6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

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6 Nations

IRELAND v ENGLAND

Saturday 02 February 2019 16:45 GMT

Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Maybe a little early but I for one can not wait for this fixture. 2nd vs 4th.

The 6 Nations is officially the BEST rugby competition........................In the World.

England starting XV (485 caps)

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 25 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 17 caps), 12 Manu Tuiagi (Leicester Tigers, 27 caps), 11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 65 caps), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 80 caps); 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 51 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens, 32 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 17 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 26 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 27 caps), 6 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 8 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 5 caps), 8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 36 caps).

Finishers (206 caps)

16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps), 17 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 15 caps), 19 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 68 caps), 20 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 18 caps), 21 Dan Robson (Wasps, uncapped), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps), 23 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 42 caps).

Collapse2005 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Most of the world is ruled by Gender Studies idiots who feel they have the world figured out.  Thank God for the lone-wolf boorish bollix, Trump.  Long may he linger.

I would say its probably just Canada that's ruled by a gender studies idiot.

I'm no fan of Trump as he is a total buffoon but there are plenty of more dangerous leaders like socialists Nicolás Maduro of Venezuela or Cristina Kirchner the former president of Argentina who may run again in the next elections. I would also probably marginally prefer Trump to be my president than a far right leader like Jair Bolsonaro of Brazil for example.  

Just over two weeks to the England game. Tick tock.

True Collapse, but they don't have the US military behind them and a very nasty little button to push.

Some very good performances this weekend from an Ireland point of view.

The form of key players like Stockdale, Ringrose, Carbury, Beirne, Best, Chris Farrell, Earls, Conway, Ruddock, Van der Flier etc. so close to the 6N is a great boost.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Most of the world is ruled by Gender Studies idiots who feel they have the world figured out.  Thank God for the lone-wolf boorish bollix, Trump.  Long may he linger.

I would say its probably just Canada that's ruled by a gender studies idiot.

I'm no fan of Trump as he is a total buffoon but there are plenty of more dangerous leaders like socialists Nicolás Maduro of Venezuela or Cristina Kirchner the former president of Argentina who may run again in the next elections. I would also probably marginally prefer Trump to be my president than a far right leader like Jair Bolsonaro of Brazil for example.  

Just over two weeks to the England game. Tick tock.

True Collapse, but they don't have the US military behind them and a very nasty little button to push.

Agreed.

rodders wrote:Some very good performances this weekend from an Ireland point of view.

The form of key players like Stockdale, Ringrose, Carbury, Beirne, Best, Chris Farrell, Earls, Conway, Ruddock, Van der Flier etc. so close to the 6N is a great boost.

Stockdale was next level. Looks like he is just going to keep scoring tries. If he keeps it up he will be hitting Dave Kearney and Fergus McFadden levels.

Beirne does look good too as do all the others you mention. Exciting times alright. This years six nations will be very interesting to see if Ireland can continue on an upward curve after a pretty special 2018.

Dai Young has come out against the salary cap, saying it's hurting the English clubs ability to compete against the Irish sides like Leinster. Mick Cleary in the Telegraph has said the clubs would be better served cutting their numbers to 6, concentrating our International players and therefore creating better teams.

Both are correct.

If there are two otherwise identical players and you gave one International experience and the other none, then your international player would develop to become a better player.

If you can offer 36 players meaningful International experience in a year, you can take 36 players to that next level. You can rely on these test match players to excel at club level.

If you split your 36 players evenly between 4 teams, you are going to have stronger sides than another country splitting their 36 between 12.

To compete, the English clubs either need to source 3x the test match players (competing with the global market) or cut the number of clubs by a factor of 3.

With the clubs already running at a loss, I would question the advisability of the first option. The IRFU and the provinces have struck a very good balance and are producing enviable results. Is it time for the RFU to follow suit?

I should have said I didn't see Connacht play but they have some players too in great form.

Every time I see Tom Farrell play I am impressed, he almost reminds me of O'Driscoll with his ability to accelerate and make line breaks. Can he do it at international level, I think he is pushing hard for a chance.

Another real bolter is O'Toole at Ulster, we are pretty well covered at LH but he has been a real find, I'd be amazed if he wasn't on Schmidts radar.

The back 3 does look like potentially our weakest area so having Stockdale, Conway and Earls on top form is important and if you add the impressive performances from Byrne, Balacoune and ..cough... Dave Kearney, with Rob K to return that is great news as well.

I don't care what the obvious is, but if he keeps giving away silly penalties for slapping balls down and celebrating a knock on like he just won the world up then I think he is better off playing for Sarries instead of England.

TightHEAD wrote:I don't care what the obvious is, but if he keeps giving away silly penalties for slapping balls down and celebrating a knock on like he just won the world up then I think he is better off playing for Sarries instead of England.

That's exactly how I would feel if I was an England fan. Still he is a great player though.

He is, that's why its frustrating because when he broke into the team (not that I'm assuming he breaks in anywhere because of the obvious!!!!!) he just got his head down and let his rugby do the talking, which made him a better player head and shoulders ahead of others in the team.

I want that Itoje back this 6 nations, not the big kid playing for Sarries version.

So basically shut up and know his place.

How can he know his place when he's switching between 4 and 6 so often?

miaow wrote:How can he know his place when he's switching between 4 and 6 so often?

Split the difference and make it 5?

No 7&1/2 wrote:So basically shut up and know his place.

No. Shut up and play good rugby.

Can he play good rugby and still wind everyone up or are they mutually exclusive?

No. He has to do as the bosses tell him. Please ignore SOB who may well be on the pitch at the same time.

TightHEAD wrote:I don't care what the obvious is, but if he keeps giving away silly penalties for slapping balls down and celebrating a knock on like he just won the world up then I think he is better off playing for Sarries instead of England.

He's not the only player who does either of these things though.

I'm obviously not saying he's exempt from criticism because he's black, but let's look at the criticism. Penalties first, I'm looking at Six Nations 2018 stats for Haskell, Hughes, Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw, Simmonds and Underhill, as these were the guys who played in the back 5 of the scrum. I've omitted Armand's 14 minutes against Ireland.

Itoje gave away 7 penalties, Robshaw, Launchbury, Lawes and Simmonds gave away 4. Itoje however played 400 minutes, which no-one else did. If you adjust the oth tallies, Simmonds is on 6.58, Launchbury on 5.73, Lawes on 5.37 and Robshaw on 4.14. Underhill's 1 penalty (leading to a yellow) becomes 5.71, although it's a large extrapolation to get there. All of a sudden, Itoje isn't that much worse than anyone else.

Further analysis shows that Itoje, Launchbury and Lawes all made a similar number of carries (42, 43, 41). Itoje and Lawes both made more metres (79 and 80 vs 43), but Itoje beat more defenders and made more clean breaks than the other two (4 and 2 against 4 and 0 and 2 and 0). Given the nature of the majority of penalties given away being at the breakdown for offences like holding on, it can be argued that Itoje making better carries could have isolated him from his support, leading to penalties against Itoje. This is also likely to be something to do with why Sam Simmonds has a high penalty conceded count.

What is the option here? Either get turned over or give away a penalty. Itoje had a lower turnover conceded stat than others, and when you adjust and when you include turnovers conceded + penalties and adjust it for minutes played, Itoje is mid range.

This to me doesn't suggest to me he is a problem player. The whole area of the team need to step their game up from last year, but suggesting Itoje can go and play for Saracens instead of England without criticising other equally underperforming players seems unjust at best.

Celebrations second - I'm wondering what it is you don't like about this? As it is not detrimental to a team's performance. There are no stats kept on this (as previous, this doesn't impact the game, so it would be unusual to record it) but anecdotally I don't think he's the only player who does this by any stretch. For example, is it any different to George Ford or any other back from indeed any nation rushing in to pat a forward on the head after winning a scrum penalty while the scrums are still standing up? I think Itoje is now "known" for this, so any time he does it is embedded in the memory due to confirmation bias. How he became known for it and others get away with it is I suppose the question.

He hasn't played well for England for a long time.

That is 'obvious' to everyone. well most!

No 7&1/2 wrote:No. He has to do as the bosses tell him. Please ignore SOB who may well be on the pitch at the same time.

Sinatra O'Brien?

He has a beautiful speaking voice. Which I'm.sure you won't hear during the game.

TightHEAD wrote:He hasn't played well for England for a long time.

That is 'obvious' to everyone. well most!

Still not true. He hasn't played as well as he can for England for a while, and some of his games post Lions were poor - for him. But his standards are very high.

It is very natural to measure players against how we think they should play

Good statistical work robbo. Interesting read. As ever, though, stats need context - not all penalties are equal. The manner they were conceded has to also be considered - big difference between holding onto the ball and being pinged for holding on, say, when scrambling back to your own 5m line, than creeping offside trying to charge down a box kick.

Also, in terms of 'attitude' - are you really asking why some people dislike 'celebratin'/real world wumming? Really? People might not criticise George Ford for it (Mike Brown though... ) or whoever else because it's 'prickly' behaviour. The kind of thing you'd expect from a scrum-half with short man syndrome. Or perhaps an Australian, where sledging is institutionalised. People probably pick up on it with Itoje because there's no 'need' for him to do it. But perhaps that's harsh. Perhaps the only real analysis you need to be applying to this is the fact that he's not being subtle enough to wind the other team up without making himself look petty/gloating to TV audiences and fans at the game. Which was one of the first things I was taught when starting rugby - don't celebrate or rub it in, and show respect to the opposition. Even if that isn't always upheld perfectly.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He has a beautiful speaking voice. Which I'm.sure you won't hear during the game.

I was thinking more of his many comebacks. I wonder how long his next one will last? I'd perhaps bet 35 minutes maybe.

Anyone else in the queue online for RWC tickets? 70k people ahead of me.

Collapse2005 wrote:Anyone else in the queue online for RWC tickets? 70k people ahead of me.

Felt like I had 70k in front of me at the bar the last time I went to the MS.

robbo277 wrote:Celebrations second - I'm wondering what it is you don't like about this? As it is not detrimental to a team's performance. There are no stats kept on this (as previous, this doesn't impact the game, so it would be unusual to record it) but anecdotally I don't think he's the only player who does this by any stretch. For example, is it any different to George Ford or any other back from indeed any nation rushing in to pat a forward on the head after winning a scrum penalty while the scrums are still standing up? I think Itoje is now "known" for this, so any time he does it is embedded in the memory due to confirmation bias. How he became known for it and others get away with it is I suppose the question.

It could be that he's known for it because for his first season with England, he didn't really do it. Again, I have no statistical evidence of this, but my recollection is that he was just quietly very, very good in his first Six Nations, and somewhere along the way he added this gloating whooping thing to his game.

He's not the only player that does it, and it's no less unedifying when other players do it. You can celebrate winning a penalty without mocking your opponent for conceding it.

Anyway back on topic.................

I'd pick a quick backrow vs Ireland and two lumps at 4 & 5

Who are these players?

Its obvious.

Presumably Mercer at 8. Curry at 7. Struggling for a 6 your have. Attwood and stooke
I think your locks aren't good enough Mercer can't get picked before vunipola and your 6 is invisible.. Currys a good pick though.

So it looks like Ireland might have a scrum half crisis with Murray coming back to fitness and McGrath, Marmion and Cooney either ruled out or currently injured.

rodders wrote:So it looks like Ireland might have a scrum half crisis with Murray coming back to fitness and McGrath, Marmion and Cooney either ruled out or currently injured.

You panic too readily, rodders. Paddy Wallace is a good utility at everything and will undoubtedly be called up if required. Relax.

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:So it looks like Ireland might have a scrum half crisis with Murray coming back to fitness and McGrath, Marmion and Cooney either ruled out or currently injured.

You panic too readily, rodders.  Paddy Wallace is a good utility at everything and will undoubtedly be called up if required.  Relax.

Poor Peter Stringer, what does he need to do to get a game?

Caolan bladerunner Blade might get a call up.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He has a beautiful speaking voice. Which I'm.sure you won't hear during the game.

Not unless you have bat-like hearing

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He has a beautiful speaking voice. Which I'm.sure you won't hear during the game.

Not unless you have bat-like hearing

Damn!  The English lads have unearthed our secret line calling method!!!!

Joe will be pissssed!

What time is squad announced?

Just got Ireland v Russia RWC tickets. Happy days. About 20 hours of online queueing.

Nice one collapse but bloody hell that seems a bad system to have to wait that long for a game you'd assume had a little less interest than others!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nice one collapse but bloody hell that seems a bad system to have to wait that long for a game you'd assume had a little less interest than others!

Never forget the corporates. The ordinary mortals get sidetracked into the lesser games coz the corporates buy up the big games.... thus the squeeze on lesser games.

I love Japan so just happy to be going. If I hadn't fallen asleep last night I would have reached the top of the queue at 2:30am and got semi or quarters tickets. I fell asleep and reverted to the back of the queue behind 90,000 people. Oh well I prefer my sleep.

How much are flights, roughly? Hotels?

(I realise I could look all this up!)

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:How much are flights, roughly? Hotels?

(I realise I could look all this up!)

Flights are cheap to Japan. You can generally get some for about €650 to €750 which is good € per mile value.

Hotels are whatever you want to spend. Japan can be done cheap. My tip is to buy a Japan Rail pass in Europe before you travel if you are going to various cities. Not available in Japan.

Not jealous at all......

According to Gatland the France game is Wales' toughest test.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/109954111/warren-gatland-confident-of-wales-winning-six-nations

Collapse2005 wrote:According to Gatland the France game is Wales' toughest test.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/109954111/warren-gatland-confident-of-wales-winning-six-nations

It is in that we HAVE to win to get the needed momentum going to beat England, Ireland etc

God, lads.  Some of you are young enough but all of you are old enough to know repetitive claptrap for promotional purposes.

The same thing gets said every year.  The build up lingo to get the bums-on-seats warmed up.

As soon as the French game is over, Gats will be on to saying his team have to improve to be ready for England, Scotland and Ireland.

It's all mush really.  But I suppose we all love getting into the mush all the same.

I can picture Joe being asked to comment. He'll repeat himself too:

"Oh, it's going to be tough. One game at a time is how we do it. We don't look too far ahead. Tremendous teams in this competition. You don't ever say you're going to go and win it. Too many variables."

"Gats just said that. He said he's going to win it."

"Did he? The f**king basterde! Well, if that's how he feels, we're going to smash 'em all!!! Blood and guts it'll be! We won't leave an enemy player living on the pitch by the time we hold the cup aloft, and that INCLUDES the bloody refs!"

Collapse2005 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:How much are flights, roughly? Hotels?

(I realise I could look all this up!)

Flights are cheap to Japan. You can generally get some for about €650 to €750 which is good € per mile value.

Hotels are whatever you want to spend. Japan can be done cheap. My tip is to buy a Japan Rail pass in Europe before you travel if you are going to various cities. Not available in Japan.

Thanks.

Still no team announcement... what do we make of this delay folks, some key injury concerns or a clash between Schmidt and Farrell on selection??

munkian wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:According to Gatland the France game is Wales' toughest test.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/109954111/warren-gatland-confident-of-wales-winning-six-nations

It is in that we HAVE to win to get the needed momentum going to beat England, Ireland etc

In some ways its a fair comment. France at home are good (it was our closest game last year) and away games tend to be tough in the six nations.