England Summer Tour - Part 2

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Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa 42 - England 39

16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action


Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

England

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)

Inside backs
Danny Cipriani (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks) * Piers Francis
Dan Robson (Wasps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens) *
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) Jason Woodward
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens) *
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)  
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps) *
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps) * Nathan Hughes
Mark Wilson (Newcastle)

Front row
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)





South Africa

Forwards (24):
Nizaam Carr (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Bismarck du Plessis (hooker, Montpellier, France, 79, 55 - 11t)
Dan du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 3, 0)
Jean-Luc du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 10, 10 - 2t)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (lock, DHL Stormers, 32, 20 - 4t)
Thomas du Toit (prop, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Jason Jenkins (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Steven Kitshoff (prop, DHL Stormers, 23, 5 - 1t)
Siya Kolisi (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 28, 20 - 4t)
Wilco Louw (prop, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Frans Malherbe (prop, DHL Stormers, 17, 0)
Bongi Mbonambi (hooker, DHL Stormers, 14, 5 - 1t)
Oupa Mohojé (loose forward, Toyota Cheetahs 18, 0)
Franco Mostert (lock, Emirates Lions, 18, 5 - 1t)
Tendai Mtawarira (prop, Cell C Sharks, 98, 10 - 2t)
Ox Nche (prop, Toyota Cheetahs, uncapped)
Sikhumbuzo Notshe (loose forward, DHL Stormers, uncapped)
Trevor Nyakane (prop, Vodacom Bulls, 37, 5 - 1t)
Marvin Orie (lock, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (hooker, Cell C Sharks 23, 5 - 1t)
Kwagga Smith (loose forward, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
RG Snyman (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Akker van der Merwe (hooker, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Duane Vermeulen (loose forward, Toulon, France, 39, 10 - 2t)

Backs (19):
Lukhanyo Am (centre, Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Curwin Bosch (utility back Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Damian de Allende (centre, DHL Stormers, 28, 15 - 3t)
Faf de Klerk (scrumhalf, Sale Sharks, England, 11, 0)
Robert du Preez (flyhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Aphiwe Dyantyi (wing, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
André Esterhuizen (centre, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Warrick Gelant (fullback, Vodacom Bulls, 2, 5 - 1t)
Travis Ismaiel (wing, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Elton Jantjies (flyhalf, Emirates Lions, 23, 203 - 2t, 38c, 39p)
Jesse Kriel (centre, Vodacom Bulls, 29, 40 - 8t)
Willie le Roux (fullback, Wasps, England, 41, 50 - 10t)
Makazole Mapimpi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Sibusiso Nkosi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Embrose Papier (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Handré Pollard (flyhalf, Vodacom Bulls, 26, 218 - 3t, 37c, 40p, 3d)
Frans Steyn (utility back, Montpellier, France, 56, 132 - 10t, 5c, 21p, 3d)
Ivan van Zyl (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Cameron Wright (scrumhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)[/b]

Barney McGrew did it wrote:England are losing the penalty count because they are losing the contact battle, which they're losing to more dominant opposition. It's a deliberate response to being outplayed, not because they're a bit dim. You can't drop the penalty count without first improving the quality of competition you offer.

I kind of agree with you about the impact of losing the battle of the contact areas - however I feel that the type of penalties we are giving away do nothing to improve matters. If anything it is the frustration of losing the contact battle. We do need to improve at the breakdown, but discipline can still be addressed imo

Agree to a point Barney but you must admit a lot of these penalties are from brainless play. Itoje goes for balls he's told not to, George has a 5min nap on the wrong side of the ruck, Itoje grabs the jumper in the air etc etc.....

Those penalty offences might be more understandable if we saw the players doing the same, while staying on the right side of the referee, and winning a turnover, or positively influencing play.

I didn't see that. I just saw players getting it consistently wrong.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Agree to a point Barney but you must admit a lot of these penalties are from brainless play. Itoje goes for balls he's told not to, George has a 5min nap on the wrong side of the ruck, Itoje grabs the jumper in the air etc etc.....

Weird he was being toted as Lions captain, distinct lack of brains from him at the moment, maybe the clapping powers the dynamo ?

Read a pretty interesting article in the telegraph about how south Africa knew we would blow up at altitude because we hadn't got our conditioning right. Either fly in as close to kick off or 10 days before. We did neither. Jamie George also said we got got it wrong and was blowing out of his ring. Why do we compound our mistakes with even bigger ones that should be worked out on advance from as supossedly professional out fit. We might as well put the chuckle brothers in charge and have a boozey tour challenging the saffas to a boat race afterwards (this should still happen Rugby is too serious sometimes). Mind you we would probably lose that as well someone would spill the beer and Maro and mako would attack the opponents.

Face palm stupidity.

1 game at altitude though, not sure if you can fully prepare for that to be honest.

For me the penalty issue is because they are not used to playing at the same pace and attacking breakdowns as much in the premiership - so desperation strikes as they are second to every breakdown / can't get to the 10 before he ships on the ball etc

This is an interesting read
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2018/jun/09/england-south-africa

A week at the high altitude would help a lot Sgt Pooly - having spent time at 10 000ft in bolivia after a week I was 90% adapted

TJ wrote:A week at the high altitude would help a lot Sgt Pooly - having spent time at 10 000ft in bolivia after a week I was 90% adapted

Ah ok TJ, I don't have much experience of this.....although I imagine you didn't play 80 mins of rugby against a hoard of rampaging Boks

Well, yes there might have been an element of brainlessness to the penalty count. But I feel that the better the opposition are than you, then the more pressure they put you under, and the more 'brainless' (aka desperate) you get. I would accept altitude as a reasonable contribution to the problem though - I guess only the players know if they're struggling because of the altitude rather than the pace of the game. Reminds me of test cricket where home advantage (climate and pitch prep) have a ridiculously large influence on the outcome.

Two weeks at altitude in Sierra Nevada and a week I was worse than when I arrived. (Apartment just over 8,000 ft, highest point 11,000). I guess different people aclimatise at different rates but took me the full 2 weeks.

People going on about altitude on here, but the two best players for South Africa play in England..... Just saying.

Also, we will find out if it was the altitude next week.

Brainless penalties were England's undoing on Saturday. I really thought England would wipe the floor with this lot, they are not the Boks of old. After 20mins I thought I would be proven right as well, but England just imploded.

Having said all that, despite losing, I think England were the better side on Saturday, in patches, but individuals let them down.

SA at home, at altitude....will always be a tough opposition.

Although I must admit I think we made them look much better than actually are for large parts of the game. I think this is a poor SA side and we'll see them dispatched in the 4N quite easily.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:SA at home, at altitude....will always be a tough opposition.

I agree, but the English based Saffas did not look unfit. In fact they seemed to thrive. Surely, the PLR would not have released those players early to be more "acclimatised" ?

To be fair, Youngs and Daly looked ok too (compared to Faf and WLR). It was more the pack that was exhausted.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:To be fair, Youngs and Daly looked ok too (compared to Faf and WLR). It was more the pack that was exhausted.

Yes this, I agree.

And I would suggest it is more to do with the style of play in the English game more than the altitude. Your forwards were desperate on Saturday. Vunipola has always had fitness issues, and he always gives stupid pens away, I noticed this when he was playing for the Lions. I think the game has moved on somewhat now to two years ago, and the Pro14 having two SA teams in it as helped the style of play for all involved in said competition and has helped them move on as well. It's freshened things up for us.

England are a little like an inside boxer who likes to grapple and cling onto an apponent and suffocate them and over power rather than duck and weave. Sorry, it's the best analogy I can come up with.

And also wide of the mark. It's been a good long while now since england have picked a pack to stick it up the jumper. Suffocating defence has been a hall mark. Bit that's speed and fitness ad much as anything else.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And also wide of the mark. It's been a good long while now since england have picked a pack to stick it up the jumper. Suffocating defence has been a hall mark. Bit that's speed and fitness ad much as anything else.

No it isn't wide of the mark at all, I said nothing about sticking the ball up your jumper. God, you do not alter do you ?

The England forwards thrive on big hits, and set piece, although the set piece is a very important part of the game, things have now evolved into a more open direct style, even the refs allow the scrums to disintegrate now as long as the ball is coming out of the back. Forwards these days, do not go looking for contact with the ball in hand, they like to throw it about a bit as well.

Think Scarlets, Leinster, Glasgow, Cheetahs, well, most Pro14 sides, they all play direct rugby. England were doing it for the first 20mins, but when the forwards started getting sluggish, the backs started to struggle as well. England even showed glimpses of it in the 2nd half, they just let themselves down, England should have never lost that game on Saturday, never in a million years. In reality they are much better than South Africa, this will be proven on Saturday, as I cannot see England being as weak in defence again.

For me, if England are to get anything out of Saturdays game, they either need to drop Farrell altogether, or play him at 10. He is not the 12 you all think he is. Also, if I were EJ, I would pick more forwards on the bench, because the English pack are not as fit as their counterparts.

Just seen the match again and curry was excellent for a teenager totally exceeded my expectations and I'm happy to say proved me wrong. He also was the only forward to leach on the ball carrier through contact and tackled well, Slade was better than I thought. Sinkler was worse than I thought and Spencer looked good when on too so that was a positive. Harry Williams was better for me and stopped their big men on the gain line. LCD would be no1 if he could throw. I don't think we should have a strop as there are signs of green shoots. We actually started playing better when down to 14 men which shows character.

'Think Scarlets, Leinster & Glasgow' Don't you mean Wales, Ireland & Scotland LD ??

I think you are right though if England cut out the technical infringements which gave S.A. free possession and territory then roles would be reversed and S.A. would be chasing the game.
I also think this so called modern game with endless phase play where attacking sides can seal off the ball at rucks but defences fan out means you need another playmaker at 12. - Aki, Allende, Dunbar, Parkes etc will only take you so far at test Ievel, I think.

Again you're wrong ld. England aren't set up purely for setpiece. They are much more an open play team. If you were going for setpiece you wouldn't have mako vunipola in the team. I assume you mean him when you talk of vunipola? If so you'd struggle to find a prop with a higher work rate. So yes you're wide of the mark. Again.

Jones initially set his England team up for mobile physicality. Lawes, Itoje, Haskell, Robshaw Mako, Billy all very physical and mobile. Hartley and Cole were included to help keep the set piece in place. The problem Jones now has is that Robshaw and Haskell have gone off the boil. Haskell looks like injuries has pretty done for his intensity and Robshaw looks about as mobile as Cole on 60 minutes. The pack has lost its bite and the backline has never really ticked, with the midfield lacking the 13 to bring balance.

It's not far off but we need to sort the pack. Farrell won't be dropped but Jones knows he's too limited at 10 for international level.

Hoping to see for the second test;

Mako, George, Williams
Launchbury, Itoje
Wilson, Billy V, Curry
Youngs, Ford
Farrell, Slade
May, Brown (he's not a winger), Daly

Subs; Genge, LCD, Sinckler, Hill, Shields, Robson, Lozowski, Solomona.

Lozowski offers an option at 13 as well plus on 50 mins that replacement front three should offer plenty of impact.

I doesn't matter who we play in the forwards or backs if the scrum half kicks the ball away all the time. Faf DK was in so many ways the difference between the sides, yes he played excellently but he also played to the strengths of those around him. England looked dangerous in the first 20 and the last 15 when the played with the ball. In the second 20 SA where on fire and England hardly got a look in but when we did win the ball, turn over or set piece, off it went box kicked right back again. I can't imagine how depressing it must be for the England forwards to tackle tackle tackle wave after wave of Bok runners, finally turn the ball over and then look up to see the ball being run back at them.

Many said we missed Youngs in the 6N because he would have given us better control through the boot. I no longer believe it. I just think our tactics are wrong. I would really like to see Robson in there running from the base with little pops to big ball carriers. If we need to exit, use the big boot of Daly, Brown or Slade and get the ball into touch around the half way mark. Nothing lifts a forward more after a tough defensive phase than a little jog forward to the next set piece.

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Hard to do more than clear the ball when you're camped in your own 22 for the second quarter of the game (I missed the second half, being on a family holiday I was pushing my luck when I found a nice little pub that "happened" to be showing the game). Turn the ball over in your 22, clear to halfway and then apply pressure is the favoured tactic by virtually every top ten side. Certainly Murray and Ireland wouldn't be throwing it about their 22.

Jones built the team on having an aggressive defence. Youngs box kicking should allow for us to apply pressure and we did. The problem was that if we didn't turn the ball over directly from the kick then the Boks would march us back metre by metre unless they knocked it on.

Just rewatched the highlights and you have to say the first two tries that change the momentum would easily have been stopped another day.

1st Ford is defending on the wing and is just bowled over in a front on tackle that does little, letting the SA player make crucial yards and offload.

2nd a Poopie bounce dodges Daly who's trying too hard to dive on a ball he could've just tapped in hindsight. Likewise bizarrely Young's who's neck and neck with the SA player gives up when he sees Daly there rather then keep working hard.

Interesting about Robshaw. Maybe he is injured? Maybe he's burnt out? Certainly doesn't sound like the Robshaw of old if he's struggling with the pace, his fitness was his biggest strength in the past.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Hard to do more than clear the ball when you're camped in your own 22 for the second quarter of the game...

France had the same problem against New Zealand before their yellow card. Unless the other side drops the ball further out, or concedes penaties, you end up reclaiming the ball near your tryline, and giving it back somewhere in your own half.

What do the ABs do in that situation?

yappysnap wrote:What do the ABs do in that situation?

Go for an interception, and score down the other end.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Jones initially set his England team up for mobile physicality. Lawes, Itoje, Haskell, Robshaw Mako, Billy all very physical and mobile. Hartley and Cole were included to help keep the set piece in place. The problem Jones now has is that Robshaw and Haskell have gone off the boil. Haskell looks like injuries has pretty done for his intensity and Robshaw looks about as mobile as Cole on 60 minutes. The pack has lost its bite and the backline has never really ticked, with the midfield lacking the 13 to bring balance.

It's not far off but we need to sort the pack. Farrell won't be dropped but Jones knows he's too limited at 10 for international level.

Hoping to see for the second test;

Mako, George, Williams
Launchbury, Itoje
Wilson, Billy V, Curry
Youngs, Ford
Farrell, Slade
May, Brown (he's not a winger), Daly

Subs; Genge, LCD, Sinckler, Hill, Shields, Robson, Lozowski, Solomona.

Lozowski offers an option at 13 as well plus on 50 mins that replacement front three should offer plenty of impact.

Hes less limited than Ford and can tackle. I'd say you need him to control the game and keep them pinned back. You don't need to win by scoring 5 tries, you just need a win at the moment.

munkian wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Jones initially set his England team up for mobile physicality. Lawes, Itoje, Haskell, Robshaw Mako, Billy all very physical and mobile. Hartley and Cole were included to help keep the set piece in place. The problem Jones now has is that Robshaw and Haskell have gone off the boil. Haskell looks like injuries has pretty done for his intensity and Robshaw looks about as mobile as Cole on 60 minutes. The pack has lost its bite and the backline has never really ticked, with the midfield lacking the 13 to bring balance.

It's not far off but we need to sort the pack. Farrell won't be dropped but Jones knows he's too limited at 10 for international level.

Hoping to see for the second test;

Mako, George, Williams
Launchbury, Itoje
Wilson, Billy V, Curry
Youngs, Ford
Farrell, Slade
May, Brown (he's not a winger), Daly

Subs; Genge, LCD, Sinckler, Hill, Shields, Robson, Lozowski, Solomona.

Lozowski offers an option at 13 as well plus on 50 mins that replacement front three should offer plenty of impact.

Hes less limited than Ford and can tackle. I'd say you need him to control the game and keep them pinned back. You don't need to win by scoring 5  tries, you just need a win at the moment.

Farrell is heavily reliant on having crash ball centres to use his short passing game from 10. England don't have any available. Also Ford had the better tackle stats in the last test. There's nothing stopping Farrell helping to control the game from 12, he is the captain. Personally I think the captaincy renders him a little toothless, he dials back the aggression too much. Better to give it to Ford or Youngs and let Farrell get in the face of the opposition, quite frankly we need someone to ruffle feathers (get Gengey in there as well).

Ford isn't captain material, should always be a forward - or at least a back that can tackle.

yappysnap wrote:Just rewatched the highlights and you have to say the first two tries that change the momentum would easily have been stopped another day.

1st Ford is defending on the wing and is just bowled over in a front on tackle that does little, letting the SA player make crucial yards and offload.

With Brown's help the tackle is completed and the player goes to ground with the ball. There is no offload. de Klerk then picks up the ball and goes through the hole left by Itoje. Admittedly the winger makes about 3 yards from when first contact is made on the 5m line, but biggest mistake is Itoje's eagerness.

2nd a Poopie bounce dodges Daly who's trying too hard to dive on a ball he could've just tapped in hindsight. Likewise bizarrely Young's who's neck and neck with the SA player gives up when he sees Daly there rather then keep working hard.

1) I do not think it was a bad bounce
2) Looks to me that Daly is trying to pick the ball up as his hands are facing up under the ball. Not sure why though - simply dropping on it would have been easy.
3) I assume you mean tap down on it rather than tap it out as that would have been a penalty try. Ball is in the air so just falling on it the safest option.
4) Had not noticed Youngs stopping hgis run before - does look odd.

Why do we look physically weaker than other teams?

I agree about the kicking aswell....kick kick kick kick.

Erm how about keep the ball in hand and go through phases.

Kicking all the time just gives the opposition the ball and piles the pressure straight back on you...especially when you have players like FAF and Willie playing with smiles on their faces!

And Shalk Brits coming in to the squad...retired yet still better than our hookers!

We shouldn't be kicking away turnover ball. Teams transitioning from attack to defence are the easiest to attack. We should be playing heads up and trying to move the ball away from the point of the turnover.

You're not looking to run in an 80m try from every turnover, but you can stress the defence. Just a 10m break would mean:

a) you're kicking from a stronger position on the pitch, if that's what you decide to do
b) the defence may scramble, which may present an opportunity to attack again
c) the break might suck players forward from the backfield, giving you more room to kick to. If they keep players back, then you can attack again against shortened numbers

If you are going to kick it away, your chase and defence need to be spot on, and ours just aren't at the moment.

Most of our kicking was from inside the 22m often rushed as forwards were not making themselves available to carry the ball forwards and allow a reset and kick from strength.

In general our response when we are on the back foot is to kick. That it keeps happening suggests it is the plan rather than players going off-plan, but the quality of the kicks (and chase) is often just not good enough. Of course with our discipline if we tried to go through the phases in our own 22 we would probably get penalised.

I just hope Itoje plays like he plays for Sarries, what is it with these players when they pull on the England shirt?

Team for 2nd test

1 Mako
2 George
3 Williams
4 Itoje
5 Launchbury
6 Wilson
7 Curry
8 Billy

9 Youngs (With instructions to Stop kicking the fecking thing!!)
10 Ford
11 Brown
12 Farrell
13 Slade
14 May
15 Daly (If we're trialling it...trial it, don't end after one game!)

16 Genge
17 LCD
18 Sinkler
19 Isiekwe
20 Shields
21 Spencer
22 Lozowski
23 Solomana

munkian wrote:Ford isn't captain material, should always be a forward - or at least a back that can tackle.

Smallest player in the midfield but made 8 tackles missed two compared to Farrell who made 7 missed 2 and Slade who made 5 but missed 2.

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=292953&league=289234

Has also captained club and country previously. I do prefer a forward as captain but we lack any option in that department, which is probably part of our overall problem.

Geordie, Brown was found out in defence for a lack of pace. We either need to adjust where he stands as a defending winger or change the winger. He was pretty good going forward.

TightHEAD wrote:I just hope Itoje plays like he plays for Sarries, what is it with these players when they pull on the England shirt?

Nathan Hughes is another. For all he should never have been rushed back from injury etc...I don't think he has EVER replicated his Wasps form in an England shirt.

[quote="formerly known as Sam"]

munkian wrote:

Geordie, Brown was found out in defence for a lack of pace. We either need to adjust where he stands as a defending winger or change the winger. He was pretty good going forward.

The problem then is that Solomona is woeful in defence on the wing, and Earle shouldn't even be there.

The Daly experiment must continue for the series...so its either

1.
With a FB on the wing...(Brown)

2. a wing who cant defend (Solomona)

3.
or a winger who isn't good enough for this level at all. (Earle)

Last I read, Launchbury is still doubtful for this weekend.

Then Isiekwe continues...or do you go for Hill?

Personally I thought Isiekwe was doing well, certainly seemed to be the one who was fastest to put pressure on after each ruck

formerly known as Sam wrote:

munkian wrote:Ford isn't captain material, should always be a forward - or at least a back that can tackle.

Smallest player in the midfield but made 8 tackles missed two compared to Farrell who made 7 missed 2 and Slade who made 5 but missed 2.

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=292953&league=289234

Has also captained club and country previously. I do prefer a forward as captain but we lack any option in that department, which is probably part of our overall problem.

Geordie, Brown was found out in defence for a lack of pace. We either need to adjust where he stands as a defending winger or change the winger. He was pretty good going forward.

He made tackles but rarely actually stopped anyone going forward.

We could a team of tacklers. Why would we we've only really been well.outplayed by ireland recently and even then it was when ford came on when there was a glimpse.

BamBam wrote:Personally I thought Isiekwe was doing well, certainly seemed to be the one who was fastest to put pressure on after each ruck

I thought Isiekwe was playing better than his more celebrated team mate certainly.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We could a team of tacklers. Why would we we've only really been well.outplayed by ireland recently and even then it was when ford came on when there was a glimpse.

Come again ?

We could play a team of tacklers even! We've gone down the route of balance to attack and it's worked well over jones tenure.