Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

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Ulster Rugby

Final Table
               GP   Points
Leinster    21     70
Scarlets    21     70
Edinburgh 21     68
Ulster       21     62
Benetton   21     55
Dragons    21     20
Kings        21     11

Season Outcome: Playoff for Champions Cup Spot

Ulster are in the Champions Cup

George Carlin wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Morning Ulster brothers. What sort of team do you think that you'll put out for the Glasgow game?

And how will they be playing?

Difficult to say really, we know the team but as to how they play well that's anyone's guess, have played pretty well in the last couple of games and it is the last home game of the season with a few retirees so they should be up for it.
On the other hand who knows how many empty seats there are, i see that the ticket prices have been lowered this week and who knows if the one s that are there will voice their frustration with Logan etc.
One thing it certainly should be is interesting

So... Rob did the statement, and also starts this weekend. Did Rory really need resting? Or was he dumped to the bench as a 'watch yourself' message from the club after potentially refusing to make the players statement??

clivemcl wrote:So... Rob did the statement, and also starts this weekend. Did Rory really need resting? Or was he dumped to the bench as a 'watch yourself' message from the club after potentially refusing to make the players statement??

If anyone told gibbes who to play i think he would tell them to do one

No way Best is on the bench because of the non statement

Will be a feeling Herring needs the game and Best will give power to an otherwise poor bench

I am expecting a vociferous anti Logan protest today

Also the players think Logan is a useless waste of space and have no respect for him

This club will not start on an upward path till he has gone

I’d like to see this Geoff but I’m a little skeptical. The other forum seem to think they are representative of the whole supportership which they are not!

The URSC were all talk originally but then only a third of their membership voted for a protest.

A large majority of Kingspan attendees on any given weekend are not overly involved fans. Nearly every time I’m at the grounds I can hear voices around me asking who is who or getting things more wrong than Gusher.

I think real fans want Logan out. I just think real fans make up a lot less of the attendees and tv viewership than would be necessary to put pressure on Logan by way of boycotts/chants/protests.

Henderson out of the game. His wife gave birth last night.
Wish them all the best

Wow! They wasted no time!

Gibbs, all is forgiven. Such a shame you're not staying, just took too long to undo what Kiss had done to the lads.

So over the last few weeks we have had a team fighting for every inch of the field, backs that look like they want to do something other than go side to side all day, forward aggression in the ruck, players coming onto the ball at pace and maki g the hard yards, aggressive fast defence, and to top it all off something that resembles a coherent game plan.
Where in the name of frack has this been hiding all season? Was kiss that bad?

McPhillips gets better each game. Cooney is head and shoulders our player of the year. Timmoney is looking at home at this level. Didn't have much game time tonight but I liked that Curtis was happy to throw himself into rucks.

T Bowe put in a couple of big hits and showed his brain is still fast even if his legs have slowed.
Wee Paul did what he always does constantly looking to move the ball quick.
Both will be missed.

All in all after what we can all admit has been a pretty terrible season, to go into the last game playing well with even a sniff of top 3 gives me a tiny shining pin prick of hope for next year.

So, the IRFU are sending either Carberry or Ross Byrne to Ulster:

Peter O'Reilly Sunday Times wrote:Leinster are under increasing pressure from Joe Schmidt and the IRFU to provide Ulster with a replacement for the exiled Paddy Jackson, even though both candidates — Joey Carbery and Ross Byrne — are reluctant to move.

Schmidt and IRFU performance director David Nucifora visited Leinster’s training centre last Sunday morning to inform head coach Leo Cullen that he needed to make a choice between the two youngsters — who was staying and who was leaving. Moreover, he needed to make his choice promptly.

Also on Newstalk as well.

I was just reading about that and am not sure how to feel about that. As much as I'd be more than happy to see either player coming north I don't want someone at Ulster who'd rather not be there. As well as that we're becoming a Leinster 2ndXV a little too quickly.
Interesting times !!

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/joey-carbery-ross-byrne-ulster-387520

Pete330v2 wrote:I was just reading about that and am not sure how to feel about that. As much as I'd be more than happy to see either player coming north I don't want someone at Ulster who'd rather not be there.

I don't understand why either of them would not be happy to move to Ulster, both are well behind Sexton and if they want to put more pressure on him then by going to Ulster they would get more game time to prove their worth. Carbery would be the best choice to move to Ulster for himself and for Ireland as I think he would get given the 10 shirt and not being forced to play in other positions. I think it would do him the world of good and I also feel he fits Ulster's style more.

Pete330v2 wrote: As well as that we're becoming a Leinster 2ndXV a little too quickly.

In fairness, Leinster have a huge amount of players coming through so a large amount of players will move to other provinces.

I said this a few months back when Carbery was mooted, I'm not hugely in favour.

The problem isn't that Carbery won't add something to our squad, obviously he will. The issue is we're just kicking the can down the road. We're light at 10s who can play Pro14 level rugby now, and also potentially for the future. McPhillips has so far exceeded expectations but least we forget is fairly new to both the team and the Province. If he feels he's not getting game time or doesn't fancy his international chances he could well move away.

Medium term the likelihood of Carbery staying at Ulster is pretty close to nil. He's almost certain to rotate back to Leinster when Sexton retires IF he's successful for us. If he's not successful ...... well then that also doesn't help us does it?
We're effectively developing a Leinster youngster for them. That's quite different from O'Connor who I think was let go from their academy and Ulster have effectively managed his cronic hip issues. He's earned goodwill with us, and us with him. Timoney as well, we picked him when he was either let go, or going nowhere with their academy because of the flood of backrow talent they've got. There's a risk he might leave to go back, but that risk diminishes the longer time goes on. Him staying makes sense for both him and us. It's different for Carbery.

So while I get the logic from the IRFU, and in different circumstances I'd be grateful but I can see this being a stop gap for a player who really doesn't fancy playing here, all the while we'll have to thank our D4 masters for how kind they've been to poor Ulster.

A limited gametime, experienced 10 who can take the big matches while giving McPhillips home/easy matches makes way, way more sense from an Ulster perspective. We might lose a few more games than if Carbery did arrive, but we'll be in a much better place in 2-4 years time.

Yeah BBC are running with it. 1 year deal for whoever they send up. A 1 year deal makes even less sense for Ulster, as there's not even the pretence that they'll be staying.

Great move for Ireland thought, to see all the viable Sexton replacements with the prospect of 1st team rugby next year. Strategically I totally understand Nucifora's reasoning with Jackson now being persona non grata. Ireland need to think seriously about depth at 10.

It's just a shame that our long term interests and Ireland's don't necessarily align.

Does Ulster have an NIQ lined up but only after next year? A la Piutau?

That would be about the only reason we should take either Carberry or Byrne on such a short term deal, improving Leinsters long term assets and doing nothing to solve our own problems...

clivemcl wrote:Does Ulster have an NIQ lined up but only after next year? A la Piutau?

That would be about the only reason we should take either Carberry or Byrne on such a short term deal, improving Leinsters long term assets and doing nothing to solve our own problems...

Agreed. If we got the money for a world class loosehead or a monster backrower ...... then at least I could see an upside.

Beggars can't be choosers. The IRFU are cutting back Ulster funding because UR aren't producing players for the Test side. Carberry would be great as he not only is an exciting prospect, but Ulster have not developed McP fast enough. It would also give Cooney his best shot at the RWC.

Problem is though, how effective is it to have Carberry or Byrne here when they don't want to be. You aren't going to get the best out of a player like that, its not good for anyone

Do we have any evidence of funding being cut for Ulster? Certainly when Munster were struggling their funding wasn't cut. They got a bail out.

We have three NIQs on the books next season albeit VDM should be paid off. That leaves at least one NIQ spot and if they dont want us to have a ten then with the greatest respect dont expect us to develop another provinces. We will stick with our young guys who will benefit from the gametime and wont gain anything from working with guys who arent experienced enough at the position to offer guidance. Thanks but no thanks

In terms of our development of McPhillips then Carberry would be the better option than Byrne.

If Byrne comes he probably plays almost every game and so slowing McPhillips development.

If it's Carberry well Joe has been very clear that he is the number 2 to Sexton meaning he is going to be in every match day squad for Ireland meaning all those matches during the Autumn Internationals or 6 nations as well as any player management we have to do will see McPhillips start for Ulster.

If it is for one year so we can get an NIQ 10 next year that also makes sense, picking up a top level NIQ 10 in a world cup year is going to be nigh on impossible

It should be someone with experience. Thats the point. the two ways to learn are by doing or by learning from someone who has. Neither Carbery or Byrne fit the bill in that sense. If they dig their heels in then theres little the IRFU can do though that wouldnt risk losing them to a premiership contract or suchlike

Would either player be able to demand certain number of starts etc for this deal? Or the IRFU for that matter. We just about get to see Curtis. All because of the Jackdon fiasco.

What about the likes of Curtis or Lowry if it turns out we play mostly Carberry/Byrne with McPhillips/Cooney as backup?

Same could be said if we signed an NIQ10, but at least they might bring the young guys along more in training if they were older and of high standard.

If Joey doesn't want to move north then he won't. That would show everyone he isn't the player that Ulster and Ireland need. He could end up being another Kieran Lewis, who had a chance of moving to Munster and getting more exposure, but ended up staying as an understudy until it was too late.

There are arguments for both. the way i see it

Carbery - probably has a higher ceiling. Would be away with Ireland more so more chance to see backups which is good. More likely to bugger off back to Leinster
Byrne - Less likely to return if (still) viewed as being behind Carbery. Not as flashy but may not get the Ireland call ups which means less time for someone else.

My personal preference is that we look to within. We ballsed about all season and low and behold we started to look like a team when the Daltons, O'Tooles, McPhillips etc of the squad were used. McPhillips may not be the next Sexton but he has stood up and been counted and if we focus on giving him the necessary tools around him (reliable pack and service for a start) then we can see what he's capable of.

If IRFU are saying Carberry or Byrne, then who do Leinster decide if they have to do it?

Sexton is contracted until RWC 2019 at which point he’s 34.5. So maybe he runs with Leinster until end of 2019/20 season. So Leinster will want his replacement in place and their backup. Nacewa is unlikely to be renewed for 2018/19 season although there’s been no farewell party for him unless he’s been offered a coaching position. Rob Kearney is contracted until RWC 19 as well and will be 34 at end of 2019/20 season.

If Carbery goes to Ulster, then Larmour becomes the regular backup 15 during next season with Lowe, McFadden, Daly, Kearney, O’Loughlin, Byrne covering off the wing spots? Byrne, Marsh and Frawley cover 10.

I’d go with Carbery to Ulster for the season if that’s what duration is being discussed.

However, if Byrne went, I’d say there’s a greater chance of him deciding to renew and stay if it suited Ulster. And perhaps Leinster might get offered an NIQ back-up in 2019/20 to replace Sexton.

Standulstermen wrote:There are arguments for both. the way i see it

Carbery - probably has a higher ceiling. Would be away with Ireland more so more chance to see backups which is good. More likely to bugger off back to Leinster
Byrne - Less likely to return if (still) viewed as being behind Carbery. Not as flashy but may not get the Ireland call ups which means  less time for someone else.

My personal preference is that we look to within. We ballsed about all season and low and behold we started to look like a team when the Daltons, O'Tooles, McPhillips etc of the squad were  used. McPhillips may not be the next Sexton but he has stood up and been counted and if we focus on giving him the necessary tools around him (reliable pack and service for a start) then we can see what he's capable of.

Agree with pretty much all of that.

a) Sign experienced 10 to guide youngsters. Play 10-12 games max.
b) Don't sign anyone at 10
c) Carbery (better suited to our backline)
d) Byrne

For the record I think it's fairly telling that Cullen doesn't feel he can trust Carbery at 10 and Byrne is Sexton's backup. Byrne is a good player, and will make a solid Pro14/ECC 10, just not with Ulster long term. He's a 10 to manage a game, and we don't have a pack at the moment to manage.

Firstly great performance at the weekend against Glasgow. A pity we didn't see more of that this season, we might not be in the mess we were.

Re: Carbury/Byrne. I think it is great that the IRFU are pushing this.

I've said previously Byrne is the better fit but I've changed my view given it is just a 1 year deal. if you look at the style of played we are committed to then Carbury offers a lot more.

The fact that Carbury will be away in Ireland camps means there will be plenty of opportunity for McPhillips as well.

He also covers fullback, another position we look weak in next season although presumably the IRFU wouldn't be happy if he was used there from time to time.

In agreement with much of the above. Let's say we get Byrne/Carberry for a year. First of all, they don't want to be here in the first place, second of all they'd be straight back to Leinster at the first sniff of an opportunity and we are no better off in the long run.

What we need to do is focus on retaining McPhillips and bringing in someone with experience to steady the ship and mentor the young guys. McPhillips has his flaws but stepped up well when he was finally called upon. Curtis seems more of a 12 that could move across in a pinch. Lowry has bags of talent but his size will limit him at the top level.

Not sure where it came from, but seems to be chat on the the other forum that McPhillips may not even be staying with UR...
Not sure where that's come from or if there's any basis for it other than maybe not having penned a new contract yet.

We simply have to sign a 10 and injury and Ireland sessions means the youngsters will get plenty of game time

Clive no basis other than no contract - pure speculation ala Hall

See below

JmD wrote:
What we need to do is focus on retaining McPhillips and bringing in someone with experience to steady the ship and mentor the young guys.

Sorry but disagree. That approach failed to produce tight 5 forwards and a scrum half.

Players don't develop from mentoring, this is a myth, they develop from good coaching and getting game time.

What we need is a player who can start European games, whilst McPhillips and the others continue to get game time in the pro 14.

If we do sign an NIE, then to get anyone half decent means big wages and then a return on that by maximizing the minutes on the pitch and would actually hold back development of the local players.

Carbury will be significantly cheaper and more productive long term.

Signed till 2019

Best
Coetzee
Murphy
Cooney
Gilroy
Moore
AOC
Timoney
Deysel
Cave
Warwick
McCall
Shanahan
Browne
Ross
Trimble
McCloskey

Signed till 2020

Stockdale
Ludik
Andrew
Reidy
Addison

Signed till 2021

Herring
Henderson
Marshall
Treadwel

The other thing we must not forget is an IQ 10 frees up a NIQ spot for both a LH and a Lock - that would be a huge boost

So out of contract this summer

Lyttle
Kane
Herbst
Ah You
Simpson
Montgomery
Henry
Cairns
Owens
Busby

plus all the kids not mentioned, the better ones, like Rea, will be given a two contract
Lyttle and Kane are shoo ins so the only big decisions are Herbst and Ah You
Keep Herbst ditch Ah You I reckon

I may have missed an odd contract extension but the above post is pretty close to correct

Standulstermen wrote:Do we have any evidence of funding being cut for Ulster? Certainly when  Munster were struggling their funding wasn't cut. They got a bail out.

We have three NIQs on the books next season albeit VDM should be paid off. That leaves at least one NIQ spot and if they dont want us to have a ten then with the greatest respect dont expect us to develop another provinces. We will stick with our young guys who will benefit from the gametime and wont gain anything from working with guys who arent experienced enough at the position to offer guidance. Thanks but no thanks

VdMerwe is a project not NIQ and may well be paid off - on small money fortunately.
We are allowed 4 NIQ so 2 slots free
I ask a simple question of those saying develop McPhillips - gets injured in first game are you seriously suggesting we play a season with Lowry and Curtis
We simply must sign a 10, preferably IQ

Most 10s don't really develop until they are 24 or so - look at Sexton
McPhillips is just 21
Curtis is just 20
Lowry is 19

Putting too much pressure on them next year will be detrimental to their long term careers

Ah, more IRFU gerrymandering.

geoff999rugby wrote:The other thing we must not forget is an IQ 10 frees up a NIQ spot for both a LH and a Lock - that would be a huge boost

And also, NIQ spots then free up for possible NIQ10 after WC?

You've left out VDM from your list there Geoff. He finished 2019 too yea? Can't believe it's not financially viable to pay his contract off. He has brought a sum total of zero. Club must not have much money, or they must still think he has something to bring to the table...

geoff999rugby wrote:So out of contract this summer

Lyttle
Kane
Herbst
Ah You
Simpson
Montgomery
Henry
Cairns
Owens
Busby

plus all the kids not mentioned, the better ones, like Rea, will be given a two contract
Lyttle and Kane are shoo ins so the only big decisions are Herbst and Ah You
Keep Herbst ditch Ah You I reckon

I may have missed an odd contract extension but the above post is pretty close to correct

Kane and Lyttle got new contracts a year ago, were they only 1 year deals?

Thanks Clive vdMerwe is 2019

Marty typically youngsters do only get 1 year until they breakthrough.
They were added to the senior squad last summer so Id be pretty certain they were 1 year contracts.
Like Rea I can see Kane getting 2 years, Lyttle I think will be another 1 year contract

Lyttle should get lots of gametime next year and we should be really hoping he has a big season a la Stockdale.

Who will be our most regular 15 next season? Ludik?

Will Trimble make it back to being a regular first teamer after Bowe and Piutau's departure? Or might Lyttle step it up and fill that gap?

Is Busby rated well? Is he likely to feature?

Lyttle getting 1 year is understandable given how fragile he seems to be

Some claiming elsewhere that a total of 7 Leinster players could be heading north, including academy players

clivemcl wrote:Lyttle should get lots of gametime next year and we should be really hoping he has a big season a la Stockdale.

Who will be our most regular 15 next season? Ludik?

I'm surprised actually more people aren't discussing how weak we are in the back 3 next year.

Ludik for all his defensive heroics and bravery isn't much threat with the ball in hand. With Piatau, Bowe and possibly Trimble gone, Stockdale an Ireland regular we really could be doing with an experienced NIE in the back 3, another reason why taking an IE 10 makes sense.

Options in back 3 next year will be Stockdale, Gilroy, Ludik, Lyttle, Nelson and Addison can cover too

Bryn to meet with the IRFU to discuss fly half this week plus

It was reported by the Belfast Telegraph 10 days ago that Australia Sevens coach Andy Friend - fresh from the Commonwealth Games - was the front-runner for the vacant position and that is still believed to be the case.

"We are through that and heavy in negotiations at the moment," said Cunningham, unwilling to name names.

"We are making really good progress on that at the moment which is great.

"Again, probably similar to the 10 situations it is not straightforward, it's fairly complex.

"It is good seeing lots of names being bandied about which are wide of the mark, so that is making me very happy."

marty2086 wrote:Options in back 3 next year will be Stockdale, Gilroy, Ludik, Lyttle, Nelson and Addison can cover too

That is incredibly weak looking given how strong we've been there in recent years. Totally forgot about Payne but assuming he is a goner too.

Maybe Leinster will give us Dave Kearney too....

KOTH on t'other forum has heard the rumour about McPhillips returning to England, Worcester apparently. He heard this during the trial though so things may well have changed.

Pete330v2 wrote:KOTH on t'other forum has heard the rumour about McPhillips returning to England, Worcester apparently. He heard this during the trial though so things may well have changed.

Can't see it, Worcester have Weir coming in next season plus have Heathcote and their own young player coming through in Shillcock

Our first choice backthree will be Ludik, Gilroy, Stockdale

We will not sign any NIQ/E back three players - we will sign a LH and a 10 and if one of those is IQ it will be a Lock next.
Busby, Owens and Cairns are there to make the numbers up - none considered that special.
KOTH has got McPhillips wrong as, I suspect, he has got Friend and Hall wrong.
Then of course I could be wrong

rodders wrote:

JmD wrote:
What we need to do is focus on retaining McPhillips and bringing in someone with experience to steady the ship and mentor the young guys.

Sorry but disagree. That approach failed to produce tight 5 forwards and a scrum half.

Players don't develop from mentoring, this is a myth, they develop from good coaching and getting game time.

What we need is a player who can start European games, whilst McPhillips and the others continue to get game time in the pro 14.

If we do sign an NIE, then to get anyone half decent means big wages and then a return on that by maximizing the minutes on the pitch and would actually hold back development of the local players.

Carbury will be significantly cheaper and more productive long term.

Fair enough Rodders but the point stands that if Carberry doesn't want to move I'd rather he stayed put than come here and be a malcontent. There's no reason an NIQ couldn't play in the same vein, i.e. starting European games while still giving the younger guys a chance to cut their teeth in the Pro14. We're not talking about bringing in an international superstar here, just someone with experience.