England vs Japan - 3rd Quilter International

First topic message reminder :

Date: Saturday 17th November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Paul Williams (NZ)
Assistant 1:  Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 2:  Dan Jones (Wales)
TMO:            Marius Jonker (SA)




Teams


England
 
Squad:

Forwards
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs), Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors) *, Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby), Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), Nick Schonert (Worcester Warriors), Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Elliott Stooke (Bath Rugby), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons).

Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

*Apprentice

 



Japan


TBC

Has Nowell played much at 13 for cheifs?

Couple of times. Ford captain is pretty consistent.

"There wasn't anyone else in the squad, so it's no surprise, but it seems daft to yet again miss the chance to give experience to a third hooker."

After the New Zealand game George needs to restore confidence and establish himself as the no 2 - not that I am blaming him for the lineout issues.  I don't see giving out time in a fairly meaningless game to a 3rd choice hooker particularly helps.  If LCD came in and had a great game, most of us would just say it was only against Japan.

Ahh I don't get the lock in the back row thing.

That's my biggest gripe. Why not keep 6 Wilson, 7 Underhill, as two aggressive, robust flankers...then give Mercer the go at 8.

Nowell at 13...well Eddie is using his Aussie experience of "a back is a back regardless of the number on his shirt". And I think Nowell is a decent option for a 13 anyway.

I don't get people's hatred of shields. I understand after his head.knock in resting him but I'd be mightily surprised now to see him at 6 next week. Excited to see ted hill as well. Hope he gets at least 30 min.

I wanted to see Cokanasiga get a run out during the AIs. However playing in such a changed backline and against the weakest team we face, what can anyone actually learn?

Echos of Roku against Fiji a couple of years ago. Couple of tries, MotM and the dropped out of sight.

For me one of the two Co Captains should be starting, shows a lack of respect imho.

Yeah Ted Hill looks quite a prospect - though it would be nice to see the other older prospects hitting their full rather than another "prospect" just coming on the scene.

We seem to move from one hopeful to another...without any hitting their peak.

Rees...
The Young Saracens flanker who had to retire.
Clifford...
Willis
Underhill
Curry x 2
Now Ted Hill...

Can we not just get a nice injury free run so we can put out a consist back row who can build up to their peak

Interesting that Jones is trying to replicate the world cup schedule. Flew in from Portugal ( I think) couple of days before south africa so bit of disruption there but the same as we'll get next year.. Gave players anot day of this week to replicate the short turnaround we'll get for tonga in the world cup.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't get people's hatred of shields. I understand after his head.knock in resting him but I'd be mightily surprised now to see him at 6 next week. Excited to see ted hill as well. Hope he gets at least 30 min.

Hatred is pretty strong for most of his detractors.

For me I was not a fan of the way he was brought into the set up, while what I have seen of him for Wasps and England has been pretty average. I believe he is some way short of the quality needed. He seems slow, not especially physical and lacking any area to his game that makes me nor in appreciation excluding the imposing beard.

Sharkey06 wrote:After the New Zealand game George needs to restore confidence and establish himself as the no 2

I have no problem with George starting but the Japan game is the only real opportunity we have to put a different hooker on the bench. It seems crazy not to have involved a third hooker in our preparation. You say we might not learn much about them if they have a good game but what if they have a bad game?

Either that would mean he was unsuited to Test rugby, which would be good to know as soon as possible, or else he needs more experience at international level to find his feet, which would also be good to know. Why wait until the World Cup to find that out?

I'm prone to the occasional hyperbole lt! I don't think he lacks physicality if you look at his general.game he has strong tackling and carrying (I suspect you're just focusing on when he tried to hold.de allende for a maul and lost metres rather than a strict tackle) and he looks good in the lineout. He's been better than wilson albeit out of position.

I see games like Japan as a.good way to blood younger players without too much pressure but 1 offs.shouldn't be sink or swim. A good or bad game normally deserves to be taken with a pinch of salt. To properly integrate a player needs a number of game. LCD and dunn have already had this. We know they'll be ok so don't really need to see them again . Keeping the core set of players also allows the newbies an easier ride.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm prone to the occasional hyperbole lt! I don't think he lacks physicality if you look at his general.game he has strong tackling and carrying (I suspect you're just focusing on when he tried to hold.de allende for a maul and lost metres rather than a strict tackle) and he looks good in the lineout. He's been better than wilson albeit out of position.

I guess this is where personal preference comes in to it...as I would disagree with that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:....To properly integrate a player needs a number of game. LCD and dunn have already had this.

When did Dunn play for England?

Also a little frustrated with Wigglesworth being on the bench. Surely this is an opportunity to have a look at another SH?

No Te'o in the team for this game. d he have a bad game last week?

Did he get injured?

lostinwales wrote:Also a little frustrated with Wigglesworth being on the bench. Surely this is an opportunity to have a look at another SH?

With Robson injured and Wiggy named in squad ahead of Spencer was never going to happen.

Jones wanted to get England over to Japan before the Cup but just couldn't find the time.

It is understood the Rugby Football Union explored the possibility of taking one of next year’s World Cup warm-up matches to Japan while Jones also wanted to hold a training camp there but could not find a suitable window around domestic fixtures. It is also believed England attempted to move one of last summer’s Tests in South Africa to Japan but none of the three host cities were willing to agree.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/nov/14/eddie-jones-japan-sushi-night-rugby-union

This has come a glorified reserves fixture now. Noone can truly prove themselves. You're not proving yourself against top tier internationals and you're not proving your ability to play within the England first team.

With the exception of the real outsiders in the team (e.g. Ted Hill), the best anyone playing can do is to not play yourself out of contention.

My mistake rugby fan. Thought dunn had picked up a recent run from the bench. It was just that run of being called up I must have been thinking of.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't get people's hatred of shields. I understand after his head.knock in resting him but I'd be mightily surprised now to see him at 6 next week. Excited to see ted hill as well. Hope he gets at least 30 min.

Hatred is pretty strong for most of his detractors.

For me I was not a fan of the way he was brought into the set up, while what I have seen of him for Wasps and England has been pretty average. I believe he is some way short of the quality needed. He seems slow, not especially physical and lacking any area to his game that makes me nor in appreciation excluding the imposing beard.

I agree. Of the England forwards on Saturday he was the least visible. I have never seen him do anything beyond average club players standard for Wasps or England.

Crazy. He was great up until the head knock. And o think that raises more questions on whether thresholds of head knocks work for performance of players even of it is deemed medically appropriate.

Lawes and Nowell are the only question marks for me. Lawes at 6 is a waste weve repeatedly tried but Jones seems to be addicted to. Nowell at 13 is interesting but also feels a waste as i cant see him ever playing there again.

Its a good team I like it lowozski (top player) and Nowell will open up midfield for Ashton to have a field day. We will see Wilson being a devil at the breakdown and Mercer will have the freedom to pop up all over the place.

Referencing shields I agree he shouldn't have been parachuted in and I prefer Wilson but it was obvious what he will bring any backrow he plays for. He was all over the park first half and contributed to a very physically aggressive and suffocating defence. He's good in the air and hits hard. I think he's quicker than he looks and is a big strong lad. Will be useful to us for a few years. I can't wait to see him operate with the Willis brothers in the wasps backrow. They will be some players when they are older.

robbo277 wrote:This has come a glorified reserves fixture now. Noone can truly prove themselves. You're not proving yourself against top tier internationals and you're not proving your ability to play within the England first team.

With the exception of the real outsiders in the team (e.g. Ted Hill), the best anyone playing can do is to not play yourself out of contention.

Agree with that. Feel for Ford. Lost his shirt after a tough summer following a miserable season. Gets some form back now with Murphy in charge and he gets odd minutes at the end of games and then a makeshift team with three locks and only one centre. If he drags the disjointed team to a victory then it'll be written off as the expected victory.

A lot of the more established players currently not first choice will be thinking similar.

I am likely to be going to this (provided Royal Mail does its thing...). A friend has won tickets in a competition through work but can't go - they *should* arrive at the office tomorrow...

It'll be my first International Match. Super excited!

Enjoy!

formerly known as Sam wrote:

robbo277 wrote:This has come a glorified reserves fixture now. Noone can truly prove themselves. You're not proving yourself against top tier internationals and you're not proving your ability to play within the England first team.

With the exception of the real outsiders in the team (e.g. Ted Hill), the best anyone playing can do is to not play yourself out of contention.

Agree with that. Feel for Ford. Lost his shirt after a tough summer following a miserable season. Gets some form back now with Murphy in charge and he gets odd minutes at the end of games and then a makeshift team with three locks and only one centre. If he drags the disjointed team to a victory then it'll be written off as the expected victory.

A lot of the more established players currently not first choice will be thinking similar.

A bad game for Ford will hear calls for Cipriani reignited. A good game and "meh, it's only Japan" will be the likely reaction. If you're going to start Ford and want to try Nowell at 13, you should at least be doing it with Youngs and Te'o at 9 and 12 so you can have some continuity at least, so at least you can be looking at partnerships.

It will be fun to watch as a standalone game, like the end of season Barbarians game, but won't really mean all that much in the wider scheme of things.

I agree that these games are a bit of a banana skin.
I would like to think that England wont be caught with their pants down, but there is enough experience on the bench to bring on if its needed in - Hartley, Sinkler, Farrell, Wiggy, Slade.
I also don't think that Eddie would underestimate Japan.
I am not sure how much of this Japanese side is the team that turned over the Saffas in 2015 but you'd still expect them to be well disciplined and they didn't have a bad showing against the ABs recently.

So does no one see the benefit of playing and preparing for the game the way they have. Still using the slightly wider squad. Most of the bench swapping with starting 15 and vice versa. Pretty much what we will have to do for the world cup isn't it?
With granted a large rest period.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So does no one see the benefit of playing and preparing for the game the way they have. Still using the slightly wider squad. Most of the bench swapping with starting 15 and vice versa. Pretty much what we will have to do for the world cup isn't it?
With granted a large rest period.

If we'd played it on a Wednesday then maybe there would be more merit. Although not sure how much prep we need to do on this, considering our only short turnaround is USA.

I'm all for covering all angles.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm prone to the occasional hyperbole lt! I don't think he lacks physicality if you look at his general.game he has strong tackling and carrying (I suspect you're just focusing on when he tried to hold.de allende for a maul and lost metres rather than a strict tackle) and he looks good in the lineout. He's been better than wilson albeit out of position.

I guess this is where personal preference comes in to it...as I would disagree with that.

I don't think many would agree that Shields has played better than Wilson. Wilson was motm against SA and the arguably the 2nd best forward against NZ. Shields has been steady but not great, I'm not overly convinced yet.

I have never been a fan pf whole sale changes especially for a game like this against Japan.

It show's disrespect in my view against Japan. England should be going out to win ( every game ) with there best team they have. Make one or two changes but keep the bulk of the team together to get game time together.

If England win and win well then every one can say Eddie got it right. But if it turns out like last week against the Abs, Eddie will get hammered by the fans for being complacent against a team like Japan.

Thinking about the RWC, I can see Eddie selecting just 5 specialist back rowers in his squad, as he will assume that he can cover that if needed from the second row - which of course he is doing tomorrow with Lawes.

This could mean that Shields, Wilson and Robshaw are fighting for just one spot (more likely two but ...). Shields is an Eddie favourite, Wilson is perhaps the more flexible and Robshaw experienced and the best heavy conditions player of the 3. By dint of being in teh squad, followed by 2 high profile games in Europe Wilson and Shields are in the prime position, but as he showed in T3 in the summer never wise to write off Robshaw.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So does no one see the benefit of playing and preparing for the game the way they have. Still using the slightly wider squad. Most of the bench swapping with starting 15 and vice versa. Pretty much what we will have to do for the world cup isn't it?

If this was a settled squad, thing is though he is also trying out new things, but how does he assess whether they have worked.

Cokanasiga is making his debut and Mercer his first start and Nowell his first appearance at 13. To facilitate this and the use of a lock at 6,  Lozowski and Wilson are arguably out of position. This will have an impact on the attacking structures, but more so on the defensive ones.

LondonTiger wrote:Thinking about the RWC, I can see Eddie selecting just 5 specialist back rowers in his squad, as he will assume that he can cover that if needed from the second row - which of course he is doing tomorrow with Lawes.

This could mean that Shields, Wilson and Robshaw are fighting for just one spot (more likely two but ...). Shields is an Eddie favourite, Wilson is perhaps the more flexible and Robshaw experienced and the best heavy conditions player of the 3. By dint of being in teh squad, followed by 2 high profile games in Europe Wilson and Shields are in the prime position, but as he showed in T3 in the summer never wise to write off Robshaw.

Previously I would have agreed...however even as a Robshaw fan im now inclined to say the younger lads offer more (as long as they stay fit).

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So does no one see the benefit of playing and preparing for the game the way they have. Still using the slightly wider squad. Most of the bench swapping with starting 15 and vice versa. Pretty much what we will have to do for the world cup isn't it?

If this was a settled squad, thing is though he is also trying out new things, but how does he assess whether they have worked.

Cokanasiga is making his debut and Mercer his first start and Nowell his first appearance at 13. To facilitate this and the use of a lock at 6,  Lozowski and Wilson are arguably out of position. This will have an impact on the attacking structures, but more so on the defensive ones.

Its his weakest of the 3 back row positions I would say for sure. But it depends how Eddie wants his 7 to play...like Haskell?

Yeah I take any opinion of stuart barnes especially around a forward with a large punch of salt sarge.
Perhaps lt but I think jones views these guys as part of the squad he's likely to take to the world cup. He knows who he wants to start it's more about saying you are going to be thrown in like this there get used to it.

EJ has pretty much said said he knows 27 of the 31 man squad he wants. Injuries will inevitably change that. As much as I hate Lawes/Itoje/Launchbury in the backrow, it is easier to to throw one of them in there than throw a Shields or Wilson into the second row, decent as they may be at club level in an amergency. Billy Vunipola is the nailed on no 8 but like Manu I cannot see him staying fit, so I think the likes of Wilson has a great chance of getting into the squad. Shields is antoher Robshaw - a 7 out of 10 every game. Issue is you only need 1 of those - so I see a straight shoot out between Robshaw, Wilson and Shields for that position.

From those jones comments it also suggests ted hill may be considered as 6 competition. You also have Clifford who was simply brilliant between injuries. Another like Tuilagi who needs some luck.

Surely Robshaw's days are numbered? I would even go as far as saying England look better without Hughes. Our back row has been good.

It is always about getting the right balance. What Robshaw has always offered is the ability to get a balanced back row by having him on the pitch. Doesn't mean you can't have a balanced pack without him.

Nice try....the big lad on the wing playing a nice part.

All Japan since Care’s try. Surprised there isn’t an English player in the bin.

Yeah totally.

England being pretty rubbish. George in the bin and Japan in the lead.

England taken Japan for granted in this game, and being made to look fools for it. Great try from England but a lovely try from Japan.

Sir Clive said England need to score 8 tries today. Not looking lightly at the moment.

England are looking rubbish at the moment, Japan well deserve their leed.