6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

First topic message reminder :

Part 1 - https://www.606v2.com/t68214-6-nations-ireland-v-england-2nd-feb-2019

Details:

Date: Saturday 2nd February 2019
Time: 16:45 GMT
Location: Dublin, Aviva Stadium
Media Coverage: ITV, TV3, BBC (highlights only), Radio 5Live


Officials


Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)



Teams

Ireland

15 Robbie Henshaw, 14 Keith Earls, 13 Garry Ringrose, 12 Bundee Aki, 11 Jacob Stockdale, 10 Johnny Sexton, 9 Conor Murray; 1 Cian Healy, 2 Rory Best, 3 Tadhg Furlong, 4 Devin Toner, 5 James Ryan, 6 Peter O'Mahony, 7 Josh van der Flier, 8 CJ Stander.

16 Sean Cronin, 17 Dave Kilcoyne, 18 Andrew Porter, 19 Quinn Roux, 20 Sean O'Brien, 21 John Cooney, 22 Joey Carbery, 23 Jordan Larmour


England

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 25 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 17 caps), 12 Manu Tuiagi (Leicester Tigers, 27 caps), 11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 65 caps), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 80 caps); 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 51 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens, 32 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 17 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 26 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 27 caps), 6 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 8 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 5 caps), 8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 36 caps).

16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps), 17 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 15 caps), 19 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 68 caps), 20 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 18 caps), 21 Dan Robson (Wasps, uncapped), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps), 23 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 42 caps).

I'd freely admit that Ireland probably have a more precisely worked out plan and are better at sticking to it, but to say that any international team is "without coherent tactics" is just daft.

So you agree with my basic premise?  Have England decided yet who / what they want at 10/12 yet?

Ok without coherent tactics may be hyperbole but the basic premise is right.  ireland are settled team knowing precisely how they want to play and used to playing that way.  England are not.

Seems Jones does know how he wants to play vs Ireland. Pretty similar going in style wise from last year isn't it? We have more players available this year of course.

To be fair to England and their coaches, consistently being able to pick the same team is a big issue. Injuries have been a massive factor and the RFU doesn’t have as much persuasion over the premiership clubs as the IRFU does over Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster.

maestegmafia wrote:To be fair to England and their coaches, consistently being able to pick the same team is a big issue. Injuries have been a massive factor and the RFU doesn’t have as much persuasion over the premiership clubs as the IRFU does over Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster.

Part of the genius of Schmidt is that he almost takes injuries out of the equation, by getting physically dissimilar players to play to the role's requirements rather than adjusting the role to the individual.

TJ wrote:

I'd freely admit that Ireland probably have a more precisely worked out plan and are better at sticking to it, but to say that any international team is "without coherent tactics" is just daft.

So you agree with my basic premise?  Have England decided yet who / what they want at 10/12 yet?

Ok without coherent tactics may be hyperbole but the basic premise is right.  ireland are settled team knowing precisely how they want to play and used to playing that way.  England are not.

I’d agree with what you say about Ireland. “England are not” comes across as an attempt to reduce a complex situation to an insult. Eddie is balancing two problems at the moment: one in the past, and one ahead of him.

England have had huge injury problems compared to Ireland in particular, and this is the first series where there hasn’t been a long list of unavailable players. In that time, though, England have still managed to put together a good run of success, barring the last 6 Nations (where Townsend worked out how to counter the pod system and everyone else copied it) and the South Africa tour, where the tactical approach was actually pretty good, but the approach to acclimatisation went disastrously wrong.

The second problem is that England have the toughest RWC schedule of any top nation. Their last two pool games are Argentina, then France and they then have to win QF, SF and Final if they want to take the trophy home. I don’t believe anyone has ever won a sequence of 5 matches agains top 10 sides on the trot with no breaks.

What that means is that Eddie will have to be able to rotate his squad. He needs to have 31 players who he is happy starting in a knockout match. So it’s no longer as simple as “who do England want in [position]?” - the ask is to find at least three players who would be comfortable starting a test in each position. We’re a lot closer to that than I thought we would be, but I expect to see quite a lot of shifting of players around in the buildup to the RWC.

Schmidt doesn’t have those problems. He can afford a “settled” side. England can’t. Different games.

Well if the Ladies game is any thing to go by, England could well be on for for a great score.

But before any one says that the men's game is totally different beast. Well i agree it is.

Looking forward to the game what ever the outcome it will be a great game.

Come on England.

majesticimperialman wrote:Well if the Ladies game is any thing  to go by, England could well be on for  for a great score.

But before any one says that the men's game is totally different beast. Well i agree it is.

Looking forward to the game what ever the outcome it will be a great game.

Come on England.

.. just don't mention the U20's...

Yeah we've had some injuries not sure how many have been down to minutes played though. Tends to be more strains and tears if you're not having that recovery time as I understand it whereas there's been quite a few impact injuries or just plain bad luck. Granted I suppose you can say the less time you're on the pitch or training the less chance there is for injuries.
It's a slightly different thought to the switching of tactics. Most teams will adapt their games to counter the opposition the point about the 10 12 though is that Jones believes that bigger more direct 12 is a way to take advantage against Ireland. That Seems consistent from last year and the build up here where he's lost Te'o and replaced him with tuilagi. I would suggest moving to Ford Farrell slade after that would have demonstrated a change in plan more than the selected team.

The other obvious point is that England have a larger number of players capable of playing different ways to the same standard than a lot of teams so we can shuffle a bit more. Ironically Jones was being criticised for having no plan b at one time.

majesticimperialman wrote:Well if the Ladies game is any thing  to go by, England could well be on for  for a great score.

Team of full time professionals beats team of amateurs. Wow! What a result!

Just watching the Eddie Butler six nations program shown on Thursday evening on the bbc to see a great little interview with the legendary POC.

I didn’t realise that he was coaching in Stade at the moment.

He was a superb commentator last night, his incite fullness and impartiality were as magnificent as informative.

With O’Gara now at the Crusaders having spent time in France previously I think you have two former greats of the game doing the right thing to be a huge benefit to Irish rugby in the future.

We often look across the Celtic sea with green envy at the many sensible decisions being made.

Yes it's a very alien concept to England fans and I guess in part by Welsh fans @please correct me if I'm wrong) that a governing body could actually be very good at implementing sensible well thought out plans. Who can forget the criticism levelled at the rfu by carling, "57 old farts". Still looks be badly run imo with emphasis on profits. Still we pay our money and turn up in our thousands, so really if we wanted real change we would do something about it. My major gripe recently is the sacking of grass roots rugby staff rather than trimming the middle and senior leaders. What short sightedness and totally at odds with the actually main purpose of a governing body.

Scarpia wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Well if the Ladies game is any thing  to go by, England could well be on for  for a great score.

Team of full time professionals beats team of amateurs. Wow! What a result!

Good win by the under 20s over England. Womens rugby is garbage sadly.

Ah well the nerves have kicked in now. More confident in an England win than Daly winning a 50 50 high ball like. See you on the other side.

Good seeing Manu back.

Great start!

Blimey

Couldn't see it properly but wasn't that a take-out in the air?

The return of the three pacific islanders to have a profound impact on this match.

You’d know all about that lad

So why was that a pen but the one earlier when an Irish player took out the England player in the air was fine?

Ireland not making a dent with the yellow, nor owning possession. England much more aggressive with the number of poor or late hits.

Looked like Mako was shoved in the back there before he had the ball ...

Ireland get every call. Actually quite funny tbh

Yes they are, though the England aggression is misfiring all over the place.

Ireland just putting head down and trusting the system.  England look the better team in the first 20 but expect it to be even for the rest of the half

Looking like another tactical masterclass by Jones and his team. Makes it all the more frustrating when England play absolute rubbish, like against Japan/South Africa.

Anyway, back in the lead.

Good pressure try, sorry but can see England going away with this, much more the aggressors. Manu punching up the midfield is giving them a good attacking platform. Irish limited game is showing.

Spoke to soon England look like the winners

Let's not get carried away - early days yet

Just like the one in the Scotland game, he used the knees to move forward.

A technical call, but probably the right one

harsh - that should have been a try for Mako... Ireland very lucky. Good start by England

Well we've not got many 50 50 calls in the 1st half lets hope it balances out.

Try all day long. Obviously not against Ireland though, heaven forbid

As the on-field decision was 'try', I didn't think there was enough evidence for overturn it. Still, 7 points is a big advantage, especially with England's strong bench.

Rubbish decision for double movement - his knees were still off the ground when he shoved with his feet. Garces was determined to find a way to disallow it ...

Nice seeing Slade and Daly both playing very well

Any concerns about 50/50 calls should be balanced with Itoje escaping a yellow card... He knew exactly what he was doing...

For me, if you have to go to slow motion to decide it is a double movement, it was ok. But I guess if it was scored against us, I would be unhappy.

Goosestepper wrote:Any concerns about 50/50 calls should be balanced with Itoje escaping a yellow card... He knew exactly what he was doing...

Maybe - but then if it had been may or a smaller guy it would have been 'fair contest'. And lets not mention Murray blocking May before that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well we've not got many 50 50 calls in the 1st half lets hope it balances out.

It has, England are getting alot of the bounces of the ball. Unless Ireland turn it around in the first 10 mins they are in trouble

Brendan wrote:Spoke to soon England look like the winners

 Except we have probably seen the best of England in the first half, while Ireland will improve in the second.

lostinwales wrote:

Goosestepper wrote:Any concerns about 50/50 calls should be balanced with Itoje escaping a yellow card... He knew exactly what he was doing...

Maybe - but then if it had been may or a smaller guy it would have been 'fair contest'. And lets not mention Murray blocking May before that.

Or the first high ball where an Irish player took the England catcher in the air ... Garces put his whistle to his mouth then bailed out.

Hmm I disagree with that goosestepper as I think it looks worse as he's a forward doing what a back normally does. I'm assuming you mean the challenge in the air.

No that was never a try

Itijr should not be carded either...dont be silly.

Brutal encounter so far.

England have to keep up the intensity

lostinwales wrote:

Goosestepper wrote:Any concerns about 50/50 calls should be balanced with Itoje escaping a yellow card... He knew exactly what he was doing...

Maybe - but then if it had been may or a smaller guy it would have been 'fair contest'. And lets not mention Murray blocking May before that.

My issue with it is he goes beyond where the ball lands so no effort to catch the ball.

Healy try held up and Mako’s was a try. Harsh.

Hey and it will swing at some point Brendan. Ireland will ge5 hold of it and it'll be immense pressure I'm sure. It's what you base your game on.

lostinwales wrote:

Goosestepper wrote:Any concerns about 50/50 calls should be balanced with Itoje escaping a yellow card... He knew exactly what he was doing...

Maybe - but then if it had been may or a smaller guy it would have been 'fair contest'. And lets not mention Murray blocking May before that.

I thought Maro was a bit fortunate there as well, he completely took him out before the ball came!

The calls are going both ways!

Healy didn’t even ground it ffs