wherever you may go.

If we take the lions how do we stop ourselves peaking to soon.

I'm not going to pretend I can name a squad. In most areas our second choice is almost as good as our first. Main issue is 9 & 10. We have three 9s behind Murray who can do a job but are never going to be as good as him. Marmion has done well and would go fine against Oz as would the other two. 10 is a different story as we really don't know who are our next two 10s. Is it Carbey and Byrne or is Keatley there.

I don't think Oz are as big a problem as they once were and I would expect us to win 2-1 If the Lions only played one game. Maybe we take 40 and play some mid week games. They need money we need to see who is and isn't up to standard. Playing our first team we win and everyone is happy. These young lads are better prepared and are ripping up trees in Europe so not exactly untried. Leaving Stander, Best, Henshaw and Henderson still allow us to have a strong team.

We remember how Sexton went at the start when ROG was on the bench and Sexton would get a wobble and ROG would come on and save the day. That would be Carbey in Oz. Look how Jackson grew in South Africa without Sexton.

I am just afraid we will peak to soon as often happens to teams ripping it up a year out. If Munster & Leinster do well in Europe when do they get their breaks right before November. I expect Leinster to get to two finals that's a lot of miles

If we played the 1/4 final at the last WC again missing the same players would we now win it and why. If the answer is we would then we can leave some players behind.

Well I didn't see the Leinster game but Munster apart who really dominated the Scarlets and were robbed off a 4 try bonus that was a dire set of results.

Ulster in particular were abysmal against Cardiff and I wouldn't see anyone really pushing for selection based on that.

Sam Arnold was impressive for Munster behind a solid front 5 performance.

O'Halloran scored a nice try for Connacht, straight from the Schmidt playbook.

Irish teams not going great this season. Munster have been very patchy in their performances, Connacht's squad needs a spring clearout and I if you made a film of Ulsters season people would say its a bit far fetched! Leinster were terrible against the Ospreys.

SecretFly wrote:Oh before I depart for a few months, I forgot the most important bit of the equation.

Lasting Image of the Six Nations:


Greg Feek proudly leading his brand new South African Emerald Back Bullmastiff onto the turf at Twickers.
Dangerous looking animal and I'm glad it had a secure looking harness on it.



Anyway, enjoy the middle of the year and your summer guys, whatever you do and wherever you may go.

Have a good summer, fly.

SecretFly wrote:Oh before I depart for a few months, I forgot the most important bit of the equation.

Lasting Image of the Six Nations:


Greg Feek proudly leading his brand new South African Emerald Back Bullmastiff onto the turf at Twickers.
Dangerous looking animal and I'm glad it had a secure looking harness on it.



Anyway, enjoy the middle of the year and your summer guys, whatever you do and wherever you may go.

"Greg Feek proudly leading his brand new South African Emerald Back Bullmastiff onto the turf at Twickers."

Pictures or it didn't happen!!!!!! Come on.....pics please.

rodders wrote:Likely World cup squad

Fullback: Kearney,  Larmour
Wing: Stockdale, Earls, Conway
Centre: Aki, Ringrose, Henshaw
Fly half - Sexton, Carbury, Keatley
SH - Murray, Marmion, McGrath
Back row- Stander, O' Mahoney, O'Brien, Leavy
Lock - Henderson, Toner, Ryan, Beirne(?)
Prop - Furlong, Healy, Porter, McGrath, Ryan
Hooker: Best, Cronin, Herring

Possibles - Farrell, VDF, Dillane, Roux, Murphy, Ruddock, Conan, Scannell, Scannell, Payne, Dave Kearney.

Personally I don't see anyone outside this making it and expect to see a good few of these tour and get game time.

Agree with the point above that Deeghan is better than Conan but think the RWC is too soon for him.  Not sure Beirne has time to make it but the fact he covers lock and backrow will help, so will be interesting to see if he goes to Australia.

There will have to be 6 props as none of them can cover both sides and it would be unfair to play Porter as a Loosehead at Test level when he is progressing so fast as a TH. If Healy or McGrath got injured in the pool games but there was a chance they would get back for the play-offs would Joe really want to be forced to send one home and fly in Kilcoyne or Cronin? Three players for each front row position is a prerequisite, especially now as it is a position of strength for Ireland. Having rotation options ensures the front row would be relatively fresh for each game and so would be able to exert pressure in that key area.

Three scrumhalves is also a prerequisite as it is such a pivotal position (literally) - all will have to train as part of the squad and know the plays. Murray might be managed and not over played so maybe should miss one of the pool games entirely, and this would keep the cover players up to speed.

Max Deegan is starting to step up now. 2 tries and motm at the weekend. Conan will be worried.


A bolter to consider is Calvin Nash. He looks real quality and not only has solid basics but is very threatening with the ball. Schmidt will be interested in him.

With Leinster's intensive end of season, will Joe be asking Leo to manage some of their key internationals so they are not burnt out before this tour?

English man in peace. What do you guys think would be a suitable return on your tour, 3-0 or are you allowing 2-1? You got to fancy a whitewash sorry green wash.

It has to be 3-0 for Ireland given the shocking state of Aussie rugby at present. Ireland’s 2-1 loss against the worst SA side in recent memory beggared belief. They must look to improve on their away form against SH sides. I think the Aussies will win though, with a few bits of luck and Aussie grit (sadly lacking recently).

Loved watching both Ollie and Ward back then, and a win over that oz side was a good one, Oz carrying on from the Cornelson test in 78 with a strong side in 79.

Cyril wrote:It has to be 3-0 for Ireland given the shocking state of Aussie rugby at present. Ireland’s 2-1 loss against the worst SA side in recent memory beggared belief. They must look to improve on their away form against SH sides. I think the Aussies will win though, with a few bits of luck and Aussie grit (sadly lacking recently).

Not sure it beggared belief given that SA still win most of their home games and it was an understrength Ireland squad. That said yes Ireland should have won the series. I'm sure England wont have all their own way on their tour this summer afterall SA's last home game was a one point loss to NZ.

Think it depends on what the squad is like. Full strength squad I expect a series win. Mostly full strength with fringe players getting serious game time, then a scraping a series win but not looking that good fine with me. Lots of front line players rested then decent performance with one win and new players showing their ability then not to bad.
Personally I think we will go with pretty much full strength and we should get a 2-1 series win. Would love 3-0 but can see the Ozzie's finding some form so will be a close one.
I'm
Cyril you and tighthead need to up your game. Your both getting far to predictable and have lost the sly humour. But I suppose losing 3 in a row has hit harder than I thought.

carpet baboon wrote:Think it depends on what the squad is like. Full strength squad I expect a series win. Mostly full strength with fringe players getting serious game time, then a scraping a series win but not looking that good fine with me. Lots of front line players rested then decent performance with one win and new players showing their ability then not to bad.
Personally I think we will go with pretty much full strength and we should get a 2-1 series win. Would love 3-0 but can see the Ozzie's finding some form so will be a close one.
I'm
Cyril you and tighthead need to up your game. Your both getting far to predictable and have lost the sly humour. But I suppose losing 3 in a row has hit harder than I thought.

I would go along with all of that with the one caveat that England's form hasn't been great over the last few games and SA aren't that bad at home particularly at altitude. England still do definitely have a better squad than SA though so it should be very interesting.

Collapse2005 wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Think it depends on what the squad is like. Full strength squad I expect a series win. Mostly full strength with fringe players getting serious game time, then a scraping a series win but not looking that good fine with me. Lots of front line players rested then decent performance with one win and new players showing their ability then not to bad.
Personally I think we will go with pretty much full strength and we should get a 2-1 series win. Would love 3-0 but can see the Ozzie's finding some form so will be a close one.
I'm
Cyril you and tighthead need to up your game. Your both getting far to predictable and have lost the sly humour. But I suppose losing 3 in a row has hit harder than I thought.

I would go along with all of that with the one caveat that England's form hasn't been great over the last few games and SA aren't that bad at home particularly at altitude. England still do definitely have a better squad than SA though so it should be very interesting.

Think you could see a very different Bok side under Rassie, in name and style. If they can pull in the best of their Super rugby and improve on that, theyll beat England easily, the altitude match already a likely loss for England. Trouble is theyre rarely able to do that.

Yeah Id say they will be better in time alright but I'm not expecting miracles for his first few games.

Collapse2005 wrote:Yeah Id say they will be better in time alright but I'm not expecting miracles for his first few games.

Interestingly, many new coaches have their best runs initially, and thats because the players buy in totally to the new deal, theres little room to doubt the coach at the start, and the coach will be at his most energetic, most convincing. A new beginning.

Both Meyer and Coetzee started their runs with home series wins over England and Ireland before they flatlined so thats ominous in itself. PDV started brilliantly before winding down to a crawl.

Schmidt and Gatland both won 6Ns first up, Jones as well. Cheika went well when he started proper in 2015 bar the losses he had after slotting in a week earlier. Henry and Hansen started winning immediately with the ABs, Henry after a terrible 2003.

Doesnt apply to everyone but more recently, new coaches tend to go well best at the start.

Depends on the style of coach, and the players he is starting with.
Gatland uncovered a new generation at Ireland, but succumbed to the pressure of bad results waiting for them to come good.
O'Sullivan took over those prospects, stuck with them and built clever systems. He didn't build any depth, so failed through injuries to his untouchables.
Kidney took over an experienced team that had clever systems and built a bit more injury cover and won the Slam. He expected his players to play an unstructured game, but then failed because Ireland simply doesn't have enough players capable of doing that.
Schmidt had a natural clear-out through retirements. He began by playing a simple ultra-structured game that was accessible to a wide number of players so he built depth at the same time. Over time he has refined that by increasing the complexity of the plays and developing the skills of a wider number of players.

The success of any coach depends on what he is working with.

When is the squad announced?

Maine man wrote:When is the squad announced?

Early next week possibly?

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Yeah Id say they will be better in time alright but I'm not expecting miracles for his first few games.

Interestingly, many new coaches have their best runs initially, and thats because the players buy in totally to the new deal, theres little room to doubt the coach at the start, and the coach will be at his most energetic, most convincing. A new beginning.

Both Meyer and Coetzee started their runs with home series wins over England and Ireland before they flatlined so thats ominous in itself. PDV started brilliantly before winding down to a crawl.

Schmidt and Gatland both won 6Ns first up, Jones as well. Cheika went well when he started proper in 2015 bar the losses he had after slotting in a week earlier. Henry and Hansen started winning immediately with the ABs, Henry after a terrible 2003.

Doesnt apply to everyone but more recently, new coaches tend to go well best at the start.

I take your point albeit Schmidt's Ireland were hammered in their first game which was v Australia.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Yeah Id say they will be better in time alright but I'm not expecting miracles for his first few games.

Interestingly, many new coaches have their best runs initially, and thats because the players buy in totally to the new deal, theres little room to doubt the coach at the start, and the coach will be at his most energetic, most convincing. A new beginning.

Both Meyer and Coetzee started their runs with home series wins over England and Ireland before they flatlined so thats ominous in itself. PDV started brilliantly before winding down to a crawl.

Schmidt and Gatland both won 6Ns first up, Jones as well. Cheika went well when he started proper in 2015 bar the losses he had after slotting in a week earlier. Henry and Hansen started winning immediately with the ABs, Henry after a terrible 2003.

Doesnt apply to everyone but more recently, new coaches tend to go well best at the start.

I take your point albeit Schmidt's Ireland were hammered in their first game which was v Australia.

That AI was about one thing only and that was beat Argentina and get 8th seed. It was nice to almost beat NZ and I am sure Joe used that pain to good use to help the players be better and to work on defence. If we had of won either of Aus or NZ I don't think we would be where we are now.

It was a really depressing game to be at.

Rumors starting that Henshaw, Sexton, Nacewa and McGrath are all doubtful for the semifinal against Munster with Henshaw possibly out for season.

Aki and Ringrose offers a bit more than Henshaw imo, with the likes of Scannell, Arnold, McCloskey and Marshall all itching for a chance we are well covered for the tour.

Unfortunate for Henshaw but the way he plays he's always going spend plenty of time on the recovery table.

McGrath wasn't great in the final, I'd like to see Cooney make the tour.

Revised guess at traveling squad based on limit of 32-34 players

3 Hookers: Best, Tracy, Herring
5 Props: Archer/Ryan, Furlong, Kilcoyne, Healy, Porter
5 Locks: Dillane, Toner, J Ryan, Roux, Beirne
5 B-Rows: Conan, Stander, Ruddock, Leavy, Murphy
3 S-Halves: Murray, Marmion, Cooney
2 O-Halves: Carbery, Sexton
4 Centres: Aki, Ringrose, Scannell, Arnold
5 B-Three: Earls, Stockdale, Larmour, Conway, Wootton/Gilroy.

Beirne's recent comments about Ireland using his location as a reason for not selecting him won't have gone down well with Schmidt.

He might find himself at home for the summer to brush up on his media skills....

rodders wrote:Beirne's recent comments about Ireland using his location as a reason for not selecting him won't have gone down well with Schmidt.

He might find himself at home for the summer to brush up on his media skills....

Yeah maybe the face doesn't fit.