November tests general

First topic message reminder :


The list is below. Any predictions as to what might happen?
https://www.autumn-internationals.co.uk/2018/


WEEK 1
Saturday 3rd November 2018

-Japan v New Zealand
Ajinomoto Stadium, Tokyo
Kick off: 5:45am

-Wales v Scotland
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 2:45pm

-England v South Africa
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Ireland v Italy
Soldier Field, Chicago
Kick off: 8:00pm



WEEK 2
Saturday 10th November 2018

-Italy v Georgia
Stadio Artemio Franchi, Florence
Kick off: 2:00pm

-Scotland v Fiji
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick off: 2:30pm

-England v New Zealand
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Wales v Australia
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 5:20pm

-Ireland v Argentina
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Kick off: 6:30pm

-France v South Africa
Stade de France, Paris
Kick off: 7:45pm



WEEK 3
Saturday 17th November 2018

-Italy v Australia
Stadio Euganeo, Padua
Kick off: 2:00pm

-Wales v Tonga
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 2:30pm

-England v Japan
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Scotland v South Africa
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick off: 5:20pm

-Ireland v New Zealand
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Kick off: 7:00pm

-France v Argentina
Stade Pierre-Mauroy, Lille
Kick off: 7:45pm



WEEK 4
Saturday 24th November 2018

-Italy v New Zealand
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Kick off: 2:00pm

-Scotland v Argentina
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick off: 2:30pm

-England v Australia
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Wales v South Africa
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 5:20pm

-Ireland v USA
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Kick off: 6:30pm

-France v Fiji
Stade de France, Paris
Kick off: 7:45pm



WEEK 5
Saturday 1st December 2018

-Barbarians v Argentina
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 2:30pm

You do get that Wales pays in Euros or Pounds, whichever currency is multiple times stronger than the South African Rand?

You responded to a point about shields biltong. Perhaps in future just make your point completely separate to that and it may help avoid being asked questions you keep avoiding anyway.

The Oracle wrote: and probably Ireland but they don’t tend to go for our players

We don't pick your guys because we think they might be secret members of the PhillBB AntiIRFU Freedom Front (PAFF) ready to sabotage our efforts every step of the way.

If you put Phil in jail, we might reconsider.....

I am not avoiding anything, I don't see how you could possibly relate any of my comments to Shirlds, unless of course it is that time of night where the site is slowing down and you want conversation

SecretFly wrote:

The Oracle wrote: and probably Ireland but they don’t tend to go for our players

We don't pick your guys because we think they might be secret members of the PhillBB AntiIRFU Freedom Front (PAFF) ready to sabotage our efforts every step of the way.

If you put Phil in jail, we might reconsider.....

You don’t put Phil in jail. Phil IS jail!

The Oracle wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

The Oracle wrote: and probably Ireland but they don’t tend to go for our players

We don't pick your guys because we think they might be secret members of the PhillBB AntiIRFU Freedom Front (PAFF) ready to sabotage our efforts every step of the way.

If you put Phil in jail, we might reconsider.....

You don’t put Phil in jail. Phil IS jail!

In all seriousness, I don't know why we don't try more Welsh guys.  I wonder would many of them seriously come though?  The closeness of the rivalry...that grrrrr factor might stall the traffic.
Even more seriously, I've been wondering, often openly, why we don't look to France for players that might be getting pushed out of contention by ...................hmmmmm, foreign lads from south of the equator kinda thing... ?  
Some of them must be looking for teams to shine in and would come over if the scanners were out for them.  I think the lack of French players playing in the Pro14 is quite telling and probably says more about the Pro14 teams than it does any presumed unwillingness of French players to come over.

Ok. I accept your reply quoting my point about shields had nothing to do with shields and accept that you don't want to answer the question as to whether you find it morally reprehensible for shields to be picked for England. We'll draw a line under it.

Ok, inform me.

How did it come about that Shields got selected for England?

Was he approached by the RFU and told "Hey Brad, did you know you qualify for England under the parentage rule?"

Has he played any rugby in the UK prior to his selection for England?

If so how long?

SecretFly wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

The Oracle wrote: and probably Ireland but they don’t tend to go for our players

We don't pick your guys because we think they might be secret members of the PhillBB AntiIRFU Freedom Front (PAFF) ready to sabotage our efforts every step of the way.

If you put Phil in jail, we might reconsider.....

You don’t put Phil in jail. Phil IS jail!

In all seriousness, I don't know why we don't try more Welsh guys.  I wonder would many of them seriously come though?  The closeness of the rivalry...that grrrrr factor might stall the traffic.
Even more seriously, I've been wondering, often openly, why we don't look to France for players that might be getting pushed out of contention by ...................hmmmmm, foreign lads from south of the equator kinda thing... ?  
Some of them must be looking for teams to shine in and would come over if the scanners were out for them.  I think the lack of French players playing in the Pro14 is quite telling and probably says more about the Pro14 teams than it does any presumed unwillingness of French players to come over.

I assumed the French didn’t come to the UK and Ireland because a) be don’t pay as much as in France and b) the weather is cack. But going the other way.......! I’d be all over it!

Similarly, we haven’t had many Irish players come this way. Bowe a while back. Beirne at the Scarlets. That’s about it! Always thought the tax break thing was part of it. Plus we can’t offer improved salaries probably, and again the ‘lifestyle’ in Wales ain’t exactly an upgrade on Ireland

Biltong wrote:You do get that Wales pays in Euros or Pounds, whichever currency is multiple times stronger than the South African Rand?

Apologies. You were talking about GDP, and Wales’ GDP is much lower than South Africa’s.

No. Told you under 2 previous threads one of which you shut down the the rfu don't have anything to do with clubs selection policies. In England it's up to clubs what they do. Found that snyman tackle for you ad well as requested. 66 min.
Amd no to the 2nd part he had not played for wasps when he was capped.

The Oracle wrote:

I assumed the French didn’t come to the UK and Ireland because a) be don’t pay as much as in France and b) the weather is cack. But going the other way.......! I’d be all over it!

Similarly, we haven’t had many Irish players come this way. Bowe a while back. Beirne at the Scarlets. That’s about it! Always thought the tax break thing was part of it. Plus we can’t offer improved salaries probably, and again the ‘lifestyle’ in Wales ain’t exactly an upgrade on Ireland

Not talking about big earning French stars.... they got their gig.  

But just like New Zealand and SA, there must be a bunch of players there who feel 'unloved' and who probably feel they'll be crowded out of the market before proving their individual worth to one of the top sides in France.  I'm not talking about a flood of players but two or three that maybe are prepared to sacrifice a little money - but not all that much if they're way down the initial pecking order - to make a name for themselves in some top Pro14 sides.  Top of the Pro14 is still a better marketing window than the bottom of Top14.

And on the Irish players going to Wales.  Well, we're actively protectionist here, ain't we.  We don't like them going anywhere.  They even have minders guarding toilet windows when they need to go.....

No 7&1/2 wrote:No. Told you under 2 previous threads one of which you shut down the the rfu don't  have anything to do with clubs selection policies. In England it's up to clubs what they do. Found that snyman tackle for you ad well as requested. 66 min.
Amd no to the 2nd part he had not played for wasps when he was capped.

Not sure that’s entirely true, 7.5. I think in the case of Shields he was first approached by the RFU rather than a club, wasn’t he? Not sure he was actually on any of the clubs’ radars. Similarly, Burgess was an RFU move.

The Oracle wrote:

Biltong wrote:You do get that Wales pays in Euros or Pounds, whichever currency is multiple times stronger than the South African Rand?

Apologies. You were talking about GDP, and Wales’ GDP is much lower than South Africa’s.

Yeah, can see this is going to be a long night.

Gross domestic product for a country gets divided by the population that provides you with a GDP per capita.

Per capita means person.

There is also a thing they call purchase power parity, an attempt to equalise or relate the actual comparitive spending power on an equal understandable basis.

For South Africa the gdp per capita is $13 500 for the UK can't find Wales' GDP $44 000

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:No. Told you under 2 previous threads one of which you shut down the the rfu don't  have anything to do with clubs selection policies. In England it's up to clubs what they do. Found that snyman tackle for you ad well as requested. 66 min.
Amd no to the 2nd part he had not played for wasps when he was capped.

Not sure that’s entirely true, 7.5. I think in the case of Shields he was first approached by the RFU rather than a club, wasn’t he? Not sure he was actually on any of the clubs’ radars. Similarly, Burgess was an RFU move.

Yeah, if not approached how did this happen?

Nope. Neither down to the rfu oracle. Have you seen the general relationship between the prl clubs and union. They really don't take well to being told what to do!

Wasps went to him/his agent.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wasps went to him/his agent.

And the rfu jumped on him before he even played for Wasps?

Really?

Yup.

Well then, based on that non disclosure I refrain from entering judgement or opinion.

Non disclosure of what?

You have given me no concrete evidence, yet you want an opinion?

Burgess was definitely RFU driven. I remember the story coming out and then how long it took afterwards to ‘place’ him with one of the clubs.

The Oracle wrote:Burgess was definitely RFU driven. I remember the story coming out and then how long it took afterwards to ‘place’ him with one of the clubs.

Surely you are mistaken, we have been informed the RFU is innocent of any recruiting.

Pretty sure the RFU were involved in recruiting the Englishman Burgess.

What concrete evidence? Why would I have to provide anything for you to state your opinion ? Like I said I acknowledged you didn't want to answer.

The rfu don't recruit for the club's biltong. Did sa recruit mtawarira gor the sharks? Is his where you're getting mixed up?

I have no problem answering, but surely you don't expect me to provide an honest opinion with scant information?

Yeah. Didn't think you'd answer.

You provide information, I'll answer, you continue your denial England does nothing of the sort, we have no resolution to the situation

Anyway, its been fun hashing out absolutely nothing with you, time to rest.

Will waste more time with you tomorrow

By england do you mean the rfu? If so you know he answer. Honestly thought you of all people would answer a straight question but as before let's draw a line under it before this thread is closed as well eh?

Like I said, I will waste more time with you tomorrow, going to bed now.

Biltong wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Biltong wrote:You do get that Wales pays in Euros or Pounds, whichever currency is multiple times stronger than the South African Rand?

Apologies. You were talking about GDP, and Wales’ GDP is much lower than South Africa’s.

Yeah, can see this is going to be a long night.

Gross domestic product for a country gets divided by the population that provides you with a GDP per capita.

Per capita means person.

There is also a thing they call purchase power parity, an attempt to equalise or relate the actual comparitive spending power on an equal understandable basis.

For South Africa the gdp per capita is $13 500 for the UK can't find Wales' GDP $44 000

Sorry Biltong, I’m not ignoring your post. Just can’t find comparable stats. I’m sure you’re right, just can’t find the per capita for Wales (I know what the terms mean, by the way. No need for the ‘long night’ comments ) . Seems it’s tricky unpicking Wales’ figures/contribution from the UK figures, but seems Wales GDP is about 3.4% of the UK total. Not sure on per capita. Can’t seem to find it.

The Oracle wrote:

Biltong wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Biltong wrote:You do get that Wales pays in Euros or Pounds, whichever currency is multiple times stronger than the South African Rand?

Apologies. You were talking about GDP, and Wales’ GDP is much lower than South Africa’s.

Yeah, can see this is going to be a long night.

Gross domestic product for a country gets divided by the population that provides you with a GDP per capita.

Per capita means person.

There is also a thing they call purchase power parity, an attempt to equalise or relate the actual comparitive spending power on an equal understandable basis.

For South Africa the gdp per capita is $13 500 for the UK can't find Wales' GDP $44 000

Sorry Biltong, I’m not ignoring your post. Just can’t find comparable stats. I’m sure you’re right, just can’t find the per capita for Wales (I know what the terms mean, by the way. No need for the ‘long night’ comments  ) . Seems it’s tricky unpicking Wales’ figures/contribution from the UK figures, but seems Wales GDP is about 3.4% of the UK total. Not sure on per capita. Can’t seem to find it.

Wales GDP per capita was £19k (2015) - about $24k.

Without detail on numbers of who goes where, its kind of difficult to discuss this in any detail.   Trying to defend that the entirety of the NH is stealing all the talent from the SH is a waste of time - everyone knows the direction of player flow.   There are not enough paying or playing opportunities in the SH unions to keep all their players.   And it happens for different reasons in each of the countries.  

I’d take a wild stab and say that the spread of SH-born players - incl Samoa, Fiji and Tonga - is France 62.3%, Japan 13.2%, England 14.1%  - that’s where the money and team numbers are - and the rest about 2.6% each across Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy.  A rough estimate. I’m sure someone else can provide more accurate numbers. The numbers of SH-born players has been dropping in the PRO14 in the last few years.

Union/club talent scouts, the growing power of agents and global agents such as Esportif, coaches, and even players themselves play a role in moving from one country to another.   One Kiwi player now playing in Scotland said he put together a You Tube clip of himself and sent it to prospective coaches looking for an opportunity.   Another Australian test player contacted an Irish province directly to offer his services because he knew his contract in France would not be renewed due to new FFR restrictions.

T-man referred to the Irish “Exiles programme which is scouring the globe for players who might qualify for Ireland”.   The Exiles is the fifth branch of the IRFU created over 50 years ago to monitor and develop Irish qualified players in the UK - mainly in England.

The IQ Rugby programme was set up last year to track “already-qualified” Irish players and coaches.   It has not identified a single player in the SH to date.   All the players have come from clubs in England and France - some Irish-born, others with parents or grandparents.  

In my uneducated view, it’s about what’s going to happen in the future that’s probably more important rather than quibbling about the past.   The senior NZRU guy in charge of contract negotiation,  Chris Lendrum, said that the trend is moving even more towards Japan as the likely and preferred destination for senior AB players - a number of them on sabbaticals (earn more money).   The new SANZAAR TV deal will create fresh flows of income for the unions involved and with SARU planning to cut its professional contract player roster by 50% and a hoped for increase in its income with 8 teams playing north and south, plus a Lions tour in 2021, they may hang on to more of their players.   Rugby Australia remains in administrative turmoil.

Ireland, Italy and Scotland are continuing to invest heavily in their domestic pathways.  As are the Welsh, albeit Scarlets under their new coach next season have set themselves a target of winning the European Cup in the next few seasons, and with increased funding they plan to recruit more players in the coming seasons - they didn’t specify from where but presumably will have to stay within foreign player limits.  

The November tests should be fun to watch.

Pot Hale wrote:Without detail on numbers of who goes where, its kind of difficult to discuss this in any detail.   Trying to defend that the entirety of the NH is stealing all the talent from the SH is a waste of time - everyone knows the direction of player flow.   There are not enough paying or playing opportunities in the SH unions to keep all their players.   And it happens for different reasons in each of the countries.  

I’d take a wild stab and say that the spread of SH-born players - incl Samoa, Fiji and Tonga - is France 62.3%, Japan 13.2%, England 14.1%  - that’s where the money and team numbers are - and the rest about 2.6% each across Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy.  A rough estimate. I’m sure someone else can provide more accurate numbers. The numbers of SH-born players has been dropping in the PRO14 in the last few years.

Union/club talent scouts, the growing power of agents and global agents such as Esportif, coaches, and even players themselves play a role in moving from one country to another.   One Kiwi player now playing in Scotland said he put together a You Tube clip of himself and sent it to prospective coaches looking for an opportunity.   Another Australian test player contacted an Irish province directly to offer his services because he knew his contract in France would not be renewed due to new FFR restrictions.

T-man referred to the Irish “Exiles programme which is scouring the globe for players who might qualify for Ireland”.   The Exiles is the fifth branch of the IRFU created over 50 years ago to monitor and develop Irish qualified players in the UK - mainly in England.

The IQ Rugby programme was set up last year to track “already-qualified” Irish players and coaches.   It has not identified a single player in the SH to date.   All the players have come from clubs in England and France - some Irish-born, others with parents or grandparents.  

In my uneducated view, it’s about what’s going to happen in the future that’s probably more important rather than quibbling about the past.   The senior NZRU guy in charge of contract negotiation,  Chris Lendrum, said that the trend is moving even more towards Japan as the likely and preferred destination for senior AB players - a number of them on sabbaticals (earn more money).   The new SANZAAR TV deal will create fresh flows of income for the unions involved and with SARU planning to cut its professional contract player roster by 50% and a hoped for increase in its income with 8 teams playing north and south, plus a Lions tour in 2021, they may hang on to more of their players.   Rugby Australia remains in administrative turmoil.

Ireland, Italy and Scotland are continuing to invest heavily in their domestic pathways.  As are the Welsh, albeit Scarlets under their new coach next season have set themselves a target of winning the European Cup in the next few seasons, and with increased funding they plan to recruit more players in the coming seasons - they didn’t specify from where but presumably will have to stay within foreign player limits.  

The November tests should be fun to watch.

Thanks Poth. Yes Japan is where Barrett is looking after the WCup. At least its closer but its not a comp we could be bothered with, I mean who cares who wins the local Japanese league?

Larmour has gone and done it now....

“No one is scared of them, no one is afraid of them.  They are a quality team. So are we. We just need to turn up on the day and we can turn them over.”


He may have said other things as well, but it’s the sound bite that counts.

Pot Hale wrote:Larmour has gone and done it now....

“No one is scared of them, no one is afraid of them.  They are a quality team. So are we. We just need to turn up on the day and we can turn them over.”


He may have said other things as well, but it’s the sound bite that counts.  

ha ha, youth huh, give three tries and take a...

Good on him...(isnt that what OGara said before his 12 tests?

Taylorman wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Larmour has gone and done it now....

“No one is scared of them, no one is afraid of them.  They are a quality team. So are we. We just need to turn up on the day and we can turn them over.”


He may have said other things as well, but it’s the sound bite that counts.  

ha ha, youth huh, give three tries and take a...

Good on him...(isnt that what OGara said before his 12 tests?

Good on him alright, never knew Irish players were so brash

I know it doesn't sound feasible that the RFU aren't involved in these things, but this is the case.

The clubs pay the wages, not the RFU. The RFU can't tell a club to buy a player as it's a privately owned entity.

Biltong wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wasps went to him/his agent.

And the rfu jumped on him before he even played for Wasps?

Really?

With Shields, RFU was never involved. Wasps signed him off their own recruitment plans, the fact that he was already EQP made him more valuable.

Having signed him, Eddie then was able to select him, the precedent having been set with Francis in 2017 that having a club contract counted as English based. As it is, imo, Shields is no more than a decent club player.



Only player RFU actively recruited was Burgess at Lancaster's behest. Even then, it ended up fully funded by Bath I think as other clubs objected to a player being RFU funded.  Unless we are talking about poaching fully qualified players from RL - not really relevant.

LondonTiger wrote:Only player RFU actively recruited was Burgess at Lancaster's behest. Even then, it ended up fully funded by Bath I think as other clubs objected to a player being RFU funded.  Unless we are talking about poaching fully qualified players from RL - not really relevant.

If anything, the Burgess case confirmed the unwillingness of the RFU to contract players. Alex Corbisiero wanted to limit his game time, and asked whether he could have an RFU contract, and be lent to Saints for designated club games. Lancaster was keen but the RFU baulked, unable to see how they could get the Premiership to agree to such a deal.

In Shields' case, he always knew he was England-qualified, and agents knew it too, so would have been sounding him out for some time over interest in playing for an English club. When Hansen ignore him again, Shields decided to pursue that route more actively. As part of his preparation, he spoke to Jones, who must have said enough to make him think it was worth a move. Whether he would have still moved if Jones had been as negative as he was in a conversation with Carl Fearns, we'll never know.

Pot Hale wrote:Larmour has gone and done it now....

“No one is scared of them, no one is afraid of them.  They are a quality team. So are we. We just need to turn up on the day and we can turn them over.”


He may have said other things as well, but it’s the sound bite that counts.  

The little runt! Anti Irish sentiment there. He'll be visited by officers from the Begorrah and Bejaysus Faux Sheepishness Department and told to mind his language or be deported.

The little runt! Anti Irish sentiment there. He'll be visited by officers from the Begorrah and Bejaysus Faux Sheepishness Department and told to mind his language or be deported.

Actually the Irish lads are as arrogant than the English – and so they should be given the excellence of recent performances.

However it’s a little known fact (I only know through my associations with the Tyneside Irish) that the interviews that you hear ‘live’ are not in fact 100% live but have a 2 second transmission delay and the actual words that the Irish player 'speaks' are actually coming from a set of sound-alikes reading from a script in deeply buried  control centre ‘somewhere’ in Ireland.

Then there’s some lip-syncing going on with the broadcast and voila! – Humble down to Earth chaps.

If you lot only knew…

Yeah...it happens unfortunately.

Paulie O'Connell had to be dubbed a lot in his time. He's a foul mouthed, smug f**king w**ker most of the time.

Oh a thread with rugby chat and a little humour...what a rare thing on here.

The Awesome Kiwi Two Cents Rugby has done a video on the numbers of overseas players playing for each top tier side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gwe8LFyIio

It seems clear to me that the high numbers of players born overseas tend to be highest in countries where immigration for economic reasons from other rugby playing nations is prevalent either due to proximity or simply because economic conditions are better there.

Interestingly there are the same amount (-1) of English players playing for other countries as there are New Zealanders.

Some countries like Argentina simply don't have the conditions for attracting overseas born players. They don't have a stable economy, the successive socialist governments of the Kirchners destroyed any possibility of that with a huge emphasis on public spending leading to inflation something the more sensible and less corrupt incumbent Mauricio Macri has been very ineffective in addressing. Secondly, Argentina simply doesn't have a strong enough domestic league to attract rugby players from around the world. Most of Argentina's immigration comes from Venezuela another country absolutely destroyed by successive socialist governments. Maybe someday the next Serge Blanco will line out for Argentina.

South Africa has its own economic problems. GDP per capita is less than a fifth of what it is in Ireland for example so you simply aren't going to get many NH players seeking a living there anymore. I have no doubt given how nice a country, good food wine, people etc. that there would be plenty of imports if foreign born players could make a living there.

The NH sides numbers spike a lot because as they are all small countries with high immigration levels and high proximity to other rugby playing nations and they all have strong well paid leagues. High volumes of the players were born in a neighbouring country and they or their parents have just returned home so as in the case of England born players playing for Wales for example.

NZ also has a very strong league however, GDP per capita in NZ is half what it is in Ireland so the majority of overseas players for NZ tend to come from the islands. There is also a lot of immigration from China whose government now seems to own half of New Zealand but they aren't known for their rugby prowess.

Whereas of all SH nations Australia has the strongest GDP per capita and immigration so probably no surprise that they have the most foreign born players of all SH sides including more than most six nations sides given that Australia also has a strong enough domestic league. However, Australia's GDP is still only 2/3 of Ireland's GDP per capita so its no surprise that the main flow to places like Australia is still players from NZ, SA and various islands.

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:No. Told you under 2 previous threads one of which you shut down the the rfu don't  have anything to do with clubs selection policies. In England it's up to clubs what they do. Found that snyman tackle for you ad well as requested. 66 min.
Amd no to the 2nd part he had not played for wasps when he was capped.

Not sure that’s entirely true, 7.5. I think in the case of Shields he was first approached by the RFU rather than a club, wasn’t he? Not sure he was actually on any of the clubs’ radars. Similarly, Burgess was an RFU move.

The RFU identify players for the clubs. Think Sam Burgess.

The thing is No 7&1/2 will never admit to anything, and will always hump the legs of any Irish person on here.

Also Rokodungi (spelling).