Re: England Getting Four Wins in the Six Nations - A New Thread

[Geordie]

First topic message reminder :

2 tries for Hartley at 12 .

Fdjour decent first scrum then missed some tackles etc.
Sales two wingers Reed and Roebuck were very impressive....

Bath v Cardiff now...lots of potential England options here.

[Geordie]

You'll come round to liking Opoku-Fordjour soon enough!

Its not a question of not liking him. Id like to see how he does from the start of a game against fresh opposition in the prem and Europe instead of starting him against Ireland and France in a 6n game.

[No 7&1/2]

He's come on a couple of times early doors and won pens straight away. What's your side then?

[Geordie]

He's come on a couple of times early doors and won pens straight away. What's your side then?

Against already fatigued players....i want to see him against full fresh players from the start...

[No 7&1/2]

He's come on a couple of times early doors and won pens straight away. What's your side then?

Against already fatigued players....i want to see him against full fresh players from the start...

Keep an eye out then, he's very impressive. What's your team then? Painter still getting the nod?

[Geordie]

Nah painter is an A team check out.

Impressive at U20 and certain circles...

[No 7&1/2]

Assume you're not going to name your team then? Fair enough if you don't want to put yourself out there.

[Geordie]

Ha ha when have i ever not...odd thing to say

[No 7&1/2]

Ah ok then. Post it now.

[doctor_grey]

Nah painter is an A team check out.

Impressive at U20 and certain circles...

When Painter was with Saints, he always just about delivered, then didn't. Easy to see the potential, and at 25 (I think) he should just be rounding into form as a prop. But Saints still did not make a strong effort to keep him. Would just be cautious about putting too much hope there, though I hope he proves me wrong..

[formerly known as Sam]

Nah painter is an A team check out.

Impressive at U20 and certain circles...

When Painter was with Saints, he always just about delivered, then didn't.  Easy to see the potential, and at 25 (I think) he should just be rounding into form as a prop.  But Saints still did not make a strong effort to keep him.  Would just be cautious about putting too much hope there, though I hope he proves me wrong..    

Looks a transformed player since leaving Saints. He's put on some weight which really suits him and at Chiefs he's playing to his strengths. Saints don't really value the scrum, the props run a bit lighter so they can support the attack more. Painter is always going to be a big bloke and bulking out at Chiefs his scrum work and carrying close to the line looks much stronger. Not going to be an all court prop but there's very few who can be the all court option and still deliver at scrum time.

[Geordie]

I'd go with this for Italy with current injuries and unavailables...

1 Marler
2 George
3 Cole
4 Itoje
5 Chessum
6 Underhill
7 Earl
8 Mercer

9 Mitchell
10 Marcus Smith
11 Murley
12 (Atkinson / Ojomoh)
13 Lawrence
14 Radwan
15 Steward

16 Genge
17 Dan
18 Stuart
19 Martin
20 (Cunningham-South / Pearson)
21 Quirke
22 Ford
23 Freeman

Some players id look at for the A game
1 Baxter/ Brantingham
2 Riley / Dan Frost
3 Painter / Fourjdr/ Fasogabon
4 Alex Coles
7 Pepper / Illone

10 Fin Smith
11 Aaron Reed
12 Hartley
13 Joseph
15 Redshaw / Carpenter

[formerly known as Sam]

Foudjour/ Fasogabon are both very young in terms of the international stage.

Asher Opoku-Fordjour still qualifies for the under 20s. Actually Fasogbon does as well. We need to be managing these guys carefully over a period of time not throwing them into international rugby, even if Portugal might not be the biggest of sides. They are 19 they've got long careers ahead of them, no need to rush them in early.

Looking at the A side of be tempted towards;

1. Baxter
2. Langdon
3. Heyes
4. Hammond
5. Moon
6. CCS
7. Evans
8. Barbeary
9. Warr
10. F Smith
11. Radwan
12. Dingwall (C)
13. Joseph
14. Roebuck
15. Carpenter

Frost, Brantingham, P Hill, Coles, Fisilau, Randall, Bailey, Ojomoh/Kelly.

Something like that. Young, form and those at threat from possibly being capped elsewhere. We might see a few move down from the senior squad to play.

[Geordie]

I appreciate The two young tihght heads are young but we're really short of good tight heads and a slow introduction to the A game might be useful...they're not near the full squad....

Radwan is senior squad or not at all. We know what he can do. Look st Aaron Reed or someone Instead...

[No 7&1/2]

Bar the front row would love to see that team.

[doctor_grey]

Foudjour/ Fasogabon are both very young in terms of the international stage.

Asher Opoku-Fordjour still qualifies for the under 20s. Actually Fasogbon does as well. We need to be managing these guys carefully over a period of time not throwing them into international rugby, even if Portugal might not be the biggest of sides. They are 19 they've got long careers ahead of them, no need to rush them in early.

Looking at the A side of be tempted towards;

1. Baxter
2. Langdon
3. Heyes
4. Hammond
5. Moon
6. CCS
7. Evans
8. Barbeary
9. Warr
10. F Smith
11. Radwan
12. Dingwall (C)
13. Joseph
14. Roebuck
15. Carpenter

Frost, Brantingham, P Hill, Coles, Fisilau, Randall, Bailey, Ojomoh/Kelly.

Something like that. Young, form and those at threat from possibly being capped elsewhere. We might see a few move down from the senior squad to play.

By the way, at Saints some of the players nicknamed Dingwall 'M1', because he has two hard shoulders, talking about how he goes into contact on either side of the ball.  I presume they missed the irony of naming someone after Britain's longest car park....

[formerly known as Sam]

I appreciate The two young tight heads are young but we're really short of good tight heads and a slow introduction to the A game might be useful...they're not near the full squad....

We are short of tightheads but no so short we need to be bypassing the common development route to senior international rugby. There's a whole Junior 6N campaign for them to play in. Ideally to gel with the rest of the squad for the JWC where we might get a decent result for the first time in a while.

Senior tighthead wise Stuart, Sinckler, Cole, Heyes and Painter are all in the picture. Form might be a bit questionable for some. Paul Hill and Trevor Davison might yet get recalls if form dictates. I'm not sure we're at a position to hit the panic button and start selecting 19 year olds. Maybe for a cameo off the bench but if that's all they'll play they might as well stay with the under 20s.

[doctor_grey]

I appreciate The two young tight heads are young but we're really short of good tight heads and a slow introduction to the A game might be useful...they're not near the full squad....

We are short of tightheads but no so short we need to be bypassing the common development route to senior international rugby. There's a whole Junior 6N campaign for them to play in. Ideally to gel with the rest of the squad for the JWC where we might get a decent result for the first time in a while.

Senior tighthead wise Stuart, Sinckler, Cole, Heyes and Painter are all in the picture. Form might be a bit questionable for some. Paul Hill and Trevor Davison might yet get recalls if form dictates. I'm not sure we're at a position to hit the panic button and start selecting 19 year olds. Maybe for a cameo off the bench but if that's all they'll play they might as well stay with the under 20s.

I agree with both of you, we do not need to be selecting 19 year olds, most especially in the front row.  A 19 year old's body has not stopped developing and in the pack - front row really - I think is a poor decision.   Back in the day when the mantra was if a player was good enough, they were old enough, is another one of those things to get out of Rugby.  

Of course, everyone grows and develops at different rates and different ages, so there will always be exceptions, but overall let's let the players develop at a sane rate which will help their overall development and likely help extend their careers. Especially in positions taking the strain of a front row.

[No 7&1/2]

I appreciate The two young tight heads are young but we're really short of good tight heads and a slow introduction to the A game might be useful...they're not near the full squad....

We are short of tightheads but no so short we need to be bypassing the common development route to senior international rugby. There's a whole Junior 6N campaign for them to play in. Ideally to gel with the rest of the squad for the JWC where we might get a decent result for the first time in a while.

Senior tighthead wise Stuart, Sinckler, Cole, Heyes and Painter are all in the picture. Form might be a bit questionable for some. Paul Hill and Trevor Davison might yet get recalls if form dictates. I'm not sure we're at a position to hit the panic button and start selecting 19 year olds. Maybe for a cameo off the bench but if that's all they'll play they might as well stay with the under 20s.

Not so much a panic button as recognising that a guy like Opoku-Fordjour is out scrummaging his rivals.

[No 7&1/2]

I appreciate The two young tight heads are young but we're really short of good tight heads and a slow introduction to the A game might be useful...they're not near the full squad....

We are short of tightheads but no so short we need to be bypassing the common development route to senior international rugby. There's a whole Junior 6N campaign for them to play in. Ideally to gel with the rest of the squad for the JWC where we might get a decent result for the first time in a while.

Senior tighthead wise Stuart, Sinckler, Cole, Heyes and Painter are all in the picture. Form might be a bit questionable for some. Paul Hill and Trevor Davison might yet get recalls if form dictates. I'm not sure we're at a position to hit the panic button and start selecting 19 year olds. Maybe for a cameo off the bench but if that's all they'll play they might as well stay with the under 20s.

I agree with both of you, we do not need to be selecting 19 year olds, most especially in the front row.  A 19 year old's body has not stopped developing and in the pack - front row really - I think is a poor decision.   Back in the day when the mantra was if a player was good enough, they were old enough, is another one of those things to get out of Rugby.  

Of course, everyone grows and develops at different rates and different ages, so there will always be exceptions, but overall let's let the players develop at a sane rate which will help their overall development and likely help extend their careers.  Especially in positions taking the strain of a front row.

Then that also counts for anyone coming through the club game.

[Cumbrian]

I think Opoku-Fordjour will be our starting tight-head in a couple of years time, but I also think we need him to have a long international career.  I'd have in the England camp, but wouldn't have him playing.  I think he is someone we really need to look after and nurture.

[formerly known as Sam]

I appreciate The two young tight heads are young but we're really short of good tight heads and a slow introduction to the A game might be useful...they're not near the full squad....

We are short of tightheads but no so short we need to be bypassing the common development route to senior international rugby. There's a whole Junior 6N campaign for them to play in. Ideally to gel with the rest of the squad for the JWC where we might get a decent result for the first time in a while.

Senior tighthead wise Stuart, Sinckler, Cole, Heyes and Painter are all in the picture. Form might be a bit questionable for some. Paul Hill and Trevor Davison might yet get recalls if form dictates. I'm not sure we're at a position to hit the panic button and start selecting 19 year olds. Maybe for a cameo off the bench but if that's all they'll play they might as well stay with the under 20s.

I agree with both of you, we do not need to be selecting 19 year olds, most especially in the front row.  A 19 year old's body has not stopped developing and in the pack - front row really - I think is a poor decision.   Back in the day when the mantra was if a player was good enough, they were old enough, is another one of those things to get out of Rugby.  

Of course, everyone grows and develops at different rates and different ages, so there will always be exceptions, but overall let's let the players develop at a sane rate which will help their overall development and likely help extend their careers.  Especially in positions taking the strain of a front row.

Then that also counts for anyone coming through the club game.

Not everyone coming through the club game puts as much strain on their body as a tighthead prop. At 19 their bodies are still developing. Managing playing time and the amount of strain being applied at such a tender age is a careful balancing act.

I really would leave him to the under 20s for the 6N and in the summer. Then look at an apprentice place in the squad for the AIs.

[No 7&1/2]

He's currently propping against guys like Porter and Marler. Propping against Italy ain't as difficult as that. I'd avoid France, Ireland and the tour to NZ.

[mountain man]

I don't see there's any issue with playing a 19 year old. If he's up to it play him. I'm sure club etc medical staff would advise if any doubts.

Like so many things on here, all we can do is give an opinion. I'd like to think those really in the know(player, coaches, club, medical staff) would know best.

[formerly known as Sam]

He's currently propping against guys like Porter and Marler. Propping against Italy ain't as difficult as that. I'd avoid France, Ireland and the tour to NZ.

It's not who, it's how often he's scrummaging against fully developed adults though. It's why Sale will no doubt rotate him out of the squad once Carpenter and Schonert are back for again. They'll want him to gain experience but not play week in week out. It's also why he's unlikely to start games. Keep the load on his body low whilst also bringing in his experience.

[Geordie]

Whats the crack with Hayes at the moment Sam?

[formerly known as Sam]

Whats the crack with Hayes at the  moment Sam?

Heyes is doing alright. Not pulling up trees but not playing badly either. His scrum work is becoming more reliable, he still has a tendency to extend to far with his legs back which shorter technical looseheads will try and target but he's a big and strong bloke so generally does well. Could perhaps make the squad or start for the A team but not sure he's pushing into the 23 currently.

[No 7&1/2]

He's currently propping against guys like Porter and Marler. Propping against Italy ain't as difficult as that. I'd avoid France, Ireland and the tour to NZ.

It's not who, it's how often he's scrummaging against fully developed adults though. It's why Sale will no doubt rotate him out of the squad once Carpenter and Schonert are back for again. They'll want him to gain experience but not play week in week out. It's also why he's unlikely to start games. Keep the load on his body low whilst also bringing in his experience.

Play him on the bench and you're admitting you're willing to play him from the start.

[Geordie]

So squad announced Jan 4th....

Cant see there being any major changes / surprises bar the enforced ones...

Hopefully he just goes for Smith at 10 now... (Probably Smith - Manu - Lawrence for the 6n)

Hooker...3rd spot probably up for grabs....Walker / Langdon etc?
SH....A few options...Quirke playing well, Spencer on fire...
Centre....a few young hopefuls behind Manu and Lawrence (really hope Manu is just short term now)
Winger...a few positions up for grabs...

The core will very much remain the same.

[formerly known as Sam]

I'd agree with Smith at 10 but I'd probably opt for Fin over Marcus. Just seems to have a more rounded game at present.

[No 7&1/2]

Both playing better than Ford. However Sale are probably the nearest to the England team in style.

[mountain man]

Unless he is injured I'd be really surprised if Ford not involved. Not that he necessarily should be unless form says so but fact Borthwick sees/saw him as his 10 means I'd be stunned if he wasn't in squad.
As 7.5 says, Sale are similar to Eng in playing style under Borthwick.

If we get Smiths M and F as starting/bench 10s for 6N that would be a surprise. I'd like to see it but then again Marcus has never really nailed it at 10 in an Eng shirt. So far.

[Geordie]

If Marcus Smith is ever to get the chance for that Starting 10 spot its now. If he doesnt get it...and say Ford and Fin get the squad spot over him with Marcus fluttering around at FB..he wont get another chance.

[No 7&1/2]

I'd still say that Smith has played well for England, it's just we're used to see him doing extraordinary things for his club and we're not trying to play like that on the whole. You don't finish top points scorer in the 6Ns if you've struggled that much, but he plays within himself. Wouldn't be surprised should we see Smith at full back and Steward as a winger.

[mountain man]

That might be problem, Borthwick has Marcus on bench to cover 10/15. Unlikely he would then start Fin so Ford starts at 10?

[No 7&1/2]

Yeah Fin and Ford really only cover the 1 position so Smith makes more sense from that perspective. Though there are more and more players who theoretically cover multiple positions. If we see the likes of Watson who can cover wing and full back, Daly (whose injured I think but should be back) covers 13, wing and full back kind of, Malins who covers wing and full back (to some people) you could get away with 2 out and out fly havles.

[Geordie]

The thing about Marcus is that he will have to change his style a little...regardless who was Manager. Even Dan Carter had to change his game...international rugby is a different animal.

BUT
I feel that Marcus CAN play the controlling game now aswell...and then have the ability to go off plan when required and the opportunity is there. Hopefully Felix Jones will have a word in SBs ear and say ...run with it for the 6n.

[Geordie]

Yeah Fin and Ford really only cover the 1 position so Smith makes more sense from that perspective. Though there are more and more players who theoretically cover multiple positions. If we see the likes of Watson who can cover wing and full back, Daly (whose injured I think but should be back) covers 13, wing and full back kind of, Malins who covers wing and full back (to some people) you could get away with 2 out and out fly havles.

I really hope we see neither Watson nor Malins in this squad. Watson purely down to his lack of availability now....and Malins as hes proven not good enough for this level.

We have plenty of quality young wingers (unproven yes) and they need to be given the chance now to prove themselves.

[No 7&1/2]

Well he has played the controlling game with England. He got criticised for not creating a try with his first touch from the bench too. Every time he made half a break and wasn't supported he should have passed etc. Ironically you also have a guy like Farrell who is naturally more conservative but one of the best passing fly halves around for a decade get criticised for also playing to the tactics.

Yup, there are plenty of choices available who are impressing in the prem and in Europe.

[mountain man]

Personally I wouldn't have Manu or Watson play for Eng again. Best years long gone and far too injury prone.

[Geordie]

Watson yes...but Manu i get short term due to the competition.

Atkinson...not staring...but Gloucester are poor
Ojomoh...not makng that Bath 12 shirt his yet...
Hartley...a bit further behind but played some good games for Sarries when hes been given the chance.
Kelly - Playing 13 for Tigers...and not starring...

Dingwall at 12? Maybe

What about Furbank coming back...?

[No 7&1/2]

You doubt Malins but want Furbank?

And what in midfield?

[Geordie]

Where did i say i WANT Furbank back?

I said...what about Furbank coming back...as in...is there a possibility? Hes playing exceptionally well for Saints, very good in attack, looks to have bulked a bit and his defence is rock solid aswell...he had Esterhuizen in his pocket when they played Quins a few weeks back.

Someone like that would be appealing to SB.

[mountain man]

If no Manu then Lawrence is the 12. Maybe Freeman gets a look at 13?

[No 7&1/2]

Where did i say i WANT Furbank back?

I said...what about Furbank coming back...as in...is there a possibility? Hes playing exceptionally well for Saints, very good in attack, looks to have bulked a bit and his defence is rock solid aswell...he had Esterhuizen in his pocket when they played Quins a few weeks back.  

Someone like that would be appealing to SB.

There always the possilbility that more selection errors will be made!

[mountain man]

I wouldn't say Furbank had Esterhuizen in his pocket, he put in a couple of excellent hits on him though.

Furbank is playing really well but he was frankly awful in an Eng shirt bar one game in a losing cause(France?).

I'd just be really disappointed if he was best available. And where is he playing? He's not a Int 10 and if it's 15 what about Steward and Smith?

[Geordie]

If no Manu then Lawrence is the 12. Maybe Freeman gets a look at 13?

NO.....Lawrence is a 13..playing outstanding rugby.....leave him there and find a 12.

[Geordie]

Where did i say i WANT Furbank back?

I said...what about Furbank coming back...as in...is there a possibility? Hes playing exceptionally well for Saints, very good in attack, looks to have bulked a bit and his defence is rock solid aswell...he had Esterhuizen in his pocket when they played Quins a few weeks back.  

Someone like that would be appealing to SB.

There always the possilbility that more selection errors will be made!

I wouldnt see that as an error. ...

[Geordie]

I wouldn't say Furbank had Esterhuizen in his pocket, he put in a couple of excellent hits on him though.

Furbank is playing really well but he was frankly awful in an Eng shirt bar one game in a losing cause(France?).

I'd just be really disappointed if he was best available. And where is he playing? He's not a Int 10 and if it's 15 what about Steward and Smith?

Can players not improve? Furbank is a skilled player with a strong defence and strong kicking game. Whats not to like?

[No 7&1/2]

I wouldn't say Furbank had Esterhuizen in his pocket, he put in a couple of excellent hits on him though.

Furbank is playing really well but he was frankly awful in an Eng shirt bar one game in a losing cause(France?).

I'd just be really disappointed if he was best available. And where is he playing? He's not a Int 10 and if it's 15 what about Steward and Smith?

Can players not improve? Furbank is a skilled player with a strong defence and strong kicking game. Whats not to like?

It was his decision making that really let him down, as well as a bit of bottle.

[Geordie]

I wouldn't say Furbank had Esterhuizen in his pocket, he put in a couple of excellent hits on him though.

Furbank is playing really well but he was frankly awful in an Eng shirt bar one game in a losing cause(France?).

I'd just be really disappointed if he was best available. And where is he playing? He's not a Int 10 and if it's 15 what about Steward and Smith?

Can players not improve? Furbank is a skilled player with a strong defence and strong kicking game. Whats not to like?

It was his decision making that really let him down, as well as a bit of bottle.

Well all looks much improved. Maybe the player Eddie Jones saw in there is coming through.
Of course it could be Dingwall aswell...apparently hes an absolute leader and tactically very savy player on the pitch.

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