My Dad's bigger than your Dad

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Date: Saturday 10th November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Jerome Garces (France)
Assistant 1:  Jaco Peyper (SA)
Assistant 2:  Marius Mitrea (Italy)
TMO:            Marius Jonker (SA)




Teams


England

[size=42]15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 22 caps), 14 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 14 caps), 12 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 14 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 38 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 62 caps) co-captain, 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 78 caps), 1 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 94 caps) co-captain, 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 14 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 23 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 26 caps), 6 Brad Shields (Wasps, 3 caps), 7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 6 caps), 8 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 5 caps).[/size]
[size=42]Finishers[/size]
[size=42]16 Jamie George (Saracens, 29 caps), 17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps), 19 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 7 caps), 20 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 65 caps), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 82 caps), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 48 caps), 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps).[/size]




New Zealand

1. Karl Tu'inukuafe (10)
2. Codie Taylor (39)
3. Owen Franks (104)
4. Samuel Whitelock (106)
5. Brodie Retallick (72)
6. Liam Squire (21) 
7. Ardie Savea (32)
8. Kieran Read - captain (115)
9. Aaron Smith (80)
10. Beauden Barrett (70)
11. Rieko Ioane (21)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (50)
13. Jack Goodhue (5)
14. Ben Smith (74)
15. Damian McKenzie (20)

16. Dane Coles (57)
17. Ofa Tuungafasi (23)
18. Nepo Laulala (14)
19. Scott Barrett (26)
20. Matt Todd (15)
21. TJ Perenara (52)
22. Richie Mo'unga (5)
23. Ryan Crotty (42

Taylorman wrote:Does Tuilagi have form? because thats one the ABs will be looking to cover after 2012. Possibly the best back performance vs the ABs since then.

He showed up well in a recent game against Scarlets, where he played opposite Jon Davies, who is also coming back from injury. That has reignited hopes he might be in decent form.

On the other hand, he leaps out the defensive line a lot, which Farrell also does, so any competent attack will exploit that weakness.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Does Tuilagi have form? because thats one the ABs will be looking to cover after 2012. Possibly the best back performance vs the ABs since then.

He showed up well in a recent game against Scarlets, where he played opposite Jon Davies, who is also coming back from injury. That has reignited hopes he might be in decent form.

On the other hand, he leaps out the defensive line a lot, which Farrell also does, so any competent attack will exploit that weakness.

Yes hes talented but six years since he made that splash has been quiet with injury etc. Interesting if he plays.

If England churn out the same performance as they did on Saturday against the Springboks then I expect a very long day for them.

Their indiscipline, especially Itoje's, has to be well under control against the AB's.

Taylorman wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

Tom Curry is out of England's autumn Test against New Zealand with what head coach Eddie Jones described as a "severe ankle injury".

Manu Tuilagi and Courtney Lawes are both expected to be available.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/46105540

Does Tuilagi have form? because thats one the ABs will be looking to cover after 2012. Possibly the best back performance vs the ABs since then.

Some. He had a great game taking the proverbial out of an international pair of centers playing for Scarlets the other day, but does seem all too fragile Definitely heading in the right direction but still feels like early days

Another blow losing curry.
So this is decision time then. Underhill back into the squad I presume. His physicality would be mightily useful if he's fit enough.

Collapse2005 wrote:Id imagine even the Welsh will be supporting England on Saturday

Ha, good one!

I thought Wales put the United in United Kingdom?

Ill be supporting England anyway. Id love to go to that game.

Underhill was a sub in the Premiership Rugby Cup game but not in the squad for the game before that - is he coming back from injury?

The other option among players he's used is probably Jack Clifford, who's been out for a long time with shoulder and knee trouble but played decently in Quins' last couple of games. But Eddie's always been willing to surprise us...

I did post this on the SA thread, but it got lost in Farrell chat.

I think Eddie will try to limit his changes. He needs a change in the back row with Curry out, and you'd think that would be Mercer to start and most likely Underhill onto the bench. The only other squad option would be Rhodes.

In the backs, Tuilagi will probably revert to the bench spot. We could also see Brown come in, potentially on the left wing to help the back 3 with their high ball concerns.

I think Eddie will go for something like:

Hepburn, Hartley, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Shields, Wilson, Mercer, Youngs, Farrell, Brown, Te'o, Slade, May, Daly
George, Moon, Williams, Lawes, Underhill, Care, Ford, Tuilagi

Is Jones not likely to revert back to Ford at 10?

Collapse2005 wrote:Is Jones not likely to revert back to Ford at 10?

He could do, although I think Jones has a lot of time for Te'o and will give him a run of starts here, and I don't think he'll drop Farrell.

I have been wrong second guessing Jones plenty of times over the last 3 years though.

Does anyone think that Hepburn getting hooked at half time suggest he had a poor game....and wont start against the ABs?

propdavid_london wrote:Does anyone think that Hepburn getting hooked at half time suggest he had a poor game....and wont start against the ABs?

Hepburn carried the can for his and Sinckler's first half failings. I can definitely see Moon starting with Hepburn on the bench.

robbo277 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Is Jones not likely to revert back to Ford at 10?

He could do, although I think Jones has a lot of time for Te'o and will give him a run of starts here, and I don't think he'll drop Farrell.

I have been wrong second guessing Jones plenty of times over the last 3 years though.

I do not believe he will start Ford this week.

Props failings?

I wouldn't be surprised if he started Ford this week. He's not beyond starting Farrell last week in (correct) anticipation of having a very direct, physical game, but holding Ford back so that there's longer to work on a more attacking gameplan for the All Blacks.

Gotta have those notes Eddie...

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/108408264/england-coach-eddie-jones-taps-into-his-lions-stars-for-secrets-to-beating-all-blacks

Borthwick coy about Underhill coming in as a straight replacement for Curry.

A lot of pundits want to see Underhill at 7, Wilson at 6 and Mercer at 8.

Wouldn't surprise me to see Wilson Shields and Mercer. Also, if Lawes is fit, then Jones will have the temptation again of playing either him or Itoje at 6.

Didnt know this...

Cmon England, dont spoil the party...

‘A world record is in the offing for the All Blacks in their test match against England at Twickenham on Sunday (NZ time).

Such has been their constantly threatening strikes this year, New Zealand are on the cusp of creating a new mark, 13, for the most consecutive test matches in which a team has scored four or more tries.‘

"Coach asks players what tactics were effective against next opponents the last time they played them scandal"

Come on, Taylor man, it's hardly a daft thing to do

Scotland were the last side NZ failed to get 4 tries against in the 17-22 game last November NZ almost lost.

and before that it was the Lions and Ireland in Dublin in 2016.

Easy peasy.

Yes a couple of hiccups. Last record equal with japan and a couple of others the ABs equalled at 12, way way back in 2016. Dont think we’ll see another tier one side doing that for some time

I don't think this is the best NZ team that has travelled to Britain, in fact I'd say they are not even in the top 10, they are beatable and they do leak tries.

Taylorman wrote:Gotta have those notes Eddie...

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/108408264/england-coach-eddie-jones-taps-into-his-lions-stars-for-secrets-to-beating-all-blacks

I don't think he's allowed to pick Murray, Faletau, JD2 and SOB is he ?

Any news on who's been cut from the squad? I think we were down to 25 by this time last week.

robbo277 wrote:Any news on who's been cut from the squad? I think we were down to 25 by this time last week.

They did it on Tuesday last week, but no news yet.

Aha I lied:

England’s 25-man squad to face New Zealand

Forwards: Charlie Ewels, Jamie George, Dylan Hartley, Alec Hepburn, Maro Itoje, George Kruis, Courtney Lawes, Zach Mercer, Ben Moon, Brad Shields, Kyle Sinckler, San Underhill, Harry Williams, Mark Wilson.


Backs: Chris Ashton, Danny Care, Elliot Daly, Owen Farrell, George Ford, Jonny May, Jack Nowell, Henry Slade, Ben Te’o, Manu Tuilagi, Ben Youngs.

No Curry then

BamBam wrote:No Curry then

He has been ruled out for quite some time after surgery on his ankle.

Oh, clearly not paying enough attention

BamBam wrote:Oh, clearly not paying enough attention

It slipped out in an interview with Borthwick, so most would have fallen asleep.

munkian wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Gotta have those notes Eddie...

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/108408264/england-coach-eddie-jones-taps-into-his-lions-stars-for-secrets-to-beating-all-blacks

I don't think he's allowed to pick Murray, Faletau, JD2 and SOB is he ?

I hate this claptrap that comes out to keep the pre-game entertainment cooking.

Is Eddie an International coach?  Does he have a big team behind him stuffed with analyists, and metre checkers and move breakdowners?  His team will have been pouring over all relevant games during the last few years to work out opposition team strategies, strengths, weaknesses....

but nope............................. he needs a secret dossier compiled by Lions players to find out how it's really done in practice.

What Trumponian/Putin/Ruskies-are-coming crap.  

Every game will be different; different personnel, different weather, different refs, different set plays (some seen before some maybe not seen before).  But that player dossier................... if'n Eddie follows that secret juicy stuff, the game is in the bag.  

I got one for him that I heard from a specific Irish player that I won't mention.  The Lions Mascot has to be placed on the Captain's Changing Room bench at 45 degrees to the pitch - longitudinally - head to the wall.

LondonTiger wrote:

BamBam wrote:Oh, clearly not paying enough attention

It slipped out in an interview with Borthwick, so most would have fallen asleep.

I have always found that Farrell works better at 10 with Care at 9 rather than Youngs at 9. Care and Farrell just seem to click better and I do feel Care is a far more dynamic 9 than Youngs and that is what Farrell needs.

Could just be me though.

eirebilly wrote:I have always found that Farrell works better at 10 with Care at 9 rather than Youngs at 9. Care and Farrell just seem to click better and I do feel Care is a far more dynamic 9 than Youngs and that is what Farrell needs.

Could just be me though.

Care /Farrell combo has worked really well, when Care was doing much more of the french style no.9 creative stuff. That was a few years ago though and I am not sure how good Care's form is at the moment.

Farrell works well with Wigglesworth who is less dynamic than any... well less dynamic than my gran, and she has been dead 7 years now.

I think the point with Wigglesworth is that he is the best box kicker in the English game, which allows his team to go forward and get on the front foot. When the ball is turned over Farrell looks a much better running threat than he does from simple first phase ball. Plus we probably see Farrell and Wigglesworth together for Saracens when they steamroller most teams.

The reason Youngs starts and Care "finishes" is that you need a good box kick from the start of a game when it is tight and structured. Care isn't the best, as he over kicks too often - but he is a better snipping 9 than Youngs, so is best suited to the last 20 minutes of a game when it generally loosens up. A good box kick at international level is a key tactic for Northern hemisphere teams.

Point taken about the box kicking ability from Youngs over that of Care but I do feel that England look more dangerous in attack with Care and Farrell at 9 and 10.

If Youngs is to start then I think you need Ford at 10 and Farrell at 12 as I believe Farrell works better outside a play maker rather than being the play maker but that approach weakens England's midfield defence for me.

Sharkey06 wrote:I think the point with Wigglesworth is that he is the best box kicker in the English game, which allows his team to go forward and get on the front foot.  When the ball is turned over Farrell looks a much better running threat than he does from simple first phase ball.  Plus we probably see Farrell and Wigglesworth together for Saracens when they steamroller most teams.

The reason Youngs starts and Care "finishes" is that you need a good box kick from the start of a game when it is tight and structured.  Care isn't  the best, as he over kicks too often - but he is a better snipping 9 than Youngs, so is best suited to the last 20 minutes of a game when it generally loosens up.  A good box kick at international level is a key tactic for Northern hemisphere teams.

Its a key tactic for SA,NZ and Argentina too.

Not a regular reader of the Telegraph so unsure who all but the first two of these are, but suggested teams from the writers in the Telegraph:

Mick Cleary wrote:15. Elliot Daly, 14. Jack Nowell, 13. Henry Slade, 12. Ben Te'o, 11. Jonny May, 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Ben Moon, 2. Dylan Hartley, 3. Kyle Sinckler, 4. Maro Itoje, 5. George Kruis, 6. Brad Shields, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Mark Wilson

Underhill for Curry and Moon for Hepburn

Gavin Mair wrote:15. Elliot Daly, 14. Jack Nowell, 13. Henry Slade, 12. Ben Te'o, 11. Jonny May, 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Ben Moon, 2. Dylan Hartley, 3. Harry Williams, 4. Maro Itoje, 5. George Kruis, 6. Brad Shields, 7. Mark Wilson, 8. Zach Mercer

Mercer for Curry and switching both props.

Charlie Morgan wrote:15. Elliot Daly, 14. Chris Ashton, 13. Henry Slade, 12. Ben Te'o, 11. Jonny May, 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Ben Moon, 2. Dylan Hartley, 3. Kyle Sinckler, 4. Maro Itoje, 5. George Kruis, 6. Mark Wilson, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Zach Mercer

Ashton for Nowell, Underhill for Curry, Mercer fopr Shields and Moon for Hepburn 

Ben Coles wrote:15. Elliot Daly, 14. Chris Ashton, 13. Henry Slade, 12. Ben Te'o, 11. Jack Nowell, 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Ben Moon, 2. Dylan Hartley, 3. Harry Williams, 4. Maro Itoje, 5. George Kruis, 6. Brad Shields, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Mark Wilson

Ashton for May, switching both props, Underhill for Curry

Giles Mole wrote:15. Chris Ashton, 14. Jack Nowell, 13. Henry Slade, 12. Manu Tuilagi, 11. Jonny May, 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Ben Moon, 2. Dylan Hartley, 3. Kyle Sinckler, 4. Maro Itoje, 5. George Kruis, 6. Brad Shields, 7. Mark Wilson, 8. Zach Mercer

Ashton for Daly, Manu for Te'o, Moon for Hepburn and Mercer for Curry

Julien Bennett wrote:15. Elliot Daly, 14. Chris Ashton, 13. Henry Slade, 12. Ben Te'o, 11. Jonny May, 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Danny Care; 1. Ben Moon, 2. Jamie George, 3. Kyle Sinckler, 4. Maro Itoje, 5. George Kruis, 6. Brad Shields, 7. Mark Wilson, 8. Zach Mercer

Ashton for Nowell, Care for Youngs, Moon for Hepburn, George for Hartley, Mercer for Curry

Kate Rowan wrote:15. Elliot Daly, 14. Jack Nowell, 13. Manu Tuilagi, 12. Ben Te'o, 11. Jonny May, 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Ben Moon, 2. Dylan Hartley, 3. Kyle Sinckler, 4. Maro Itoje, 5. George Kruis, 6. Brad Shields, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Mark Wilson

Manu for Slade, Moon for Hepburn, Underhill for Curry

Guys, here's how it will go down (assuming some players make a miraculous recovery)

Why is Aaron Smith taking kick offs in that video?

LondonTiger wrote:Aha I lied:

England’s 25-man squad to face New Zealand

Forwards: Charlie Ewels, Jamie George, Dylan Hartley, Alec Hepburn, Maro Itoje, George Kruis, Courtney Lawes, Zach Mercer, Ben Moon, Brad Shields, Kyle Sinckler, San Underhill, Harry Williams, Mark Wilson.


Backs: Chris Ashton, Danny Care, Elliot Daly, Owen Farrell, George Ford, Jonny May, Jack Nowell, Henry Slade, Ben Te’o, Manu Tuilagi, Ben Youngs.

Thanks for providing. I had a quick look but couldn't find anything.

So Curry out as we knew, Underhill back in and Lawes and Tuilagi coming back from their minor injuries.

I've heard Ashton for Nowell touted. Tuilagi will probably come back onto the bench, so I think one of those two wingers will miss out.

In the forwards, Lawes will probably come back in for Ewels assuming he is fit. The questions then relate to which props and back rows Jones decides to start.

It looks like a relatively settled side. Hopefully the team are stronger for the 80 minutes they had together last week, they'll need to be.

Collapse2005 wrote:Why is Aaron Smith taking kick offs in that video?

Clearly, New Zealand will be forced into a series of basic errors

Will NZ be recovering from the norovirus this time ?

munkian wrote:Will NZ be recovering from the norovirus this time ?

Yeah, but Moody out doesnt help. Will still be an easy win though. Englands pack got mauled vs the Boks. Theyll be targeted here big time, and unlike the boks, the ABs wont forget to score while theyre doing it.

Just saw Moody is out, ripped eyelid. Guy has had some bad luck with injuries this year.

LondonTiger wrote:Not a regular reader of the Telegraph so unsure who all but the first two of these are, but suggested teams from the writers in the Telegraph:

Mick Cleary wrote:15. Elliot Daly, 14. Jack Nowell, 13. Henry Slade, 12. Ben Te'o, 11. Jonny May, 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Ben Moon, 2. Dylan Hartley, 3. Kyle Sinckler, 4. Maro Itoje, 5. George Kruis, 6. Brad Shields, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Mark Wilson

Underhill for Curry and Moon for Hepburn

Gavin Mair wrote:15. Elliot Daly, 14. Jack Nowell, 13. Henry Slade, 12. Ben Te'o, 11. Jonny May, 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Ben Moon, 2. Dylan Hartley, 3. Harry Williams, 4. Maro Itoje, 5. George Kruis, 6. Brad Shields, 7. Mark Wilson, 8. Zach Mercer

Mercer for Curry and switching both props.

Charlie Morgan wrote:15. Elliot Daly, 14. Chris Ashton, 13. Henry Slade, 12. Ben Te'o, 11. Jonny May, 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Ben Moon, 2. Dylan Hartley, 3. Kyle Sinckler, 4. Maro Itoje, 5. George Kruis, 6. Mark Wilson, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Zach Mercer

Ashton for Nowell, Underhill for Curry, Mercer fopr Shields and Moon for Hepburn 

Ben Coles wrote:15. Elliot Daly, 14. Chris Ashton, 13. Henry Slade, 12. Ben Te'o, 11. Jack Nowell, 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Ben Moon, 2. Dylan Hartley, 3. Harry Williams, 4. Maro Itoje, 5. George Kruis, 6. Brad Shields, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Mark Wilson

Ashton for May, switching both props, Underhill for Curry

Giles Mole wrote:15. Chris Ashton, 14. Jack Nowell, 13. Henry Slade, 12. Manu Tuilagi, 11. Jonny May, 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Ben Moon, 2. Dylan Hartley, 3. Kyle Sinckler, 4. Maro Itoje, 5. George Kruis, 6. Brad Shields, 7. Mark Wilson, 8. Zach Mercer

Ashton for Daly, Manu for Te'o, Moon for Hepburn and Mercer for Curry

Julien Bennett wrote:15. Elliot Daly, 14. Chris Ashton, 13. Henry Slade, 12. Ben Te'o, 11. Jonny May, 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Danny Care; 1. Ben Moon, 2. Jamie George, 3. Kyle Sinckler, 4. Maro Itoje, 5. George Kruis, 6. Brad Shields, 7. Mark Wilson, 8. Zach Mercer

Ashton for Nowell, Care for Youngs, Moon for Hepburn, George for Hartley, Mercer for Curry

Kate Rowan wrote:15. Elliot Daly, 14. Jack Nowell, 13. Manu Tuilagi, 12. Ben Te'o, 11. Jonny May, 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Ben Moon, 2. Dylan Hartley, 3. Kyle Sinckler, 4. Maro Itoje, 5. George Kruis, 6. Brad Shields, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Mark Wilson

Manu for Slade, Moon for Hepburn, Underhill for Curry

Am i the only one that thinks Ben Coles choice of replacing May is crazy? i would understand if it was Ashton in for Nowell but May have constantly been one of englands best performers.

ebop wrote:Just saw Moody is out, ripped eyelid. Guy has had some bad luck with injuries this year.

Yeah only good thing from that is he gets more rest and can focus on next years World cup. he needs to be the best loosehead at that tournament. Brings in Karl T I guess, the rags to riches story of 2018. Uncontracted start of the year, shortlisted as most World rugbys most promising within ten months.

Not too shabby...

A ripped eyelid you say?