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England Getting Four Wins in the Six Nations - A New Thread

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Post by Geordie Sat 16 Dec 2023, 7:57 pm

First topic message reminder :

2 tries for Hartley at 12 .

Fdjour decent first scrum then missed some tackles etc.
Sales two wingers Reed and Roebuck were very impressive....

Bath v Cardiff now...lots of potential England options here.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 27 Dec 2023, 12:47 pm

Personally wouldn't pick either of them especially in the current system. A midfield of Tuilagi and Slade with Lawrence on the bench could work well. Lawrence in the wider squad. WOuld rather he didn't look to Smith at full back, Carpenter could get a chance, though he's looke a bit shaky in recent weeks.

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Post by Geordie Wed 27 Dec 2023, 12:53 pm

Slade...no thanks. Had more than enough chances ...that ship has sailed.

Lawrence the form 13...has to play. And not at 12.

Was hot on Carpenter but gone off him a bit. Shame Hodge is injured.

9 Spencer
10 Marcus
11 Murley
12 Manu...
13 Lawrence
14 Freeman
15 Steward

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 27 Dec 2023, 12:58 pm

Your revised wish list? or the list you think Borthwick is going with now?

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Post by Geordie Wed 27 Dec 2023, 1:07 pm

My lineup for today...but that will change tomorrow.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 27 Dec 2023, 1:32 pm

I'm surprised you've gone back to Tuilagi then, but he is breaking a lot of tackles.

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Post by Geordie Wed 27 Dec 2023, 2:05 pm

As you know its getting the right balance of power and guile/ skill.

Manu must be eased out over the next 12 months (preferably earlier) ...but if hes playing reasonably well as he is at the moment...hes useful short term foil for Smith at 10 (and allows Lawrence to do his business.)

Ojomoh shows glimpses of real excellence...but then glimpses of not being ready....Atkinson is in a poorly performing team..

Dingwall is the interesting one from me...from what i was reading about him. I also read that despite his frame hes an absolute brick wall when you hit him. See if i can find the article.

The problem is that where lawrence is standing out as THE candidate for 13....none of them are doing it for 12 yet.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 27 Dec 2023, 2:43 pm

I'd be looking towards Lawrence, Ojomoh, Kelly...and frankly Freeman at 13 looks miles better than on the wing.

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Post by Geordie Wed 27 Dec 2023, 2:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd be looking towards Lawrence, Ojomoh, Kelly...and frankly Freeman at 13 looks miles better than on the wing.

Yes i would agree with that.

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Post by Geordie Wed 27 Dec 2023, 3:02 pm

Do you see Lawrence as a 12?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 27 Dec 2023, 3:09 pm

Think he's got the skillset to play there yeah, probably more than Tuilagi had to be fair.

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Post by mountain man Wed 27 Dec 2023, 5:53 pm

Lawrence was really good at 12 when he played there so no reason why not again. Ruling him out playing there seems a bit limiting especially given Manu injury record

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Post by Geordie Wed 27 Dec 2023, 7:31 pm

Not limiting him...just think sometimes we're so quick to look for the next cab off the rank..we haven't even tried the headliner yet...

Lawrence is playing superb rugby...now it maybe that Russell the reason...but Marcus can be the same playmaker.

Freeman may well be the 13 elect for years to come...and Lawrence does have the skills to make a good go at 12.

Ironically in a year or two there could be almighty competition for 12 and 13...simply unheard of.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 27 Dec 2023, 7:44 pm

Geordie wrote:Slade...no thanks. Had more than enough chances ...that ship has sailed.

Lawrence the form 13...has to play. And not at 12.

Was hot on Carpenter but gone off him a bit. Shame Hodge is injured.

9 Spencer
10 Marcus
11 Murley
12 Manu...
13 Lawrence
14 Freeman
15 Steward

I'd expect Borthwick to try and keep some more experience in that backline to be honest. I'm not a big Mitchell fan but I'd expect him to be there. Watson if he can pick up a semblance of form will come onto one wing as well. Manu and Lawrence makes sense, a continuation from the world cup squad in a way there.

10 is up in the air given Ford is out of form, Marcus Smith doesn't appear to have fixed his weaknesses and Fin Smith is very inexperienced despite looking well rounded for a flyhalf of his age.

If Watson doesn't recover enough form I think Roebuck is another that could come in on that right wing.

9. Mitchell
10. ?
11. ?
12. Manu
13. Lawrence
14. Watson
15. Steward

21. Spencer/Quirke/ Warr/JVP (rumours he might make his return early Jan)
22. ?
23. Freeman (his form and utility surely make him a great option)

That 11 spot still feels wide open as well.

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Post by Geordie Wed 27 Dec 2023, 9:49 pm

Think Murley is ready for a shot on the wing.

Watson has been a top winger for Ebgland but we can't keep relying on..IF he's fit.

Time to move on and look at bringing through the next generation.  Murley, Roebuck,  Sleightholme (who has had his own injury issues admittedly), Reed, David etc

I hope that SB will be looking to keep Manu to the short term also as he brings the next gen through or moves Lawrence there.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 27 Dec 2023, 10:00 pm

Ant Watson needs to show some form but if he does he's a certainty. He's 29 with more than 50 caps and a Lions Test player. When you've got a young fullback and a likely rookie wing on the other side then being able to pick someone of the quality and experience of Watson makes sense.

Similar to sticking with Manu at centre. Short term option whilst the rest of the backline settles in. Revolution sounds like a good idea but evolution helps maintain a lot of the organisation, particularly in defence, that helps provide more time to work on cohesion and strike moves in attack.

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Post by Geordie Wed 27 Dec 2023, 10:46 pm

I'm not disputing Watsons credentials Sam just his ability to be available these days.

With that one factor in mind , if we're going for experience I'd rather go for Daly.

I get the Manu selection far more..as he's playing OK and the potential alternatives aren't quite saying "pick me"

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 28 Dec 2023, 12:32 pm

Could just go with Daly and Watson.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 28 Dec 2023, 2:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Could just go with Daly and Watson.
Could. Would agree both would be a safe pair of hands. But that doesn't move us forward. I think there seems to be a lot of younger wing talent who are looking for an opportunity.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 28 Dec 2023, 3:49 pm

Yeah. True. I'm going through the motions doc.

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Post by Geordie Thu 28 Dec 2023, 4:30 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Could just go with Daly and Watson.

🤢

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Post by Geordie Thu 28 Dec 2023, 4:31 pm

Manu out for some of the 6 now...

Cue
12 Lawrence
13 Joseph/ Freeman

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 28 Dec 2023, 4:47 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Could just go with Daly and Watson.
Could.  Would agree both would be a safe pair of hands.  But that doesn't move us forward.  I think there seems to be a lot of younger wing talent who are looking for an opportunity.  

Yeah I'd go for one or the other and pair them with a younger option. Start developing the younger options in a back three with Steward and an experienced winger now and hopefully replace the experienced winger in the summer.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 28 Dec 2023, 4:51 pm

Geordie wrote:Manu out for some of the 6 now...

Cue
12 Lawrence
13 Joseph/ Freeman

Do you see Lawrence as a 12?

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Post by Geordie Thu 28 Dec 2023, 5:00 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Geordie wrote:Manu out for some of the 6 now...

Cue
12 Lawrence
13 Joseph/ Freeman

Do you see Lawrence as a 12?

Down the line very possibly...but not yet.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 28 Dec 2023, 5:14 pm

So hope he delivers this time or just realise there's no one else? Can Borthwicl risk that while people are hoping for 3rd place finishes?

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Post by Geordie Thu 28 Dec 2023, 5:30 pm

In the right set up he will deliver....but this is where competition I'd good..and it will either drive him on...or the newcomers will overtake him..

But thats evolution...and Lawrence is only 23 so let's give him a chance.

Let him play in his best spot at the moment...and develop a 12. It maybe that Lawrence looks better at 12 down the years and rhats fine...but that's a problem you can handle then.

Bath aren't suddenly going to start playing him at 12...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 28 Dec 2023, 6:07 pm

So appreciate its a work I'm progress and hope the other can pick up the loose. Fair enough.

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Post by mountain man Thu 28 Dec 2023, 6:25 pm

Yeah well it was mentioned he is just too injury prone these days. I can see Lawrence at 12. He'll be fine as he was when he played there previously for England.

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Post by Cumbrian Thu 28 Dec 2023, 6:46 pm

With Manu out I'm not really sure that there is much choice at inside centre (even less than usual).  If we don't go for Lawrence at 12, who else is there with any sort of international experience? It isn't like we can shove Farrell in there (and kick the can down the road again).  Lawrence may not be playing in the position for Bath, but at least has played there at international level.  

My biggest worry is that he is going to get injured between now and then (plenty of rugby to be played in that period).
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Post by Geordie Thu 28 Dec 2023, 7:25 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So appreciate its a work I'm progress and hope the other can pick up the loose. Fair enough.

I don't get what your meaning? I know you want Lawrence permanently at 12 and your main man Freeman at 13...but I want the best players at the moment in the best positions...which means Lawrence at 13.

And bath aren't going to move him anytime soon.

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Post by Geordie Thu 28 Dec 2023, 7:28 pm

Cumbrian wrote:With Manu out I'm not really sure that there is much choice at inside centre (even less than usual).  If we don't go for Lawrence at 12, who else is there with any sort of international experience? It isn't like we can shove Farrell in there (and kick the can down the road again).  Lawrence may not be playing in the position for Bath, but at least has played there at international level.  

My biggest worry is that he is going to get injured between now and then (plenty of rugby to be played in that period).

Why does the 12 have to have international experience?
This side is going to have a number of very low experienced players...but there's only one way you increase that.
If they're that bothered...they can pick Ford at 10.

Maybe Look at a club combo of Ojomoh and Lawrence for Italy and Maybe Manu is back after rhat

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Post by Cumbrian Thu 28 Dec 2023, 7:36 pm

Geordie wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:With Manu out I'm not really sure that there is much choice at inside centre (even less than usual).  If we don't go for Lawrence at 12, who else is there with any sort of international experience? It isn't like we can shove Farrell in there (and kick the can down the road again).  Lawrence may not be playing in the position for Bath, but at least has played there at international level.  

My biggest worry is that he is going to get injured between now and then (plenty of rugby to be played in that period).

Why does the 12 have to have international experience?
This side is going to have a number of very low experienced players...but there's only one way you increase that.
If they're that bothered...they can pick Ford at 10.

Maybe Look at a club combo of Ojomoh and Lawrence for Italy and Maybe Manu is back after rhat

I agree that there is going to be relatively little experience in the backline. Which is why I think it is important that at least one of the two centres has some sort of experience of what it is like to play international rugby, because if we go for Joseph or Freeman there will be very little in the other centre berth. Italy could be a real banana skin first up, and I think some form of leadership will be important in the midfield.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 28 Dec 2023, 7:44 pm

Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So appreciate its a work I'm progress and hope the other can pick up the loose. Fair enough.

I don't get what your meaning? I know you want Lawrence permanently at 12 and your main man Freeman at 13...but I want the best players at the moment in the best positions...which means Lawrence at 13.

And bath aren't going to move him anytime soon.

Not sure I want Lawremce at 12 permanently or I've ever said that. Just a question around you wanting him at 12....but wanting him at 14 eventually. Or do you want him at 13 now?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 28 Dec 2023, 7:46 pm

Cumbrian wrote:
Geordie wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:With Manu out I'm not really sure that there is much choice at inside centre (even less than usual).  If we don't go for Lawrence at 12, who else is there with any sort of international experience? It isn't like we can shove Farrell in there (and kick the can down the road again).  Lawrence may not be playing in the position for Bath, but at least has played there at international level.  

My biggest worry is that he is going to get injured between now and then (plenty of rugby to be played in that period).

Why does the 12 have to have international experience?
This side is going to have a number of very low experienced players...but there's only one way you increase that.
If they're that bothered...they can pick Ford at 10.

Maybe Look at a club combo of Ojomoh and Lawrence for Italy and Maybe Manu is back after rhat

I agree that there is going to be relatively little experience in the backline. Which is why I think it is important that at least one of the two centres has some sort of experience of what it is like to play international rugby, because if we go for Joseph or Freeman there will be very little in the other centre berth.  Italy could be a real banana skin first up, and I think some form of leadership will be important in the midfield.  

It very much is a potential banana skin but that could be based much more on tactics and favour towards experience than favouring youth...

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Post by Geordie Thu 28 Dec 2023, 8:07 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So appreciate its a work I'm progress and hope the other can pick up the loose. Fair enough.

I don't get what your meaning? I know you want Lawrence permanently at 12 and your main man Freeman at 13...but I want the best players at the moment in the best positions...which means Lawrence at 13.

And bath aren't going to move him anytime soon.

Not sure I want Lawremce at 12 permanently  or I've ever said that.  Just a question around you wanting him at 12....but wanting him at 14 eventually. Or do you want him at 13 now?

Are you drunk?

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 28 Dec 2023, 8:43 pm

Looks like Tuilagi is injured again. Five or six week with a torn groin muscle. Will miss the start of the Six Nations.

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Post by Geordie Thu 28 Dec 2023, 8:55 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Looks like Tuilagi is injured again.  Five or six week with a torn groin muscle.  Will miss the start of the Six Nations.    
Catch up Doc...that's what we're discussing Very Happy

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Post by Geordie Thu 28 Dec 2023, 9:13 pm

Bevan's Rodd out of the full 6n now aswell...

Marler, Genge, Obano

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 28 Dec 2023, 9:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:
Geordie wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:With Manu out I'm not really sure that there is much choice at inside centre (even less than usual).  If we don't go for Lawrence at 12, who else is there with any sort of international experience? It isn't like we can shove Farrell in there (and kick the can down the road again).  Lawrence may not be playing in the position for Bath, but at least has played there at international level.  

My biggest worry is that he is going to get injured between now and then (plenty of rugby to be played in that period).

Why does the 12 have to have international experience?
This side is going to have a number of very low experienced players...but there's only one way you increase that.
If they're that bothered...they can pick Ford at 10.

Maybe Look at a club combo of Ojomoh and Lawrence for Italy and Maybe Manu is back after rhat

I agree that there is going to be relatively little experience in the backline. Which is why I think it is important that at least one of the two centres has some sort of experience of what it is like to play international rugby, because if we go for Joseph or Freeman there will be very little in the other centre berth.  Italy could be a real banana skin first up, and I think some form of leadership will be important in the midfield.  

It very much is a potential banana skin but that could be based much more on tactics and  favour towards experience than favouring youth...

You want a mix. Favouring one or the other isn't great for us.

We don't want either of;

Care, Ford, Daly, Lawrence, Slade, Watson, Steward

Nor

Quirke, Smith, Murley, Atkinson, Lawrence, Freeman, Steward

Need to find the right balance or form, youth and experience.

Italy are a potential banana skin but it's still got to be a game we expect to win. Given how new the side is going to be then we'll need to go strong straight from the go.


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Post by Geordie Thu 28 Dec 2023, 9:45 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:
Geordie wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:With Manu out I'm not really sure that there is much choice at inside centre (even less than usual).  If we don't go for Lawrence at 12, who else is there with any sort of international experience? It isn't like we can shove Farrell in there (and kick the can down the road again).  Lawrence may not be playing in the position for Bath, but at least has played there at international level.  

My biggest worry is that he is going to get injured between now and then (plenty of rugby to be played in that period).

Why does the 12 have to have international experience?
This side is going to have a number of very low experienced players...but there's only one way you increase that.
If they're that bothered...they can pick Ford at 10.

Maybe Look at a club combo of Ojomoh and Lawrence for Italy and Maybe Manu is back after rhat

I agree that there is going to be relatively little experience in the backline. Which is why I think it is important that at least one of the two centres has some sort of experience of what it is like to play international rugby, because if we go for Joseph or Freeman there will be very little in the other centre berth.  Italy could be a real banana skin first up, and I think some form of leadership will be important in the midfield.  

It very much is a potential banana skin but that could be based much more on tactics and  favour towards experience than favouring youth...

You want a mix. Favouring one or the other isn't great for us.

We don't want either of;

Care, Ford, Daly, Lawrence, Slade, Watson, Steward

Nor

Quirke, Smith, Murley, Atkinson, Lawrence, Freeman, Steward

Need to find the right balance or form, youth and experience.

I agree Ssm...and ideally everyone one in their right positions....

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 28 Dec 2023, 11:45 pm

Geordie wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Looks like Tuilagi is injured again.  Five or six week with a torn groin muscle.  Will miss the start of the Six Nations.    
Catch up Doc...that's what we're discussing Very Happy
Sorry gents. I started reading a discussion about centres, which if we change the names is the same discussion since Greenwood. I thought if I started the discussion at the beginning I would have to go back to 2005!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 29 Dec 2023, 8:55 am

Too much of it is the pairing is never settled or we then use them in a way they don't when they're impressing for their clubs. Lawrence was pretty quickly written off by some after his first few games but we weren't passing to the centres much and still don't. Given that I am surprised we haven't seen a Kelly Slade combo line up yet.

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Post by Rugby Fan Fri 29 Dec 2023, 8:58 am

doctor_grey wrote:
Geordie wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Looks like Tuilagi is injured again.  Five or six week with a torn groin muscle.  Will miss the start of the Six Nations.    
Catch up Doc...that's what we're discussing Very Happy
Sorry gents.  I started reading a discussion about centres, which if we change the names is the same discussion since Greenwood.  I thought if I started the discussion at the beginning I would have to go back to 2005!

That made me look at what happened to Ayoola Erinle. After rugby, he got a first class degree in Engineering & Physics. His last year project was "a mathematical model for the flight of rotating oval shaped balls" with "some work on semi-minor axial rotation (end-over-end) but not that much on semi-major axial rotation (spiral)".

He now works as a Maritime Engineer with the MoD.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 29 Dec 2023, 9:40 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Too much of it is the pairing is never settled or we then use them in a way they don't when they're impressing for their clubs. Lawrence was pretty quickly written off by some after his first few games but we weren't passing to the centres much and still don't. Given that I am surprised we haven't seen a Kelly Slade combo line up yet.

Possibly due to what Geordie has been saying about Lawrence having to adjust to less time and more defensive pressure at 12 than where he normally plays at 13.

If you have no ability to vary your game and need to be in the same structure you have at club rugby then your international career is either not going to happen or is going to be very short.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 29 Dec 2023, 9:54 am

Think people expect too much though in terms of replicating what they do for their club at international level instead of basing assessment on what they're being asked to do and how well they do that.

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Post by Cumbrian Fri 29 Dec 2023, 9:55 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:
Geordie wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:With Manu out I'm not really sure that there is much choice at inside centre (even less than usual).  If we don't go for Lawrence at 12, who else is there with any sort of international experience? It isn't like we can shove Farrell in there (and kick the can down the road again).  Lawrence may not be playing in the position for Bath, but at least has played there at international level.  

My biggest worry is that he is going to get injured between now and then (plenty of rugby to be played in that period).

Why does the 12 have to have international experience?
This side is going to have a number of very low experienced players...but there's only one way you increase that.
If they're that bothered...they can pick Ford at 10.

Maybe Look at a club combo of Ojomoh and Lawrence for Italy and Maybe Manu is back after rhat

I agree that there is going to be relatively little experience in the backline. Which is why I think it is important that at least one of the two centres has some sort of experience of what it is like to play international rugby, because if we go for Joseph or Freeman there will be very little in the other centre berth.  Italy could be a real banana skin first up, and I think some form of leadership will be important in the midfield.  

It very much is a potential banana skin but that could be based much more on tactics and  favour towards experience than favouring youth...

You want a mix. Favouring one or the other isn't great for us.

We don't want either of;

Care, Ford, Daly, Lawrence, Slade, Watson, Steward

Nor

Quirke, Smith, Murley, Atkinson, Lawrence, Freeman, Steward

Need to find the right balance or form, youth and experience.

Italy are a potential banana skin but it's still got to be a game we expect to win. Given how new the side is going to be then we'll need to go strong straight from the go.

Agreed about the mix of experience and youth,  I  wouldn't be against something like:

09. Mitchell
10. Smith
11. Young exciting winger, take your pick.
12. Lawrence
13. Slade
14. Watson
15. Steward

I can appreciate that including Slade would really annoy some, but to me he is having an Indian summer in his career and could help settle the backline and bring through someone like Freeman from the bench.
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 29 Dec 2023, 10:12 am

You could make an argument for just about all of these:

09. Mitchell
10. Smith
11. Young exciting winger, - Hendy
12. Dingwall
13. Freeman
14. Sleightholme
15. Furbank

Would leave Saints a bit short of backs though
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Post by doctor_grey Fri 29 Dec 2023, 1:20 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:You could make an argument for just about all of these:

09. Mitchell
10. Smith
11. Young exciting winger, - Hendy
12. Dingwall
13. Freeman
14. Sleightholme
15. Furbank

Would leave Saints a bit short of backs though
No doubts!

Hendy is injured.  Litchfield is a bit more solid at 16 stone and can play centre or wing  At 21, excellent pace and still developing nicely, as we saw with that game winning score against Gloucester.  

Presumably you have Smith, The Fin at 10 and Smith, The Quin, on the bench?

Funnily enough, your suggestion would be a back line with plenty of attack, whilst omitting the players who can't defend.  On one hand, I would really like to see how this would work.  One would certainly see a much more effective attack, and Dingwall is an effective distributor, attack runner. and defender (he is so much better defensively when he does not need to help cover for Hutchinson). Wish his frame could carry another 10-15 pounds, or more simply, one stone more weight.  On the other hand, this could never happen, and frankly, more and more I want Saints players staying put in Northamptonshire and staying miles away from England for now....  

Last week I found an old DVD with extended highlights of the England 2002 November Internationals, with games against the ABs, Wallabies (back when they were good), and the Boks (back when they were not so good).  It was called 'World Beaters'.  So watched the other day and it was very clear the success of the midfield pairing (Greenwood and Tindall) and how well they played together, almost intuitively knowing where to be.  Haven't seen that from an England 12/13 jersey in a long time.  I recall the skill and game awareness for both, but I had forgotten the extent they were completely compatible players, despite their completely different styles of play.  Lot's of other interesting observations to see how things changed in 21 years, as well, which I will try to sum up at another time.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 29 Dec 2023, 3:31 pm

Doc, I hope you had an enjoyable Christmas, this obviously was a bit tongue in cheek, but it is correct that an argument could be had for all of them as well as Litchfield.

The amazing thing from a Saints perspective is that all bar The Fin came through the Saints academy, Not doing so well in the forwards, but have the Waller brothers, Moon, Coles, Lawes, Lockett and Ludlum plus a few others that came very young.
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Post by Geordie Fri 29 Dec 2023, 3:47 pm

Is Dingwall an option at 12?

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