England summer thread - 2018

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

First test squad is announced next week, and the rumour is Nick Gubbins will be selected to open, and this would be the prospective team...

Cook
Gubbins
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow
Livingstone
Woakes/Wood
Broad
Leach
Anderson

With James Vince as 12th man

What do we reckon?

[Gooseberry]

Moeens case for a recall:
RLC game against a really poor Leicestershire side
1 for 50 off 8 overs and a 3 ball duck (Ferguson came in next and scored 192 off 143 balls).

1 for 49 and 24 with the bat in the previous fixture.

IPL 3 wickets @ 32 , 77 runs @19 with the bat


Crane got smashed around in the latest RLC fixture against Kent, since his return in 4 fixtures hes taken 6 wickets @ 38 (batted once for 24 runs) ...so notably better than Moeen whilst hardly setting the world on fire.

Rashids taken 8 wickets @31 in the RLC plus another 6 @16 for the second XI since his self imposed break. Having failed to secure any T20 mercenary deals and now being the form England spinner (thats overlooking Virdis impressive start to the county season) he must be feeling like a prize turnip for the decision to retire. Had he played and bowled well in the early part of the county season he surely would have been in the frame for a recall when both Leach and Crane were injured.

Anyone know what the latest on Leach is? Obviously he wont play this series but any idea when he will be back in Somerset jumper?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Ben Stokes is a doubt for the all-important second Test against Pakistan at Headingley with a tight hamstring. Surrey's Sam Curran is on his way to Leeds and is on stand-by to make his debut in a Test England must win. More on @MailSport soon

When it rains it pours...

[jimbohammers]

Im a fan of Curran, think he's got good potential, but strange time to call him up. We've just failed miserably with the bat and we swap a batting all rounder for a bowling all rounder...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Im a fan of Curran, think he's got good potential, but strange time to call him up. We've just failed miserably with the bat and we swap a batting all rounder for a bowling all rounder...

Agree - this means they have to go Curran 7, Woakes 8, Bess 9 right? You can’t have Curran at 6, and I don’t think you can have him at 7 with Wood/Bess/Broad/Anderson behind him either

Albeit obviously Stokes may still play...

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Sam Curran is barely medium pace and quite frankly will probably end up a batsman who bowls within a few seasons. David Willey probably would've been more worthy but I assume he's not bothering with red ball cricket anymore either

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Sam Curran is barely medium pace and quite frankly will probably end up a batsman who bowls within a few seasons. David Willey probably would've been more worthy but I assume he's not bothering with red ball cricket anymore either

Spent a lot of time down to the Oval with your speed gun recently huh Nathaniel

[VTR]

So we could end up with Buttler at 6? Yes he scored a 50 last game but wouldn't back him to do it too often. Woakes must be at 7 in that scenario, he's a classy player on his day but this is starting to look like a 90s team, with the results to go with it

[Duty281]

Ben Stokes is a doubt for the all-important second Test against Pakistan at Headingley with a tight hamstring. Surrey's Sam Curran is on his way to Leeds and is on stand-by to make his debut in a Test England must win. More on @MailSport soon

When it rains it pours...

60-40 in Pakistan's favour with Stokes, shifts to about 80-20 without him.

[JDizzle]

Sam Curran is barely medium pace and quite frankly will probably end up a batsman who bowls within a few seasons. David Willey probably would've been more worthy but I assume he's not bothering with red ball cricket anymore either

Spent a lot of time down to the Oval with your speed gun recently huh Nathaniel

David Willey.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Sam Curran is barely medium pace and quite frankly will probably end up a batsman who bowls within a few seasons. David Willey probably would've been more worthy but I assume he's not bothering with red ball cricket anymore either

Spent a lot of time down to the Oval with your speed gun recently huh Nathaniel

Pop gun medium pacers are unfortunately ten a penny in the current county system. We've seen Tom Curran and Craig Overton get Test caps. Both are try hards but neither are Test standard. Sam Curran is of the same cloth. Woakes' first class record suggests he's a genuine all rounder, therefore if Stokes can't play, Woakes should logically some in at 6. IIRC Birmingham's finest has 10 or so hundreds. Pretty Damon impressive

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Sam Curran is barely medium pace and quite frankly will probably end up a batsman who bowls within a few seasons. David Willey probably would've been more worthy but I assume he's not bothering with red ball cricket anymore either

Spent a lot of time down to the Oval with your speed gun recently huh Nathaniel

David Willey.

Willey's record with bat and ball is essentially the same as Sam Curran's, aside from the fact Willey has scored a pair of centuries

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Sam Curran is barely medium pace and quite frankly will probably end up a batsman who bowls within a few seasons. David Willey probably would've been more worthy but I assume he's not bothering with red ball cricket anymore either

Spent a lot of time down to the Oval with your speed gun recently huh Nathaniel

David Willey.

Willey's record with bat and ball is essentially the same as Sam Curran's, aside from the fact Willey has scored a pair of centuries

Just casually ignore one is 29 and played most of his first class cricket in division 2, and one is 19 and played most of his first class cricket in division 1, then yes they are exactly the same cricketer

[guildfordbat]

Some speculation from George Dobell that Stokes might play solely as a batsman with Bess being left out whilst we play 4 seamers and the slow stuff comes from Root and Malan plus perhaps a bit of medium pace from Jennings.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Well, that sounds depressing. 

Although, saying that, all that matters is that Anderson and Broad bowl at those wooden things they are facing. If they bother to do that, we might be able to keep Pakistan down to a score that isn’t too intimidating to our batsmen. Something like 250, which we would get near on a good day

[JDizzle]

Sam Curran is barely medium pace and quite frankly will probably end up a batsman who bowls within a few seasons. David Willey probably would've been more worthy but I assume he's not bothering with red ball cricket anymore either

Spent a lot of time down to the Oval with your speed gun recently huh Nathaniel

David Willey.

Willey's record with bat and ball is essentially the same as Sam Curran's, aside from the fact Willey has scored a pair of centuries

Just casually ignore one is 29 and played most of his first class cricket in division 2, and one is 19 and played most of his first class cricket in division 1, then yes they are exactly the same cricketer

Congratulation to Nathaniel on being able to check Cricinfo. I don't think Sam Curran is ready for Test cricket, but I've not seen him play this year. What I do know is David Willey is cannon fodder to international batsmen and his 'batting' is mindless slogging with little to return against anything other than medium dobbers.

[Jetty]

Well, that sounds depressing. 

Although, saying that, all that matters is that Anderson and Broad bowl at those wooden things they are facing. If they bother to do that, we might be able to keep Pakistan down to a score that isn’t too intimidating to our batsmen. Something like 250, which we would get near on a good day

It would be good if the fielders could catch. Pakistan would be chasing 197.

Cook Jennings Root Malan Bairstow Buttler Woakes Curran Bess Broad Anderson
I like the idea of a left-arm bowler even if he is only 19.
10/91 in his last game. Pujara twice and Root.
Not keen on the Jennings pick.

[king_carlos]

Sam Curran is a hell of a talent but I'd hoped he'd be left alone by England until he develops another yard of pace. As a 19 year old he more than has time to do so - look at how late on Woakes gained that extra few MPH.

Sam will never be express but if he gains an extra yard it would give him the sharp bouncer which a swing bowler needs to push batsman back so they can pitch it up. He will never take batsmans heads off but he doesn't need to. With his left arm angle, low-skiddy trajectory a sharp and accurate bouncer would add hugely to his bowling.

That said I still think he is talented enough that he could pick up wickets at Headingley if the ball is swinging. If it doesn't swing then I fear some long days for the England team and I hope the young man doesn't become another Headingley 'horses-for-courses' scapegoat.

[Gooseberry]

Im a fan of Curran, think he's got good potential, but strange time to call him up. We've just failed miserably with the bat and we swap a batting all rounder for a bowling all rounder...

Agree - this means they have to go Curran 7, Woakes 8, Bess 9 right? You can’t have Curran at 6, and I don’t think you can have him at 7 with Wood/Bess/Broad/Anderson behind him either

Albeit obviously Stokes may still play...

Woakes bats ahead of Curran surely? Without going all Nathaniel on this Woakes clearly has the better batting record and has batted top 6 a fair bit at county level as well as being the senior player, and hasnt done much at all with the bat this year in any format. Its a bit much to ask of debutant who is not a genuine all rounder to pitch them in as straight Stokes replacement.
Either way you slice that though it puts England right back where they didnt want to be, with bowlers picked because they can bat trying to fill in for inadequaces in the top 6. And Buttler remains a barely credible test batsman.

That said I do think Curran fully deserves his call up and is defiantely one of the players England should be looking at for the long term. First off hes a left armer which gives England some desperately needed variety, and hes had an excellent season so far (for all county cricket stats are worth). Yes hes young and needs to add a bit more pace to be the bowler England really need but he really is doing everything to put himself forward whilst the other young candidates are injured. It make sa change from going back to Finn (or Willey) who consistently failed to deliver at test level.

If Stokes is fit to bat as someone mentioned above I see dropping Bess as a credible option. Hes really not ever going to be a test level wicket taking spinner, that was pretty evident. A well crafted 50 against the old ball and tired bowlers doesnt make him a genuine all rounder any more than it makes Buttler a genuine test batsman. Tbh I have my doubts over Stokes as a genuine test batsman too, but he does bring some energy, agression and belifto the side as well as being a good fielder. Hes clearly someone they want in the team no matter what.
If that does happen then theres two spots between Wood, Woakes and Curran which includes an option to shorten the tail.

[LondonTiger]

I honestly cannot believe anyone would be suggesting David Willey for the test team. After all we are talking about a bloke who:

1) For various reasons has not played any red ball cricket since April 2017
2) Rarely bowls his full 10 overs in ODIs as unless the ball is swinging batsmen find him relatively easy to hit.
3) Has minimal patience with the bat
4) Since February has played 3 IPL games and one RLC game (reduced to 24 overs)

[guildfordbat]

Sam Curran is a hell of a talent but I'd hoped he'd be left alone by England until he develops another yard of pace. As a 19 year old he more than has time to do so - look at how late on Woakes gained that extra few MPH.

Sam will never be express but if he gains an extra yard it would give him the sharp bouncer which a swing bowler needs to push batsman back so they can pitch it up. He will never take batsmans heads off but he doesn't need to. With his left arm angle, low-skiddy trajectory a sharp and accurate bouncer would add hugely to his bowling.

That said I still think he is talented enough that he could pick up wickets at Headingley if the ball is swinging. If it doesn't swing then I fear some long days for the England team and I hope the young man doesn't become another Headingley 'horses-for-courses' scapegoat.

As usual, Carlos is absolutely on the money.

There's a lot of talent with Sam Curran but not a huge amount of pace, certainly as regards the Test scene. His selection - if it happens - could still work at Headingley though. As Carlos highlights, ''his left arm angle, low-skiddy trajectory'' can be very effective. That was certainly the case earlier this month when he took a match tenfer against a Yorks line up including Root, Bairstow, Pujara and Lyth (remember him?). That undoubtedly impressed the England skipper - himself dismissed twice by the 19 year old as Jetty says and, if I recall correctly, in the same day.

Whilst that was a long way from being a fluke performance, the weather conditions were in his favour whilst for once the Oval track gave a fair balance between bat and ball rather than being its usual batsman's paradise. If Headingley provides similar, Curran could be in business. However, like Carlos and others, I do feel the call has been made too early. With him lacking pace together with the varied English weather and wickets, there isn't currently - even in the county game - the reliability so often shown by Test bowlers which cements their place at the top level. He struggled at times in 2017 to develop his promise and ended the season with 25 Championship wickets at 47 each. Whilst a slowish bouncer can sometimes work as a surprise weapon, it's something I feel he reverts to too often and certainly did last year with those disappointing and expensive results.

If he does play tomorrow, I hope the bouncer is something he severely rations. Otherwise, it could be meat and drink plus a real confidence builder to Pakistan's batsmen. Far better to stick to the snakelike low deliveries whipped in which win him a lot of lbw appeals [Duty - I'll start betting when I come across a poor bookmaker but you might do worse than looking at the odds on that form of dismissal.]

Surrey have confidence in his batting ability - he's definitely more skilled in that area than brother Tom - and seem to regard him a number 6 or 7. However, that's never properly come off (yet) and he's struggled for runs this season. His strokeplay can be elegant and forceful but he at times needs to rein that in. I wouldn't want him batting for the Test side any higher than 8 ... although needs must which is why he's been called up in the first place!

[LondonTiger]

That undoubtedly impressed the England skipper - himself dismissed twice by the 19 year old

Both on the same day I think.

I assume that Ed Smith makes the late call up decisions, but would be no surprise if Root had not at least mentioned Curran Jr.


When discussing his lack of pace - I have to say firstly that he looked pretty nippy last time I saw him bowl, and secondly there is not a lot of pace around in CC right now. After all at Chelmsford earlier both Foster and Bairstow were up to the wicket for their team's young opening bowlers (Cook, Porter & Coad).

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

That undoubtedly impressed the England skipper - himself dismissed twice by the 19 year old

Both on the same day I think.

I assume that Ed Smith makes the late call up decisions, but would be no surprise if Root had not at least mentioned Curran Jr.


When discussing his lack of pace - I have to say firstly that he looked pretty nippy last time I saw him bowl, and secondly there is not a lot of pace around in CC right now. After all at Chelmsford earlier both Foster and Bairstow were up to the wicket for their team's young opening bowlers (Cook, Porter & Coad).

I think Curran is around the 83-85mph mark, not express pace but not slow either - as he's only 19, still plenty of time for him to find that "extra yard" to get into the 87/88mph range

[Gooseberry]

I honestly cannot believe anyone would be suggesting David Willey for the test team. After all we are talking about a bloke who:

1) For various reasons has not played any red ball cricket since April 2017
2) Rarely bowls his full 10 overs in ODIs as unless the ball is swinging batsmen find him relatively easy to hit.
3) Has minimal patience with the bat
4) Since February has played 3 IPL games and one RLC game (reduced to 24 overs)

TBF I think it was more "Curran is just in the same bracket as Wiley" rather than he must get selected. A not fast paced left armer with county stats that flatter who can bat a bit but isnt a test 7.

Willey had his chance and blew it, not up to standard. Curran deserves his chance if nothing else because theres noone else to turn to left (but really on merit of performances in both formats this year), but its right to be sceptical as to whether he will be the long term overseas bowler England are looking for. Possibly a Broad/Anderson repalcement. But really England could do with focussing on winning the next game, and hes as good an option as they have.

[James100]

George Dobell on Twitter:

"Judging from the body language at training, not sure Stuart Broad is taking the new ball or perhaps even playing in this Test."

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

George Dobell on Twitter:

"Judging from the body language at training, not sure Stuart Broad is taking the new ball or perhaps even playing in this Test."

Hopefully it's the new ball thing, and they're giving it to Woakes...

If they drop him and keep Wood or Bess in the side, then I'm at a loss for words.

[Duty281]

George Dobell on Twitter:

"Judging from the body language at training, not sure Stuart Broad is taking the new ball or perhaps even playing in this Test."

Jonny Bairstow also suffering 'discomfort'.

England falling apart. With Ben Stokes not bowling or fielding in practice today, it would be a huge risk to include him in the side.

[guildfordbat]

...

Jonny Bairstow also suffering 'discomfort'.

England falling apart. With Ben Stokes not bowling or fielding in practice today, it would be a huge risk to include him in the side.

It would be an interesting ''what happens next'' if Bairstow drops out.

[wisden]

Buttler would keep, and i would then think maybe time for a Hildreth? I know he's getting on a bit, but he constantly churns out the runs and deserves a crack...everyone else has..

[guildfordbat]

Meanwhile, 55 not out off 70 balls for Hammed today as Lancs trounced Leics by 9 wickets in the RL50.

Only baby steps and against a poor opposition (so feeble that Goose would claim it doesn't count!) but still in the right direction. Good luck to him.

[Gooseberry]

Meanwhile, 55 not out off 70 balls for Hammed today as Lancs trounced Leics by 9 wickets in the RL50.

Only baby steps and against a poor opposition (so feeble that Goose would claim it doesn't count!) but still in the right direction. Good luck to him.

Given they shipped a record amount to lose last week yes runs against Leicestershire dont count.


As for Broad...this smacks of Dobbel desperately looking for something to say ; but its no secret that England have been looking at giving other players the new ball for some time. To drop him outright would be a hell of a thing though ...even more so with Stokes unlikely to bowl.

Bairstow would be a hell of a blow. Surely Foakes, Livingstone Burns and even someone like Westley would be up the pecking order to come in as batsmen if he did drop out though, Hildreths only been close to an England shirt in the eyes of a couple of people on here. Theres no indication Bayliss or Smith would be vaguely intersested in him ...even more so with their desire to give kids a go.

[James100]

Interesting article about Bairstow keeping and batting at 5

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2018/05/31/jonny-bairstow-batting-five-keeping-wicket-england-defies-logic/

My key takeaway -

"When he keeps and England bat first, he averages an outstanding 59.00 in the first innings. But when he keeps and England bowl first, he only averages 29.18 in the first innings.

As a batsman-keeper, Bairstow in his Test career has not been one player so much as two. The first is one of the best batsmen around; but, as soon as Bairstow keeps in a Test, he metamorphoses into just another mediocrity in England’s top six. Overall, Bairstow has 1,357 runs at 59 as a batsman-keeper before he has kept in the match, including all five of his Test centuries; but just 1,210 runs at 32.70 when he bats in games that he has already kept wicket in."

Suggests he could be an exceptional batsman without the gloves.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

News from the ground this morning is Bairstow passed a fitness test and is playing, no word on Stokes yet.

Few observers at the ground noting that Sam Curran is marking out run ups from both ends...a hint perhaps?

[Duty281]

Vaughan dropped a hint that Curran is playing today.

Presumably that means Stokes isn't fit to play, unless of course they've dropped Broad...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Reports are this is the XI

Cook
Jennings
Root
Malan
Bairstow
Buttler
Woakes
Curran
Bess
Broad
Anderson

For me that is clearly the correct XI, as it seems Stokes hasn't passed his fitness test

[guildfordbat]

Dobell (I've come round to him a lot more in the last year or so) suggesting a debut for Curran with Stokes unfit to play and Wood not selected.

[Duty281]

Yes, was just about to post that! Can't risk Stokes breaking down and leaving England with three seamers.

Pakistan strong favourites. But 10/3 still available. England's batting is just so weak.

[guildfordbat]

Reports are this is the XI

Cook
Jennings
Root
Malan
Bairstow
Buttler
Woakes
Curran
Bess
Broad
Anderson

For me that is clearly the correct XI, as it seems Stokes hasn't passed his fitness test

Agreed and in line with Dobell as per my other post above.

[KP_fan]

Eng's batting looks flaky
If it's a win the toss and bowl first pitch.....Eng should have left out spinner Bess for a specialist batsman

[guildfordbat]

It'll be interesting who shares the new ball with Anderson.

I'll stick with what's been proven to work well over the years and say Broad despite his apparently grumpy mood yesterday. However, it could be Woakes looking for movement or even Curran. The teenager has to be the outsider but not a rank one. He often takes the new ball at Surrey even though there are faster bowlers in the team (Meaker, Dunn).

[Duty281]

Whichever side wins the toss will probably want to field first, given England's batting woes. Root tried the confident, trust-in-the-batting approach last time, and it failed miserably.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Analysts at the ground suggesting its a clear bat first day and pitch - not a lot of grass, and looks like it'll turn as the game goes on

[Corporalhumblebucket]

Feeling nervous about selection of Curran.  In terms of batting he's a long way from international class at the moment. He is capable of an inspired bowling spell in the right conditions and he might just come off as a bowler - more likely on a one off occasion than as a regular, I would guess.

[Duty281]

Pakistan win the toss and bat first. England make the expected three changes.

[Gooseberry]

It feels like a very odd side and not at all what England have been trying to move toward, but if its not a seamers track I can understand them wanting to retain Bess in the side. Woakes coming in mitigates the loss of Stokes to some extent, but youve still ended up with keepers at 5 and 6 then 3 bowlers who can bat a bit 7-9.

The positives are it does allow them to rotate and not overwork the seamers and they have a left arm option.

The impetous really is on the top 6 to deliver runs, especially the 5 picked solelty to do this. Whether they are good enough or not is another question.

Duty ..its 100% a bat first pitch. Good conditions apparently. Sure England are flakey but its not going to be easier batting second.


6 debutants in the last 8 tests for England, plus a host of other changes. Never let it be said their arent opportunities for players.

[Gooseberry]

Feeling nervous about selection of Curran.  In terms of batting he's a long way from international class at the moment. He is capable of an inspired bowling spell in the right conditions and he might just come off as a bowler - more likely on a one off occasion than as a regular, I would guess.

Hes picked at 8 though, which is fine. Woakes at 7 is OK, Buttler at 6 though ...

But then Stokes was hardly a world class test bat either, his test average is still a shade under 35.

[Duty281]

Duty ..its 100% a bat first pitch. Good conditions apparently. Sure England are flakey but its not going to be easier batting second.

Indeed it is! Just seen the conditions and they're a lot better than originally expected.

[Duty281]

Buttler at 6 though ...

4 down and England will have a batsman with a first-class average in the low 30s coming to the crease...

[guildfordbat]

The inclusion of Woakes and Curran goes some way to mitigating the loss of Stokes' batting. That's allowed for by dropping Wood which is justified anyway on account of his ordinary bowling record. Predictably, Botham is bleating about the axing of his Durham man - ''he's done pretty well in the past''. No, he hasn't. 12 Tests, an average approaching 42 and a threefer his best return.

I gave my views about Curran yesterday. In essence, he needs to whip the ball in and keep it low.

Absolutely correct decision by Pakistan to bat first - but I would say that, wouldn't I?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

The inclusion of Woakes and Curran goes some way to mitigating the loss of Stokes' batting. That's allowed for by dropping Wood which is justified anyway on account of his ordinary bowling record. Predictably, Botham is bleating about the axing of his Durham man - ''he's done pretty well in the past''. No, he hasn't. 12 Tests, an average approaching 42 and a threefer his best return.

I gave my views about Curran yesterday. In essence, he needs to whip the ball in and keep it low.

Absolutely correct decision by Pakistan to bat first - but I would say that, wouldn't I?

Have to agree with your assessment on Wood Guildford - I don't know where this notion in the media has come from that he's done well in tests, he's been easily below par, and that's without taking into account his propensity to break down every couple of months. He may bowl quick, but he doesn't move the ball either in the air or off the seam, so test batsmen can play him easily. What makes the likes of Starc, Cummins, Rabada etc so great is they're touching 90mph but also doing something with the ball!

[Gooseberry]

As pointed out Stokes also has a first class average in the low 30s.

Personally I'm more concerned about Jennings and Malan plus Roots confidence at 3 and Bairstows pretty average form.

Overall with Woakes and Curran in (plus stoneman gone) I don't think England batting wise look any worse overall.

That's hardly a ringing endorsement though. And I find the inclusion of Buttler increasingly hard to justify other than from "fairness" and not wanting to chuck yet another debutant or hugely inexperienced bat in.

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