England vs Japan - 3rd Quilter International

First topic message reminder :

Date: Saturday 17th November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Paul Williams (NZ)
Assistant 1:  Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 2:  Dan Jones (Wales)
TMO:            Marius Jonker (SA)




Teams


England
 
Squad:

Forwards
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs), Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors) *, Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby), Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), Nick Schonert (Worcester Warriors), Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Elliott Stooke (Bath Rugby), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons).

Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

*Apprentice

 



Japan


TBC

Solomona just coming back from injury, and done very little noteworthy in the last 12 months.

No solomona isn't injured.
Any answer to how central contracts work with form picks?
Why is it too late to include only some players now?

And obviously ashton coming back into contention and the emergence of cokanasiga pushes solomona down the pecking order.

No 7&1/2 wrote:No solomona isn't injured.
Any answer to how central contracts work with form picks?
Why is it too late to include only some players now?

They probably wouldn't.

If you could put the core of the squad on them, that would help. Sink, Vunipola's, Itoje, Farrell, May?

The RFU could buy them out of their contract (or sign when finished) and then loan them back with say a 10 game a season limit.

Wing is much like other area's of selection where injury and selection has affected us.
Agree that hopefully Watson will provide the fb answer, though with time limited we probably need to persist with Daly....which shouldn't be such a big deal as it appears to be.
Ive answered the selection of form players in terms of injury cover.
Ultimately the fundamental issues of elite player contracts, resulting from the ongoing union club war, the corporate incompetence of the union and Jones limiting game plan mean that what is a heculean task becomes an impossible one and so the opportunity for wc success and the resultant game expansion is lost but for the greed of the few.

I don't think you've really answered the questions. Sounds like it's soundbites but in the end you want your favourite players to be picked else you'll complain about the coach?

kingelderfield wrote:Wing is much like other area's of selection where injury and selection has affected us.
Agree that hopefully Watson will provide the fb answer, though with time limited we probably need to persist with Daly....which shouldn't be such a big deal as it appears to be.
Ive answered the selection of form players in terms of injury cover.
Ultimately the fundamental issues of elite player contracts, resulting from the ongoing union club war,  the corporate incompetence of the union and Jones limiting game plan mean that what is a heculean task becomes an impossible one and so the opportunity for wc success and the resultant game expansion is lost but for the greed of the few.

Yet, England were a hair's breath away form beating the ABs, too. Just a wee bit offside (or rather a wee bit more onside) and the game could have been won.

Indeed Rugby in England with the RFU and Premiership are a standard-issue corporate clusterf**k. Which is really a different discussion for another day, But, still were an inch on the offside call from grabbing a late lead.....

the resultant game expansion

Can you explain a bit about that phrase?

So, what lineup would people like for Australia. Despite what was a labouring victory by a team of largely 2nd, 3rd and perhaps even 4th choice players, victory on Saturday would make this a successful autumn.

Bearing in mind that Eddie is unlikely to call up new players, I would go with:

Daly, Nowell, Slade, Te'o, May, Farrell, Youngs, Wilson, Underhill, Shields, Itoje, Lawes, Sinckler, Hartley, Moon

George, Hepburn, Williams, Ewels, Mercer, Care, Ford, Tuilagi

I'd go
Moon hartley sinckler
Lawes Itoje
Shields underhill
Mercer
Youngs Farrell
May te'o slade cokanasiga
Daly
Hepburn george williams wilson hill care ford Tuilagi

I accept that's a risky bench in terms of lock and full back wing cover.

LondonTiger.

I like your team selection. but would probably put Daily on the bench in place of Tuilagi and bring Mike Brown in at full back.

LondonTiger wrote:So, what lineup would people like for Australia. Despite what was a labouring victory by a team of largely 2nd, 3rd and perhaps even 4th choice players, victory on Saturday would make this a successful autumn.

Bearing in mind that Eddie is unlikely to call up new players, I would go with:

Daly, Nowell, Slade, Te'o, May, Farrell, Youngs, Wilson, Underhill, Shields, Itoje, Lawes, Sinckler, Hartley, Moon

George, Hepburn, Williams, Ewels, Mercer, Care, Ford, Tuilagi

Having not seen the Japan game I don't feel as well placed to comment, but having been all change for Japan I can imagine a lot of those changes will reverse.

If Ashton isn't available I wouldn't be averse to your squad, and it's probably the most likely.

I'd be tempted to give Mercer a run from the start in place of Shields (Wilson to 6), but understand if he didn't take his chance against Japan.

Taking that 23 though and adding 2 Vunipolas, Genge, Launchbury and Robshaw makes us loads stronger in the pack. If we get Joseph, Ashton and Watson fit to push for places in the back as well, we start to look really good.

I think Ireland and New Zealand would probably be favourites over us on neutral territory at the World Cup, but would put us 50/50 at worst with anyone else in the cup.

I think if Tuilagi is fit he is at least going to be amongst the replacements. Time is ticking if he's going to be part of the RWC squad.

Mercer is a smart player with a ton of potential, but he was fairly anonymous vs Japan. His time will come but I would not be upset or surprised if he misses out next weekend

played Saturday so missed the majority of the game, caught the end when england were pulling away and only seen the highlights of the first half.

george have another stinker? who was at fault for giving so many of the penalties away?

from what i saw of cokanasiga, looked like he did well with what ball he was given. decent build up in the care try and took his try well.

Mixture of penalties and some were pretty harsh or as Itoje put it; incorrect. Wilson had a shocking opening 15 min giving away 3 but improved as the match wore on.

cheers, yeah read back on here about the japan defence being offside without being penalised yet we were getting pinned for it.

My favourite was the kick off after out early try. George catches it on full and is tackled. Both knees on floor. Ref misses that but no worries we're getting a scrum from a maul.off a kick....then we don't!

No 7&1/2 wrote:My favourite was the kick off after out early try. George catches it on full and is tackled.  Both knees on floor. Ref misses that but no worries we're getting a scrum from a maul.off a kick....then we don't!

Yeah, ref completely forgot the laws there.

16.8 If a maul is formed immediately after a player has directly caught an opponent’s kick in open play, a scrum that is awarded for any of the above reasons will be to the team of the ball catcher.

All in all I think it's a positive weekend. A couple of new players capped. V inexperienced ref lends himself to the spectacle of the game he'll improve loads I'm sure. And wc practice of a 2 day training week overcome.

Always the optimist 7.5

1.Moon 2.Hartley 3.Williams 4.Itoje 5.Lawes 6.Wilson 7.Underhill 8.Mercer
9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Te'o 13.Slade 14.Nowell 15.Daly

16.George 17.Hepburn 18.Sinckler 19.Ewels 20.Shields 21.Care 22.Ford 23.Tuilagi

I'd retain Mercer against Australia. With Billy having so many injury problems I think Mercer is our best bet of depth at 8. Hughes is physical but lacking at the top level, Simmonds is a very good player but not an 8 in my opinion and Morgan can do some things very well but others pretty averagely.

I'd persevere with Mercer and see how he adapts.

Mercer has already been dropped kc (as has Care and Lozowski) - all on the Australia game thread

LondonTiger wrote:Mercer has already been dropped kc (as has Care and Lozowski) - all on the Australia game thread

Thanks LT, just read the report.

A shame that Mercer has been dropped. Hughes being recalled short of fitness is asking for yet another injury. I also think it represents a lack of flexibility with tactics. 'If Billy is fit we'd play him at 8 and get him to do most the carrying off 9, so lets pick another big lump and do the same'.

I think I share many fans opinion on Pier Francis when I say I just don't get it.

Mercer being dropped was odd.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:My favourite was the kick off after out early try. George catches it on full and is tackled.  Both knees on floor. Ref misses that but no worries we're getting a scrum from a maul.off a kick....then we don't!

Yeah, ref completely forgot the laws there.

16.8 If a maul is formed immediately after a player has directly caught an opponent’s kick in open play, a scrum that is awarded for any of the above reasons will be to the team of the ball catcher.

I think for a restart the kicking team get possession ... the 2017 laws were written more clearly and there was no change in law for 2018 but the rewriting made it more ambiguous.

Having said that if George's knees were on the ground it shouldn't have been a maul anyway.