England vs Australia - 4th Quilter International

First topic message reminder :

Date: Saturday 24th November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Jaco Peyper (SA)
Assistant 1:  Glen Jackson (NZ)
Assistant 2:  Alexandre Ruiz (Fr)
TMO:            Marius Jonker (SA)




Form


17th November England 35-15 Japan
10th November England 15-16 New Zealand
03rd November England 12-11 South Africa

17th November Italy 7-26 Australia 
10th November Wales 9-6 Australia
27th October Australia 20-37 New Zealand




Teams


England

Starting XV:
15. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 24 caps), 14. Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 1 cap), 13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 16 caps), 12. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 15 caps), 11. Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 39 caps), 10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 64 caps) co-captain, 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 79 caps), 1. Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps), 2. Jamie George (Saracens, 31 caps), 3. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 16 caps), 4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 25 caps), 5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 67 caps), 6. Brad Shields (Wasps, 4 caps), 7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 8 caps), 8. Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 7 caps).

Finishers:
16. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 96 caps) co-captain, 17. Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps), 18. Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 14 caps), 19. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 9 caps), 20. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 17 caps), 21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 32 caps), 22. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps), 23. Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps).


Australia


TBC

Yup there was definitely an easier score on earlier in the run. Austin Healey was convinced it was a 45m pass which was rather amusing

Yeah but then he thinks he is 6ft5 tall.

Speaking of which there's the very outside chance mallinder recovers before the world cup. Been in the squad but not sure whether jones sees him as a full back or what he was asked to work on.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Speaking of which there's the very outside chance mallinder recovers before the world cup. Been in the squad but not sure whether jones sees him as a full back or what he was asked to work on.

Pretty sure I read that they did view him as a FB, hence why he was asking Saints to play him there. However even if he recovers too little time to press his case.

robbo277 wrote:

compelling and rich wrote:full back and centre partnership is the only worry. we have been decimated with injuries and still done well. the squad depth in the pack can handle even a big injury crisis, although if we have we want to win the world cup i think billy needs to be fit.

we have more than enough cover on the wings and plenty who can play ten. scrum half cover is a worry with cares form and i think wigglesworth is too slow

Centre we have a lot of options and it's about trying to get the blend right. We've had plenty of guys prove they can play. Full back is a slightly different proposition though.

Midfield options:

Farrell at 10 with Te'o at 12 and Joseph/Slade/Manu at 13
OR
Ford/Farrell at 10/12 with Joseph/Slade/Te'o/Manu at 13

A few pundits on twitter have been vocal about the midfield that finished the Australia game (Ford/Farrell/Manu) and stated that it's something Jones has probably been looking forward to a while. If Tuilagi stays fit, could we see that for the fist Six Nations game?

Its not impossible .... but given he only got a minor cameo once the game was done there doesnt seem to be that strong a suggestion to me that Jones is desperate to see him in the starting XV. That said he does seem to have always pushed him up the queue whenever hes been half fit and clearly remember the force he was in his early career.
Those do seem to be the 4 centers England are settled on though and it does give a lot of flexibility and options, with Lowzo Lozo that guy from Saracens as a reserve. Theres really a lot of combinations you can make from those players, with Te'o Slade and Manu being able to play 12 or 13.
The only player form that list I see as near guaranteed a starting shirt somewhere is Farrell, but that could equally be at 10 or 12.

Theres then questions on whether they pick sides to win in typical early 6 nations winter conditions, or with an eye to the (hopefully) manicured pitches of the world cup.

The problem with the centres is that they don't play there for their club or are injured or not pulling up trees.

12's
Farrell...or is he now Jones first choice 10
T'eo - Needs to stay fit.
Slade? - Floated between 10-12-13 but now at both club and country is seen as a 13.

Others
Hill - Is he even playing much for Exeter?
Sam James - Is he more a 13?
Williams - One for after the world cup.
Any other 12's..

13's
Slade - Is he making that position his own..? Im not sure he is
Daly - Where to start with this one?
Marchant - ??
Joseph - Is he ever fit?
Manu - Is he ever fit?

GeordieFalcon wrote:The problem with the centres is that they don't play there for their club or are injured or not pulling up trees.

12's
Farrell...or is he now Jones first choice 10
T'eo - Needs to stay fit.
Slade? - Floated between 10-12-13 but now at both club and country is seen as a 13.

Others
Hill - Is he even playing much for Exeter?
Sam James - Is he more a 13?
Williams - One for after the world cup.
Any other 12's..

13's
Slade - Is he making that position his own..? Im not sure he is
Daly - Where to start with this one?
Marchant - ??
Joseph - Is he ever fit?
Manu - Is he ever fit?

Who are Bath playing on the blindside these days? Probably time to parachute them in at 12.

robbo277 wrote:
Who are Bath playing on the blindside these days? Probably time to parachute them in at 12.

Need to manage the egos and direction of the rest of the team though if we do that, can't have them upsetting the superstar 12.

That bloke could have been an amazing 6.

No 7&1/2 wrote:That bloke could have been an amazing 6.

Yep, but he clearly didn't have the desire to stick with it through the hard times/transition and do it.

Can't blame him going with the family choice. Seeing that a few times recently.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can't blame him going with the family choice. Seeing that a few times recently.

To be fair, I agree and don't really have any issue with him - more with those that rushed him in. And fully understand people prioritising family life. I just find his latest utterances odd. Normally you hear one persons perspective and have some sympathy for them, then hear the other persons and have some sympathy for them - and realise that they each have their own view but the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. When I hear Burgess' views I find my sympathy for him diminished...

That said, anyone still tweeting him really needs to get a life!

Yeah. It'll be ten ears from now when Lancaster and the rest are writing books when we'll find out details. No reason to give them away free it seems!

Marchant is fit and playing regularly for Quins. Seems to be enjoying playing alongside Tapuai or Saili, and has been making decent breaks. Clearly not quite enough to be in Eddie's plans at the moment, but if he is fit come the 6N, who knows? Certainly an exceptional reader of space.

I thought Marchant was the natural successor to Joseph when he was always injured, but for whatever reason that doesn't seem to have materialised.

Marchant was called up briefly for the AIs (cover for someone). Perhaps just long enough to get to the training group have his photo taken then return home.

I guess...its Joseph, Manu and Slade...

ANd can I just add...nice to see Mark Wilson voted Englands Player of the AI's....fully deserved...

Do you reckon he stands a chance of keeping the 8 jersey?

Saw a good stat though and granted one of the few players to play every min of ais bur wilson was first to a ruck more often then any other. And Itoje hit more rucks than any other.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Saw a good stat though and granted one of the few players to play every min of ais bur wilson was first to a ruck more often then any other. And Itoje hit more rucks than any other.

I think this falls into the 'Lies, damn lies and statistics' category, as every other forward has been rotated in or out at some point. So just out of pure minutes on the pitch they should have been top of the stats. Don't mean to diminish their performances in anyway - particularly Wilson - but I think needs to be taken with some caution.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do you reckon he stands a chance of keeping the 8 jersey?

Probably not if Billy and Mercer get fit / come good, and theres Hughes also.

However he's proved he's a very effective back row player at this level against the best. So who knows.

Yes I agree sharkey.
Lacks a bit of expertise in the lineout though gf?Don't remember him being used that often.

Sharkey06 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Saw a good stat though and granted one of the few players to play every min of ais bur wilson was first to a ruck more often then any other. And Itoje hit more rucks than any other.

I think this falls into the 'Lies, damn lies and statistics' category, as every other forward has been rotated in or out at some point.  So just out of pure minutes on the pitch they should have been top of the stats.  Don't mean to diminish their performances in anyway - particularly Wilson - but I think needs to be taken with some caution.

But that's a big part of his game Sharkey. Hes not be fancy dan...he's just relentless. He plays hard and physical and non stop for 80 + mins. Same as Will Welch, and now Gary Graham. Its obviously what Dean Richards wants in his back rowers.

Its players like him, Robshaw, Underhill etc that should allow the likes of Billy and Mercer the space to play and cause havoc.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes I agree sharkey.  
Lacks a bit of expertise in the lineout though gf?Don't remember him being used that often.

He hasn't in this series, granted...but he is always an option for us at club level.

I'll look on in interest but I've nailed my colours to flag and indeed flying against popular opinion on here. Shields is the man at 6 now. It's up to the next guys to oust him and I think if fit he'll start the 6 nations.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll look on in interest but I've nailed my colours to flag and indeed flying against popular opinion on here. Shields is the man at 6 now. It's up to the next guys to oust him and I think if fit he'll start the 6 nations.

Before the AIs I would have agreed with you 7&1/2, but if Billy is fit, he will play and if not possibly Hughes, therefore where do fit Wilson in, the only place is at 6 as Underhill seems to have nailed the 7 shirt and EJ likes a proper 7 if one is available. On the performance in the AIs, Wilson has looked a lot better than Shields. Wilson, Underhill, Billy V looks a mighty fine back row.

We don't would be my reply. Jones is looking for a 6 who's above average in the air. Shields lawes possibly v outside chance Clifford. Don't see wilson as that player.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We don't would be my reply. Jones is looking for a 6 who's above average in the air. Shields lawes possibly v outside chance Clifford. Don't see wilson as that player.

Wow you really don't like Wilson do you...to list a player that's barely played for his club over someone whos just got our countries player of the AI's....but everyone s entitled to their opinions.

Clifford is a special player who has been v unlucky with injury. Wilson has shown he's a good player at this level. Wilson has somehow failed to pick up much criticism for hist 15 min spell of penalties that could probably should have seen him sin binned.who voted for it?

Oh sky sports fans. 54 per cent. Yeah when Itoje gets 6 per cent I think I can safely discount that!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Clifford is a special player who has been v unlucky with injury. Wilson has shown he's a good player at this level. Wilson has somehow failed to pick up much criticism for hist 15 min spell of penalties that could probably should have seen him sin binned.who voted for it?

And Wilson is a top player who is extremely consistent and fit and physical (as Jones likes) , and now proven he can take that game to the next level.

Bar he doesn't really offer that main lineout option was under par at 7 and as even you admit ain't going to play 8 if the others are fit.

Ok mate...no bother..

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bar he doesn't really offer that main lineout option

Untrue. He has played second row for Falcons and been main lineout target. Not his fault if he was used just the once against Australia.

There are no certainties n selection, but over and above his performances (which should have impressed all but the registered blind) that Eddie kept him on the field for all 320 minutes (I think) show the value Eddie now places on the Cumbrian.

I fully admit that I do not believe Shields is of the quality needed, thus reinforcing my disquiet over his recruitment. Yet if I see more from the Kiwi I would be supportive of his selection. This does not mean I am blind to his good things nor oblivious to Wilson's shortcomings. Personally I do not feelfWilson is a 7, in fact I would love to see an Underhill, Curry, Vunipola back row, with Wilson on the bench.

Could work. I'd be massively surprised should shields not be starting 6 as I said though. If be very surprised should wilson be in the squad. Like o said I'm in the minority

Our current best back row baring injuries is:

6. Wilson
7. Underhill
8. Vunipola

That trio has everything and a real balanced look to it. Shields is going to be there or there abouts but Wilson brings more imo. Wilson is used as one of Falcons main jumpers, not quite getting the suggestion he's not a aerial presence.

If you trio up Lawes, Itoje and Wilson...thats 3 very good options, can't see many troubling us there.

Man of the series with 54% is quite something, he's really nailed his squad place.

It's why shields has started at 6 every time he's been fit.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's why shields has started at 6 every time he's been fit.

Wilson can cover all back row positions to a higher level than Shields, that's why Shields has stuck at 6 (he's a 6). Wilson's best position is 6, he's a better player than Shields and has proved so in positions that aren't his best.....not bad eh.

Well he was pretty bad at 7. We'll see come ireland. It won't be me moaning!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well he was pretty bad at 7. We'll see come ireland. It won't be me moaning!

That bad he won player of the series.....er ok.

You have some very erm, interesting views sometimes 7.5, but each to their own I guess. More than happy to agree to disagree.

From 7? I seem to remember a pretty regrettable opening. 3 penalties against him. Hey I don't mind the majority being wrong!

No 7&1/2 wrote:From 7? I seem to remember a pretty regrettable opening. 3 penalties against him. Hey I don't mind the majority being wrong!

I think that game was part of the series??

Not really a debate tbh, it is what it is. Wilson was quality and you're the first person I've heard to suggest he wasn't. I think it's more of a predetermined opinion though as you've previously suggested you don't rate him, it can be hide to shake that off.

I understand it's hard to admit you're wrong and lose face, I've been there a few times.

Nah I've said he alright and said he'd be a good squad player. I can't see him displacing vunipola or hughes at 8. Can't see him braking past the incumbent 6 in shields or the returning Robshaw. I didn't see any criticism for his pens. I don't think most noticed though. I don't mind being wrong. Of I ever see him play for England at 6 and excel I'll be first to admit it. May be a wait. Anyhow I'm losing the battle by way of number and it'll be February before I can gently remind you lot.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Could work. I'd be massively surprised should shields not be starting 6 as I said though. If be very surprised should wilson be in the squad. Like o said I'm in the minority

I would not be surprised to see Shields at 6, just disappointed. EJ has decided Shields is (in the words of a departed member) a demigod with near mythical abilities. That he got nowhere near the ABs despite them capping a coach load of back rowers while he was in SR, that his performances for Wasps have been underwhelming and overshadowed by Thomas Young, that his performances so far for England have been a little meh......... none of this matters to Eddie.

I fully expect to see, at some point in the 6Ns, a back row of Lawes, Shields, Hughes, and wait for the wailing with a tingling anticipation.

I fully expect to see, at some point in the 6Ns, a back row of Lawes, Shields, Hughes, and wait for the wailing with a tingling anticipation.

I like gallows humour but unfortunately that could easily become a reality so I don't find that funny at all.

Damn your eyes!

I think you meant "deity" LT

BamBam wrote:I think you meant "deity" LT

Ah yes.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Could work. I'd be massively surprised should shields not be starting 6 as I said though. Id be very surprised should wilson be in the squad. Like o said I'm in the minority

Well if he's not, its Englands loss and the falcons gain.

Plus I hope Shields puts in some shifts like Mark has this last few weeks.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nah I've said he alright and said he'd be a good squad player. I can't see him displacing vunipola or hughes at 8. Can't see him braking past the incumbent 6 in shields or the returning Robshaw.  I didn't see any criticism for his pens. I don't think most noticed though. I don't mind being wrong. Of I ever see him play for England at 6 and excel I'll be first to admit it. May be a wait. Anyhow I'm losing the battle by way of number and it'll be February before I can gently remind you lot.

Mark has past Robshaw now imo