England vs Australia - 4th Quilter International

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Date: Saturday 24th November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Jaco Peyper (SA)
Assistant 1:  Glen Jackson (NZ)
Assistant 2:  Alexandre Ruiz (Fr)
TMO:            Marius Jonker (SA)




Form


17th November England 35-15 Japan
10th November England 15-16 New Zealand
03rd November England 12-11 South Africa

17th November Italy 7-26 Australia 
10th November Wales 9-6 Australia
27th October Australia 20-37 New Zealand




Teams


England

Starting XV:
15. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 24 caps), 14. Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 1 cap), 13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 16 caps), 12. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 15 caps), 11. Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 39 caps), 10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 64 caps) co-captain, 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 79 caps), 1. Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps), 2. Jamie George (Saracens, 31 caps), 3. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 16 caps), 4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 25 caps), 5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 67 caps), 6. Brad Shields (Wasps, 4 caps), 7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 8 caps), 8. Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 7 caps).

Finishers:
16. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 96 caps) co-captain, 17. Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps), 18. Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 14 caps), 19. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 9 caps), 20. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 17 caps), 21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 32 caps), 22. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps), 23. Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps).


Australia


TBC

Will Farrell get pulled up about that tackle?

Clive loves Farrell but I’m not seeing it.

Did anyone have rainbow laces on?

Underhill said that were uncomfortable and too long, don’t blame him to be honest, why risk your place in the team for some laces.

TightHEAD wrote:Did anyone have rainbow laces on?

Underhill said that were uncomfortable and too long, don’t blame him to be honest, why risk your place in the team for some laces.

On behalf of Pie and the rest of us, a little light music for you, TH ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk

I’d rather the Gallagher Prem supported cancer charity’s but yes I’ll let it go in the interest of debate and the good nature of this thread.

Finding decent coverage of the England Women's games is not always easy but I find the games enjoyable to watch

lostinwales wrote:Finding decent coverage of the England Women's games is not always easy but I find the games enjoyable to watch

I find the national leagues enjoyable to watch too, but that doesn’t get live coverage or anything from the bbc!

Lol just read page 4. Looking forwards to them all admitting they're wrong.

Oh got to a point I've been told cokanasiga isn't worth it. Wonder what happens next.
Or to be fair was it give gus a chance quote?

it's going to be interesting when Watson gets back, Cockanasiga looks like the player we have been missing, pace, power, decent defence, can catch a high ball (Elliot D. please note) and intelligent play (usually, he should have passed to Slade today who would have strolled in). If Manu stays fit that is one hell of a backline.

I don't get this criticism of Farrell for missed tackles, his job is to rush out of the line to try and contain the opposition into playing it tight, he is expected to miss tackles, jut as long as he slows down the ball going wide. Someone always steps into his place to cover his slot in the advancing line. Is this too hard to understand for some people. Saracens do it all the time, so people should be used to it.

Itoje needs to meditate a bit before the game, he starts off every game to hot headed and gives away a couple of penalties each time.

Moon actually looks a complete international prop, if everyone is fit I would have him at no. 2 ahead of Genge who still has a lot to learn about international rugby

Sinckler was something else today. Superb.

Once Itoje settled down, he showed that he and Lawes are as good as any other lock pairing in the world at the moment, they compliment each other so well.

Wilson is my English player of the AIs, steady, uncompromising, hard working and never takes a step backwards, despite Sheilds having a very good game today, I would play him at 6 when Billy is back with shields on the bench.

I also thought that once again it showed that when Hartley is not starting, we lack leadership and go off the boil too easily, George is a good player, probably more skilled in some ways than Hartley but he doesn't offer enough to make up for the leadership that Hartley offers. Great finisher though.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
I don't get this criticism of Farrell for missed tackles, his job is to rush out of the line to try and contain the opposition into playing it tight, he is expected to miss tackles, jut as long as he slows down the ball going wide. Someone always steps into his place to cover his slot in the advancing line. Is this too hard to understand for some people.

.

Well once again he got away with it, point being that because he didnt ‘learn’ his lesson and instead ‘celebrated’ what he’d done v SA, he gets to repeat it shortly after, and Folau skinned him on one of those ‘rush ups to contain’. Folau looked anything but contained. Oppositions have clearly started using what he does.

Looks like the lesson might have to be given out on the biggest stsge next year, for either of his silly methods.

Taylorman wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
I don't get this criticism of Farrell for missed tackles, his job is to rush out of the line to try and contain the opposition into playing it tight, he is expected to miss tackles, jut as long as he slows down the ball going wide. Someone always steps into his place to cover his slot in the advancing line. Is this too hard to understand for some people.

.

Well once again he got away with it, point being that because he didnt ‘learn’ his lesson and instead ‘celebrated’ what he’d done v SA, he gets to repeat it shortly after, and Folau skinned him on one of those ‘rush ups to contain’. Folau looked anything but contained. Oppositions have clearly started using what he does.

Looks like the lesson might have to be given out on the biggest stsge next year, for either of his silly methods.

Mate, he was penalised for it. Stop preaching.

"Well once again he got away with it, point being that because he didnt ‘learn’ his lesson and instead ‘celebrated’ what he’d done v SA, he gets to repeat it shortly after, and Folau skinned him on one of those ‘rush ups to contain’. Folau looked anything but contained. Oppositions have clearly started using what he does.

Looks like the lesson might have to be given out on the biggest stsge next year, for either of his silly methods."

Did you actually look at the result, seems to work for me. Saracens doing the same, seem pretty successful too. Just because he got skinned once, does not mean the practice does not work overall. How many tries have England shipped this Autumn with this tactic?

As an aside, I have just watched the BBC highlights on BBC2, who was that commentator, she was absolutely rubbish. I have noticed it more and more female commentators being pushed into positions where they have no experience and little knowledge. It is just the BBC trying to bring about gender equality and in doing so bringing in inexperienced, un-knowledgable and monotone commentators to make the stats look better, experience and ability disregarded on the grounds of Gender. On Sky they have Maggie Alphonsi, who understands the game and makes good and sensible dialogue to the commentary.

EnglishReign wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
I don't get this criticism of Farrell for missed tackles, his job is to rush out of the line to try and contain the opposition into playing it tight, he is expected to miss tackles, jut as long as he slows down the ball going wide. Someone always steps into his place to cover his slot in the advancing line. Is this too hard to understand for some people.

.

Well once again he got away with it, point being that because he didnt ‘learn’ his lesson and instead ‘celebrated’ what he’d done v SA, he gets to repeat it shortly after, and Folau skinned him on one of those ‘rush ups to contain’. Folau looked anything but contained. Oppositions have clearly started using what he does.

Looks like the lesson might have to be given out on the biggest stsge next year, for either of his silly methods.

Mate, he was penalised for it. Stop preaching.

Do you think that after the ref/tmo saved them a couple of weeks ago, they are starting to run a bit scared of what might happen next Autumn?

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
I don't get this criticism of Farrell for missed tackles, his job is to rush out of the line to try and contain the opposition into playing it tight, he is expected to miss tackles, jut as long as he slows down the ball going wide. Someone always steps into his place to cover his slot in the advancing line. Is this too hard to understand for some people.

.

Well once again he got away with it, point being that because he didnt ‘learn’ his lesson and instead ‘celebrated’ what he’d done v SA, he gets to repeat it shortly after, and Folau skinned him on one of those ‘rush ups to contain’. Folau looked anything but contained. Oppositions have clearly started using what he does.

Looks like the lesson might have to be given out on the biggest stsge next year, for either of his silly methods.

Mate, he was penalised for it. Stop preaching.

Do you think that after the ref/tmo saved them a couple of weeks ago, they are starting to run a bit scared of what might happen next Autumn?

I dont really care, I think his antics look silly and one day it’ll cost him, and them. It probably has already. ABs for instance will do their homework on Farrell and will target that area more fully now it seems to be entrenched in his repertroire. Beating defences will be on top of the analysis agenda because once again northern sides find their niche in reverting to type... heavily defensive mindsets, hogging the ball etc etc blah blah. Itll be left to whats left of SH sides to open the game up...yet again.

To be fair Taylorman, you do seem to care a bit too much.

Good end to the year for England - very pleased with today’s result. Should give them a bit of momentum going into 2019.

Farrell living on the edge again, and it could have been a YC and penalty try. Kicking also not as good as it could be but generally an excellent match.

Folau and Daly's tries both excellent. Cokanasiga looks like a keeper too. I suspect Nowell will miss out based on the last two games. Watson will also find it hard to get back into the starting line out, although his ability to play FB will get him back in the wider squad if he gets back to form post injury.

Funiest moment from the highlights was Haylett-Petty just bouncing off Cokanasiga before his try.

kyle sinckler. what a beast and rare for a prop to get mom

And nice to see us being on the right side of the penalty count for once (6 to 10) Can't remember the last time that happened.

Yes, Farrell pushing his luck to say the least!

Sinckler was immense, love watching him play in an England shirt. Also agree about Cockanasiga - he’s turned up at just the right time!

Did Farrell actually go in for the tackle, or did he actually slip before the tackle could be made?

Thought England was going to lose the game when it went 13 -13 at half time.

England showed that they can come out in the second half ( making it hard for themselves) and win the game.

Well played England a great win.

Sinckler is nuts and shouldn’t be encouraged

majesticimperialman wrote:Did Farrell actually go in for the tackle, or did he actually slip before the tackle could be made?

Thought England was going to lose the game when it went 13 -13 at half time.

England showed that they can come out in the second half ( making it hard for themselves) and win the game.

Well played England a great win.

It was ambiguous - although we have been there before. And it did save a certain try.

The Ref made some strange calls today, very reluctant to go to the Tmo for anything

Still hard to judge England at times we looked awsome, and other times I think Italy would score tries

TightHEAD wrote:Sinckler is nuts and shouldn’t be encouraged

Just wait until Genge is back and they are playing in tandem.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Sinckler is nuts and shouldn’t be encouraged

Just wait until Genge is back and they are playing in tandem.

Plus Billy, Cokanasinga, Teo, and the permanently injured one. Not subtle. Not subtle at all..

stub wrote:To be fair Taylorman, you do seem to care a bit too much.

Only as far as what we’ll do with him. It seems hes one of those players, and England certainly are one of those teams, that invest an unhealthy percentage of lean on the one player. Barrett is certainly that for us now, which is why many kiwis dont like the situation. Far too much responsibility on a plan based around one, or two players.

So get Farrell, and you probably get England. Not hard to work out. Farrell, unlike Barrett is also heavily ego driven so theyre also easier to turn to mush.

Well England were 1 tmo call away from a SANZAR slam. Good prediction on my part, good November for England. 6 nations is going to be epic.

Blimey Taylor, you really have given this a lot a lot of thought.

Here’s hoping that Owen (and his rare ego) can survive the mushing. ;-)

You were close to be fair Collaspe.

Well I missed the game. I said Sinkler needed to really impose himself on the game physically...glad to see from the comments that he seemed to. Now to play like that consistently.

Glad Coka had a good game aswell.

Ill be interested to see the highlights.

Taylorman wrote:

stub wrote:To be fair Taylorman, you do seem to care a bit too much.

Only as far as what we’ll do with him. It seems hes one of those players, and England certainly are one of those teams, that invest an unhealthy percentage of lean on the one player. Barrett is certainly that for us now, which is why many kiwis dont like the situation. Far too much responsibility on a plan based around one, or two players.

So get Farrell, and you probably get England. Not hard to work out. Farrell, unlike Barrett is also heavily ego driven so theyre also easier to turn to mush.

The funny thing is with Farrell is that it is not that easy to quantify what he does bring to England. He's a good kicker and reasonable passer but he's not that fast. He's tall but not especially powerful. He is durable. His defense is adequate. He isn't especially clever. He's an OK captain but not as good as Hartley.

It is easy to say all that and yet he's right at the center of everything we do.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
Wilson is my English player of the AIs, steady, uncompromising, hard working and never takes a step backwards, despite Sheilds having a very good game today, I would play him at 6 when Billy is back with shields on the bench.

.

Glad to see it recognised WPI. Mark has been playing like that week in week out for us for many years now....and its great to see that he is able to take it up to the next level.

If Eddie Jones is looking for a 12...theres a young lad up here he might want to take a look at as well….

Indeed GF - gutting that we lost both Johnny and big Joe by getting relegated not long after they graduated from the LI academy ...

The issue with Farrell is not the leaguie shoulder though that will cost us at some point, nor is it his rush defence which is actually a massive plus. No the issue is his actual ability as a play making 10.
His play options are often far too regimented and his kicking away of priceless attacking ball is criminal.

kingelderfield wrote:The issue with Farrell is not the leaguie shoulder though that will cost us at some point, nor is it his rush defence which is actually a massive plus. No the issue is his actual ability as a play making 10.
His play options are often far too regimented and his kicking away of priceless attacking ball is criminal.

Yes hes an enigma. Sounds as if he’ll be very key to Englands three knockout attempts. As Wilko was.

Taylorman wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:The issue with Farrell is not the leaguie shoulder though that will cost us at some point, nor is it his rush defence which is actually a massive plus. No the issue is his actual ability as a play making 10.
His play options are often far too regimented and his kicking away of priceless attacking ball is criminal.

Yes hes an enigma. Sounds as if he’ll be very key to Englands three knockout attempts. As Wilko was.

The big difference is that England had Greenwood alongside Wilko to call attacks. A player we have yet to properly replace.

All in all a really good AI window.

Started slowly and maybe got some luck against SA (though as Pollard showed yesterday he would probably have missed the kick)

So close against NZ.

An ultimately decent run out against Japan by largely 3rd and 4th choice players.

And finally a good win over Australia. They may be pretty crapright now, but still a side that can be hard to beat.


Will be interesting to see who is fit come February.

I was wandering just how many England players are actually nailed on as starters for the 6ns? as Robshaw still got a place in the squad? what a bout Maco v Billy v, Antony Watson, Jamie Joseph. Will they have a chance to play for (ENGLAND AGAIN)

Who is second choice Scrum Half? Care/Wigglesworth?

Is this squad of players ( the squad) for the 6ns/world cup?






















0

Assuming fitness we could see the following come Ireland:

Mako, George, Sinckler, Launchbury, Itoje, Wilson/Shields, Underhill, Viliame, Youngs, Farrell, Cokanasiga, Te'o, Slade/Manu, May, Daly

Hartley, Genge, Williams, Lawes, Shields/Wilson, Robson, Ford, Watson

That looks a great team LT.

Took me a while to work out our number 8 though!

Daly is an issue. He's a hell of a player and must be in the side....but, he's not a FB. He just can't take a high ball (unless it's on the deck??). I dislike constant changing but I'd like to see him at 13 alongside a lump like Te'o or Manu. Slade just doesn't really look anything special in the shirt.

I'm also not convinced with an Itoje/Launchbury lock pairing. Fantastic around the park, but could be a real issue in the line out.

TBH I can see EJ going Itoje/Kruis, just so long as he then makes a decision between L&L rather than omitting a BRer.

It seemed yesterday as if May was tasked with fielding high balls. I think I saw him take 3 high up in the air, on both sides of the pitch plus one that even with his speed was too short for him to get to and landed between forwards.

stub wrote:That looks a great team LT.

Took me a while to work out our number 8 though!

Aye, just trying to prepare for the "name change" that apparently is coming.

Mako, Genge, (Cole)
Launchbury, Cruise, Isiekwe
Billy, Simmonds, Robshaw
Robson (Care)
(Cipriani)
Joseph
Nowell, Ashton
Watson

All the above players will challenge when back from injury (ignore the bracketed available alternate options)

For me there is still many positions and options to be resolved and these will obviously be determined by Jones's selections and player availability.

Captain - Hartley if he makes it, but not Farrell who is not an on field leader. I would definitely have Launchbury or Itoje, depending on who is selected. Farrell would be a mistake.

Flyhalf - I know the dye is cast as far as Jones is concerned, but surely the game yesterday proved that we are far too profligate in our possession conversation rate with Farrell at 10. How we came to be 13 all after our dominance of a very lack luster Ozy is really worrying.
Don't let the 2nd half cloud perceptions.
I understand all 10 options have weaknesses, but if its not going to be Cipriani then it will have to be Ford with Farrell at 12.
Personally with the possession dominance we exerted and should have going forward, then I would chose Cipriani with Farrell which simply equates to getting your best players on the field.
Fullback is still up for grabs and maybe Watson will challenge on his return.

Obviously many other area's are still to be nailed down; front and back rows and centre's.......

Overall our depth of talent is amazing and offers us tremendous potential for improvement, however as the land lies injuries will continue to be our biggest opponent and so the likes of Ireland and NZ will continue to have the preparation and organisational upper-hand.

Ultimately, not to push on from here will mean Jones has failed.

Lets hope for good fortune on the injuries for both the 6N and WC as to be able to select from a full squad would be wonderful.

King's selection;

Mako, George, Sinckler
Itoje, Lawes
Simmonds, Billy, Underhill
Youngs, Cipriani
May, Te'o, Slade, Cokanasiga
Watson

Tom Fordyce article;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46332344

I agree with a lot of what Tom Fordyce says, but I then wonder which games he is watching when I read things like this:

Too often England can look too one-dimensional, over-reliant on one-up ball carriers, imprecise when opportunities open up in attack. They snatch at some half-chances and yet equally play safe when the best sides in the world make happy hay.

It there is one thing England have done well this Autumn is to make space out wide, they have not always used it well, but they have made it. 2 tries against the AB, 4 against Japan and 4 against Australia does not look like a side reliant on one up ball carriers, 7 tries by backs, 3 by forwards.

A convincing win by the end. But that 1st half was a bit amateur night – too many technical mistakes, and Aus could have had 4 tries on another day. BR was largely good, still think Shields is a bit meh – can see Robshaw back. The centres are a problem still, hoping JJ gets back some day, and OF back to 12. Cokanasiga looking decent but still raw – how he missed the sitter pass to Slade was remarkable. Not too worried with the OF tackle – the 2 guys ran into each other – could have been a pen try but OF did his job and cast enough doubt in the refs mind. Let’s face it was a bang on try without his intervention.

As for the beeb - they don't do England RU so they're not to blame for lack of knowledge there. Best they keep to following Wales, with a smattering of Scotland.

Lawes currently (although arguably) our best forward, but must start at lock. I can see Itoje starting on the bench with a Lawes/ Launchbury 2nd row, assuming Launchbury hits form.

Wilson must be in 1st place for 6 and Underhill at 7. Underhill was quiet vs Australia but that is just how some games play out. The only question for me over the back row is who is best to balance out vunipola Junior at 8, but it will be hard for Robshaw to break back into a team he has done so much to hold together over the last few years.

George/Hartley combo at 2 works but the players have flipped around.

Sinckler is now a fixture (as long as he keeps form and doesn't get injured...) Other prop resources look good.

Out in the backs the wings seem to work well with May/Ickle Joe and Daly demands to be shoehorned in somewhere. Centres are tricky but starting to settle down.

Which leaves the biggest headache. SH and Farrell/FH.
Youngs is playing well at SH, although he seems to have stopped running with the ball at all. Wigglesworth is OK and won't let us down, and Care is all but out of the picture. We need a backup SH who can start if Youngs is injured, and who can add some threat. We also need to find a way to shoehorn Farrell into the side because he adds so much, but also find a way to cover for his deficiencies.

It has been a successful Autumn series, and in hindsight the AB result was probably the best moving forward. A 'moral' victory that tells us we can do it, without the baggage that would have come with an actual win. The expectations over the next few months had we actually won could easily stifle development and be too much of a weight on a side that is developing quickly.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:A convincing win by the end. But that 1st half was a bit amateur night – too many technical mistakes, and Aus could have had 4 tries on another day.  BR was largely good, still think Shields is a bit meh – can see Robshaw back. The centres are a problem still, hoping JJ gets back some day, and OF back to 12. Cokanasiga looking decent but still raw – how he missed the sitter pass to Slade was remarkable. Not too worried with the OF tackle – the 2 guys ran into each other – could have been a pen try but OF did his job and cast enough doubt in the refs mind. Let’s face it was a bang on try without his intervention.

Look at the OF 'intervention' another way. The risk was a PT and YC. We could have weathered the YC although starting the second half behind would not have been ideal, but had he not 'got in the way' it was a certain try and 7 points. It was worth the risk

The other negative side effect is the exposure he gets for doing the same thing in multiple games. It becomes a story. The annoying thing vs SA is that the Boks were guilty of worse but it is all forgotten because Farrell is the story.