6 Nations - England v France

by **LondonTiger** Mon 04 Feb 2019, 11:13 am

First topic message reminder :

Details:

Date: Sunday 10th February 2019
Time: 15:00 GMT
Location: Twickenham Stadium
Media Coverage: ITV, BBC (highlights only), Radio 5Live

Officials

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

Teams

England

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 26 caps), 14 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 43 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 18 caps), 12 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 28 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 41 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 66 caps) (c), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 81 caps), 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 52 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens, 33 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 18 caps), 4 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 69 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 28 caps), 6 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 9 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 6 caps), 8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 37 caps).

16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 8 caps), 17 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps), 18 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 82 caps), 19 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 54 caps), 20 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 19 caps), 21 Dan Robson (Wasps, uncapped), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps), 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 30 caps).

France

15. Yoann Huget
14. Damian Penaud
13. Mathieu Bastareaud
12. Geoffrey Doumayrou
11. Gaël Fickou
10. Camille Lopez
9. Morgan Parra
1. Jefferson Poirot
2. Guilhem Guirado
3. Demba Bamba
4. Sébastien Vahaamahina
5. Félix Lambey
6. Yacouba Camara
7. Arthur Iturria
8. Louis Picamoles

Replacements
16. Pierre Bourgarit
17. Dany Priso
18. Dorian Aldegheri
19. Paul Willemse
20. Gregory Alldritt
21. Antoine Dupont
22. Romain Ntamack
23. Thomas Ramos

by Collapse2005 Mon 11 Feb 2019, 2:56 pm

He hit the guy on the head. It was moronic and more a yellow than Hugets brain fart. After pontificating and hogging the limelight as usual Owens wimped out on that one.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 11 Feb 2019, 2:57 pm

Yeah swing and a miss by the Frenchman but the citing officer may be little busier this week. A few tasty challenges in the Scotland game as well which may catch the eye.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 11 Feb 2019, 3:00 pm

Demba Bamba was saved from further investigation off his challenge on Manu due to England getting a try during teh move, but it looked like a shoulder to the head to me and would have been a red card in the premiership.

Doubt we will see any citings though from any game.

by LordDowlais Mon 11 Feb 2019, 3:11 pm

I might have been seeing something of nothing, but for England's penalty try, was Ashton pulling Fickou's arm during the foot race ?

by king_carlos Mon 11 Feb 2019, 3:13 pm

Sinckler was really dumb and let the France 7 rile him up too easily. In a different game it could have been very costly and a yellow card I wouldn't have queried at all.

Farrell was lucky not to connect with a swinging arm early in the second half as well. A French forward was holding his arm by a ruck to stop him getting back in the line, Farrell swung his other arm behind him to free the arm being held but came close to connecting with a swinging arm.

It's area where I think England can improve, conceding silly penalties and controlling their aggression.

Jones has built a side that he encourages to be very aggressive in defense and play near that line but some are better at it than others in my opinion. I think it's noticeable that England's best defenders so far in Mako, Curry, Lawes and Wilson are all guys who control that aggression very well and don't get sucked into the extra curricular handbags and histrionics.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 11 Feb 2019, 3:18 pm

Ashton is just quicker.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 11 Feb 2019, 3:37 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I might have been seeing something of nothing, but for England's penalty try, was Ashton pulling Fickou's arm during the foot race ?

No contact as Ashton passes Fickou. Only contact is when Fickou tackles him.

by Poorfour Mon 11 Feb 2019, 3:50 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:He hit the guy on the head. It was moronic and more a yellow than Hugets brain fart. After pontificating and hogging the limelight as usual Owens wimped out on that one.

It's a bit daft to take that view unless you saw the whole incident. He shouldn't have responded, but the French player had a go at his head/neck area and his response - as I saw it in real time in the stadium - was less than had been dished out and seemed more geared stopping whatever was being done than retaliating. It's very disappointing that the TMO replay didn't even try to show both sides.

by eirebilly Mon 11 Feb 2019, 3:52 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Demba Bamba was saved from further investigation off his challenge on Manu due to England getting a try during teh move, but it looked like a shoulder to the head to me and would have been a red card in the premiership.

Doubt we will see any citings though from any game.

That has always upset me, if it is foul play then it is foul play regardless of the outcome of said play. I do believe that incident should have been revisited after the try and sanctioned accordingly.

I also feel that Sinckler was very lucky to be only let off with a penalty.

POM may also be in a little hot water after his clash with Hogg.

I have a feeling the citing officer will be busy.

by Collapse2005 Mon 11 Feb 2019, 3:54 pm

Do you have a link to the POM clash? I think I must have thought Hoggs injury came from another collision as I dont recall him clashing with POM.

by Collapse2005 Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:03 pm

Actually see it here:

https://extra.ie/2019/02/09/sport/rugby/omahony-stuart-hogg

It should have been a penalty, not sure if much more. Maybe a yellow.

You only get a citing if it was a red dont you? Cant see how that would merit a red.

by Scottrf Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:05 pm

LondonTiger wrote: but it looked like a shoulder to the head to me and would have been a red card in the premiership.

It feels to me like they've abandoned carding players for high tackles. They were really hot on it for one season.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:07 pm

They've certainly abandoned penalising crooked feeds.

by Guest Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:11 pm

Dirty play from PoM. Dirty, dirty bas turd.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:11 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Actually see it here:

https://extra.ie/2019/02/09/sport/rugby/omahony-stuart-hogg

It should have been a penalty, not sure if much more. Maybe a yellow.

You only get a citing if it was a red dont you? Cant see how that would merit a red.

Disgraceful from POM, red all day long.

by Collapse2005 Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:15 pm

Meh.If Itoje can jump on Earls and not get carded this is much ado about nothing for me. It was cynical and possible fortunate to not get a yellow but no worse that what Maro did.

by Guest Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:17 pm

king_carlos wrote:Sinckler was really dumb and let the France 7 rile him up too easily. In a different game it could have been very costly and a yellow card I wouldn't have queried at all.

Farrell was lucky not to connect with a swinging arm early in the second half as well. A French forward was holding his arm by a ruck to stop him getting back in the line, Farrell swung his other arm behind him to free the arm being held but came close to connecting with a swinging arm.

It's area where I think England can improve, conceding silly penalties and controlling their aggression.

Jones has built a side that he encourages to be very aggressive in defense and play near that line but some are better at it than others in my opinion. I think it's noticeable that England's best defenders so far in Mako, Curry, Lawes and Wilson are all guys who control that aggression very well and don't get sucked into the extra curricular handbags and histrionics.

This is why I think it's worth being a bit hesitant when it comes to England. A number of their leadership group - Farrell and Itoje - are prone to losing it/wanting to rile the opposition. How often and damaging is that? Depends, really. For instance it was very possible that Mako's non-try against Ireland could have been ruled out for Itoje holding Sexton in the ruck. In fact, against a different referee, it could easily have been given - 3-4 warnings, Sexton trying to wriggle and then having to hit him. If it was on the openside I think it would've been. A savvier/luckier team will use this against England.

But you add in Sinkler, Tuilagi, Ashton potentially and Brown, and there are players there who can be volatile. Also, the Saracens players as a group are so used to dominating - and have the attitude to go with that - that if and or when a team can match them and put them under pressure I'm not sure the experience of keeping their cool on the backfoot and still winning is there. The Ireland games was surprising/positive for them as that was the first such instance - battering Ireland where they could and using the 'better'/more settled team's strengths against them. Perhaps SA too. But during the losing streak, particularly the Scotland game, you saw the heads go when the manic aggression EJ had fostered in them wasn't working. Looks to have turned that around now.

But still - no need for the sort of petulance on Saturday. France unsurprisingly started being dirty but you don't wind up a windwill of a slap right onto his cranium. Be subtle.

by robbo277 Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:18 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:He hit the guy on the head. It was moronic and more a yellow than Hugets brain fart. After pontificating and hogging the limelight as usual Owens wimped out on that one.

Does that count as a hit? He forcefully grabbed him by the headguard, it wasn't a strike. Yes, there was a force in his arm, but he didn't thump him with a fist, he grabbed him and shouted at him.

Silly? Yes. Penalty offence? Yes. Card? Not for me.

by Collapse2005 Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:23 pm

robbo277 wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:He hit the guy on the head. It was moronic and more a yellow than Hugets brain fart. After pontificating and hogging the limelight as usual Owens wimped out on that one.

Does that count as a hit? He forcefully grabbed him by the headguard, it wasn't a strike. Yes, there was a force in his arm, but he didn't thump him with a fist, he grabbed him and shouted at him.

Silly? Yes. Penalty offence? Yes. Card? Not for me.

If it was football the french guy would have to go to hospital for suspected brain damage. There was enough of a strike for me for it to be penalised. Maybe not a yellow.

by robbo277 Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:28 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Actually see it here:

https://extra.ie/2019/02/09/sport/rugby/omahony-stuart-hogg

It should have been a penalty, not sure if much more. Maybe a yellow.

You only get a citing if it was a red dont you? Cant see how that would merit a red.

If the citing commissioner deems it worthy of a red card, then you get cited and you get called in to discuss why it shouldn't be.

A citing commissioner can also issue a "citing commissioner warning" if he feels it is just below that level. This goes against the player and team's disciplinary record, but there is no immediate ban.

by majesticimperialman Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:32 pm

I an very surprised that the lines man did not pick up the punch from the French 7.

IF there was a punch throne? Was it not the same player that threw a punch mintues later at Farell's head?

by Scottrf Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:33 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:IF there was a punch throne?

I really don't think we should glorify violence this much.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:36 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Meh.If Itoje can jump on Earls and not get carded this is much ado about nothing for me. It was cynical and possible fortunate to not get a yellow but no worse that what Maro did.

Personally I thought Itoje should have seen yellow even if it was clumsy rather than deliberate, but Curry not. As for this one it is late, shoulder only and quite deliberate. Yellow card all day long for me and certainly worse than either of the challenges last week by England players.

However with our personal biases we do see these slightly differently.

by majesticimperialman Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:37 pm

Scottrf wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:IF there was a punch throne?

I really don't think we should glorify violence this much.

I am not trying to glorify violence. It is that every one is calling for sinclaire to be cited. But what about the French player who started it in the first place.

by dummy_half Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:57 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Meh.If Itoje can jump on Earls and not get carded this is much ado about nothing for me. It was cynical and possible fortunate to not get a yellow but no worse that what Maro did.

Personally I thought Itoje should have seen yellow even if it was clumsy rather than deliberate, but Curry not. As for this one it is late, shoulder only and quite deliberate. Yellow card all day long for me and certainly worse than either of the challenges last week by England players.

However with our personal biases we do see these slightly differently.

To demonstrate that, I thought the officials got it about right with Curry and Itoje -Curry was a touch late and hard, Itoje was clumsy and exacerbated by the blocking off of May, who was supposed to be challenging for the ball with Maro in support.

by lostinwales Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:59 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:IF there was a punch throne?

I really don't think we should glorify violence this much.

I am not trying to glorify violence. It is that every one is calling for sinclaire to be cited. But what about the French player who started it in the first place.

Read your original quote more carefully...

by No 7&1/2 Mon 11 Feb 2019, 5:00 pm

You don't get penalised for a hard tackle. So to speak.

by dummy_half Mon 11 Feb 2019, 5:12 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You don't get penalised for a hard tackle. So to speak.

But if you are late, going through with a big hit is much more likely to see you penalised and carded than if you just grab someone and drag them down.

by Presuming Ed Mon 11 Feb 2019, 5:18 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Actually see it here:

https://extra.ie/2019/02/09/sport/rugby/omahony-stuart-hogg

It should have been a penalty, not sure if much more. Maybe a yellow.

You only get a citing if it was a red dont you? Cant see how that would merit a red.

Very cynical.

by Presuming Ed Mon 11 Feb 2019, 5:25 pm

Is there any footage of the alleged foul play on Sinkler leading up to skullcapgate?

by Collapse2005 Mon 11 Feb 2019, 5:49 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Meh.If Itoje can jump on Earls and not get carded this is much ado about nothing for me. It was cynical and possible fortunate to not get a yellow but no worse that what Maro did.

Personally I thought Itoje should have seen yellow even if it was clumsy rather than deliberate, but Curry not. As for this one it is late, shoulder only and quite deliberate. Yellow card all day long for me and certainly worse than either of the challenges last week by England players.

However with our personal biases we do see these slightly differently.

Yeah not sure I would be convinced the Itoje collision wasnt deliberate. Pretty sure he knew what he was doing.

by Guest Mon 11 Feb 2019, 6:32 pm

Itoje knew what he was doing. The overrun by France yesterday looked more clueless - but still a penalty. Think the ref got it right - Curry sped up as Earls was in kicking motion and, realistically, never stood a chance of actually charging the ball down. It's marginal - and it wasn't a shoulder charge as the AR said - but yellow correct. Itoje's was stupid and could easily be yellow depending on situation but probably correct just a penalty and warning. Ultimately, targeting Earls worked for England so you'd hope yellows are given out when it's a clear tactic to 'rough up' a specific player.

by lostinwales Mon 11 Feb 2019, 6:39 pm

miaow wrote:Itoje knew what he was doing. The overrun by France yesterday looked more clueless - but still a penalty. Think the ref got it right - Curry sped up as Earls was in kicking motion and, realistically, never stood a chance of actually charging the ball down. It's marginal - and it wasn't a shoulder charge as the AR said - but yellow correct. Itoje's was stupid and could easily be yellow depending on situation but probably correct just a penalty and warning. Ultimately, targeting Earls worked for England so you'd hope yellows are given out when it's a clear tactic to 'rough up' a specific player.

The latest I have heard is that Earls was injured at the kick off - but I don't know how.

by BamBam Mon 11 Feb 2019, 6:54 pm

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/keith-earls-i-usually-know-my-body-i-should-have-come-off-earlier-37787194.html

by Guest Mon 11 Feb 2019, 6:55 pm

Think he fielded the ball at the kick off and either twisted a knee or took a big hit. They targeted Earls as he would have chased Murray's exit kick - instead, at the bottom of the ruck, Murray put it out, England took a lineout over the top, and several phases later they had a try.

Roughing up Earls with two similar actions was intentional, no doubt. If not to actively injure him it was to put him off his game/minimise his aerial ability and, therefore, Ireland's whole gameplan.

England did a similar thing last year to Steff Evans on the wing, although more as an attacking/crossfield ploy. And it mostly worked. They also kicked loads yesterday and absolutely ruined France, even if France refused to defend properly. I'd expect more tactically aware kicking again. It's a major facet of England's game with Farrell and now Slade. EJ's finally found his left footed 2nd 5/8th option without having to pick Cipriani and, so far, it's paying off.

EDIT: There you go, link provided above.

by majesticimperialman Mon 11 Feb 2019, 6:56 pm

lostinwales wrote:
miaow wrote:Itoje knew what he was doing. The overrun by France yesterday looked more clueless - but still a penalty. Think the ref got it right - Curry sped up as Earls was in kicking motion and, realistically, never stood a chance of actually charging the ball down. It's marginal - and it wasn't a shoulder charge as the AR said - but yellow correct. Itoje's was stupid and could easily be yellow depending on situation but probably correct just a penalty and warning. Ultimately, targeting Earls worked for England so you'd hope yellows are given out when it's a clear tactic to 'rough up' a specific player.

The latest I have heard is that Earls was injured at the kick off - but I don't know how.

Was it not Atoje with the first tackle of the game?

by lostinwales Mon 11 Feb 2019, 7:53 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
miaow wrote:Itoje knew what he was doing. The overrun by France yesterday looked more clueless - but still a penalty. Think the ref got it right - Curry sped up as Earls was in kicking motion and, realistically, never stood a chance of actually charging the ball down. It's marginal - and it wasn't a shoulder charge as the AR said - but yellow correct. Itoje's was stupid and could easily be yellow depending on situation but probably correct just a penalty and warning. Ultimately, targeting Earls worked for England so you'd hope yellows are given out when it's a clear tactic to 'rough up' a specific player.

The latest I have heard is that Earls was injured at the kick off - but I don't know how.

Was it not Atoje with the first tackle of the game?

Atoje and Otoje were not playing. Neither was Tuilangi

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