England 6 Nations Thread

[LondonTiger]

First topic message reminder :

Sunday 2nd February 15:00 - France (a)
BBC Sport

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)
TMO: Brian MacNeice (Ireland)


Saturday 8th February 16:45 - Scotland (a)
BBC Sport

Referee: Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant 1: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant 2: Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO: James Leckie (Australia)


Sunday 23rd February 15:00 - Ireland (h)
ITV Sport

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Marius Jonker (South Africa)


Saturday 7th March 16:45 - Wales (h)
ITV Sport, S4C

Referee: Ben O’Keeffe (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Marius Jonker (South Africa)


Saturday 14th March 16:45 - Italy (a)
ITV Sport

Referee: Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Brian MacNeice (Ireland)




Squad

Forwards
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 21 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 19 caps)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Earl (Saracens, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 14 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 45 caps)
Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors, 1 cap)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 34 caps)
George Kruis (Saracens, 41 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 62 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 81 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 6 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 68 caps)
Alex Moon (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 31 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 58 caps)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 18 caps)

Backs
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 39 caps)
Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 79 caps)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 65 caps)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 47 caps)
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps)
Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps)
Jacob Umaga (Wasps, uncapped)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 42 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 95 caps)

Apprentice players
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Josh Hodge (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)

[LondonTiger]

Yea, one of those tries where right from the off you just know it's going to all end badly (or brilliantly). I remember certain posters going mad over that May injury as well, did Brown tackle May and break his nose? and then Goode was too slow to cover across and Fickou just makes them all look silly?

Great try, shame it was against us!

Indeed. iirc it was May's fault that we lost was the argument.

[BamBam]

Ah. I'd forgotten all about may being an idiot and getting a broken nose. Think that was the game where Nowell made the fundamental error of not being a saracen too!

Still can't believe that "debate" lasted 18 months

[MichaelT]

The 2014 tournament to me was the last great tournament with competitive matches and memorable incidents everywhere. For England, from the France match going 17-3 down, to leading with a few minutes to go, to losing; beating Scotland 20-0, the amazing Ireland game, beating Wales the year after them humping us in Cardiff, and then the Italy match where we were doing okay until an intercept i think took all the wind out of England.

Same year as Zebos flick v Wales, Hoggs sending off v Wales with a final score of 50-3 was it? Then France Ireland match where the last play (of the last game) by France was called back for a forward pass meant Ireland were champions.

2015 had that crazy final day but 2014 last great tournament. 2016 to 2019 i think the championship was won by the forth weekend if memory serves me right? Even England winning two of those, is not quite the same as the drama of 2014, and 2015 for that matter.

[Gooseberry]

There was some pretty bonkers moments even last year ...the england scotland game was utterly ridiculous.

I'm a massive fan of the 6 nations because it does always have close fought dramatic games and "anyone can win on their day". Most of the rivalries are intense and personalised to fans too. Even the "dead rubbers" can be exciting and meaningful as contests in their own right.

You just dont get that so much with a world cup, summer tour or AIs.

[Cumbrian]

Ah. I'd forgotten all about may being an idiot and getting a broken nose. Think that was the game where Nowell made the fundamental error of not being a saracen too!

Still can't believe that "debate" lasted 18 months

Has Beshocked flounced? I haven't seen any of his posts in a while.

[BamBam]

He has indeed Cumbrian

[Gooseberry]

Ah. I'd forgotten all about may being an idiot and getting a broken nose. Think that was the game where Nowell made the fundamental error of not being a saracen too!

Still can't believe that "debate" lasted 18 months

Has Beshocked flounced?  I haven't seen any of his posts in a while.

Probably ripped up his Saracens season ticket again when the cap stuff started leaking.

[Rugby Fan]

Piers Francis stretchered off at Saints. He's not in the squad but might have been on the fringes.

[Cumbrian]

It looked like another head-knock/concussion, you have to wonder how many more of these the poor fella can sustain.

[Gooseberry]

Launchberry may be out now. Just as well he picked 6 locks

[No 7&1/2]

Dombrant and smith were a bit good today.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Yes they couldn’t have done much more to put themselves forward. Hughes to yesterday.

[yappysnap]

Dombrandts handling for Quins first try was exceptional. Glad he'll be with Quins! England I'm sure will be fine with Lawes, Underhill, Curry. Definitely not a Stu Lancaster pick that...

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Beeb saying Launchbury out of the France game. Maybe give EJ a chance to have a look at Dombrant?

[No 7&1/2]

Was thinking that myself. Must be tempted surely and dosnt need another lock. An obvious call up for kpoku now!

[Gooseberry]

Can either of them fill in at scrum half if Heinz  gets injured on Saturday training?  

[No 7&1/2]

I dream of a team of 15 Currys.

[BamBam]

I dream of a team of 15 Currys.

Tasty

[Gooseberry]

I dream of a team of 15 Currys.

Tempted by a popadombrant?

[LondonTiger]

I dream of a team of 15 Currys.

Tempted by a popadombrant?

Well have naan of that

[Geordie]

If launchbury is out...he has to call up Dombrandt.

[LondonTiger]

If launchbury is out...he has to call up Dombrandt.

As teh squad is cut tomorrow to 23 (+ injury cover) I doubt he will add anyone this week.

Of course now I have said that he will call someone up this afternoon.

[Rugby Fan]

If launchbury is out...he has to call up Dombrandt.

As teh squad is cut tomorrow to 23 (+ injury cover) I doubt he will add anyone this week.

Of course now I have said that he will call someone up this afternoon.

Do he released players go back to their clubs? If not, and Jones wants to keep the exclusively for England duty, then he might call someone up to stop them playing at the weekend.

[No 7&1/2]

Ah to dream. Stubborn bugger is jones and doubt anything Dombrandt did at the weekend came as a surprise to him.

[LondonTiger]

If launchbury is out...he has to call up Dombrandt.

As teh squad is cut tomorrow to 23 (+ injury cover) I doubt he will add anyone this week.

Of course now I have said that he will call someone up this afternoon.

Do he released players go back to their clubs? If not, and Jones wants to keep the exclusively for England duty, then he might call someone up to stop them playing at the weekend.

The protocol has been that England release the players back to the clubs - though it is only Premiership Cup this weekend I think. Therefore he may well keep thyem all on board and actually call up a replacement (contradicting myself) before releasing players next week to feature in GP matches.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

I can see us getting Moon, Dingwall and Mitchell back, would love to have Furnank as well but I suspect he will be on the bench with Ludlam, Lawes to start.

[No 7&1/2]

Speaking from England's warm-weather training camp in Portugal, Jones added: "Some of the reasons we have come up with are: a) they have failed to cope with the expectation of being a top team, or b) they don't have that relentless, forensic search for how to get better because they feel like they have made it."

England gathered in camp last Wednesday evening and travelled to the Algarve on Thursday before holding a series of meetings on Friday and Saturday, addressing both the Saracens situation as well as how to kick on after coming so close in Japan.

"We want to make sure we understand what the potential threats are, and then we can deal with them," Jones explained.

"Maybe sometimes the players can be comfortable and maybe the coaches can be comfortable.

"But that relentless desire to be better is what I'm seeing with this team already. I'm so pleased the way they have come into camp."

Jones admits he is dealing with a group of players in a markedly different place to four years ago, when they were recovering from a chastening World Cup experience on home soil.

"In 2016 we inherited a team with poor confidence, searching for redemption, and now we have a team with an enhanced reputation and players with enhanced reputations," he added.

"But what I'm seeing with the players is an absolute desire to be a much better team. We want to be the greatest team the game of rugby has ever seen. That's a big dream but why not go for it? We are quite capable of getting there."

First up for England is a young French team at the Stade de France, with new boss Fabien Galthie picking a host of rookies as he targets home World Cup glory in 2023.

Jones has turned the heat up on Les Bleus, questioning whether their callow group will be able to cope with the unique pressures of Test rugby.

"Test match rugby requires experience and France have decided not to take experience in, they've gone with youth. And they might be wrong, they might be right," he said.

"We don't know but it is going to test those young players because they will never have played against a brutal physicality and intensity that we are going to play with on Sunday."

Some comments from Jones via the Beeb.

[king_carlos]

Was it in Portugal that Jones has run full speed training matches in the past? Albeit I believe the reasoning for those was replicating the turnaround of the RWC.

A mix of first XV forwards with the reserve backs and vice versa would be fascinating to watch as a match-up given there are a few tightly fought positions. I'd love to see footage of those types of matches but do understand that they want them behind close doors given they are training exercises.

1.Vunipola 2.George 3.Sinkler 4.Itoje 5.Kruis 6.Curry 7.Underhill 8.Earl
9.Heinz 10.Ford 11.Thorley 12.Devoto 13.Dingwall 14.Hodge 15.Furbank

vs

1.Marler 2.Cowan-Dickie 3.Williams 4.Moon 5.Ewels 6.Lawes 7.Ludlam 8.Hill
9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Tuilagi 13.Joseph 14.Watson 15.Daly

Reserves for either side: Genge, Dunn, Stuart, Mitchell, Umaga

In particular I could see the back three players in Thorley, Furbank and even apprentice Josh Hodge shining in a training match.

Launchbury (he's out of the France game I know but just passing time with hypotheticals here) would show up well in that kind of game I think. He offers less in the line-out than the other 3 established locks but has more of an off loading and support running game. If we are looking to physically dominate sides in the tight then he falls behind his peers but if a side is battering us in the tight (South Africa for instance...) then Launchbury could provide a different skill set in attack.

[No 7&1/2]

Launchbury is probably our most physical lock in carrying in the tight and defensive mauls I'd say. Lacks in the lineout compared to the other 3. Difficult to say in the scrum the consensus following some jones comments are the saracens pair are the best there. Moot now sadly. May well have been the bench choice should the anticipated lawes at blind side come about.

[king_carlos]

Launchbury is probably our most physical lock in carrying in the tight and defensive mauls I'd say. Lacks in the lineout compared to the other 3. Difficult to say in the scrum the consensus following some jones comments are the saracens pair are the best there. Moot now sadly. May well have been the bench choice should the anticipated lawes at blind side come about.

Marler no doubt made a difference at scrum time in the final but Kruis scrummaging behind Cole had an immediate impact on the tight head side as well. Kitshoff came on early in the second half (before the 45 minute mark I believe) so that was Cole after effectively 40 minutes of rugby against a fresh and very strong loosehead as well.

I rate Kruis extremely highly though so do tend to watch his performances closely and pick up on his input more. Some bias there I admit.

[No 7&1/2]

Kruis did make a huge difference. Took me back to vickery getting stuffed on the lions tour. Jones made a difference. So did shaw behind him. Has me wondering now whether we'll see ewells or hill on the bench.
Kruis itoje
Lawes underhill
Curry.

Hill earl.

Could have a nice overall balance.

[king_carlos]

1.Marler 2.George 3.Sinkler 4.Itoje 5.Kruis 6.Curry 7.Underhill 8.Earl
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Tuilagi 14.Watson 15.Furbank

16.Cowan-Dickie 17.Vunipola 18.Williams 19.Lawes 20.Hill 21.Heinz 22.Joseph 23.Daly

Personally I think that's the best balance in the pack with impact off the bench for the first game. I really hope Marler starts to challenge their inexperienced tightheads in the scrum. Kruis should be able to pressure Chat in the line-out where he isn't as strong.

I'm not a fan of Lawes on the flank. Especially given that if Jones wants a blindside with more bulk in the tight then Isiekwe is playing brilliantly.

9.Dupont 10.Jalibert 11.Penaud 12.Ntamack 13.Vakatawa 14.Thomas 15.Ramos

21.Serin 23.Fickou 23.Rattez

France have some wonderful backs in this new look squad. Dupont and Serin are both brilliant players at 9. Vakatawa is in absurdly good form. Ntamack and Penaud are class acts.

He's lesser known but I really hope Vincent Rattez gets a chance this tournament. His 'balanced' running style is reminiscent of guys such as Christian Cullen from years gone by. He just changes direction effortlessly at full pace. A really classy player to watch.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Chat has been ruled out with a calf injury & replaced by his clubmate at Racing 21 year old Baubigny.
So targeting the lineout will certainly be one of the things England will be looking to do.

[lostinwales]

Any word on who has been sent back to their clubs etc?

[Geordie]

"Test match rugby requires experience and France have decided not to take experience in, they've gone with youth. And they might be wrong, they might be right," he said.

"We don't know but it is going to test those young players because they will never have played against a brutal physicality and intensity that we are going to play with on Sunday."

Some comments from Jones via the Beeb.

i love the sound of that. Thats what we did against NZ...and just couldnt quite match v South Africa. Its going to be interesting to watch.

[lostinwales]

"Test match rugby requires experience and France have decided not to take experience in, they've gone with youth. And they might be wrong, they might be right," he said.

"We don't know but it is going to test those young players because they will never have played against a brutal physicality and intensity that we are going to play with on Sunday."

Some comments from Jones via the Beeb.

i love the sound of that. Thats what we did against NZ...and just couldnt quite match v South Africa. Its going to be interesting to watch.

I can see it now. Smash France. Slow down a little but comfortably beat Scotland. Struggle through against Ireland and then lose to Wales because by that point we are completely knackered.

[Geordie]

And because we dont win Finals or grand slam deciders!

[Cumbrian]

"Test match rugby requires experience and France have decided not to take experience in, they've gone with youth. And they might be wrong, they might be right," he said.

"We don't know but it is going to test those young players because they will never have played against a brutal physicality and intensity that we are going to play with on Sunday."

Some comments from Jones via the Beeb.

i love the sound of that. Thats what we did against NZ...and just couldnt quite match v South Africa. Its going to be interesting to watch.

I can see it now. Smash France. Slow down a little but comfortably beat Scotland. Struggle through against Ireland and then lose to Wales because by that point we are completely knackered.

Nearly two weeks in-between the Scotland Ireland games and same again between Ireland and Wales games. You would hope that the players are wrapped in cotton wool and allowed to get some recuperation in that time. What are the rules around EPS members playing in the 6N fallow weeks?

[yappysnap]

"Test match rugby requires experience and France have decided not to take experience in, they've gone with youth. And they might be wrong, they might be right," he said.

"We don't know but it is going to test those young players because they will never have played against a brutal physicality and intensity that we are going to play with on Sunday."

Some comments from Jones via the Beeb.

i love the sound of that. Thats what we did against NZ...and just couldnt quite match v South Africa. Its going to be interesting to watch.

I can see it now. Smash France. Slow down a little but comfortably beat Scotland. Struggle through against Ireland and then lose to Wales because by that point we are completely knackered.

Nearly two weeks in-between the Scotland Ireland games and same again between Ireland and Wales games.   You would hope that the players are wrapped in cotton wool and allowed to get some recuperation in that time.  What are the rules around EPS members playing in the 6N fallow weeks?

Yes but Eddie doesn't do that, it's full on for the whole tournament. And it's not just fatigue, the players seem to always struggle with expectation, as soon as the pressure is on and they're favourites in a crunch game their heads go down and they underperform.

[No 7&1/2]

Earl has been picked out as the youngster to watch by the bbc.hoping its Furbank who makes the biggest dent though.

[Rinsure]

When does Eddie announce the side?

[No 7&1/2]

Would normally be friday.

[LondonTiger]

https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/2020/01/29/when-are-the-guinness-six-nations-team-announcements-for-round-one/

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Blow for England - Luke Cowan Dickie returns home from training camp ‘for personal reasons’ unlikely to play in France.

Real shame as I think he may well have started but wish him well.

[king_carlos]

Well that first half was bleeding awful. Once Manu went off the backs had zero ball carriers and it showed. The dual playmakers with Farrell playing in behind can only function if there's something to hold the defence. Once Manu went off there simply wasn't anything.

Manu, Cokanasiga and Nowell are this sides best backs carrying in contact. Without them we need more carriers in the forwards (Genge and Earl from this squad) and slicker handling in the backs. Thorley would offer more go forward as well. He's lightning quick but isn't small either.

Also quicker ball. Youngs made one fantastic clearance under pressure, other than that his game management was non-existent. Seeing England pick and go from 2m out without any direction or threat to go wide was painful. A player of Youngs experience needs to take initiative there.

1.Genge 2.Cowan-Dickie 3.Sinckler 4.Lawes 5.Kruis 6.Curry 7.Underhill 8.Earl
9.Heinz 10.Ford 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Joseph 14.Thorley 15.Furbank

16.George 17.Marler 18.Stuart 19.Itoje 20.Hill 21.Youngs 22.Devoto 23.Daly

If Watson is fit then I'd start him ahead of Thorley, but would like Thorley on the bench still.

Ludlam was excellent when he came on so dropping him is harsh. But we are forcing 3 opensides into the 23 when we need ball carriers. Earl and Hill offer carrying. Tough on Ludlam who is an excellent player but he's still behind Curry and Underhill currently.

I thought Itoje had his poorest game in a long time. Poor discipline at the breakdown and trying to force things in attack.

[formerly known as Sam]

Not sure about that. Heinz was worse than Youngs and Lawes busy but ineffective. At most I'd have them on the bench. Kruis and Itoje pairing up saw the lineout stabilise and we need that. Ideally we'd see Spencer come into the squad otherwise Youngs stays at 9.

I'm hoping Eddie eats humble pie and calls up Dombrandt for next week. We need some serious bosh in the backrow as the tight five can't carry us in that aspect. Sinckler is lucky there's no serious competition for his place as he was useless outside of the scrum.

[Geordie]

Sinkler looked like he couldnt be bothered. He needs to watch Genges performance.

Devoto needs considered at 12.

Dombrandt must come in.

And 9...well telling Youngs not to take two or three steps before he passes each time would be a start. And how many times was,he told to use it. All too slow.

[Khouli Khan]

BONG!

This is England's best chance to beat France;

BONG!

Even though its a young French team, playing with no fear and they've been ripping up trees for their clubs - after all, France are always flakey and they wont gell;

BONG!

S Edwards hasn't been with the French Team anywhere near long enough to have had any immediate effect on the French defence;

BONG!

Don't say I didn't tell you......

[No 7&1/2]

Didn't see many trees being ripped except by Dupont (but pretty glad his horrendous mistake got us a point). Excellent defence like.

[Khouli Khan]

Didn't see many trees being ripped except by Dupont (but pretty glad his horrendous mistake got us a point). Excellent defence like.

Couldn't have been anything to do with S Edwards, he hasn't been there long enough....

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