Re: England Getting Four Wins in the Six Nations - A New Thread

[Geordie]

First topic message reminder :

2 tries for Hartley at 12 .

Fdjour decent first scrum then missed some tackles etc.
Sales two wingers Reed and Roebuck were very impressive....

Bath v Cardiff now...lots of potential England options here.

[No 7&1/2]

Again. For me he is. The guys you name have a chunk ofb questions. Only really Stuart and Cole are in his current class though. Collier I really liked for a long time but always seemed to pick up injuries when he looked to be in contention,and always second to his club mate of the time.

And I don't mind to start that war if it benefits England.

[formerly known as Sam]

Again. For me he is. The guys you name have a chunk ofb questions. Only really Stuart and Cole are in his current class though. Collier I really liked for a long time but always seemed to pick up injuries when he looked to be in contention,and always second to his club mate of the time.

And I don't mind to start that war if it benefits England.

It won't benefit England when the Prem sides don't just get walloped away from home in European competition.

It won't benefit England when we can't have players for training weeks outside of international windows or agreed rest weeks with their clubs.

It won't help England to be at war with the top tier professional sides because you know there will be years on ongoing tit for tat that will stop the game growing in this country.

[Geordie]

Uncalled for again Geordie. Saying Sinckler is our best tighthead isn't nonsense at all. Questioning whether we can afford to maintain the ban on selecting foreign based players isn't illogical given the growing number either.

Ita complete drivel as you know it. Slow Sunday so your in wind up mode.

Hopefully this means he's not in thw squad.

[No 7&1/2]

Bizarre to think that suggesting Sinckler is our best tight head is trolling. I assume you saying he shouldn't be in the squad is just plain common sense? But fair enough you've nailed your colours to the mast,if Borthwick picks him it's a mistake.

[No 7&1/2]

Again. For me he is. The guys you name have a chunk ofb questions. Only really Stuart and Cole are in his current class though. Collier I really liked for a long time but always seemed to pick up injuries when he looked to be in contention,and always second to his club mate of the time.

And I don't mind to start that war if it benefits England.

It won't benefit England when the Prem sides don't just get walloped away from home in European competition.

It won't benefit England when we can't have players for training weeks outside of international windows or agreed rest weeks with their clubs.

It won't help England to be at war with the top tier professional sides because you know there will be years on ongoing tit for tat that will stop the game growing in this country.

Depends surely on how prominent and important any potential england players are I'm the respective teams?it's obviously more ideal that there are loads on the winning side but of course you can still perform well in a losing cause. The rest weekends are a big benefit that is lost but when more of your promising and best players are saying its either that or lose them them then i think you've got to reconsider.

[Geordie]

And there you go with your manipulation again...twisting it again to make out someone else is wrong for having a different veiw to you...Great debating....

[No 7&1/2]

And there you go with your manipulation again...twisting it again to make out someone else is wrong for having a different veiw to you...Great debating....

What have I twisted exactly?

It's you who has said my opinion is drivel. Not too sure why.

[Geordie]

And there you go with your manipulation again...twisting it again to make out someone else is wrong for having a different veiw to you...Great debating....

What have I twisted exactly?

It's you who has said my opinion is drivel. Not too sure why.

Because your claiming a player who has been so far away from being a top player for years is our best player in his position. Give me reasons....why you believe that...

It's like the Furbank argument. You despair at the the thought of him coming back in due to his previous England stint. Then now rhay he's getting MOTM every week with Freeman you claim it wasn't about his skill set it's his game management...which again seems strange to me given his current performances...

[No 7&1/2]

And there you go with your manipulation again...twisting it again to make out someone else is wrong for having a different veiw to you...Great debating....

What have I twisted exactly?

It's you who has said my opinion is drivel. Not too sure why.

Because your claiming a player who has been so far away from being a top player for years is our best player in his position.  Give me reasons....why you believe that...

It's like the Furbank argument.  You despair at the the thought of him coming back in due to his previous England stint. Then now rhay he's getting MOTM every week with Freeman you claim it wasn't about his skill set it's his game management...which again seems strange to me given his current performances...

Because like Itoje even when not at the top of his game he's still better than the best of our options. His scrummaging has gone down a notch but so did everyone's and then you hear that england when they had Proudfoot weren't even training their scrummaging... I give him a bit of a break along with the rest of our scrum.

In the loose he is comfortably the best prop we have perhaps bar Genge. But even then passing wise he's even beyond what Vunipola was for us. It's that which is being underutilised. With Jones you often saw Sinckler standing in at first receiver on 3rd or 4th phase. Drawing and passing etc. Since Borthwick it's generally kicked after before we get to that point.

Re Furbank as I've said pretty much since he came into England it's been his mindset that let's him down. If you don't remember that go back to those first england games and remind yourself of my comments. The fact that he's come out this week and said that that's what's held him back so far as well reinforces rather than disputes my point.

But if these are the points you think are drivel while you say if Borthwick picks Sinckler in the squad it's a mistake I'm still comfortable with my viewpoint.

[formerly known as Sam]

Itoje is a generational talent. Hia below par is generally as good as most other players 7/10.

Sinckler is not a generational talent. He's a mobile and skillful prop who's fundamentals and fitness have suffered for some time. Borthwick is a man who values the fundamentals in the tight five so Sinckler has found himself as the bench impact option.

Borthwick can't be to blame if Sinckler cannot find another substantial contract in the Prem having amassed a pretty poor 52 games in four and a half season for Bristol. Especially when he's been on a salary rumoured in excess of £400k. If Sinckler needs to move abroad to earn what he needs to earn good luck to him but there's a price for that and it's international exile.

Time to blood the next generation of props.

[No 7&1/2]

Itoje is a generational talent. Hia below par is generally as good as most other players 7/10.

Sinckler is not a generational talent. He's a mobile and skillful prop who's fundamentals and fitness have suffered for some time. Borthwick is a man who values the fundamentals in the tight five so Sinckler has found himself as the bench impact option.

Borthwick can't be to blame if Sinckler cannot find another substantial contract in the Prem having amassed a pretty poor 52 games in four and a half season for Bristol. Especially when he's been on a salary rumoured in excess of £400k. If Sinckler needs to move abroad to earn what he needs to earn good luck to him but there's a price for that and it's international exile.

Time to blood the next generation of props.

You're leaping into the unknown into his thinking as much as me there Sam.

But I agree Cole shouldn't be picked.

I don't think there's going to be many surprises at tight head anyway. Would think the same 3 will be in the squad. 6 is probably the most interesting. Root's sounds like he may be in the driving seat?Martin maybe.

[king_carlos]

It's great news that Roots is EQP. A really good player.

The Monday between the final two Euro rounds has been when England have named initial Six Nations squads for a few years now. Generally around a 36-man group plus players rehabbing with the squad who might regain fitness in time.

I'd go for:

1.Rodd, Brantingham, Obano
2.George, Langdon, Dan
3.Cole, Sinckler, Stuart
4.Itoje, Martin
5.Chessum, Coles
6.Roots, B Curry
7.Underhill, Pearson
8.Earl, Mercer, Barbeary

9.Mitchell, Quirke, Warr
10.Ford, M Smith, F Smith

11.Freeman, Roebuck
12.Lawrence, Dingwall
13.Daly, Slade
14.Murley, Feyi-Wabosi
15.Steward, Malins

Genge, Marler, Ludlam and Watson the obvious ones I'd have with the group for rehab.

If Barbeary gets a citing/ban then I'd take Greg Fisilau as the replacement. He's impressed me every time I've seen him this season.

Thinking forward to the Italy fixture, I'm increasingly liking the idea of using all three of Itoje/Martin/Chessum at 4/5/6, then Underhill and Earl at 7 and 8. I'd also be really tempted by a 6-2 split, then giving a couple of back rows such as Pearson and Barbeary a decent runout as impact subs.

[Geordie]

Itoje is a generational talent. Hia below par is generally as good as most other players 7/10.

Sinckler is not a generational talent. He's a mobile and skillful prop who's fundamentals and fitness have suffered for some time. Borthwick is a man who values the fundamentals in the tight five so Sinckler has found himself as the bench impact option.

Borthwick can't be to blame if Sinckler cannot find another substantial contract in the Prem having amassed a pretty poor 52 games in four and a half season for Bristol. Especially when he's been on a salary rumoured in excess of £400k. If Sinckler needs to move abroad to earn what he needs to earn good luck to him but there's a price for that and it's international exile.

Time to blood the next generation of props.

You're leaping into the unknown into his thinking as much as me there Sam.

But I agree Cole shouldn't be picked.

I don't think there's going to be many surprises at tight head anyway. Would think the same 3 will be in the squad. 6 is probably the most interesting. Root's sounds like he may be in the driving seat?Martin maybe.

Where did Sam say that? Your manipulating what people say once again....

[Geordie]

Roots ..no thanks....

[Geordie]

And there you go with your manipulation again...twisting it again to make out someone else is wrong for having a different veiw to you...Great debating....

What have I twisted exactly?

It's you who has said my opinion is drivel. Not too sure why.

Because your claiming a player who has been so far away from being a top player for years is our best player in his position.  Give me reasons....why you believe that...

It's like the Furbank argument.  You despair at the the thought of him coming back in due to his previous England stint. Then now rhay he's getting MOTM every week with Freeman you claim it wasn't about his skill set it's his game management...which again seems strange to me given his current performances...

Because like Itoje even when not at the top of his game he's still better than the best of our options. His scrummaging has gone down a notch but so did everyone's and then you hear that england when they had Proudfoot weren't even training their scrummaging... I give him a bit of a break along with the rest of our scrum.

In the loose he is comfortably the best prop we have perhaps bar Genge. But even then passing wise he's even beyond what Vunipola was for us. It's that which is being underutilised. With Jones you often saw Sinckler standing in at first receiver on 3rd or 4th phase. Drawing and passing etc. Since Borthwick it's generally kicked after before we get to that point.

Re Furbank as I've said pretty much since he came into England it's been his mindset that let's him down. If you don't remember that go back to those first england games and remind yourself of my comments. The fact that he's come out this week and said that that's what's held him back so far as well reinforces rather than disputes my point.

But if these are the points you think are drivel while you say if Borthwick picks Sinckler in the squad it's a mistake I'm still comfortable with my viewpoint.

Your comparing Sinckler to Itoje??
Bahahahahahahahahahahahahah

The most laughable thing you've ever said on here.

[No 7&1/2]

It's great news that Roots is EQP. A really good player.

The Monday between the final two Euro rounds has been when England have named initial Six Nations squads for a few years now. Generally around a 36-man group plus players rehabbing with the squad who might regain fitness in time.

I'd go for:

1.Rodd, Brantingham, Obano
2.George, Langdon, Dan
3.Cole, Sinckler, Stuart
4.Itoje, Martin
5.Chessum, Coles
6.Roots, B Curry
7.Underhill, Pearson
8.Earl, Mercer, Barbeary

9.Mitchell, Quirke, Warr
10.Ford, M Smith, F Smith

11.Freeman, Roebuck
12.Lawrence, Dingwall
13.Daly, Slade
14.Murley, Feyi-Wabosi
15.Steward, Malins

Genge, Marler, Ludlam and Watson the obvious ones I'd have with the group for rehab.

If Barbeary gets a citing/ban then I'd take Greg Fisilau as the replacement. He's impressed me every time I've seen him this season.

Thinking forward to the Italy fixture, I'm increasingly liking the idea of using all three of Itoje/Martin/Chessum at 4/5/6, then Underhill and Earl at 7 and 8. I'd also be really tempted by a 6-2 split, then giving a couple of back rows such as Pearson and Barbeary a decent runout as impact subs.

Fisilau has had a class start to the season,as had Tuima,wouldn't mind him ahead of Coles. Whisper it,Ewels has also come back really strongly.

[No 7&1/2]

Itoje is a generational talent. Hia below par is generally as good as most other players 7/10.

Sinckler is not a generational talent. He's a mobile and skillful prop who's fundamentals and fitness have suffered for some time. Borthwick is a man who values the fundamentals in the tight five so Sinckler has found himself as the bench impact option.

Borthwick can't be to blame if Sinckler cannot find another substantial contract in the Prem having amassed a pretty poor 52 games in four and a half season for Bristol. Especially when he's been on a salary rumoured in excess of £400k. If Sinckler needs to move abroad to earn what he needs to earn good luck to him but there's a price for that and it's international exile.

Time to blood the next generation of props.

You're leaping into the unknown into his thinking as much as me there Sam.

But I agree Cole shouldn't be picked.

I don't think there's going to be many surprises at tight head anyway. Would think the same 3 will be in the squad. 6 is probably the most interesting. Root's sounds like he may be in the driving seat?Martin maybe.

Where did Sam say that? Your manipulating what people say once again....

Sam said it's time to blood the next generation. I. Not sure it takes much manipulating to suggest Cole isn't in that group.

[Geordie]

Tuima considering Fiji apparently.

I cant stop thinking SB will go a lock at 6 so Chessum or Alex Coles with Ted Hill not available...

[No 7&1/2]

And there you go with your manipulation again...twisting it again to make out someone else is wrong for having a different veiw to you...Great debating....

What have I twisted exactly?

It's you who has said my opinion is drivel. Not too sure why.

Because your claiming a player who has been so far away from being a top player for years is our best player in his position.  Give me reasons....why you believe that...

It's like the Furbank argument.  You despair at the the thought of him coming back in due to his previous England stint. Then now rhay he's getting MOTM every week with Freeman you claim it wasn't about his skill set it's his game management...which again seems strange to me given his current performances...

Because like Itoje even when not at the top of his game he's still better than the best of our options. His scrummaging has gone down a notch but so did everyone's and then you hear that england when they had Proudfoot weren't even training their scrummaging... I give him a bit of a break along with the rest of our scrum.

In the loose he is comfortably the best prop we have perhaps bar Genge. But even then passing wise he's even beyond what Vunipola was for us. It's that which is being underutilised. With Jones you often saw Sinckler standing in at first receiver on 3rd or 4th phase. Drawing and passing etc. Since Borthwick it's generally kicked after before we get to that point.

Re Furbank as I've said pretty much since he came into England it's been his mindset that let's him down. If you don't remember that go back to those first england games and remind yourself of my comments. The fact that he's come out this week and said that that's what's held him back so far as well reinforces rather than disputes my point.

But if these are the points you think are drivel while you say if Borthwick picks Sinckler in the squad it's a mistake I'm still comfortable with my viewpoint.

Your comparing Sinckler to Itoje??
Bahahahahahahahahahahahahah

The most laughable thing you've ever said on here.

In terms of him being under par for himself and still better than a host of other options absolutely. Not sure that is again outrageous to say,even you not so long ago was saying Itoje would be dropped by England shortly so it's not as if itoje holds such a lofty place in your opinion that we're not allowed to compare him to mortals.

[Geordie]

Itoje is a generational talent. Hia below par is generally as good as most other players 7/10.

Sinckler is not a generational talent. He's a mobile and skillful prop who's fundamentals and fitness have suffered for some time. Borthwick is a man who values the fundamentals in the tight five so Sinckler has found himself as the bench impact option.

Borthwick can't be to blame if Sinckler cannot find another substantial contract in the Prem having amassed a pretty poor 52 games in four and a half season for Bristol. Especially when he's been on a salary rumoured in excess of £400k. If Sinckler needs to move abroad to earn what he needs to earn good luck to him but there's a price for that and it's international exile.

Time to blood the next generation of props.

You're leaping into the unknown into his thinking as much as me there Sam.

But I agree Cole shouldn't be picked.

I don't think there's going to be many surprises at tight head anyway. Would think the same 3 will be in the squad. 6 is probably the most interesting. Root's sounds like he may be in the driving seat?Martin maybe.

Where did Sam say that? Your manipulating what people say once again....

Sam said it's time to blood the next generation. I. Not sure it takes much manipulating to suggest Cole isn't in that group.

He clearly said SB wants fundamentals so didn't mention Cole...he'll be in the squad he mentioned Sinckler as needing replaced...but you manipulated it to suit you...

[Geordie]

And there you go with your manipulation again...twisting it again to make out someone else is wrong for having a different veiw to you...Great debating....

What have I twisted exactly?

It's you who has said my opinion is drivel. Not too sure why.

Because your claiming a player who has been so far away from being a top player for years is our best player in his position.  Give me reasons....why you believe that...

It's like the Furbank argument.  You despair at the the thought of him coming back in due to his previous England stint. Then now rhay he's getting MOTM every week with Freeman you claim it wasn't about his skill set it's his game management...which again seems strange to me given his current performances...

Because like Itoje even when not at the top of his game he's still better than the best of our options. His scrummaging has gone down a notch but so did everyone's and then you hear that england when they had Proudfoot weren't even training their scrummaging... I give him a bit of a break along with the rest of our scrum.

In the loose he is comfortably the best prop we have perhaps bar Genge. But even then passing wise he's even beyond what Vunipola was for us. It's that which is being underutilised. With Jones you often saw Sinckler standing in at first receiver on 3rd or 4th phase. Drawing and passing etc. Since Borthwick it's generally kicked after before we get to that point.

Re Furbank as I've said pretty much since he came into England it's been his mindset that let's him down. If you don't remember that go back to those first england games and remind yourself of my comments. The fact that he's come out this week and said that that's what's held him back so far as well reinforces rather than disputes my point.

But if these are the points you think are drivel while you say if Borthwick picks Sinckler in the squad it's a mistake I'm still comfortable with my viewpoint.

Your comparing Sinckler to Itoje??
Bahahahahahahahahahahahahah

The most laughable thing you've ever said on here.

In terms of him being under par for himself and still better than a host of other options absolutely. Not sure that is again outrageous to say,even you not so long ago was saying Itoje would be dropped by England shortly so it's not as if itoje holds such a lofty place in your opinion that we're not allowed to compare him to mortals.

Sincjler is nothing like Itoje in that regard...don't be silly.

Yes I did call for Itoje, but thats purely (as you and everyone else knows) I like some monsters in the engine room which has also been done to death.

[No 7&1/2]

Itoje is a generational talent. Hia below par is generally as good as most other players 7/10.

Sinckler is not a generational talent. He's a mobile and skillful prop who's fundamentals and fitness have suffered for some time. Borthwick is a man who values the fundamentals in the tight five so Sinckler has found himself as the bench impact option.

Borthwick can't be to blame if Sinckler cannot find another substantial contract in the Prem having amassed a pretty poor 52 games in four and a half season for Bristol. Especially when he's been on a salary rumoured in excess of £400k. If Sinckler needs to move abroad to earn what he needs to earn good luck to him but there's a price for that and it's international exile.

Time to blood the next generation of props.

You're leaping into the unknown into his thinking as much as me there Sam.

But I agree Cole shouldn't be picked.

I don't think there's going to be many surprises at tight head anyway. Would think the same 3 will be in the squad. 6 is probably the most interesting. Root's sounds like he may be in the driving seat?Martin maybe.

Where did Sam say that? Your manipulating what people say once again....

Sam said it's time to blood the next generation. I. Not sure it takes much manipulating to suggest Cole isn't in that group.

He clearly said SB wants fundamentals so didn't mention Cole...he'll be in the squad he mentioned Sinckler as needing replaced...but you manipulated it to suit you...

Ah got you. Its time to blood the next generation except for older players he prefers.

[No 7&1/2]

And there you go with your manipulation again...twisting it again to make out someone else is wrong for having a different veiw to you...Great debating....

What have I twisted exactly?

It's you who has said my opinion is drivel. Not too sure why.

Because your claiming a player who has been so far away from being a top player for years is our best player in his position.  Give me reasons....why you believe that...

It's like the Furbank argument.  You despair at the the thought of him coming back in due to his previous England stint. Then now rhay he's getting MOTM every week with Freeman you claim it wasn't about his skill set it's his game management...which again seems strange to me given his current performances...

Because like Itoje even when not at the top of his game he's still better than the best of our options. His scrummaging has gone down a notch but so did everyone's and then you hear that england when they had Proudfoot weren't even training their scrummaging... I give him a bit of a break along with the rest of our scrum.

In the loose he is comfortably the best prop we have perhaps bar Genge. But even then passing wise he's even beyond what Vunipola was for us. It's that which is being underutilised. With Jones you often saw Sinckler standing in at first receiver on 3rd or 4th phase. Drawing and passing etc. Since Borthwick it's generally kicked after before we get to that point.

Re Furbank as I've said pretty much since he came into England it's been his mindset that let's him down. If you don't remember that go back to those first england games and remind yourself of my comments. The fact that he's come out this week and said that that's what's held him back so far as well reinforces rather than disputes my point.

But if these are the points you think are drivel while you say if Borthwick picks Sinckler in the squad it's a mistake I'm still comfortable with my viewpoint.

Your comparing Sinckler to Itoje??
Bahahahahahahahahahahahahah

The most laughable thing you've ever said on here.

In terms of him being under par for himself and still better than a host of other options absolutely. Not sure that is again outrageous to say,even you not so long ago was saying Itoje would be dropped by England shortly so it's not as if itoje holds such a lofty place in your opinion that we're not allowed to compare him to mortals.

Sincjler is nothing like Itoje in that regard...don't be silly.

Yes I did call for Itoje,  but thats purely (as you and everyone else knows) I like some monsters in the engine room which has also been done to death.

In my opinion he is. The level he plays at means despite not being at the top of his game he's still much better than a guy like Heyes who Sam mentioned.

Oh nice. So presumably it's not drivel when you express an option to drop a player described as a generational talent just merely a preference. Good. To. Know.

[Geordie]

And if your superb memory comes in to play you'll remember I largely got chastised for such a suggestion on here about dropping Itoje...so there you go.

Anyway I'm bored of your drivel. I've blocked you so I can enjoy this site without your manipulative arguments.

Enjoy...

[No 7&1/2]

Ta. I'll try to soldier on.

[No 7&1/2]

Only saw snippets of the Saracens game but from what I did I bet Borthwick is quite pleased that any decision around Farrell has been taken out of his hands. He looked to be over thinking a lot of his game, forcing passes, that charge down (what was he complaining about?). Doesn't look in the right frame of mind hence obviously his step away from England ultimately but at least in part the media circus has been done and it's more likely positive news stories of debutants etc that will get the column inches.

[mountain man]

I didn't catch any of the Sarries match but reports show it was a hammering. Can't be just down to Farrell having his mind elsewhere, Saracens had a pretty loaded team with quite a few Eng players in there.
Was it as bad as score suggests and how did said Eng players perform?

[mikey_dragon]

I didn't catch any of the Sarries match but reports show it was a hammering. Can't be just down to Farrell having his mind elsewhere, Saracens had a pretty loaded team with quite a few Eng players in there.
Was it as bad as score suggests and how did said Eng players perform?

The reality is French clubs are always likely to come out on top, unless in somewhat of a transitional phase (Racing?). You look at Montpellier's squad and then wonder how they're at the bottom of the Top 14... It seems like a contest for now but the winners are likely to be the obvious ones like Leinster or Toulouse, perhaps La Rochelle are still within a sniff? England's top 4 clubs (Saints, Bath, Quins, Exeter) should put up a good fight though.

[bsando]

England are shaping up really well this year. I am quite interested to see how they get on. The form of Quins, Northampton, Exeter and Bath will surely mean a big shakeup of the England squad.

[mikey_dragon]

England are shaping up really well this year. I am quite interested to see how they get on. The form of Quins, Northampton, Exeter and Bath will surely mean a big shakeup of the England squad.

Considering the best locks in premiership (Rowlands and Ribbans) now play in France, you'd certainly expect a big shakeup. I wonder if Borthwick will just pick Leicester though.

[mountain man]

England are shaping up really well this year. I am quite interested to see how they get on. The form of Quins, Northampton, Exeter and Bath will surely mean a big shakeup of the England squad.

We can only hope!

[mountain man]

England are shaping up really well this year. I am quite interested to see how they get on. The form of Quins, Northampton, Exeter and Bath will surely mean a big shakeup of the England squad.

Considering the best locks in premiership (Rowlands and Ribbans) now play in France, you'd certainly expect a big shakeup. I wonder if Borthwick will just pick Leicester though.

Realistically starting locks likely to be Itoje and Chessum and no reason why not. Shake up more likely in backs than forwards I'd think and hope.

[king_carlos]

Jesus f***ing Christ. This thread is a dumpster fire.

[No 7&1/2]

Reed has chosen Scotland apparently. As trades go I think Feyi-Waboso for us and him to Scotland probably suits everyone. Bar Wales.

Know he's not part of the younger players coming through but anyone think Harrison from Sale.may sneak in? Been really good in the scrum and in defence. Doesn't seem to have been name dropped and mentioned as part of the thinking though.

[formerly known as Sam]

And there you go with your manipulation again...twisting it again to make out someone else is wrong for having a different veiw to you...Great debating....

What have I twisted exactly?

It's you who has said my opinion is drivel. Not too sure why.

Because your claiming a player who has been so far away from being a top player for years is our best player in his position.  Give me reasons....why you believe that...

It's like the Furbank argument.  You despair at the the thought of him coming back in due to his previous England stint. Then now rhay he's getting MOTM every week with Freeman you claim it wasn't about his skill set it's his game management...which again seems strange to me given his current performances...

Because like Itoje even when not at the top of his game he's still better than the best of our options. His scrummaging has gone down a notch but so did everyone's and then you hear that england when they had Proudfoot weren't even training their scrummaging... I give him a bit of a break along with the rest of our scrum.

In the loose he is comfortably the best prop we have perhaps bar Genge. But even then passing wise he's even beyond what Vunipola was for us. It's that which is being underutilised. With Jones you often saw Sinckler standing in at first receiver on 3rd or 4th phase. Drawing and passing etc. Since Borthwick it's generally kicked after before we get to that point.

Re Furbank as I've said pretty much since he came into England it's been his mindset that let's him down. If you don't remember that go back to those first england games and remind yourself of my comments. The fact that he's come out this week and said that that's what's held him back so far as well reinforces rather than disputes my point.

But if these are the points you think are drivel while you say if Borthwick picks Sinckler in the squad it's a mistake I'm still comfortable with my viewpoint.

Your comparing Sinckler to Itoje??
Bahahahahahahahahahahahahah

The most laughable thing you've ever said on here.

In terms of him being under par for himself and still better than a host of other options absolutely. Not sure that is again outrageous to say,even you not so long ago was saying Itoje would be dropped by England shortly so it's not as if itoje holds such a lofty place in your opinion that we're not allowed to compare him to mortals.

Sincjler is nothing like Itoje in that regard...don't be silly.

Yes I did call for Itoje,  but thats purely (as you and everyone else knows) I like some monsters in the engine room which has also been done to death.

In my opinion he is. The level he plays at means despite not being at the top of his game he's still much better than a guy like Heyes who Sam mentioned.

Oh nice. So presumably it's not drivel when you express an option to drop a player described as a generational talent just merely a preference.  Good. To. Know.

Heyes is better at the scrum and 6 years younger. There's plenty of time for development. Maybe he'll emulate Sinckler, don't know at this point.

Sinckler being dropped will be because he needs to move abroad to maintain his salary more than it will be a Borthwick decision. Borthwick and the RFU aren't going to war with the clubs over a second/third choice tighthead.

Sinckler in the loose is a potential stand out. His scrum work has been average to poor for some time though and that can't all be blamed on Proudfoot and England. It's probably why he's struggling to get those offers he wants from Prem clubs.

This is Sinckler ruling himself out remember.

[formerly known as Sam]

Jesus f***ing Christ. This thread is a dumpster fire.

With any luck we'll get some sort of reasonable debate back with the announcement of the 6N squad this week.

[king_carlos]

I think the back injury has prevented Sinckler fulfilling his talent long term. He was world class for two/three seasons. Lions tour and 2019 RWC included. Then he's had that back injury he can't shake, presumably can't be fixed by surgery. He isn't nearly as dynamic since that injury. There are a few games where he looks to be moving pretty awkwardly. He still has sky high tackle counts for a TH and his scrummaging has been mostly solid even after the injury. He went from a world class prop to solid international. The cupboard being bare means solid international TH is very useful to England though. Cole won't go on forever. Stuart has had stop, start development. Heyes still has that tendency to scrummage with his feet too far back and end up on his face. I still think Sinckler and Cole are the best two English THs at the moment.

[No 7&1/2]

Would Borthwick go to war with anyone? It'll be on the RFU to decide when there are too many people making themselves unavailable.

[doctor_grey]

I think the back injury has prevented Sinckler fulfilling his talent long term. He was world class for two/three seasons. Lions tour and 2019 RWC included. Then he's had that back injury he can't shake, presumably can't be fixed by surgery. He isn't nearly as dynamic since that injury. There are a few games where he looks to be moving pretty awkwardly. He still has sky high tackle counts for a TH and his scrummaging has been mostly solid even after the injury. He went from a world class prop to solid international. The cupboard being bare means solid international TH is very useful to England though. Cole won't go on forever. Stuart has had stop, start development. Heyes still has that tendency to scrummage with his feet too far back and end up on his face. I still think Sinckler and Cole are the best two English THs at the moment.

I could go on for a long time about the impact of back injuries, including my personal experience as the victim instead of the victimiser....oops, I mean the patient instead of the doc.   But to me, back injuries are a one way street.  People can have therapy or surgery and just about get back, and some look great because the training is more tailored around the injury.  But in the long run, they become difficult and potentially painful to play with.  Any slight pinch or pressure on the nerves can cause loss of coordination, weakness, numbness, and so on.  Each makes it hard for the body to do what the mind wants it to do, especially in that split second when most in-game decisions are made.

[BigGee]

Looks like Barbeary might be missing a few games coming up, including the chance of an England debut.

He has got a double citing from the weekend gane v Racing, is that a first?

Does he get double the ban if guilty on both of them?

Unchartered territory!

[No 7&1/2]

Ouch. Deserved though.

[No 7&1/2]

The best he can hope for is of course neither are deemed red...can't happen surely.
Then for one red. And then both reds but to serve them both at the same time.

'In cases of multiple offending, Disciplinary Committees and Judicial Officers may impose sanctions to run either on a concurrent or a consecutive basis provided that the total sanction is in all the circumstances proportionate to the level of the overall offending.'

Striking with the elbow Low-end: 2 weeks Mid-range: 6 weeks Top-end: 10+ weeks Max: 52 weeks
Striking with shoulder Low-end: 2 weeks Mid-range: 6 weeks Top-end: 10+ weeks Max: 52 weeks

Probably both mid I'd say and will you get any time off when you're there twice?! Could easily be looking at 12 weeks.

[king_carlos]

I'd be surprised if he got anything for the leading with the elbow citing.

The tackle will depend on where they decide first contact was with all the angles available. On TV we only get a fraction of the total angles available to the citing panel. There have been a few instances of first contact looking high on one angle but another, not seen on TV, apparently showing it was fractionally ball/chest/shoulder/etc first then hitting the neck or head with force.

Given there isn't a change in height and it's high force but not a shoulder charge it will be midrange if initial contact is high. If it's midrange it will likely get halved due to the good record and pleading guilty (I don't believe Barbeary has previous bans?), then a week knocked off for tackle school. So most likely a two week ban for midrange with Barbeary's record. Which would make him available for R1.

Interesting that even Lancaster said he thought the tackle was a yellow.

[No 7&1/2]

Fisilau also cited.

[Geordie]

Listenting to the stories i dont think Barbeary will miss any of the 6n.

Id go
6 Pearson
7 Earl
8 Barbeary

But it'll probably be
6 Chessum / Coles
7 Earl
8 Barbeary

I see Scotland have tapped up young Sale Winger Aaron Reed by the looks of it.

[BigGee]

Listenting to the stories i dont think Barbeary will miss any of the 6n.

Id go
6 Pearson
7 Earl
8 Barbeary

But it'll probably be
6 Chessum / Coles
7 Earl
8 Barbeary

I see Scotland have tapped up young Sale Winger Aaron Reed by the looks of it.

By tapped up, I assume you mean have encouraged him to get more in tune with his heritage

[Geordie]

Listenting to the stories i dont think Barbeary will miss any of the 6n.

Id go
6 Pearson
7 Earl
8 Barbeary

But it'll probably be
6 Chessum / Coles
7 Earl
8 Barbeary

I see Scotland have tapped up young Sale Winger Aaron Reed by the looks of it.

By tapped up, I assume you mean have encouraged him to get more in tune with his heritage

Yes something like that BG....they bought him a kilt and a haggis supper....

[BigGee]

Listenting to the stories i dont think Barbeary will miss any of the 6n.

Id go
6 Pearson
7 Earl
8 Barbeary

But it'll probably be
6 Chessum / Coles
7 Earl
8 Barbeary

I see Scotland have tapped up young Sale Winger Aaron Reed by the looks of it.

By tapped up, I assume you mean have encouraged him to get more in tune with his heritage

Yes something like that BG....they bought him a kilt and a haggis supper....

We have a large supply of them

[Geordie]

Listenting to the stories i dont think Barbeary will miss any of the 6n.

Id go
6 Pearson
7 Earl
8 Barbeary

But it'll probably be
6 Chessum / Coles
7 Earl
8 Barbeary

I see Scotland have tapped up young Sale Winger Aaron Reed by the looks of it.

By tapped up, I assume you mean have encouraged him to get more in tune with his heritage

Yes something like that BG....they bought him a kilt and a haggis supper....

We have a large supply of them

[mountain man]

Think that confirms Feyi-Waboso will be in England squad, not named for Wales. Bet Gatland wishes he had seeing as LRZ has jumped ship.

Car crash.

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