My Dad's bigger than your Dad

by **LondonTiger** Mon 05 Nov 2018, 3:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

Date: Saturday 10th November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee: Jerome Garces (France)
Assistant 1: Jaco Peyper (SA)
Assistant 2: Marius Mitrea (Italy)
TMO: Marius Jonker (SA)

Teams

England

[size=42]15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 22 caps), 14 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 14 caps), 12 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 14 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 38 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 62 caps) co-captain, 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 78 caps), 1 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 94 caps) co-captain, 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 14 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 23 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 26 caps), 6 Brad Shields (Wasps, 3 caps), 7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 6 caps), 8 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 5 caps).[/size]
[size=42]Finishers[/size]
[size=42]16 Jamie George (Saracens, 29 caps), 17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps), 19 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 7 caps), 20 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 65 caps), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 82 caps), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 48 caps), 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps).[/size]

New Zealand

1. Karl Tu'inukuafe (10)
2. Codie Taylor (39)
3. Owen Franks (104)
4. Samuel Whitelock (106)
5. Brodie Retallick (72)
6. Liam Squire (21)
7. Ardie Savea (32)
8. Kieran Read - captain (115)
9. Aaron Smith (80)
10. Beauden Barrett (70)
11. Rieko Ioane (21)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (50)
13. Jack Goodhue (5)
14. Ben Smith (74)
15. Damian McKenzie (20)

16. Dane Coles (57)
17. Ofa Tuungafasi (23)
18. Nepo Laulala (14)
19. Scott Barrett (26)
20. Matt Todd (15)
21. TJ Perenara (52)
22. Richie Mo'unga (5)
23. Ryan Crotty (42

by SecretFly Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:06 am

Ease up everyone. Collapse ain't Ireland, just Irish...so let's go easy on the Collapsisms when challenging Collapse.

Most of us in Ireland know exactly where we are in rugby terms, don't need any text books of history being thrown at us - we were there, we felt the pain, we know what defeat tastes like at the most bitter moments.

But we have a pretty good team now. Invincible - nope, not close. We have a pretty good side - a smart side and a hard fighting side; a physicial side and a sometimes beautiful side, and we think we deserve (at the moment) to be Number 2.

No apologies for being Number 2. We'll lose it one day, maybe very soon. So be it. We have a pretty good team and are a pretty decent rugby playing Nation. That won't change, even if beaten at the weekend.

by LordDowlais Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:12 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:More likely ld is out of his depth and jumping around conversations again.

No not out of my depth at all thank you.

Just pointing out yours and collapses glaring delusions of grandeur. Rolling Eyes

by No 7&1/2 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:14 am

By agreeing that the rankings don't mean a thing. Yeah you got me good.

by Collapse2005 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:14 am

Biltong wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Would you rather lose to SA (ranked 7th) at home or lose to Australia (ranked 3rd) away?

I wouldn't rather either, but what kind of question is that ? Going back to 1908 Ireland have never nilled South Africa and the most points they have ever put on them is 38 last year. I must have missed something because Ireland are not all conquering sweeping all before them aside.

Collapse2005 wrote:Would you rather a grand slam in the 6 nations or win the rugby championship without a clean sweep against lower ranked sides?

You are talking as if a grand slam is the norm for Ireland, it's not as if any other nation has achieved that lately.

The way you go about yourself on here, you would swear that Ireland are some sort of juggernaut that cannot be stopped.

Look at the history of the 6N, Ireland's record is more comparable to Scotland than anyone else's and Ireland's record at the World cup is embarrassing to say the least. You have never got passed the quarter finals.

You and no 7 & 1/2 are both delusional if you think you can compare your countries rugby achievements with New Zealand and think they are comparable.

Good effort in completely avoiding both question. I think the conversation has gone way over your head Lord.

The reason LD is not entertaining your questions is because you have lost touch with reality.

Ireland this year won with a grandslam, when last did they achieve that?

You celebrate the fact that Ireland is ranked number two, and so should you. But to harp on the fact that NZ beat lower ranked sides is firstly not the general trend. Historically South Africa and Australia fight it out for second and third 75% of the time, with the odd splattering of a six nations team making it to the top three.

New Zealand is a better team than Ireland 91.93548% of the time according to win ratio, they outscore
Ireland 27.8-11.58 on average.

There is nothing that suggests Ireland is better than New Zealand, even if you take this year's results. If Ireland does win this weekend, then they will have improved their success rate by a few percentages. And it will give your team belief as they enter the RWC.

To be at the top you need to perform consistently, not once a decade.

You also need to update your information on world rankings.

Not that it carries much weight anyhow.

The conversation seems to have gone over your head too Billtong. I have never claimed Ireland are better than New Zealand there is an argument to made that Ireland have however, had a better year so far with Saturday being the ultimate showdown. If you are going to chime in all guns blazing then at least read the whole conversation so you understand the context of my comments.

Kind of sad when you have to put a moderator on mute.

by LordDowlais Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:15 am

SecretFly wrote:Ease up everyone. Collapse ain't Ireland, just Irish...so let's go easy on the Collapsisms when challenging Collapse.

Most of us in Ireland know exactly where we are in rugby terms, don't need any text books of history being thrown at us - we were there, we felt the pain, we know what defeat tastes like at the most bitter moments.

But we have a pretty good team now. Invincible - nope, not close. We have a pretty good side - a smart side and a hard fighting side; a physicial side and a sometimes beautiful side, and we think we deserve (at the moment) to be Number 2.

No apologies for being Number 2. We'll lose it one day, maybe very soon. So be it. We have a pretty good team and are a pretty decent rugby playing Nation. That won't change, even if beaten at the weekend.

Yep, fair enough comment SF.

But Wales were 2nd in the rankings once, not so long ago, but we did not go goading the All Blacks supporters either. We also knew our place.

by LordDowlais Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:16 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:By agreeing that the rankings don't mean a thing. Yeah you got me good.

What on earth are you talking about ?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:19 am

I have though collapse. And you know.if you're arguing a point from one perspective along with others all the others hold the exact same point so you don't have to actually read and understand before your retort.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:20 am

Ld. Just read back. We've gone through this. You may understand on the 2nd time of reading.

by Collapse2005 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:20 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I have though collapse. And you know.if you're arguing a point from one perspective along with others all the others hold the exact same point so you don't have to actually read and understand before your retort.

I was responding to Billtong not you. He seems to have lost the plot lately.

by LordDowlais Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:25 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ld. Just read back. We've gone through this. You may understand on the 2nd time of reading.

You are harping on about world rankings, I ain't.

You are saying England are better than New Zealand a team that England have only beaten once in the last umpteen efforts, and incidentally, a team that beat you at home in your last encounter 5 days ago.

You are deluded.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:25 am

I meant that I have said I think england and Ireland are better collapse and thus unfortunately it's read as you as well.

by Collapse2005 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:26 am

There was an interesting chat with O'Driscoll and Tana on the Joe.ie podcast recently in which he said the same. Though I suspect as he is a Guinness ambassador in Ireland at the moment he may have been trying to be diplomatic on that point. Dane Coles recently admitted to not really watching much NH rugby.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:27 am

Why is it deluded ld? You watched the whole game.on saturday so I'm a touch surprised a neutral would consider new zealand as the better team.certainly when you consider the injuries and suspensions to the respective teams.

by LordDowlais Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:30 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it deluded ld? You watched the whole game.on saturday so I'm a touch surprised a neutral would consider new zealand as the better team.certainly when you consider the injuries and suspensions to the respective teams.

OK, I will say this slowly.....

En..ger..land...lost...to...the...ALL BLACKS....they lost.....

How were they the better team ?

England have beaten New Zealand once since 2003, how are they better ?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:33 am

Sigh. I thought Martin Johnson was poor on saturday didn't you? What he's been retired over 14 years? Then why talk of 2003? Oh I see. That's not at all relevant. Thanks! Right that saves that to and fro.

Sport is sport the best team doesn't always win on the day. As ebop said england choked on saturday. We threw away a win we should have got. It happens. I'd also say that England at full strength would have easily won.

by SecretFly Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:35 am

LordDowlais wrote:Yep, fair enough comment SF.

But Wales were 2nd in the rankings once, not so long ago, but we did not go goading the All Blacks supporters either. We also knew our place.

Got a big problem with 'knowing your place', Lord. That's back to Kings and Queens and bowing as supplicant and saying 'Please, Sir' to other human beings that are not a single step above me on any evolutionary pathway.

I hope I'm respectful in here most of the time. Playful but respectful.

.... but 'knowing your place'? I'll definitely pass on showing any of that trait, Lord - it's against my genetics to 'know my place'.

by Collapse2005 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:43 am

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it deluded ld? You watched the whole game.on saturday so I'm a touch surprised a neutral would consider new zealand as the better team.certainly when you consider the injuries and suspensions to the respective teams.

OK, I will say this slowly.....

En..ger..land...lost...to...the...ALL BLACKS....they lost.....

How were they the better team ?

England have beaten New Zealand once since 2003, how are they better ?

Zinzane Brooke on the rugby podcast with Brian Moore reckons the better team lost. I also think that England were marginally better on the day and were a little bit hard done by with the TMO call but you win some you lose some. I think they will be pretty encouraged by the performance.

by eirebilly Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:44 am

I actually thought that England did outplay The All Blacks for large percentages of the game on Saturday but I would not say that England are better than The All Blacks based on that showing alone.

For me it comes done to consistency and that is where the rest of us all lag behind The All Blacks.

I cant remember which All Black player it was but he had over 100 caps and had only been on the loosing team 10 times in his international career, that's astonishing.

by **George Carlin** Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:46 am

Jaysus, how quickly this has degenerated. Shall I just lock the thread?

by SecretFly Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:49 am

NO!

It is raw, messy debate.

It's life.

These eejits are talkative ... me too...but there is no real viciousness here.

Please no more politically correct downing of real bitey debate.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:50 am

No. No rules being broken. Simply a chat on rankings and placements now.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:56 am

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Ease up everyone. Collapse ain't Ireland, just Irish...so let's go easy on the Collapsisms when challenging Collapse.

Most of us in Ireland know exactly where we are in rugby terms, don't need any text books of history being thrown at us - we were there, we felt the pain, we know what defeat tastes like at the most bitter moments.

But we have a pretty good team now. Invincible - nope, not close. We have a pretty good side - a smart side and a hard fighting side; a physicial side and a sometimes beautiful side, and we think we deserve (at the moment) to be Number 2.

No apologies for being Number 2. We'll lose it one day, maybe very soon. So be it. We have a pretty good team and are a pretty decent rugby playing Nation. That won't change, even if beaten at the weekend.

Yep, fair enough comment SF.

But Wales were 2nd in the rankings once, not so long ago, but we did not go goading the All Blacks supporters either. We also knew our place.

The sooner Wales loses this subservient mindset, the sooner we might make something of ourselves.

by **Biltong** Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:56 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I have though collapse. And you know.if you're arguing a point from one perspective along with others all the others hold the exact same point so you don't have to actually read and understand before your retort.

I was responding to Billtong not you. He seems to have lost the plot lately.

Lost what plot funny man?

The only one that has lost anything is you, it is called reality.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:57 am

George Carlin wrote:Jaysus, how quickly this has degenerated. Shall I just lock the thread?

Nah, as it is no longer a match thread I changed the title and left the sandbox open for the kids. Better here than everywhere else Very Happy

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:57 am

Agreed. Let it become what it becomes.

by eirebilly Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:58 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

The sooner Wales loses this subservient mindset, the sooner we might make something of ourselves.

Back in your box there Lucky thumbsup

by Collapse2005 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:58 am

Biltong wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I have though collapse. And you know.if you're arguing a point from one perspective along with others all the others hold the exact same point so you don't have to actually read and understand before your retort.

I was responding to Billtong not you. He seems to have lost the plot lately.

Lost what plot funny man?

The only one that has lost anything is you, it is called reality.

Zzzzzzzzzzz. Shame you actually cant put moderators on mute. Boring. Don't you have anything rugby related to contribute?

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:59 am

eirebilly wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

The sooner Wales loses this subservient mindset, the sooner we might make something of ourselves.

Back in your box there Lucky

Why you... boxing

by **Biltong** Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:01 am

Collapse2005 wrote:

Kind of sad when you have to put a moderator on mute.

Listen porknuckle.

My debate has sweet Frak all to do with being a mod.

Yet it seems being a mod is really irking you.

Why don't you petition me being a mod? I will even sign your petition you dumb Frak.

Hopefully this post gives me a permanent ban so I cannot come back here and debate with a Frak cretin like you.

Your basement where you have your keyboard is starting to rot, get fresh air and wake the Frak up. There is a world out there, join it, perhaps you then learn what reality is.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:03 am

Yup. Standard level of debate there. Stop insulting people chief.

by Collapse2005 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:06 am

Biltong wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:

Kind of sad when you have to put a moderator on mute.

Listen porknuckle.

My debate has sweet Frak all to do with being a mod.

Yet it seems being a mod is really irking you.

Why don't you petition me being a mod? I will even sign your petition you dumb Frak.

Hopefully this post gives me a permanent ban so I cannot come back here and debate with a Frak cretin like you.

Your basement where you have your keyboard is starting to rot, get fresh air and wake the Frak up. There is a world out there, join it, perhaps you then learn what reality is.

All you contribute lately is ad hominin name calling Billtong while I literally have never called you anything. You are upset because I don't hold the same opinions as you but that's for you to deal with not me. By offering an opinion you risk offending someone, that's life.

I really don't care if you are a mod or banned but I do wish I could put you on mute because you don't add much to the conversation.

by **Biltong** Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:08 am

You don't have a clue what a positive contribution is Collapse.

You just clutter threads with nonsense.

by **George Carlin** Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:09 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Agreed. Let it become what it becomes.

There's an analogy about monkeys being out of cages but I am far too genteel to refer to it.

Oops.

by Collapse2005 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:11 am

Biltong wrote:You don't have a clue what a positive contribution is Collapse.

You just clutter threads with nonsense.

Feel free to ignore my comments if you don't like what I'm saying but policing opinions is a dangerous precedent to set anywhere. You are also free to put me on mute if you wish.

by SecretFly Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:11 am

Hmmmmm..

maybe I'll revise my request.

Think I got it wrong again, dad...........................

by eirebilly Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:12 am

I have not read the whole thread so not sure if this has been commented on but I was a little angry at Danny Care's theatrics at looking for a penalty in the closing minutes of Saturdays game. Had he not been so theatrical, the ref may have actually awarded England penalty.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:14 am

eirebilly wrote:I have not read the whole thread so not sure if this has been commented on but I was a little angry at Danny Care's theatrics at looking for a penalty in the closing minutes of Saturdays game. Had he not been so theatrical, the ref may have actually awarded England penalty.

It has been commented on, though easy to miss amidst all the noise. DC was perhaps a little excitable, subtle words to tyhe ref would have been more helpful, as well as listening to his skipper who was trying to get them in DG range when Care fizzed it wide.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:15 am

It has billy. I would have been as annoyed as the ref and ignored it too even though they were verging on a pen. There's been a lot of time that care from the bench is amazing. Lifts the tempo and the forwards and adds a heck of a running threat. If wigglesworth who is a poorer player for me had come on though I think lit would have suited the game at that point better. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

by eirebilly Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:16 am

LondonTiger wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I have not read the whole thread so not sure if this has been commented on but I was a little angry at Danny Care's theatrics at looking for a penalty in the closing minutes of Saturdays game. Had he not been so theatrical, the ref may have actually awarded England penalty.

It has been commented on, though easy to miss amidst all the noise. DC was perhaps a little excitable, subtle words to tyhe ref would have been more helpful, as well as listening to his skipper who was trying to get them in DG range when Care fizzed it wide.

Aha, cheers LT. It just really annoys me when I see things like that.

by Duty281 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:16 am

eirebilly wrote:I have not read the whole thread so not sure if this has been commented on but I was a little angry at Danny Care's theatrics at looking for a penalty in the closing minutes of Saturdays game. Had he not been so theatrical, the ref may have actually awarded England penalty.

Perhaps. I thought he should have certainly 'won' a penalty when he was tackled off the ball at the conclusion of the final All Blacks scrum but, as South Africa know, referees are far less likely to award such a penalty when it could decide the outcome of the game.

I do really dislike those theatrics that are creeping into the game, though. Perchance the referee could punish the actor?

by Collapse2005 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:17 am

Good news everyone. The IRFU has announced a three test tour to New Zealand in 2022.

Ireland will also play NZ in November 2021.

by **Biltong** Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:19 am

Duty281 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I have not read the whole thread so not sure if this has been commented on but I was a little angry at Danny Care's theatrics at looking for a penalty in the closing minutes of Saturdays game. Had he not been so theatrical, the ref may have actually awarded England penalty.

Perhaps. I thought he should have certainly 'won' a penalty when he was tackled off the ball at the conclusion of the final All Blacks scrum but, as South Africa know, referees are far less likely to award such a penalty when it could decide the outcome of the game.

I do really dislike those theatrics that are creeping into the game, though. Perchance the referee could punish the actor?

i saw those theatrics a few times this weekend, not only danny Care.

Can't pinpoint those instances off hand, but thought it deserved a reprimand from the referees.

Another is this new method halfbacks use to "collect" the ball in preparation before the box kick. It slows down play and in my opinion are illegal.

by SecretFly Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:20 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Good news everyone. The IRFU has announced a three test tour to New Zealand in 2022.

Ireland will also play NZ in November 2021.

Taylorman has agreed to put you up, Guns.

That'll be a nice few weeks for his neighbours............... and the local riot police Whistle

by SecretFly Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:22 am

Biltong wrote: It slows down play and in my opinion are illegal.

Ya just gotta slow down play when you is knackered, Bilt.....

Even refs do it by blowing whistles when their lungs are on fire.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:22 am

Collect the ball? Moving it back you mean? Some refs are a bit hotter on calling to use it.

My latest ref bug bear is the amount of times players are picking up the ball from.offside in the ruck and not being called for it.

by Big Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:25 am

Question - in an age of widespread obesity, does the comparative brag not become 'your Dad's bigger than my Dad'?

by Collapse2005 Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:25 am

SecretFly wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Good news everyone. The IRFU has announced a three test tour to New Zealand in 2022.

Ireland will also play NZ in November 2021.

Taylorman has agreed to put you up, Guns.

That'll be a nice few weeks for his neighbours............... and the local riot police

Id take that offer although I believe that Taylorman is a prison guard so maybe not such a good idea.

by **George Carlin** Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:28 am

Big wrote:Question - in an age of widespread obesity, does the comparative brag not become 'your Dad's bigger than my Dad'?

by SecretFly Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:33 am

George Carlin wrote:
Big wrote:Question - in an age of widespread obesity, does the comparative brag not become 'your Dad's bigger than my Dad'?

That kinda fencing might get very risqué very quickly though. Not a game for the queasy

by **Biltong** Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:34 am

The offside call against Courtney Lawes this past weekend was in my opinion impacted due to the manner in which referees interpret ruck play by halfbacks.

Halfbacks are allowed to use their feet and hands to roll the ball backwards into a position where they can effortlessly pick up the ball and box kick.

Looking at the law is says ruck is over when the ball is played away from the ruck, in other picked up.

Once the ball is available the referee must call use it, which allows the halfback 5 seconds to play the ball, when the reality is the halfback has been "playing" the ball already.

It has set a general trend where referees now allow halfbacks these antics and thus providing them ample time to get the game moving.

Lawes was caught in the trap of interpretation, ie. when is the ball actually out,

World rugby needs to clarify this process.

The problem once again hinges around i terpretation.

Too many decisions are 50/50 due to no clarity.

Offside lines calls, illegal tackle calls, aerial challenges and now when is the ruck over calls.

Hence you need to adapt an approach of the referee will cost you points, even though not willfully

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