England 6 Nations Thread

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:04 am

Sunday 2nd February 15:00 - France (a)
BBC Sport

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)
TMO: Brian MacNeice (Ireland)


Saturday 8th February 16:45 - Scotland (a)
BBC Sport

Referee: Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant 1: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant 2: Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO: James Leckie (Australia)


Sunday 23rd February 15:00 - Ireland (h)
ITV Sport

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Marius Jonker (South Africa)


Saturday 7th March 16:45 - Wales (h)
ITV Sport, S4C

Referee: Ben O’Keeffe (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Marius Jonker (South Africa)


Saturday 14th March 16:45 - Italy (a)
ITV Sport

Referee: Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Brian MacNeice (Ireland)




Squad

Forwards
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 21 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 19 caps)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Earl (Saracens, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 14 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 45 caps)
Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors, 1 cap)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 34 caps)
George Kruis (Saracens, 41 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 62 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 81 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 6 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 68 caps)
Alex Moon (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 31 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 58 caps)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 18 caps)

Backs
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 39 caps)
Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 79 caps)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 65 caps)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 47 caps)
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps)
Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps)
Jacob Umaga (Wasps, uncapped)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 42 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 95 caps)

Apprentice players
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Josh Hodge (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)

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Post by TightHEAD on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:42 am

How many teams start with two away fixtures.

its a fix.

Also why so many French officials!!!!!
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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:56 am

TightHEAD wrote:How many teams start with two away fixtures.

its a fix.

In the last four year cycle happened 3 times, twice the team went on to wing the Grand Slam

2019 Wales
2017 Ireland
2016 England


Also why so many French officials!!!!!

Because World Rugby views them as the best officials.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 11:06 am

I think that we have a pretty favourable schedule (excepting the 6 day turn around between 1&2).

Playing France first - Not easy, but they are in a massive period of change. New players, new coaches and limited preparation time. First up best time to play them.

Scotland - Last visit to Murrayfield was a real kick in the Love sacks. Good to play this one with an extra week together and hopefully ironing out any kinks.

Ireland - Good to face one of the stronger teams from recent history at home.

Wales - Wales another side in transition. This coudl be their weakest 6Ns for a while with the old hands raginmg against time's ravages and the new guys still bedding in. Playing them at home is perhaps a 14 point advantage based on recent seasons.

Italy - Softest team last. Sprintime in Rome, good place to go if we need to win for the title or even Slam.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 11:32 am

Charlie Ewels - Discuss....
What does he bring to the England team / Squad?

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Post by Cumbrian on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 11:43 am

It is funny, when I first saw Ewels at age grade he seemed very reminiscent of Martin Johnson to me. He seemed to have leadership qualities and a hard edge to him. He has gone on to be named as club captain at Bath, as a 24 year old forward, that isn't bad going. Physically I don't think he stands out when compared to his competitors in the England squad.

He isn't a bad player and in another era I think we might have tried to talk him up a bit more, but we've had such an embarrassment of riches in that particular position recently.
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Post by TightHEAD on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 11:44 am

Eddie off to a great start.

Asked if he was looking forward to walking through Gatland's Gate on his next visit to Cardiff, Jones smiled and said: "There will probably be a few empty pint glasses there, mate."
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Post by king_carlos on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 12:28 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Charlie Ewels - Discuss....
What does he bring to the England team / Squad?

Back-up for Kruis presumably. I guess that's now more pressing if Kruis may head to Japan as well.

I rate Ewels highly. When there were suggestions he was thinking of moving from Bath a couple of season back (turned out to be agent talk/nonsense) I had everything crossed that Tigers might go for him. He's very good in the set-piece and tight. A nuts and bolts second row I guess you could say.

I'd have preferred Isiekwe or Kpoku in this squad though.

Isiekwe I just think is an excellent rugby player who does all the basics very well. If Jones is to continue with occasionally trying to fit an extra lock at 6 I'd much prefer that to be Isiekwe than Lawes or Itoje as well.

Kpoku meanwhile could offer that powerhouse second row we've talked about for so long. He was fantastic coming off the bench against Ospreys a couple of weeks back. His power in contact, especially carrying gives him a different skill-set. Similar to Ted Hill in the last regard.

If Saints do get Kpoku then their lock stocks (and two smoking Mitchells Sorry ) will be unbelievable!

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Post by TightHEAD on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 12:31 pm

Ewels is an awesome player, but he perhaps isn't an enforcer, a bit like Attwood in that respect.
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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 1:23 pm

Anyone got an opinion on Saracens players representing England? Whistle Run

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Post by TightHEAD on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 1:34 pm

One or two but I've been Censored. England 6 Nations Thread 1347041234
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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 2:00 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Anyone got an opinion on Saracens players representing England? Whistle Run

https://www.606v2.com/t69205-refreshed-side

Enjoy Wink


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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 2:57 pm

Isiekwe looks like hes getting better and better...and i agree Kpoku looks like the powerhouse lock coming through. Wonder if that'll be at Sarries or Saints.

Im just not seeing it with Ewells but then in fairness i probably dont watch him enough

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Post by bluestonevedder on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 3:02 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Anyone got an opinion on Saracens players representing England? Whistle Run

https://www.606v2.com/t69205-refreshed-side

Enjoy Wink


Godspeed if you go onto that thread Gooseberry. It's absolute carnage.

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 3:06 pm

Maybe that was the joke...who knows.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 3:13 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Maybe that was the joke...who knows.

I assumed it was, but thought playing along was also more fun.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 3:18 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Isiekwe looks like hes getting better and better...and i agree Kpoku looks like the powerhouse lock coming through. Wonder if that'll be at Sarries or Saints.

Im just not seeing it with Ewells but then in fairness i probably dont watch him enough

I have to admit that I have very little recollection of Ewels - for England or Bath. I have a largely positive impression of him from Argentina in 2017 but other than that struggling to remember seeing him play. Checking his list of tests does not help jog my memory any further.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 3:27 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Isiekwe looks like hes getting better and better...and i agree Kpoku looks like the powerhouse lock coming through. Wonder if that'll be at Sarries or Saints.

Im just not seeing it with Ewells but then in fairness i probably dont watch him enough

I have to admit that I have very little recollection of Ewels - for England or Bath. I have a largely positive impression of him from Argentina in 2017 but other than that struggling to remember seeing him play. Checking his list of tests does not help jog my memory any further.

I feel the same way about Ewels, I don't remember him playing badly but I also don't remember him doing anything that sticks in the memory unlike the main four who we could all highlight their strengths. In normal circumstances he comes across as a decent guy to have in reserve but that really isn't needed at the moment.

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Post by BamBam on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 3:47 pm

In fairness to Ewels, he's always been given less than 20 mins from the bench, I can't recall him starting a test in the 6Ns or AIs, with the depth in front of him it would have required serious injuries, but maybe he needs to either be forcing his way in to the mix for starting shirts or making way for an Isiekwe / Kpoku who possibly could.

Itoje starts every time for me, so he needs to prove he has a point of difference vs Lawes / Kruis / Launchbury to get a shot

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 4:02 pm

Be concerned about Ewels if he gets named in the 23...which is pretty unlikely given the 4 seionr locks are all fit.

Taking the injured/dropped players out what changes from the WC final team do we expect?
Theres a fair bit of forced change on the bench and the back row already so I dont expect a great deal elsewhere.
The presence of so many fullbacks in the squad does suggest that one will start or at least be on the bench ahead of Daly, along with 8 its the only position I see has a chance of one of the new players coming in to the 15. Heinz might start ahead of Youngs but I doubt it.
I doubt they will go back to Farrell at 10 and Ford on the bench starting.


FB 15 Elliot Daly
RW 14 Anthony Watson
OC 13 Manu Tuilagi
IC 12 Owen Farrell (c)
LW 11 Jonny May
FH 10 George Ford
SH 9 Ben Youngs
N8 8 Billy Vunipola
OF 7 Sam Underhill
BF 6 Tom Curry
RL 5 Courtney Lawes
LL 4 Maro Itoje
TP 3 Kyle Sinckler
HK 2 Jamie George
LP 1 Mako Vunipola
Replacements:
HK 16 Luke Cowan-Dickie'
PR 17 Joe Marler
PR 18 Dan Cole
LK 19 George Kruis
FL 20 Mark Wilson
SH 21 Ben Spencer Now Heinz
CE 22 Henry Slade
CE 23 Jonathan Joseph


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 4:28 pm

Got to admit I quite like Ewels. Never let us down and has put in quite a few decent performances. Hes unlikely ever to challenge for a starting spot given the quality of the players just a bit older and just a bit younger though.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 4:32 pm

From that team above I'd like to see hill come in at 6 and move curry to 8, stuart to come in f the bench spot, ludlam on the bench and personally furlongs to start daly on the bench. I'd also have launchbury and itoje start with lawes on the bench.

Jones will start underhill curry ludlam I think.williams on the bench.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 5:07 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:From that team above I'd like to see hill come in at 6 and move curry to 8, stuart to come in f the bench spot, ludlam on the bench and personally furlongs to start daly on the bench. I'd also have launchbury and itoje start with lawes on the bench.

Jones will start underhill curry ludlam I think.williams on the bench.

Unless Ludlam is going to play 8, that gives you two open sides. Given that Underhill is almost certainly a starter, i suspect Hill will start and Ludlam replace Underhill at about 60 minutes. If Hill doesn't work out, Lawes can shift to 6 and either Launchbury or Kruis can come on.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 5:28 pm

Just what I suspect will happen. I'm not a huge fan of ludlam as an international 7 so did have him pencilled in for 6 and curry at 8 (in what I think jones will do).

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 5:48 pm

Ludlam used to play 6, but recently has been an out and out 7. Playing exceptionally well at the moment, Emergency 8 only.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 7:18 pm

Antony Watson? I thought he was injured.

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Post by king_carlos on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 7:37 pm

I think Ludlam is viewed as a 7 challenging Underhill. He doesn't have Underhill's power in the tackle but few do. Ludlam still offers breakdown threat and work rate though.

Underhill's brilliant tackling on kick chase was a clear tactic from England at the RWC. Underhill was lined up as primary chaser on as many box kicks as they could. Ludlam is also excellent in this role for Saints as he's quick and strong in the tackle.

6.Curry, Hill
7.Underhill, Ludlam
8.Earl

I think the options will develop into that over the 6 Nations.

For France away in game one we may see 6.Lawes 7.Underhill 8.Curry but I think Earl will get game time at 8 as the tournament progresses. Ted Hill I expect to start at blindside against Italy at least. Jones has clearly rated Hill from the second he stepped up to senior rugby.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 7:52 pm

Ironic that curry is for me the standout 7, yet is just becoming class wherever he plays.

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 8:18 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ironic that curry is for me the standout 7, yet is just becoming class wherever he plays.

Yes. But when is his clone going to be picked aswell?

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 8:20 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Antony Watson? I thought he was injured.

They said it wasnt a significant injury after he limped off two weeks ago and claimed they were resting players against Ulster. As hes named in the squad I assume he is fit. It does make sense to rest him in a dead rubber as hes on a limited number of games per season.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 8:24 pm

Ben's been so unlucky hasn't he. But for that injury right at the start itd probably be him there. I'm still in a bit of disbelief that willis isnt there yet. Christ what we would have done with any of these guys about 8 years ago.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 9:28 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ben's been so unlucky hasn't he. But for that injury right at the start itd probably be him there. I'm still in a bit of disbelief that willis isnt there yet. Christ what we would have done with any of these guys about 8 years ago.

Swings and roundabouts though, what we would have done for someone like Haskell in the world cup final.

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Post by Mr Bounce on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 9:45 pm

I think we have an embarrassment of riches in the locks and flankers, but we are woefully short of genuine international 8s. Since Eddie took over our starting 8s have been Billy V, Hughes, Clifford, Simmons and Wilson. Clifford's seemingly been almost permanently injured, for some reason both Hughes and Simmons are out of favour, Wilson's coming back from injury and Billy needs a new arm. Effectively there's 4 8s who could quite easily fit in the team, but presumably don't fit with what Eddie's trying to do. The two previously mentioned (Hughes and Simmons) have very different styles which could suit specific games. The other two are the unproven Dombrandt (who I really rate) and Ben Morgan, who in my eyes is playing some of is best rugby. I love watching Morgan on a rmapaging run swatting centres off like they're pesky kids, but he doesn't fit in with Eddie's plans either, having been in one camp and unceremoniously dumped out shortly after.

I just think Eddie likes the idea of 3 flankers effectively performing the same role 3 times over.

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Post by king_carlos on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 9:51 pm

I think Zach Mercer will come into the squad when he's fit. Jones picked him as an apprentice player at 20 and capped him at 21. Had Mercer been fit I think he may well have been starting 8 for the 6 Nations once Billy broke his arm again.

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Post by yappysnap on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:56 pm

Wasn't the last time we started a tournament against France when we somehow managed to lose the game in the last minute?? I remember something about Brown/Goode/Foden all missing tackles, France running the length of the field and scoring. Good times.

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 11:30 pm

yappysnap wrote:Wasn't the last time we started a tournament against France when we somehow managed to lose the game in the last minute?? I remember something about Brown/Goode/Foden all missing tackles, France running the length of the field and scoring. Good times.

Fickou. Goode playing out of position on the wing I think because Johnny May went off with a bust nose (and looking terrible). Nowell debut(?) some good things including tackling Picamoles.

Yeah was a good game and a great late try by Fickou, the basterd

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Post by yappysnap on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 2:25 am

Yea, one of those tries where right from the off you just know it's going to all end badly (or brilliantly). I remember certain posters going mad over that May injury as well, did Brown tackle May and break his nose? and then Goode was too slow to cover across and Fickou just makes them all look silly?

Great try, shame it was against us!

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Post by Cumbrian on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 6:05 am

From what I remember, we would have won the slam if they had managed to keep him out too. Of course, we wouldn’t learn that until much later though.
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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 6:49 am

lostinwales wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Wasn't the last time we started a tournament against France when we somehow managed to lose the game in the last minute?? I remember something about Brown/Goode/Foden all missing tackles, France running the length of the field and scoring. Good times.

Fickou. Goode playing out of position on the wing I think because Johnny May went off with a bust nose (and looking terrible). Nowell debut(?) some good things including tackling Picamoles.

Yeah was a good game and a great late try by Fickou, the basterd

Yes both Nowell & Burrell had debuts that day.

It seems a long time ago we had that midfield combo of 12 3s & Luther 😳

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Post by Khouli Khan on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 7:04 am

LondonTiger wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:How many teams start with two away fixtures.

its a fix.

In the last four year cycle happened 3 times, twice the team went on to wing the Grand Slam

2019 Wales
2017 Ireland
2016 England


Also why so many French officials!!!!!

Because World Rugby views them as the best officials.

Blimey, that can't be right - French referees are fickle as anything. They're the definition of inconsistency. That's not to say I don't like them, but the way they officiate can often be amusing.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 7:10 am

Soul, lost because Haskell isn't as good as the guys around now and showed little consistency over his england career as a whole.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 7:39 am

Ah. I'd forgotten all about may being an idiot and getting a broken nose. Think that was the game where Nowell made the fundamental error of not being a saracen too!

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 8:06 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Soul, lost because Haskell isn't as good as the guys around now and showed little consistency over his england career as a whole.

Tactics and opposition though, easy to say in hindsight but Haskell would have been perfect for that game; tackle anything that moves and hit every ruck you can so basically the PSDT role. Underhill and Curry are more rounded players but sometimes that isn't what you need.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 8:17 am

I think the big changes to make in partially hindsight but kinda felt it at the time marler in lawes out. Wouldn't personally make changes to the back row. Dropping youngs and daly as well would have helped. And telling itoje to stay away from sinckler for the first 10 min!
I'm really interested to see what Jones does against france as their big pack may bring some flashbacks.. the other thing I'm keen to see is how much the match squad changes from start to finish.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 8:17 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Ben's been so unlucky hasn't he. But for that injury right at the start itd probably be him there. I'm still in a bit of disbelief that willis isnt there yet. Christ what we would have done with any of these guys about 8 years ago.

Swings and roundabouts though, what we would have done for someone like Haskell in the world cup final.

I bet the posts were happy

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 8:23 am

king_carlos wrote:I think Zach Mercer will come into the squad when he's fit. Jones picked him as an apprentice player at 20 and capped him at 21. Had Mercer been fit I think he may well have been starting 8 for the 6 Nations once Billy broke his arm again.

Hughes is injured to, so arguably England are missing there first 3 choices. That they have left Dombrant and Simmonds out suggests that Jones is happy enough with those 3 were they available and instead is looking to see how the backrow functions with a different type of player at 8, also recognising that the bench wouldnt usually have a specialist 8 on it. 
England are in a better place now for 8s than they were 8 and 4 years ago at the start of the previous world cup cycles, its really just that they all got injured at once. 

(Annual "what ever happened to Ben Morgan " post)

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England 6 Nations Thread Empty Re: England 6 Nations Thread

Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 8:29 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think the big changes to make in partially hindsight but kinda felt it at the time marler in lawes out. Wouldn't personally make changes to the back row. Dropping youngs and daly as well would have helped. And telling itoje to stay away from sinckler for the first 10 min!
I'm really interested to see what Jones does against france as their big pack may bring some flashbacks.. the other thing I'm keen to see is how much the match squad changes from start to finish.

A lot is made of the scrum and rightly so but the breakdown was a problem too, we couldn't secure fast ball because the likes of PSDT were allowed to slow it all down.

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England 6 Nations Thread Empty Re: England 6 Nations Thread

Post by Khouli Khan on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 9:20 am

[quote="Gooseberry"]
king_carlos wrote:

(Annual "what ever happened to Ben Morgan " post)

Similar to the annual "why hasn't Sinbad been picked for England again" post of some years ago now.

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England 6 Nations Thread Empty Re: England 6 Nations Thread

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 9:31 am

Khouli Khan wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
king_carlos wrote:

(Annual "what ever happened to Ben Morgan " post)

Similar to the annual "why hasn't Sinbad been picked for England again" post of some years ago now.


*Abendanons playing well in France

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Post by bluestonevedder on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 9:44 am

And the Cipriani posts surely

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