Re: England Getting Four Wins in the Six Nations - A New Thread

[Geordie]

First topic message reminder :

2 tries for Hartley at 12 .

Fdjour decent first scrum then missed some tackles etc.
Sales two wingers Reed and Roebuck were very impressive....

Bath v Cardiff now...lots of potential England options here.

[Poorfour]

How many games has Murley played? He's missed a fre with injury hasn't he.

Edit: he's only played 5 games this season...

And went off injured in two of them. it’s a real shame because pre-RWC he had been on a three year run of excellent form. Hope he can recover fully.

[mountain man]

Lawrence out is a blow. Ojomoh is a interesting call up, will he see any game time though. LCD? Could be worse as still have George and Dan.

Muir been good for Bath but I'm not sure he's Int quality. i think there are definitely others in queue ahead of him which fair enough to Borthwick as he wasn't an original pick.

Let's hope that's last of injury drop outs, I know some think wasn't the case but attrition rate in Eng camp under Jones always seemed high to me. And yes I'm aware Lawrence and LCD were injured in last match but training camp injuries seemed rather commonplace in past.

[formerly known as Sam]

I rate Kelly but he was genuinely dire for the start of the season. He had the worst game I've seen him play by a mile in R1, then reproduced it about a month and a half. It was almost bizarre how previous strengths in his game had evaporated. There's been a comparative uplift recently but he's still nowhere near his best. I've little issue with him missing out currently. I'd be disappointed if he also missed the Portugal game that may or may not happen.

Somewhat similar with Murley actually. I'd have him in the squad ahead of Muir but he hasn't been back at his best yet this season by a long stretch.

Sad but true.

Kelly has struggled in the new setup. He was very good against Sarries and decent Vs La Rochelle in a losing effort to be fair (made I think two try saving tackles, one where he made up a lot of ground).

Kelly is only 22, I'd hope he's given a run in the A game as he's a huge prospect that becomes eligible for Ireland again after the summer. There's a few good centres coming through Ojomoh, Seb Atkinson there's options albeit inexperienced ones at international for Borthwick to turn to.

[mountain man]

Anyone seen the Netflix thing Full Contact? It's out today. I'll watch later but apparently LRZ is one of the stars which must be proving a bit awkward right now. Gatland in it praising him etc and saying what a difference he makes.

[lostinwales]

Hopefully Lawrence is only out for the Italy match

[Geordie]

Lawrence out is a blow. Ojomoh is a interesting call up, will he see any game time though. LCD? Could be worse as still have George and Dan.

Muir been good for Bath but I'm not sure he's Int quality. i think there are definitely others in queue ahead of him which fair enough to Borthwick as he wasn't an original pick.

Let's hope that's last of injury drop outs, I know some think wasn't the case but attrition rate in Eng camp under Jones always seemed high to me. And yes I'm aware Lawrence and LCD were injured in last match but training camp injuries seemed rather commonplace in past.

It is...BUT we are fortunate to have Freeman as being the form 13 this season alongside Lawrence available. Hes been outstanding...
Id put Dingwall in beside him aswell

Ojomoh needs some consistency of performance for Bath...if he can get that suddenly he can fight to take the Bath 12 shirt off Redpath.

Muir, agree...tackle bag holder...but we have to be fair..hes in awesome form for Bath.

[Geordie]

I rate Kelly but he was genuinely dire for the start of the season. He had the worst game I've seen him play by a mile in R1, then reproduced it about a month and a half. It was almost bizarre how previous strengths in his game had evaporated. There's been a comparative uplift recently but he's still nowhere near his best. I've little issue with him missing out currently. I'd be disappointed if he also missed the Portugal game that may or may not happen.

Somewhat similar with Murley actually. I'd have him in the squad ahead of Muir but he hasn't been back at his best yet this season by a long stretch.

Sad but true.

Kelly has struggled in the new setup. He was very good against Sarries and decent Vs La Rochelle in a losing effort to be fair (made I think two try saving tackles, one where he made up a lot of ground).

Kelly is only 22, I'd hope he's given a run in the A game as he's a huge prospect that becomes eligible for Ireland again after the summer. There's a few good centres coming through Ojomoh, Seb Atkinson there's options albeit inexperienced ones at international for Borthwick to turn to.

And Olly Hartley a little bit back aswell..but surely at one of the best clubs to develop with.

Some size finally coming through in the backs....

12 Hartley - 6'4
13 Freeman - 6'4
14 Roebuck - 6'2

[mountain man]

Thing is though Lawrence was surely going to start at 12 with maybe Slade or ideally Freeman at 13.

Question is who fills the 12 shirt which has been an issue for only 10 years or so whenever Manu not fit. Which was quite a lot.
Dingwall we assume now will have to be there unless Ojomoh goes straight from non pick to starter which seems unlikey.

[lostinwales]

Dingwall Freeman centres. Fin and Mitchell at half back.  Marcus at FB. Slade on the bench. Wings will be interesting.

Possible Slade at 13 Freeman on the wing

[formerly known as Sam]

Lawrence out is a blow. Ojomoh is a interesting call up, will he see any game time though. LCD? Could be worse as still have George and Dan.

Muir been good for Bath but I'm not sure he's Int quality. i think there are definitely others in queue ahead of him which fair enough to Borthwick as he wasn't an original pick.

Let's hope that's last of injury drop outs, I know some think wasn't the case but attrition rate in Eng camp under Jones always seemed high to me. And yes I'm aware Lawrence and LCD were injured in last match but training camp injuries seemed rather commonplace in past.

It is...BUT we are fortunate to have Freeman as being the form 13 this season alongside Lawrence available. Hes been outstanding...

Including he PRC Freeman has appeared in 18 games but only has 7 starts at centre. Whilst he's been very good there he's being used as a utility option by Saints and that might count against him for winning the 13 shirt but could cry much count for him in terms of getting into the 23.

[Geordie]

Sam
Freeman has to start...be it at 13 or 14 (and a roving wigner)

Hes playing superb rugby...has size, power, and pace...and is creating tries aswell. Its a non discussion about him starting or not for me...its just where.

But as mentioned above...Slade might nick the 13 spot...with Freeman at 14. As much as im not a fan of Slade in his England career... I wouldnt actually be unhappy with that.

12 Dingwall
13 Slade
14 Freeman

Can Roebuck play left wing...or is he only a right wing player (Some wingers cant cope with switching sides)

[formerly known as Sam]

Oh I agree fully on Freeman having to play, was just being realistic about his amount of game time at 13.

Roebuck is a right winger, always wears 14. Freeman switches between both wings, fullback and OC.

[Geordie]

So maybe

11 Freeman - Just roving everywhere
12 Dingwall
13 Slade
14 Roebcuk
15. Steward

Not much power in the midfield...but with freeman, Roebuck and Steward all Hitting the line hard for crash balls etc and earl etc crashing through...and more creativity in the midfield....it could work well...

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Lawrence out is a blow.https://www.northamptonsaints.co.uk/ Ojomoh is a interesting call up, will he see any game time though. LCD? Could be worse as still have George and Dan.

Muir been good for Bath but I'm not sure he's Int quality. i think there are definitely others in queue ahead of him which fair enough to Borthwick as he wasn't an original pick.

Let's hope that's last of injury drop outs, I know some think wasn't the case but attrition rate in Eng camp under Jones always seemed high to me. And yes I'm aware Lawrence and LCD were injured in last match but training camp injuries seemed rather commonplace in past.

It is...BUT we are fortunate to have Freeman as being the form 13 this season alongside Lawrence available. Hes been outstanding...

Including he PRC Freeman has appeared in 18 games but only has 7 starts at centre. Whilst he's been very good there he's being used as a utility option by Saints and that might count against him for winning the 13 shirt but could cry much count for him in terms of getting into the 23.

Freeman was picked at 13 by Saints from the start of the season when they hade a full compliment of backs and was a sensation. He has only reverted to laying wing due to Saints losing three wingers, 2 long term in one game. We still only have one fully fit winger out of the top 4 at the start of the season, Sleightholme.

It may have only been seven starts, but he laid down a marker that no one else yet has been able to match (possibly Lawrence), having a roving winger as young and inexperienced as Freeman at international level is a potential disaster, someone like Watson, yes. He knows what he is doing on the wing or at centre, get him roving about and we risk being caught out of position.

[nlpnlp]

I think international 13s and defences in general are considerably better than club sides, so putting Freeman into the 13 shirt may not allow him to show his skills.  Most International sides have a big, hard running 13 so his physical strengths aren't that unusual.  Giving him the roving winger role would play more to his strengths.  Sometimes you have to take a chance to reap the potential rewards.  If you just want a kick chase winger as per Jonny May at  the end of his England career then I would say Will Muir is a better option...but I think most of us would rather see Freeman given the opportunity.

[No 7&1/2]

Langdon does pick up a ban following his red.

[formerly known as Sam]

WPI, I did say that Freeman had been very good at 13. It's just that 7 starts isn't a lot of game time before taking on the chance at international level. nlpnlp, Freeman has looked pretty powerful this season especially away at Glasgow where he carried through Scotland centre hopeful McDowell who isn't exactly small.

Freeman has played at international level before on the wing and has played quite a few club games there including some big games. I'd trust him to do the job and come off the wing, particularly if we are using the Saints 9/10/12. That being said I'm not a fan of the concept of a Dingwall/Slade midfield. Does lack a little bit of a carrying threat.

[George Carlin]

How much game time will Fin Smith get? Will he actually get selected?

Surely he will given all the hype? A start against Italy wouldn't be the worst idea.

[mountain man]

Who knows apart from Borthwick. Just have to wait until team announced.
I doubt very much he starts but likely bench I'd say.
Smith M starts at 10.

[formerly known as Sam]

Fin's the form 10 for me. Not much in it between him and Marcus but I think Fin is just showing and unreal level of control. A 21 year old shouldn't be controlling games like that.

Ford is struggling with injury and his form has been patchy so I suspect Italy will be the game where Borthwick looks to the younger guys to show they can carry the 10 shirt moving forwards.

[mountain man]

But will Borthwick who is a conservative coach I'd say, start an uncapped player in 6N? Seems unlikely to me especially as Smith M is playing so well.
My guess and as with everyone else it's a guess, is Marcus starts Fin bench.

[doctor_grey]

But will Borthwick who is a conservative coach I'd say, start an uncapped player in 6N? Seems unlikely to me especially as Smith M is playing so well.
My guess and as with everyone else it's a guess, is Marcus starts Fin bench.

I agree and think it's likely Marcus gets the start.  I'd go further and say it's probably not better than 50/50 that Freeman gets a start and Dingwall may need some luck to make the 23. Small steps.

[formerly known as Sam]

But will Borthwick who is a conservative coach I'd say, start an uncapped player in 6N? Seems unlikely to me especially as Smith M is playing so well.
My guess and as with everyone else it's a guess, is Marcus starts Fin bench.

I agree and think it's likely Marcus gets the start.  I'd go further and say it's probably not better than 50/50 that Freeman gets a start and Dingwall may need some luck to make the 23.  Small steps.

Borthwick being the same overly cautious coach that back seated the two experienced scrum halfs he took to the world cup for Mitchell who had a couple of caps to his name and wasn't in the original squad?

Borthwick does like some experience in the side but he rewards young talent as well.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Who do you think will be at 12 then Doc? With Lawrence and Manu out, the cupboard is pretty bare.

[Geordie]

Well its not a bad place to be if we are discussing which of two incredibly talented 10s are starting for England...

I do think it will be Smith starting though....

[Geordie]

Who do you think will be at 12 then Doc? With Lawrence and Manu out, the cupboard is pretty bare.

DIngwall at 12....

And im thinking more and more...it'll be SLade at 13.

The pair of them interchanging on defence , attack and different phases.

[No 7&1/2]

Unless something magical happens and Borthwick changes his approach the centres can expect a handful of passes in the game anyway. Doesn't overly matter what they can do in attack as long as they're reasonably solid in defence.

[mountain man]

But will Borthwick who is a conservative coach I'd say, start an uncapped player in 6N? Seems unlikely to me especially as Smith M is playing so well.
My guess and as with everyone else it's a guess, is Marcus starts Fin bench.

I agree and think it's likely Marcus gets the start.  I'd go further and say it's probably not better than 50/50 that Freeman gets a start and Dingwall may need some luck to make the 23.  Small steps.

Borthwick being the same overly cautious coach that back seated the two experienced scrum halfs he took to the world cup for Mitchell who had a couple of caps to his name and wasn't in the original squad?

Borthwick does like some experience in the side but he rewards young talent as well.

So Fin starts then in his first game for England in a 6N match away from home and Marcus is where bench or 15? Seeing as 10 probably one of if not the most important positions it's not impossible just very unlikely in my opinion.

Guess we'll see who calls it when team is announced. As I said, no-one here knows, it's all opinion/guesswork.

[Geordie]

When is the team announced?

[mountain man]

Assume week today, usually Thursday before a Saturday match. That's what used to happen, but I haven't heard for this 6N.

[mountain man]

I watched several episodes of Full Contact last night, was good and well worth a watch.
Galtiere who seems such an enigma most of time is really good seeing as rarely hear from him via English media.
Shaun Edwards is, well Shaun Edwards.

Some good stuff with Negri of Italy and Porter from Ireland in seperate episodes.

Genge features in England one, talking about upbringing etc quite interesting but nothing new.

[doctor_grey]

Who do you think will be at 12 then Doc? With Lawrence and Manu out, the cupboard is pretty bare.

No idea, mate.  And agree considering the injury to Lawrence, Dingwall at 12 seems logical.  Just not sure Dinger is a Borthwick guy.  But as Sam says, Borthwick has started new talent in the past so hoping for the best for our M1.

[doctor_grey]

I watched several episodes of Full Contact last night, was good and well worth a watch.
Galtiere who seems such an enigma most of time is really good seeing as rarely hear from him via English media.
Shaun Edwards is, well Shaun Edwards.

Some good stuff with Negri of Italy and Porter from Ireland in seperate episodes.

Genge features in England one, talking about upbringing etc quite interesting but nothing new.

That's on Netflix? Will have to ask my daughters for thier account info....

[mountain man]

Yes Netflix and that's exactly what I did, used daughters account!

[lostinwales]

But will Borthwick who is a conservative coach I'd say, start an uncapped player in 6N? Seems unlikely to me especially as Smith M is playing so well.
My guess and as with everyone else it's a guess, is Marcus starts Fin bench.

I agree and think it's likely Marcus gets the start.  I'd go further and say it's probably not better than 50/50 that Freeman gets a start and Dingwall may need some luck to make the 23.  Small steps.

Borthwick being the same overly cautious coach that back seated the two experienced scrum halfs he took to the world cup for Mitchell who had a couple of caps to his name and wasn't in the original squad?

Borthwick does like some experience in the side but he rewards young talent as well.

So Fin starts then in his first game for England in a 6N match away from home and Marcus is where bench or 15? Seeing as 10 probably one of if not the most important positions it's not impossible just very unlikely in my opinion.

Guess we'll see who calls it when team is announced. As I said, no-one here knows, it's all opinion/guesswork.

Marcus at 15. Either that or he starts at 10 and covers/ moves to 15 late on

[mountain man]

That I think is most likely scenario. Marcus starts at 10, Fin bench. Then Marcus goes to 15 and Fin on to 10 at 60mins or so.

Then again maybe Furbank starts at 10.....no just no.

[doctor_grey]

That I think is most likely scenario. Marcus starts at 10, Fin bench. Then Marcus goes to 15 and Fin on to 10 at 60mins or so.

Then again maybe Furbank starts at 10.....no just no.

Only if we want England to win by large margins. Clearly not part of the recent legacy from, let's say, 2015 onwards....

[Rugby Fan]

England have a match against Eddie Jones' Japan in summer, and now it looks Jones will bring Japan to Twickenham in November. It'll be the fourth match, after NZ, Australia and South Africa.

[doctor_grey]

England have a match against Eddie Jones' Japan in summer, and now it looks Jones will bring Japan to Twickenham in November. It'll be the fourth match, after NZ, Australia and South Africa.

Methinks England will want to put up a big score in that first Japan match. Obviously, not because it's Japan.....

[Geordie]

Isiekwe home and Ewells called up....im a little taken aback....

[formerly known as Sam]

But will Borthwick who is a conservative coach I'd say, start an uncapped player in 6N? Seems unlikely to me especially as Smith M is playing so well.
My guess and as with everyone else it's a guess, is Marcus starts Fin bench.

I agree and think it's likely Marcus gets the start.  I'd go further and say it's probably not better than 50/50 that Freeman gets a start and Dingwall may need some luck to make the 23.  Small steps.

Borthwick being the same overly cautious coach that back seated the two experienced scrum halfs he took to the world cup for Mitchell who had a couple of caps to his name and wasn't in the original squad?

Borthwick does like some experience in the side but he rewards young talent as well.

So Fin starts then in his first game for England in a 6N match away from home and Marcus is where bench or 15? Seeing as 10 probably one of if not the most important positions it's not impossible just very unlikely in my opinion.

Guess we'll see who calls it when team is announced. As I said, no-one here knows, it's all opinion/guesswork.

Yeah it's hard to know Borthwick's thinking but he's not afraid of picking what he thinks suits the game even if it's against the expected selections.

He made Dan Kelly a go to option at inside centre at 19/20 years of age despite having two experienced international centres on the books when at Tigers. If he rates a player he goes with them.

[formerly known as Sam]

Who do you think will be at 12 then Doc? With Lawrence and Manu out, the cupboard is pretty bare.

No idea, mate.  And agree considering the injury to Lawrence, Dingwall at 12 seems logical.  Just not sure Dinger is a Borthwick guy.  But as Sam says, Borthwick has started new talent in the past so hoping for the best for our M1.

Depends what he wants from the 12. If he decides he wants more options and less just crash from the 12. Like how he used Kelly at Tigers then Dingwall would slot into that kind of role pretty easily now he's got that new found tenacity in defence.

[doctor_grey]

Who do you think will be at 12 then Doc? With Lawrence and Manu out, the cupboard is pretty bare.

No idea, mate.  And agree considering the injury to Lawrence, Dingwall at 12 seems logical.  Just not sure Dinger is a Borthwick guy.  But as Sam says, Borthwick has started new talent in the past so hoping for the best for our M1.

Depends what he wants from the 12. If he decides he wants more options and less just crash from the 12. Like how he used Kelly at Tigers then Dingwall would slot into that kind of role pretty easily now he's got that new found tenacity in defence.

I'm not sure a mid-field with Dingwall and Slade has the best balance to it. I would like to see a stronger runner at 13. But Slade is playing very well. I guess we will find out when we find out, eh?

[hugehandoff]

I would like to see our starting XV against Wales start against Italy. They need a hit out to get up and running. Some new players, combinations, tactics, coaches etc. As ever it will take time to bed in. Some different bench players can be selected if necessary.

I would like to see:

Marler
George
Cole
Itoje
Chessum
Pearson
Earls
Underhill
Care
M.Smith
Freeman
Dingwall
Slade
Roebcuk
Steward

Bench:

Genge
Dan
Stuart
Alex Coles
Cunningham-South (I don't rate Dombrandt at international level)
Mitchell
F.Smith
Feyi-Waboso

[formerly known as Sam]

Who do you think will be at 12 then Doc? With Lawrence and Manu out, the cupboard is pretty bare.

No idea, mate.  And agree considering the injury to Lawrence, Dingwall at 12 seems logical.  Just not sure Dinger is a Borthwick guy.  But as Sam says, Borthwick has started new talent in the past so hoping for the best for our M1.

Depends what he wants from the 12. If he decides he wants more options and less just crash from the 12. Like how he used Kelly at Tigers then Dingwall would slot into that kind of role pretty easily now he's got that new found tenacity in defence.

I'm not sure a mid-field with Dingwall and Slade has the best balance to it.  I would like to see a stronger runner at 13.  But Slade is playing very well.  I guess we will find out when we find out, eh?  

Not sure how we can move the centres around to bring in a stronger runner though. Lawrence and Manu injured, Kelly out of form (though slowly improving). Ojomoh and Freeman are the other centre options. A Dingwall and Freeman combination would be good and if memory serves then Muir is a left winger so could possibly help with the make up of the back three.

Be a big ask for Marcus Smith to run a backline with a rookie centre pairing he doesn't know. He's shown a tendency to go himself when under pressure which hasn't tended to go well at international level. With an experienced centre he knows that pressure might be off a bit more so he can relax and play.

Of course SB might just go all out and name the Saints 9/10/12/13 and let the club cohesion take care of the impact of starting rookies at the level. Steward, Freeman, Roebuck and potentially Muir are some pretty big runners for Fin to call on if under pressure.

[No 7&1/2]

When Jones brought Smith through he showed little sign of nerves. Played well. Finished top scorer in the 6Ns. Think he should just go with Ford though. Slade at 12,Freeman at 13.

[No 7&1/2]

Shame about Isiekwe. Good cover from the bench I'd say. Ewels is probably the better setpiece lock anyway though. Would have loved to have seen Tuima involved.

[formerly known as Sam]

When Jones brought Smith through he showed little sign of nerves. Played well. Finished top scorer in the 6Ns. Think he should just go with Ford though. Slade at 12,Freeman at 13.

Yeah three losses from five games though. Tries against Italy and Scotland. He started fairly brightly and then folded against the bigger teams if I remember rightly, was that the France game where Smith was abysmal.

Ford hasn't shown enough form or fitness. He didn't look fully mobile last weekend. Marcus and Fin have both been showing good form. Pick one and tell them to go and put a marker down, it's against Italy and at the 6N it doesn't get any easier than that.

Marcus, Dingwall, Slade
Or
Fin, Dingwall, Freeman

[No 7&1/2]

Don't remember him being that poor so I'll bow to your memory. He was clearly seen by Jones as the 10 to take us forward.

I'll say ot quietly as I get told off these days but Italy is a dangerous game for us. We are lucky to have loads of players bang in form but I am nervous.

[mountain man]

Smith has rarely if ever shown his club form for England. Different team mates, stronger oppostion etc but he's never quite nailed it. He's had some excellent sections in matches but I can't recall him really stamping his mark on an Int match for 80mins or however long he was on for.
However, he's in superb form and England really need to play a bit more expansive rugby and he is in pole position to do so and deservedly so. If he starts at 10 then fine by me.
I think he will with Fin Smith bench.

As for Italy, I can't see anything other than England win. Doesn't mean it'll happen but it should.

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