England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

[LondonTiger]

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures


Ireland (a)
Saturday 2nd Feb, 16:45 - ITV

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)


France (h)
Sunday 10th Feb, 15:00 - ITV

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)


Wales (a)
Saturday 23rd Feb, 16:45 - BBC


Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)


Italy (h)
Saturday 9th March, 16:45 - ITV

Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)
Assistant 1: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)


Scotland (h)
Saturday 16th March, 17:00 - ITV

Referee: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)






Squad


For First & Second Tests:

Forwards
Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Ben Earl (Saracens) *, Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje  Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors) *, Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)
Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs), Owen Farrell (Saracens) captain, George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Dan Robson (Wasps) *, Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby) *, Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

*Uncapped

Players unavailable due to injury:  Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby).

[LondonTiger]

Obano did not help himself by going to that training despite being injured.

[king_carlos]

Training levels being fluid is a very interesting point.

At club level both the players and coaches are often products of the same systems so their understanding of common training phrases such as '75% intensity' or 'put a shoulder in' are fairly similar. As there's that familiarity there new players and coaches can swiftly settle in.

In the England set-up the same isn't true as you've got an amalgamation of coaches and players from lots of different systems. As such I can fully understand what Obano is stating.

[Rugby Fan]

...At club level both the players and coaches are often products of the same systems so their understanding of common training phrases such as '75% intensity' or 'put a shoulder in' are fairly similar...

Sometimes, there are just people who don't know how to turn it down. Mike Tindall told a story on the House of Rugby podcast about a Gloucester player (forget the name) who always went over the top. One season, the club was going to be heavily-reliant on one fly half but he was tackled by that player in a pre-season training session, and had to miss several months.

[Ricardo74]

Not a nice read, that. Horrible to have to endure for the chap.

Fingers crossed he comes back stronger than ever and gets another chance to make his mark with England.

I can't remember, is he a tight head or a loosie?

[No 7&1/2]

Loose.

[robbo277]

So where do we go from here? There's still a Championship to be contested, but with Italy to come next time out, do we go close to full strength, or look at making some changes?

If Wales are to drop a game, they'll end up on 17/18 points. If Ireland get 5 today and then win their last two, they'll be on 17 + any try bonus points against France or Wales.

Not getting the bonus yesterday hurts. If we'd got that for 11, the bonus point wouldn't even be necessary against Italy. But we didn't and it may be important as 19 points may be the Championship number.

The fact that he didn't use Cowan-Dickie, Robson or Ford and only gave Genge, Shields and Cokanasiga a handful of minutes (4, 4 and 11) makes me think despite what we think is a strong bench, Eddie is reluctant to use it, so maybe giving all those guys a run from the start would let Eddie get some confidence in these fringe players? Eddie went with Shields over Hughes for "work-rate" then left some tired bodies out there.

Sinckler was a colossus in defence for us and will be stronger for the experience. Curry was phenomenal in the first half too.

The below line-up should be strong enough to beat Italy quite comfortably at home:
Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Launchbury, Kruis, Shields, Curry, Vunipola
Robson, Ford (C), Nowell, Tuilagi, Slade, Cokanasiga, Daly
George, Moon, Williams, Isiekwe, Wilson, Youngs, Farrell, Brown

Assuming injuries to Mako, Itoje, Lawes, May and Ashton sustained this tournament haven't cleared up and Hartley, Joseph and Watson aren't ready to return to International rugby yet.

We can then go into the Scotland game with a refreshed starting line-up and then hopefully some confidence in the bench players - which will be crucial to have in the World Cup.

[Duty281]

I think we'll see a variety of changes for the Italy game, Robson/Genge/Cokansiga starting amongst them, but even with those changes you'd expect England to get a full 5 points.

England have one advantage in that they're playing last on the final weekend, so will know exactly what they need to do against Scotland if Wales have slipped up by then. It's probable, though, that England will need 20 points to have any chance of winning the title.

Wales shouldn't lose against Scotland - the latter have had an awful three games so far - but the game against Ireland in Cardiff is pretty close to 50-50.

[hugehandoff]

England need to give as many back up players some game time in case they are needed in the RWC. Plus some players need more game time like Billy and Manu and maybe Maro will be fit and he will need a game before the Scots arrive.

I would go for: Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Williams, Maro, Joe, Shields, Billy, not Curry but not sure who else, Robson, Ford, Cockanasiga, Manu, Slade, Nowell, Brown

[No 7&1/2]

Clifford is an option at 7.

[Pie]

What is sop with Lawes?

[robbo277]

What is sop with Lawes?

Scratch that last post.

https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12504/11647458/courtney-lawes-out-of-englands-six-nations-campaign-with-calf-injury

[robbo277]

I think we'll see a variety of changes for the Italy game, Robson/Genge/Cokansiga starting amongst them, but even with those changes you'd expect England to get a full 5 points.

England have one advantage in that they're playing last on the final weekend, so will know exactly what they need to do against Scotland if Wales have slipped up by then. It's probable, though, that England will need 20 points to have any chance of winning the title.

Wales shouldn't lose against Scotland - the latter have had an awful three games so far - but the game against Ireland in Cardiff is pretty close to 50-50.

I can't see a situation where 20 points would win us the Championship where 19 wouldn't. If England get their 2 wins, they'll be on 18 points. 1 try bonus point would take us to 19 and the 2 bonus points would take us to 20.

If Wales win 2 games with no bonus points, they'll be on 20 but they'll get the 3 Slam bonus points to go to 23. England have no chance of the Championship.

Without a grand slam, Wales possible points totals are:
20 (try bonus point win / try bonus point draw)
19 (try bonus point win / draw or try bonus point win / double bonus point loss)
18 (try bonus point win + single bonus point loss / win + draw or win / double bonus point loss)

Ireland are on a maximum of 19 points if they win both their games with try bonus points.

The 20 point scenario is highly unlikely. Can I see Wales losing 33-36 to Ireland on the last day to get the double bonus point loss that would get them onto 19? Possibly not, but a draw is marginally more likely.

So the most points I can see Wales getting is 19. They're already 16 behind us, with us to play Italy and Scotland at home. If they're drawing against Ireland to make this scenario possible, then they'd have to beat Scotland by about 40.

If England can beat Italy and Scotland and get one bonus point, then a Grand Slam is the only realistic option that could stop us.

[No 7&1/2]

We've got to go out expecting Wales to lose at least one of the games while picking up the wins and bonus points available. Another enforced change at lock so presumably Launchbury comes in and itoje or isiekwe to the bench. Personally I'd keep the changes down a little. Genge to start with Robson and Cokanasiga with Nowell back to full back.

[majesticimperialman]

With regards to Nowell at full back. I would like to see Mike Brown coming back in a proper full back and leave Nowell on the wing or bench.

[No 7&1/2]

Fair enough call. Personally I Think the Daly experiment should be over.

[majesticimperialman]

Yes i agree. Time to try a different tactic.

[Poorfour]

England need to give as many back up players some game time in case they are needed in the RWC. Plus some players need more game time like Billy and Manu and maybe Maro will be fit and he will need a game before the Scots arrive.

I would go for: Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Williams, Maro, Joe, Shields, Billy, not Curry but not sure who else, Robson, Ford, Cockanasiga, Manu, Slade, Nowell, Brown

They'll need a new set of tactics then - they were primarily using Billy and Sinckler in attack, and it was noticeable how much blunter the attack became once Sinck went off - not that it was sharp to begin with. It was very odd that with so many attacking weapons at their disposal, England barely used Tuilagi or Slade.

[Geordie]

Personally in my opinon...England lost it because the welsh got in their heads. England were bossing the game then imploded with stupid behaviour.

The Welsh won because they psyched out the English mentally through the game....as they do all too frequently.

[No 7&1/2]

True to an extent. And also in the refs head. Canny play.

[king_carlos]

I thought Wales kicked a lot better than England. Liam Williams also dealt with England's kicking game very well.

Slade and Daly were utilised as tactical kicking options very little given that Farrell and Youngs weren't having great games in that regard. Slade in particular has an absolute cannon of a left boot, it's a pretty obvious alternative to turn to if the halfbacks are causing few issues.

Jones refusal to use the bench when the game needed changing didn't inspire confidence either.

[bluestonevedder]

I thought Wales kicked a lot better than England. Liam Williams also dealt with England's kicking game very well.

Slade and Daly were utilised as tactical kicking options very little given that Farrell and Youngs weren't having great games in that regard. Slade in particular has an absolute cannon of a left boot, it's a pretty obvious alternative to turn to if the halfbacks are causing few issues.

Jones refusal to use the bench when the game needed changing didn't inspire confidence either.

This for me is the most worrying takeaway from the loss.

We saw two totally different tactical approaches on Saturday. One coach recognised that his team were on the up and made the necessary substitutions to grab the game by its throat (no Tuilagi dig intended), while the other obstinately believed in a plan that was falling apart and did nothing to ignite a much needed resurgence.

[Duty281]

I think we'll see a variety of changes for the Italy game, Robson/Genge/Cokansiga starting amongst them, but even with those changes you'd expect England to get a full 5 points.

England have one advantage in that they're playing last on the final weekend, so will know exactly what they need to do against Scotland if Wales have slipped up by then. It's probable, though, that England will need 20 points to have any chance of winning the title.

Wales shouldn't lose against Scotland - the latter have had an awful three games so far - but the game against Ireland in Cardiff is pretty close to 50-50.

I can't see a situation where 20 points would win us the Championship where 19 wouldn't. If England get their 2 wins, they'll be on 18 points. 1 try bonus point would take us to 19 and the 2 bonus points would take us to 20.

If Wales win 2 games with no bonus points, they'll be on 20 but they'll get the 3 Slam bonus points to go to 23. England have no chance of the Championship.

Without a grand slam, Wales possible points totals are:
20 (try bonus point win / try bonus point draw)
19 (try bonus point win / draw or try bonus point win / double bonus point loss)
18 (try bonus point win + single bonus point loss / win + draw or win / double bonus point loss)

Ireland are on a maximum of 19 points if they win both their games with try bonus points.

The 20 point scenario is highly unlikely. Can I see Wales losing 33-36 to Ireland on the last day to get the double bonus point loss that would get them onto 19? Possibly not, but a draw is marginally more likely.

So the most points I can see Wales getting is 19. They're already 16 behind us, with us to play Italy and Scotland at home. If they're drawing against Ireland to make this scenario possible, then they'd have to beat Scotland by about 40.

If England can beat Italy and Scotland and get one bonus point, then a Grand Slam is the only realistic option that could stop us.

Good post and entirely my mistake. I thought Wales were on 13 points, meaning a BP win over Scotland and a BP loss against Ireland would get them to 19, but I forgot that they didn't get a BP win against Italy.

[robbo277]

Eddie Jones has called 25 + 3 into his Oxford training camp.

The main 25 is essentially last week's 25 man squad before Hughes and Te'o dropped out, with Ewels coming in for Lawes.

Moon, Genge, George, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Williams, Launchbury, Kruis, Ewels, Wilson, Shields, Curry, Vunipola, Hughes
Youngs, Robson, Farrell, Ford, Tuilagi, Te'o, Slade, May, Nowell, Daly, Cokanasiga

Itoje will continue his rehabilitation with the squad (but isn't named in the 25 man training squad) and Underhill and Watson will report for medical contact only. Whether that means Itoje will be ready for Italy or not, I'm not sure, but Underhill and Watson most likely won't.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/six-nations-england-rugby-italy-eddie-jones-names-players-for-oxford-training-camp/?sf208403594=1

It means we're unlikely to see many changes to the 23 man squad as it would make sense to call in any new faces now to get up to speed with the squad and the calls. However there's a chance we could see changes to the starting line-up with bench players rotating in.

Do I think Hughes or Te'o should jump into the squad? Not for Vunipola or Tuilagi. The two are basically like-for-like but a level below in my eyes and unless there is fitness doubt over the first two let's leave them in place.

As I've said before, I'd try to give all the bench players a run out from the start, but at the very least if we see the same starting line-up (Lawes excepted) then I'd want to see the bench used much earlier. Genge, Robson, Cokanasiga in particular could do with some proper game time against Italy to see if they are realistic options to come on against Scotland if things aren't going swimmingly and for the World Cup further down the line.

[robbo277]

I think we'll see a variety of changes for the Italy game, Robson/Genge/Cokansiga starting amongst them, but even with those changes you'd expect England to get a full 5 points.

England have one advantage in that they're playing last on the final weekend, so will know exactly what they need to do against Scotland if Wales have slipped up by then. It's probable, though, that England will need 20 points to have any chance of winning the title.

Wales shouldn't lose against Scotland - the latter have had an awful three games so far - but the game against Ireland in Cardiff is pretty close to 50-50.

I can't see a situation where 20 points would win us the Championship where 19 wouldn't. If England get their 2 wins, they'll be on 18 points. 1 try bonus point would take us to 19 and the 2 bonus points would take us to 20.

If Wales win 2 games with no bonus points, they'll be on 20 but they'll get the 3 Slam bonus points to go to 23. England have no chance of the Championship.

Without a grand slam, Wales possible points totals are:
20 (try bonus point win / try bonus point draw)
19 (try bonus point win / draw or try bonus point win / double bonus point loss)
18 (try bonus point win + single bonus point loss / win + draw or win / double bonus point loss)

Ireland are on a maximum of 19 points if they win both their games with try bonus points.

The 20 point scenario is highly unlikely. Can I see Wales losing 33-36 to Ireland on the last day to get the double bonus point loss that would get them onto 19? Possibly not, but a draw is marginally more likely.

So the most points I can see Wales getting is 19. They're already 16 behind us, with us to play Italy and Scotland at home. If they're drawing against Ireland to make this scenario possible, then they'd have to beat Scotland by about 40.

If England can beat Italy and Scotland and get one bonus point, then a Grand Slam is the only realistic option that could stop us.

Good post and entirely my mistake. I thought Wales were on 13 points, meaning a BP win over Scotland and a BP loss against Ireland would get them to 19, but I forgot that they didn't get a BP win against Italy.

Wales were poor against Italy, although that may have been put into a bit of context by Ireland's result in Italy yesterday. I didn't see the game but it seems Italy are at least putting up a fight at home. I would however expect the full 5 at Twickenham. Scotland managed it against them, and the England team should be looking to hit back after their loss. There's only so much you can prove against Italy, but England should be looking for maximum points with minimal fuss and then move onto a potential Championship game against Scotland.

[king_carlos]

I thought Wales kicked a lot better than England. Liam Williams also dealt with England's kicking game very well.

Slade and Daly were utilised as tactical kicking options very little given that Farrell and Youngs weren't having great games in that regard. Slade in particular has an absolute cannon of a left boot, it's a pretty obvious alternative to turn to if the halfbacks are causing few issues.

Jones refusal to use the bench when the game needed changing didn't inspire confidence either.

This for me is the most worrying takeaway from the loss.

We saw two totally different tactical approaches on Saturday. One coach recognised that his team were on the up and made the necessary substitutions to grab the game by its throat (no Tuilagi dig intended), while the other obstinately believed in a plan that was falling apart and did nothing to ignite a much needed resurgence.

Not giving Robson game time earlier biting the coaches a bit I felt. Youngs wasn't getting anywhere and they needed a tactical change. That didn't have to be Robson but it could have been.

9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Tuilagi 14.Cokanasiga 15.Nowell

An extra direct ball carrier, a tested 9-10-12 partnership a different kicking option at 10 to change things up, a change at full back.

9.Robson 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Tuilagi 13.Daly 14.Cokanasiga 15.Nowell

Some extra pace in the back line to try to spark things and a 9 who will look to use them.

Lots of other permutations available obviously but just two examples that would have allowed a different attacking threat. The lack of attempt to try anything was the worry though.

Moon must have been knackered but he Genge wasn't tried - compared to the old Mako/Marler pairing. The back row had got through a mountain of work but Shields wasn't trusted to take over - compared to someone such as Hughes, Clifford or Mercer who offers a tactical alternative.

[robbo277]

I thought Wales kicked a lot better than England. Liam Williams also dealt with England's kicking game very well.

Slade and Daly were utilised as tactical kicking options very little given that Farrell and Youngs weren't having great games in that regard. Slade in particular has an absolute cannon of a left boot, it's a pretty obvious alternative to turn to if the halfbacks are causing few issues.

Jones refusal to use the bench when the game needed changing didn't inspire confidence either.

This for me is the most worrying takeaway from the loss.

We saw two totally different tactical approaches on Saturday. One coach recognised that his team were on the up and made the necessary substitutions to grab the game by its throat (no Tuilagi dig intended), while the other obstinately believed in a plan that was falling apart and did nothing to ignite a much needed resurgence.

Not giving Robson game time earlier biting the coaches a bit I felt. Youngs wasn't getting anywhere and they needed a tactical change. That didn't have to be Robson but it could have been.

9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Tuilagi 14.Cokanasiga 15.Nowell

An extra direct ball carrier, a tested 9-10-12 partnership a different kicking option at 10 to change things up, a change at full back.

9.Robson 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Tuilagi 13.Daly 14.Cokanasiga 15.Nowell

Some extra pace in the back line to try to spark things and a 9 who will look to use them.

Lots of other permutations available obviously but just two examples that would have allowed a different attacking threat. The lack of attempt to try anything was the worry though.

Moon must have been knackered but he Genge wasn't tried - compared to the old Mako/Marler pairing. The back row had got through a mountain of work but Shields wasn't trusted to take over - compared to someone such as Hughes, Clifford or Mercer who offers a tactical alternative.

This one is slightly different and I have a slight bit more sympathy with. At 60 minutes, we had Moon, George and Williams on. If we sub Genge for Moon, we can reverse that sub if Genge were to get injured, or if we had an injury to George or Williams we can always reverse front row subs. We don't lose injury cover therefore by bringing Genge on.

Once we'd subbed Launchbury on for Kruis, Shields was the only back 5 option left and if he had brought him on and then had someone else go down injured, he would have been left with Cowan-Dickie or Tuilagi in the back row or possibly down to 14. The way the game was going, he was possibly right to keep Shields back and bring him on to cover the injury, which eventually Lawes picked up.

[LondonTiger]

For Italy I would start with a back line of:

Robson, Farrell, Cokanisiga, Tuilagi, Slade, Nowell, Daly

Eddie will not move Daly from FB now and I would like to give Robson a start with the first choice 10 and give May some time off to ensure the concussion is gone.

I would thus have Youngs, Ford and Te'o on the bench - aiming to bring the Tigers pair on with 30 minutes to go and instructions to move to a passing game.

[SecretFly]

It seems there is a degree of intensity you have to reach now at the very highest level to compete and it pretty much has to sustain itself for most of the eighty. Ireland dished it to New Zealand and they weren't ready, England dished it to Ireland and they weren't ready and Wales dished it to England who weren't ready. Rugby at the highest levels is it seems ambush rugby. Lure the enemy into false sense of security and pounce when they expect a mediocre performance to suffice.

[yappysnap]

I can see Shields starting against Italy. We lacked a bit of leadership on Saturday and I think Eddie thinks Shields brings that.

[Guest]

Very true Fly. And a reason why the small margins are so, so important.

With regards to Nowell at full back. I would like to see Mike Brown coming back in a proper full back and leave Nowell on the wing or bench.

As I said pre-tournament, I'd be amazed if Brown isn't full-back for the RWC.

The small margins Henshaw gave England proved costly, and the small margins Daly gave Wales did likewise.

The issue England face is how well Wales outplayed them as the game went on. It wasn't just psyhological - although the wind-ups played a massive part, poor play from England to fall for that. Nor did the ref favour Wales. As Carlos says, after the first 30 Wales had a far better kicking game and, the most crucial part, played far, far better with ball in hand by maintaining that intensity in a way Wales love and England hate - going through the phases carefully and methodically but with enough intensity that the defence tires, eventually starts yielding, and then make mistakes/give away penalties.

England could have very easily won the game had the chanced their hand and moved the ball into the centres and 3/4s more often. But it's a sign of respect/fear of what Wales have out there too - JD2 was an uninvolved as Slade was and the Welsh back 3 shone in a tight affair. No doubt they would have ripped it up had the game become looser. But the point was England do have the players to dominate games in more than one way - their failure to adapt is a big notch against them for the RWC. As Gatland said, not sure they've really learnt all that much from the Lancaster era, despite having the two titles to their name under EJ.

Adaptability on-field comes from the coaches and then the players; it appears Farrell has a big role in the team (keeping them out on the field at half-time, apparently he creates back moves as well, as he did for the Lions). Again, not wanting to bludgeon England, but it's too much pressure on Farrell - he's good but he's not Wilkinson good. And he's definitely not Wilkinson-and-Johnson-combined good.

Wales' dominance was exemplified by Tom Curry. He was everywhere in the first half but, in the second, bar one turnover on Parkes where JD2 and Tipuric slipped at the clearout, he was resigned to tackling hard instead of causing chaos around the fringes. He nearly pinched the ball that led to Wales' second try but Welsh pressure turned it back over and Wales won the scrum: it's in situations like that where EJ makes his money. That shouldn't have been happening - England shouldn't be suffering under so much intensity against a smaller Welsh team. Curry should have been freed up to make those key turnovers, tackles, and transitions instead of one of their key defenders. It's tough losing players of Itoje's and Underhill's quality - and obviously Wilson is a newcomer to test level - but not sure the balance of the back 5 of the pack is right. For all the criticis of AWJ - and there are many in this thread, no doubt - he got the upper hand over his opponents, even if he doesn't have the physical edge. Durability, fitness, handling skills, positioning etc. - all these things are key in intense situations and, without wanting to keep hammering England, they were largely second best and not because they under performed per se, but because they didn't have an answer to Wales' intensity.

Don't think there's too much to worry about though. The Slade-Tuilagi axis should be persisted with for the Scotland game as I think it could be RWC-winning, but have a look at a different set-up against Italy. Not just Te'o. A Jonathan Joseph type player, say. Or bring Daly back to 13.

[Duty281]

It seems there is a degree of intensity you have to reach now at the very highest level to compete and it pretty much has to sustain itself for most of the eighty.  Ireland dished it to New Zealand and they weren't ready, England dished it to Ireland and they weren't ready and Wales dished it to England who weren't ready.  Rugby at the highest levels is it seems ambush rugby.  Lure the enemy into false sense of security and pounce when they expect a mediocre performance to suffice.

Indeed. New Zealand and Ireland were little better than average in those defeats, while England were dreadful. I still expect it'll be one of those three teams who win the RWC later in the year (though England only have a puncher's chance), but the levels of consistency from all tier 1 nations at the moment make you wonder as to how open the tournament might just be.

[yappysnap]

Does any one think weve seen the last of Daly at 15? By all accounts (social media) he was shown up on Sat. Mike Brown to make a triumphant return?

[Rugby Fan]

Does any one think weve seen the last of Daly at 15? By all accounts (social media) he was shown up on Sat.

I think some on this forum said he was shown up but that's not how I saw it. I don't think he had a great game but, given the way we were playing, I'm not sure Mike Brown would have obviously have made a difference.

[Ricardo74]

I haven't read all the posts above, so if I'm regurgitating what has already been said then - well, it's pretty obvious. We were very good in the first half. Wales were very good in the second half, and we didn't react - either on-field or off-field.

(a) someone on the field (the captain???) should have recognised that the gameplan was being nullified, and adjusted to suit. We made good ground up the middle with ball in hand, but seemed to persist in kicking it away. Having hung my hat on Farrell as our captain in the pre-game comments, the lack of on-field decision making makes me question my judgement on that.

(b) where was the bench? EJ has shown in the past that he's not afraid to change things when they aren't working - hooking Burrell and Harrisson of fin the first half spring readily to mind, but failing to recognise the change in dynamic on the pitch and respond with Ford, Robson... Shields had to be kept back to cover once Lawes went off, I think, but Genge?

All very frustrating. Especially against Wales! Can't argue with the result - they deserved it. Well done, fellas.

[Ricardo74]

Also - disclaimer - I was watching it through something of an alcoholic haze. That said, how good was Curry in the first half?

[Ricardo74]

Does any one think weve seen the last of Daly at 15? By all accounts (social media) he was shown up on Sat. Mike Brown to make a triumphant return?

Possibly not the last, but there really is no substitute for experience in white-hot encounters like Saturday. We saw what happened in Dublin with Henderson (who, while not a fullback, is a quality player), and against France (who inexplicably left Ramos out). The same happened with England on Saturday - a centre at 15 is not the solution.

Daly is a great player (not that he's shown it for Wasps this season), with footballing skills off the chart and a good reading of the game - from wing or centre, where he's played the vast majority of his rugby. I can understand Jones's desire to have him on the field.

He should be competing with Slade and Joseph for the 13 shirt. He'll play again at FB though. What are the other options, outside of Brown? Woodward? Nowell? Watson isn't far off fitness, I think?

[lostinwales]

How frustrated did Tuilagi look in that 2nd half? He made one really good break but there was a tension about it which said he wasn't getting a chance to get involved in the game.

As for the throat grabbing incident. I havn't looked to see what has been said but Williams did something to provoke it, and something which meant that Tuilagi lined him up for a 'special' tackle not long after.

Very frustrating to see us go back into our shells, just kick the ball badly and wait while the Welsh went through phase after phase. What good is a strategy which is all about exploiting the other team's errors when that team stops making them (and we stopped forcing them too). We do have a number of exceptional players. We did seem to use the bench very badly, and we stopped playing.

[bluestonevedder]

Does any one think weve seen the last of Daly at 15? By all accounts (social media) he was shown up on Sat. Mike Brown to make a triumphant return?

Possibly not the last, but there really is no substitute for experience in white-hot encounters like Saturday. We saw what happened in Dublin with Henderson (who, while not a fullback, is a quality player), and against France (who inexplicably left Ramos out). The same happened with England on Saturday - a centre at 15 is not the solution.

Daly is a great player (not that he's shown it for Wasps this season), with footballing skills off the chart and a good reading of the game - from wing or centre, where he's played the vast majority of his rugby. I can understand Jones's desire to have him on the field.

He should be competing with Slade and Joseph for the 13 shirt. He'll play again at FB though. What are the other options, outside of Brown? Woodward? Nowell? Watson isn't far off fitness, I think?

I hope we have seen the last of Daly at FB to be honest. He's a great player but I feel like EJ is shoehorning him into the squad at the expense of other better suited fullbacks. What cemented it for me was Daly's really poorly-timed jump for Adams' try at the end of the game. You wouldn't see that from the likes of Folau, Kearney, Williams, or Brown.

[Sharkey06]

The worrying thing was that it was not a great tactical display by Wales - and that isn't a cheap shot at them. It isn't rocket science but you tackle Billy low and early. Same with Sinckler. In the second half Wales pack simply picked and went close in to the ruck reptitively, as Ireland have so often done and England didn't know how to counter it. Jones management of the bench is unexplainable at times. Why has Robson had so little game time? At least with Care you knew he was generally going to come on after 60 minutes as the game loosened up and be a real running threat. As has been mentioned, why wasn't Genge given more time ont he pitch? Moon is a solid player, but Genge has a bit of x factor in defence and attack, which England needed int he second half. Likewise Wilson has been very solid and his defensive work on Saturday was typically good, but we needed some big carries/big tackles/something.

Whilst I am disappointed England lost I think it is better for us than a win would have been. Had we gone to the World Cup as Grand Slam champions, we would have come a cropper. Hopefully the loss will mean that there is no complacency in the players and that Jones will realise England aren't good enough at the moment to compete for the World Cup and that he needs to improve the gameplan and bench use.

[robbo277]

Does any one think weve seen the last of Daly at 15? By all accounts (social media) he was shown up on Sat. Mike Brown to make a triumphant return?

Possibly not the last, but there really is no substitute for experience in white-hot encounters like Saturday. We saw what happened in Dublin with Henderson (who, while not a fullback, is a quality player), and against France (who inexplicably left Ramos out). The same happened with England on Saturday - a centre at 15 is not the solution.

Daly is a great player (not that he's shown it for Wasps this season), with footballing skills off the chart and a good reading of the game - from wing or centre, where he's played the vast majority of his rugby. I can understand Jones's desire to have him on the field.

He should be competing with Slade and Joseph for the 13 shirt. He'll play again at FB though. What are the other options, outside of Brown? Woodward? Nowell? Watson isn't far off fitness, I think?

I may be wrong on this, but I thought that Daly had only really played at 13 and 15 for Wasps and wing was pretty much a new position for him at International level.

It's almost certain we'll see Daly at 15 against Italy, as Jones hasn't made any unforced changes to his 25 man squad that he called in for training this week. Daly, Nowell, May and Cokanasiga are his only back three options. He could theoretically shift May or Nowell to 15 or recall Brown next week, but none are as likely as him sticking with Daly.

Watson went to the training camp to touch base with the physios, but I do not believe he's near enough a return yet to be considered for Italy.

[Guest]

Interesting about Watson. Does anyone believe he was being lined up for 15 for the RWC, and that's why Brown was dropped?

[Rugby Fan]

Interesting about Watson. Does anyone believe he was being lined up for 15 for the RWC, and that's why Brown was dropped?

He's definitely in mind for that spot, for the same reason Daly is being played there. Brown has been dropped because Jones knows what he can do, and needs to discover if there are better alternatives. Most pundits assume Brown will be in the World Cup squad but it's not a sure thing.

We don't really know what Jones will take into consideration when he selects his larger World Cup training squad. Premiership form has rarely seemed to be a factor, and yet Quins are looking good in 3rd place. If the likes of Brown, Robshaw and Care help Quins to a successful season, then it might give them all a boost. Probably too late for Marcus Smith to make a run, though. Likewise Gloucester, where Ben Morgan looks like he might be in better nick than Nathan Hughes.

[LondonTiger]

Watson replaced Brown during last year's 6 Nations - so I guess that was the original plan, and he was playing there for Bath.

Daly started at FB for Wasps when he broke into the team, but was playing 13 when Jones picked him up. Although he has appeared on the wing for Wasps after his England call-up, I am not sure he had before that. Certainly his inexperience on the wing was shown up against Argentina when he lost sight of that kick chase and was sent off. Jones was desperate to have Daly on the field hence back then squeezing him in on the wing - and he did well enough to be a test winger for the Lions.

[Guest]

It's an interesting one.

I think Daly looks destined to be lumbered with the same problems James Hook had as a utility back. The 13 shirt has become a very technical position in defence, and he's obviously not the best option there - Slade, by contrast, is really good defensively despite also being an 'attacking'/creative player in the traditional sense. I don't think I've seen a better defensive 13 for England for a long time though and he's got the all-round game to persist with. Really looks comfortable at test level.

Think you can get away with Daly at 15 against most opposition, including in the latter stages of a RWC - he's not as bad as Henshaw - and on the wing, too, but, for me, he looks like a really perfect attacking 13. Just not sure he has the defence.

It's a case of making a pros v cons chart with Daly I feel. Great #23 to bring on but his long range kicking is vital for NH teams so you want him starting. Wales have had 1/2P for the best part of a decade now and he's won games with his long range kicking alone - Slade, presumably, doesn't have that in his locker. An excellent kicker in open play, but the fact that Daly can hit anything from 50m (in theory, not sure he has the accuracy of 1/2P).

It would be interesting to see Watson picked at 15 though. Another brilliant player. With Joseph at 13 that side was brutal with the pace they had in their team. Watson and May plus a more rounded winger (or even someone like Cokanasiga) is, again, ruthless in attack. If England get front foot ball they have the players to decimate teams, not just beat them - it's just a case of finding the balance. Brown is still England's best 15 but I can definitely see why you'd go for Watson for the RWC.

[majesticimperialman]

I think England's problem's regards to full back is who takes over after Mike Brown?
Daily as been good but i feel he is an experiment at the moment, i don't think he is a settled full back. Is Watson the answer? who is standing out at the moment?

[yappysnap]

Was Brown rushed out of the team too quickly? Compare to the 9 position where no one else can seem to get a look in no matter what and it does seem a very different state of affairs. Brown is still showing good form for club too.

[maestegmafia]

I can’t see Eddie Jones opting for many changes. Daly wasn’t at fault, probably stood more chance than the shorter Brown.

[Rugby Fan]

Was Brown rushed out of the team too quickly? Compare to the 9 position where no one else can seem to get a look in no matter what and it does seem a very different state of affairs. Brown is still showing good form for club too.

That dichotomy puzzles me too. Care and Brown are both out, with Care left behind on the summer tour. While Daly has been given 10 straight starts at full back, Youngs has started at scrum half in all those matches except for the Japan game, which saw Care start.

[yappysnap]

Odd isnt it? When tbh fullback did not seem such a problem compared to 9. Perhaps it just goes to ahow how highly Jones rates Daly. But I find it very strange that Brown is dropped instantly and depth is tested, but this isnt done in our problem position of 9.

Similar could be said of hooker too, Jones was very slow to try others there until injury. Hell Robshaw and the 6 shirt is the same too.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I can’t see Eddie Jones opting for many changes. Daly wasn’t at fault, probably stood more chance than the shorter Brown.

I can imagine that 1/2 inch making all the difference......

Height can help at FB but it does't help with technique. Brown is much stronger in the air than Daly and rarely drops anything, quite the opposite in Daly's case. I was waiting for a game when Daly would be exposed for his lack of skill in taking the high ball, thankfully this is prior to a knockout situation in the WC.

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