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England Getting Four Wins in the Six Nations - A New Thread

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Post by Geordie Sat 16 Dec 2023, 7:57 pm

2 tries for Hartley at 12 .

Fdjour decent first scrum then missed some tackles etc.
Sales two wingers Reed and Roebuck were very impressive....

Bath v Cardiff now...lots of potential England options here.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 16 Dec 2023, 8:09 pm

You mean Opoku-Fordjour?

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Post by Geordie Sat 16 Dec 2023, 8:13 pm

Thats the one

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 16 Dec 2023, 8:16 pm

I'm a bit behind. Just got to where he came on after his predecessor was yellow carded so forgive me for being out of date. He's just got a pen against Porter

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Post by Geordie Sat 16 Dec 2023, 8:41 pm

And that's his best bit

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 16 Dec 2023, 8:48 pm

He was excellent wasn't he. Such a good player.

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Post by Geordie Sat 16 Dec 2023, 9:01 pm

No...he had one good scrum when he came on and pretty anonymous after that. Nothing will convince me he should be in the England 6n squad....

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Post by Geordie Sat 16 Dec 2023, 10:20 pm

Back row...

6 Underhill
7 Earl
8 Barbeary / Mercer

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 17 Dec 2023, 9:21 am

Geordie wrote:No...he had one good scrum when he came on and pretty anonymous after that. Nothing will convince me he should be in the England 6n squad....

Ah right. No disagree entirely.

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Post by mountain man Sun 17 Dec 2023, 9:38 am

Geordie wrote:Back row...

6 Underhill
7 Earl
8 Barbeary  / Mercer

That would be good. C-CS on bench.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 17 Dec 2023, 9:55 am

Baths carrying was absolutely brutal yesterday. As well as checking out the players like Barbeary I hope they've taken note how effectively that can be in creating attacking opportunities and control territory. Underhill Earl and Barbeary is a bit lacking in a lineout option is the only thing.

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Post by mountain man Sun 17 Dec 2023, 10:00 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Baths carrying was absolutely brutal yesterday. As well as checking out the players like Barbeary I hope they've taken note how effectively that can be in creating attacking opportunities and control territory. Underhill Earl and Barbeary is a bit lacking in a lineout option is the only thing.

Hence C-CS whose line out is getting better and better.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun 17 Dec 2023, 10:34 am

Rugby Analyst on YouTube put out two videos identifying talent at each Premiership club. He now has a third video summarizing who he thinks is in contention for an England spot. He sees lots of candidates at open side flanker, scrum-half, outside centre and back three. Very slim pickings at tight-head prop, lock and inside centre. He still includes Arundell in his final XV, perhaps not realizing he isn't available.


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Post by Margin_Walker Sun 17 Dec 2023, 10:46 am

Rugby Fan wrote: He still includes Arundell in his final XV, perhaps not realizing he isn't available.

Finger well and truly not on the pulse there

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sun 17 Dec 2023, 10:55 am

I know that he is not available after the 6N, but we are desperately in need of experience and leadership in the back row, so Ludlam is you man. Plays across the backrow in particularly at the trouble spot, 8,. He is a lineout option and has that never beaten attitude that is needed at this level. He also manages to make yards where others fail with that leg drive technique he has.
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Post by mountain man Sun 17 Dec 2023, 12:28 pm

I agree on Ludlum, I think he has been consistently really good for England I'd be more than happy to see him in starting XV. I'm puzzled why some don't rate him.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 17 Dec 2023, 12:57 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I know that he is not available after the 6N, but we are desperately in need of experience  and leadership in the back row, so Ludlam is you man. Plays across the backrow in particularly at the trouble spot, 8,. He is a lineout option and has that never beaten attitude that is needed at this level. He also manages to make yards where others fail with that leg drive technique he has.

Ludlam isn't staying, he's off to France. As such he should be frozen out the side. We've got experience in the tight five of we need it and Underhill could well be in the backrow adding some there as well.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 17 Dec 2023, 1:58 pm

Probably have Pearson further up than Ludlam. And Fisilau is having a really good season.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sun 17 Dec 2023, 2:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Probably have Pearson further up than Ludlam. And Fisilau is having a really good season.

The reason for my suggestion of Ludlam is the lack of experience in the back row, if we had Curry available, I would agree he is not needed, but we probably won't, Pearson has only played a season and a bit of prem rugby, never mind international rugby, Earl is great but on the smaller side for an 8 and again not experienced, Underhill has spent more time on the side lines than playing. They are all very good players even at International level, but they need leadership, Ludlam can supply that for the 6N until we get Curry back and as I said provides the line out option none of the others do with Lawes retired
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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 17 Dec 2023, 2:23 pm

I get why Ludlam is being suggested and if he was staying I might well agree but he's not so for me he might as well not exist in terms of England selection. Harsh but make an example of him.

Underhill has more caps, is a year younger and could well combine with Earl. There's the option then of playing them with an 8 like T Willis or Mercer or perhaps a bigger flanker like CCS, Pearson or whomever else might be considered as the Lawes successor.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 17 Dec 2023, 2:25 pm

Ben Earl has the same amount of caps as Ludlam.

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Post by Yoda Sun 17 Dec 2023, 3:03 pm

Russ tuima and Greg fusilau looked good against Munster. Tuima looks like a big strong lad who has a great motor. We have the talent to make a good squad. I think all we need is a mixture of youth and experience a little bit of belief and someone to light the fuse. The next ordained captain needs to be the right choice and hopefully Felix Jones puts some much needed coaching experience into fruition.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 17 Dec 2023, 3:57 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:I get why Ludlam is being suggested and if he was staying I might well agree but he's not so for me he might as well not exist in terms of England selection. Harsh but make an example of him.

Underhill has more caps, is a year younger and could well combine with Earl. There's the option then of playing them with an 8 like T Willis or Mercer or perhaps a bigger flanker like CCS, Pearson or whomever else might be considered as the Lawes successor.
Agree, more or less on principle.  But Underhill has a significant injury history.  For some reason the England management (I used that term in lieu of leadership) think Mercer does not have the goods.  I am still not convinced by Willis T.  Barbeary ain't ready.  He can crash into folk with relish, gusto, and violence.  But is still slow to move without the ball, which I am sure he will learn, but that should be at club level.  Still would rather he decided to Hook instead of playing back row.  To me, Ludlum should be in the squad simply he can play 6, 7, 8 all equally well at international level.  And give a bit more time for the young'uns to develop. And in the meantime Pearson gets mentored by Lawes and Ludlum. Not a bad place to develop one's career, eh?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 17 Dec 2023, 4:06 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:I get why Ludlam is being suggested and if he was staying I might well agree but he's not so for me he might as well not exist in terms of England selection. Harsh but make an example of him.

Underhill has more caps, is a year younger and could well combine with Earl. There's the option then of playing them with an 8 like T Willis or Mercer or perhaps a bigger flanker like CCS, Pearson or whomever else might be considered as the Lawes successor.
Agree, more or less on principle.  But Underhill has a significant injury history.  For some reason the England management (I used that term in lieu of leadership) think Mercer does not have the goods.  I am still not convinced by Willis T.  Barbeary ain't ready.  He can crash into folk with relish, gusto, and violence.  But is still slow to move without the ball, which I am sure he will learn, but that should be at club level.  Still would rather he decided to Hook instead of playing back row.  To me, Ludlum should be in the squad simply he can play 6, 7, 8 all equally well at international level.  And give a bit more time for the young'uns to develop.  And in the meantime Pearson gets mentored by Lawes and Ludlum.  Not a bad place to develop one's career, eh?

When not injured Underhill is one of our best flankers though. It's a tough one with him.

Mercer didn't fit with what Borthwick was looking at pre World Cup. He might well have changed his mind given he ended up going with Earl at 8 instead of BillyV. Might provide a shift in thought that gets Mercer back in.

Lawes has retired from international rugby so he won't be there. I still think immediate international isolation needs to be given to those who sign contracts abroad. Itoje and Underhill will be in camp to mentor. Tom Curry might be invited into camp whilst he rehabs to help some of the younger guys. If we want an experienced head in camp Launchbury could be recalled. Ben Curry captains Sale and he could come in to the backrow consideration.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sun 17 Dec 2023, 5:45 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ben Earl has the same amount of caps as Ludlam.

Not talking about caps, talking about maturity and playing as a leader. Ludlam has that in spades.
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Post by Geordie Sun 17 Dec 2023, 8:55 pm

If you go with:
1 Marler
2 George
3 Cole
4 Itoje
7 Underhill

That's a pretty experienced start...and back ups of Genge and Stuart at prop aren't too bad. I've been very critical of Stuart but he seems to-be playing very well...
Earl has prem medals doesn't he? And now a world Cup semi final notch...pretty good experience.
Chessum and Martin are prem winners aren't they? And they are the young guns to partner Itoje...

So it's not too bad....and this is the time to start evolving and bringing in the kids to give them experience....

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 17 Dec 2023, 9:14 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Ben Earl has the same amount of caps as Ludlam.

Not talking about caps, talking about maturity and playing as a leader. Ludlam has that in spades.

Hard to follow a leader that you know doesn't want to stick around.

If we go with;

1. Genge
2. George
3. Cole
4. Itoje
5. Chessum
6. Pearson
7. Underhill
8. Earl

Dan, Marler, Painter, Martin, *pick an in form backrow*

That's a pretty good pack and one that isn't lacking in experience. I'm not a big fan of maintaining the Cole selection but currently I'm not sure any of the other tightheads are making enough of a statement to warrant picking instead.

I'd be tempted to make Genge captain. He's been a leader in the squad for a while and responsibility suits him.

I also like having Marler as impact. He and Painter would add a lot of weight to the set piece at a time in the game where the opposition will be tiring and where regularly the weaker scrummaging props are taking the field.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Dec 2023, 8:20 am

Stuck in a weird middle ground again of sticking with guys past their best and not trusting the next set of players fully.

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Post by Geordie Mon 18 Dec 2023, 8:53 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stuck in a weird middle ground again of sticking with guys past their best and not trusting the next set of players fully.

Who?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Dec 2023, 9:13 am

Marler Cole from this list. Farrell is still in that conversation in the medium term too. Ford to an extent. Watson. Tuilagi and Underhill you could throw in there given their time out. There's a set of young players who are about that level, unproven at this level to an extent but who we could really just say we're backing you now. Just seems we hold back on some guys.

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Post by Geordie Mon 18 Dec 2023, 9:17 am

Ford?? Seriously? With Farrell unavailable you drop Ford...have a word man.

Marler and Cole both the best scrummaging props. Whos next in line...Genge flatters to deceive at times and Stuart or Sinckler...lets not even go there. Although Stuart has looked better in the last two Euro games.

Next in line...Baxter and Brantingham,,,or Painter, Fdjour, Fasogabon...all way back.
So i disagree with you.

Underhill...seriously?

The only one i agree with is Manu.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Dec 2023, 9:21 am

Yeah personally I'd be going with the 2 Smiths. The younger of which we need to cap soon else he'll be Scotland bound. And for the elder I'd be asking him to play fly half rather than full back.

Marler's availability is touch and go but I'd now go with Genge and Baxter; Sinckler and Opoku-Fordjour (at least for Italy and possibly Scotland then assess).
Underhill, yeah, if you worry about the availability of others like Tuilagi he's got to be top of the tree.

There's always a reason to stick with stalwarts, be it the coaches are new so need those they know, it's the WC so you need the experience, really just needs to pull the trigger now. It's not as if the newer guys are lacking in ability.

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Post by Geordie Mon 18 Dec 2023, 9:30 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah personally I'd be going with the 2 Smiths. The younger of which we need to cap soon else he'll be Scotland bound. And for the elder I'd be asking him to play fly half rather than full back.

Marler's availability is touch and go but I'd now go with Genge and Baxter; Sinckler and Opoku-Fordjour (at least for Italy and possibly Scotland then assess).
Underhill, yeah, if you worry about the availability of others like Tuilagi he's got to be top of the tree.

There's always a reason to stick with stalwarts, be it the coaches are new so need those they know, it's the WC so you need the experience, really just needs to pull the trigger now. It's not as if the newer guys are lacking in ability.

i actually think you post things at times just to wind people up...its quite laughable.

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Post by mountain man Mon 18 Dec 2023, 9:31 am

Underhill I'm concerned with for his health not his ability etc given number of concussions he has suffered.

Manu is injury prone as is Watson.

Cole in fairness did better than a lot predicted in RWC but is he up to another year of Int rugby?

Ford absolutely should be in squad, even if Farrell hadn't pulled out. Now though even more important he is there.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Dec 2023, 9:33 am

Nope. Just how I see things that would benefit England very quickly.

Who would be your starting team and bench for the 6 nations then Geordie? Not who you think but who you'd want?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Dec 2023, 9:34 am

mountain man wrote:Underhill I'm concerned with for his health not his ability etc given number of concussions he has suffered.

Manu is injury prone as is Watson.

Cole in fairness did better than a lot predicted in RWC but is he up to another year of Int rugby?

Ford absolutely should be in squad, even if Farrell hadn't pulled out. Now though even more important he is there.

Just think both Smiths are playing better than him at the moment. I am concerned Fin is going to get his head turned.

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Post by mountain man Mon 18 Dec 2023, 9:38 am

Maybe there are but an experienced head at 10 needed, Fin Smith not even capped. Ford has to be in wider squad at least.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Dec 2023, 9:39 am

Always a reason to stick with the stalwart. Yes Fin ain't capped...if he isn't chosen in this squad but Townsend does will we just shrug and say oh well he's not proven yet?

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Post by mountain man Mon 18 Dec 2023, 9:43 am

No reason why F Smith shouldn't be in squad if form continues to warrant selection. Not sure anyone saying he shouldn't be?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Dec 2023, 9:50 am

Fair enough. Dropping Marcus is it? Or would he be at full back or both covering the bench? We 've been bitten before in not capping players others coming in.

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Post by mountain man Mon 18 Dec 2023, 10:00 am

My reasoning is keep options open. You seem to want to omit Ford as he's past it, I'm not convinced of that and as Farrell not included it makes sense for him to be in. Also unless he has a catastrophic drop in form Borthwick will I'm sure include him.

Anyway, let's see how it all develops next month.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Dec 2023, 10:03 am

I'd omit Ford as I think the 2 Smiths are in better form and longer term the better options anyway. And then add in the risk (a very real one) that Scotland will convince Smith to play for them.

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Post by Geordie Mon 18 Dec 2023, 10:06 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nope. Just how I see things that would benefit England very quickly.

Who would be your starting team and bench for the 6 nations then Geordie? Not who you think but who you'd want?

Including injured players as an ideal...or excluding...

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Post by mountain man Mon 18 Dec 2023, 10:14 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd omit Ford as I think the 2 Smiths are in better form and longer term the better options anyway. And then add in the risk (a very real one) that Scotland will convince Smith to play for them.

Maybe but it also depends upon where a player loyalty lies. He might prefer Scotland or decide that it's England he really wants to play for and over his career the chances are England will be winning more than Scotland. Scotland currently have an excellent team but over next 3-10 years that may not be case. If he's sensible he might judge committing to England be better in long term.

All these things and more you would hope the RFU and England coaching staff consider and discuss with prospective Int players.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Dec 2023, 10:17 am

Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Nope. Just how I see things that would benefit England very quickly.

Who would be your starting team and bench for the 6 nations then Geordie? Not who you think but who you'd want?

Including injured players as an ideal...or excluding...

Whichever you prefer. Just interesting to see people's opinions. Without resorting to abuse.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Dec 2023, 10:58 am

mountain man wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd omit Ford as I think the 2 Smiths are in better form and longer term the better options anyway. And then add in the risk (a very real one) that Scotland will convince Smith to play for them.

Maybe but it also depends upon where a player loyalty lies. He might prefer Scotland or decide that it's England he really wants to play for and over his career the chances are England will be winning more than Scotland. Scotland currently have an excellent team but over next 3-10 years that may not be case. If he's sensible he might judge committing to England be better in long term.

All these things and more you would hope the RFU and England coaching staff consider and discuss with prospective Int players.

Well yes things can change quite quickly as players come and go. He'd step into the Scotland squad straight away but would be clear 2nd choice to Russell understandable. He may find it beneficial at this stage of his career to throw his lot in with Scotland. And yes you'd fully hope that the RFU etc are in contact but you never know.

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Post by Geordie Mon 18 Dec 2023, 11:04 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Nope. Just how I see things that would benefit England very quickly.

Who would be your starting team and bench for the 6 nations then Geordie? Not who you think but who you'd want?

Including injured players as an ideal...or excluding...

Whichever you prefer. Just interesting to see people's opinions. Without resorting to abuse.
Abuse? Really?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Dec 2023, 11:19 am

Which are you going for then, injured, uninjured. Still picking Vickery as he must be close to calling it a day?

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Post by Geordie Mon 18 Dec 2023, 11:27 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Which are you going for then, injured, uninjured. Still picking Vickery as he must be close to calling it a day?

He still be a better bet than Fdjour

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Dec 2023, 11:36 am

You'll come round to liking Opoku-Fordjour soon enough!

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