Wage cap - Updated with news on Saracens Punishment

First topic message reminder :

Saracens have made the following statement.
"
Club Statement - Co-investment partnerships between the Saracens owner and players.

Following a newspaper article, the Club would like to make the following statement: 

“Firstly, we would like to reiterate that the Club readily complies with Premiership Rugby salary regulations and information relating to remuneration is declared to the salary cap manager. Although co-investment partnerships between owners and players are not a prerequisite of the salary regulations, we disclose these transactions to Premiership Rugby and will continue to do so. 

“Currently, 57% of the men’s squad is comprised of home grown talent - the highest in the Premiership. These players not only produce results on the pitch, they help entitle the Club to £1.2m in credits above the baseline salary cap from the RFU and Premiership Rugby. This is a direct result of our significant investment in the Saracens Academy which nurtures and develops Saracens and England players of the future. 

“A professional playing career in rugby can be short. We have a responsibility to help our players fulfil their potential, not just on the pitch but off it too.  It is why our Academy incorporates an education programme that actively prepares players for life beyond the sport. We are encouraged that many of our senior players are exploring business opportunities away from rugby.”

To me it just seems to be we're doing good work for the England team so don't pry!

LondonTiger wrote:Ampthill are currently getting loans from Saracens.

Paul Turner has never had it so good.

"Nigel Wray, Saracens chairman, said: “We have made mistakes and so, with humility, we must accept these penalties. As a club, we will now pull together and meet the challenges that lie ahead.

“We confirm our commitment to the salary cap, and the underlying principle of a level playing field, and will continue to work transparently with Premiership Rugby in this regard.”

Someone's changed their tune today !!

Maybe they sacked Prince Andrew as their PR guru?

Gooseberry wrote:Maybe they sacked Prince Andrew as their PR guru?

Not sure. Still effectively saying:

We didn't do it.
We didn't do it.
We really didn't do it.
OK we are not perfect.
We do not sweat.
We like pizza.
We didn't do it.
Even if we did it is not a crime.

Oh and that has just reminded me of "Pizzagate"

LondonTiger wrote:Oh and that has just reminded me of "Pizzagate"

......... denial, denial, denial........

Yes indeed, Pizzagate don't sound so fruity now, do it.  Not that it ever did if you heard Prince Andrew Mark1, James Alefantis in 'interview'.

I'll be selling unused tin foil hats at my usual haunt around the corner.  But people better be quick! They're actually starting to sell now!

What players contracts are up for renewal at Sarries at the end of this season. Could they struggle to be under the cap for next year. I assume they are over this year which is included in the punishment.

They confirm their commitment?

Surely a renewal would be more appropriate than a confirmation, given they've just been deducted 35 BLYDI POINTS...

miaow wrote:They confirm their commitment?

Surely a renewal would be more appropriate than a confirmation, given they've just been deducted 35 BLYDI POINTS...

Cant confirm somthing you ain't been doing. Cant renew it either.

Correct wording would be "We will commit to the salary cap regulations"

Thing I dont get is that they still have the same squad of players this season so either the players are all going to take a salary reduction or sarries will be in breech again come the end of the season and they will be in the same position as they are in right now???

tigertattie wrote:

miaow wrote:They confirm their commitment?

Surely a renewal would be more appropriate than a confirmation, given they've just been deducted 35 BLYDI POINTS...

Cant confirm somthing you ain't been doing. Cant renew it either.

Correct wording would be "We will commit to the salary cap regulations"

Thing I dont get is that they still have the same squad of players this season so either the players are all going to take a salary reduction or sarries will be in breech again come the end of the season and they will be in the same position as they are in right now???

Not necessarily.

If going over the cap was only done through the co investments, the players could "buy out" Nigel, or the companies liquidated to bring them back under the cap

tigertattie wrote:

miaow wrote:They confirm their commitment?

Surely a renewal would be more appropriate than a confirmation, given they've just been deducted 35 BLYDI POINTS...

Cant confirm somthing you ain't been doing. Cant renew it either.

Correct wording would be "We will commit to the salary cap regulations"

Thing I dont get is that they still have the same squad of players this season so either the players are all going to take a salary reduction or sarries will be in breech again come the end of the season and they will be in the same position as they are in right now???

They are rumoured to be £650k over. If Liam Williams doesn't play this season then he wouldn't count towards the cap and around £300-£350k would come off that amount. If they can structure some of the salaries around for best marquee use or injury cap dispensation then they could bring it down low enough to only get a smaller fine with a little clear out in the summer.

tigertattie wrote:

miaow wrote:They confirm their commitment?

Surely a renewal would be more appropriate than a confirmation, given they've just been deducted 35 BLYDI POINTS...

Cant confirm somthing you ain't been doing. Cant renew it either.

Correct wording would be "We will commit to the salary cap regulations"

Thing I dont get is that they still have the same squad of players this season so either the players are all going to take a salary reduction or sarries will be in breech again come the end of the season and they will be in the same position as they are in right now???

Well, yeah, quite - but surely they had committed, but broke it. Hence the need to renew and refresh that commitment, and admit fault. 'Confirmation' suggests that it's just a little rubberstamp and a verification - basically, linguistics aside, the point I'm making it's just another weasel way of denying responsibility and wrongdoing.

I would have thought LW would be on more than £300k tbh. In some ways it's not surprising he's rumoured to be off. He'd probably get about 66% of that oming back to Wales, and while that third isn't to be sniffed at, it's not as drastic as I perhaps thought. Would have assumed he was on jut under £500k, but then I suppose they agreed terms before he was starting 15 for the Lions - that might have bumped up his price a bit!

carpet baboon wrote:

tigertattie wrote:

miaow wrote:They confirm their commitment?

Surely a renewal would be more appropriate than a confirmation, given they've just been deducted 35 BLYDI POINTS...

Cant confirm somthing you ain't been doing. Cant renew it either.

Correct wording would be "We will commit to the salary cap regulations"

Thing I dont get is that they still have the same squad of players this season so either the players are all going to take a salary reduction or sarries will be in breech again come the end of the season and they will be in the same position as they are in right now???

Not necessarily.

If going over the cap was only done through the co investments, the players could "buy out" Nigel, or the companies liquidated to bring them back under the cap

Hmmm its all rather clouded!

I also struggle with the 35 point deduction. If we work on last year's table, taking 35 points off Sarries total of 78 would reduce them to 43 points which would have seen them safe against both the Tigers and Newcastle. if the same thing happens this year, then all Sarries are getting hit with the the inability to finish in the top half of the table and therefore wont get into the Champions cup for one year!

No title and no Europe is a big deal for a club like Saracens. For any other club, 35 points would mean a real relegation scrap - it still will, let's be honest. They're not guaranteed survival, particularly if they need to shed a few players, and the bottom half somehow stays competitive. In reality, it might even by 2 years of hampering them in Europe, as the loss against Racing might be the catalyst to throw the ECC for the sake of the bread and butter - league survival.

The minimum 2 league points they were gifted by the ref against London Irish could turn out to be important now ...

miaow wrote:I would have thought LW would be on more than £300k tbh. In some ways it's not surprising he's rumoured to be off. He'd probably get about 66% of that oming back to Wales, and while that third isn't to be sniffed at, it's not as drastic as I perhaps thought. Would have assumed he was on jut under £500k, but then I suppose they agreed terms before he was starting 15 for the Lions - that might have bumped up his price a bit!

I thought part of the reason he went to Sarries was because his girlfriend is based in London. Sarries pay well but he could have got more in France. As you say they got the deal done before the Lions wonder try which was good timing. I'm also only guessing as to what he's on. Sarries probably can't afford to spend mega cash there's Farrell and Itoje who will be on top dollar and the marquee players.

Eddie Jones suggesting today that some of the Sarries players may end up skipping the 6N to play for the club instead, which would allow them to get a lot more games in.

I guess if they are going to do that, then this might be the year to do it when they could do with a bit of a rest in any case and EJ might want to try out a few new players.

Might not go down so well with the England fans though, especially if they end up getting humped.

I think the likelihood of that happening is slim to none. EJ is a top class WUM.

BigGee wrote:Eddie Jones suggesting today that some of the Sarries players may end up skipping the 6N to play for the club instead, which would allow them to get a lot more games in.

I guess if they are going to do that, then this might be the year to do it when they could do with a bit of a rest in any case and EJ might want to try out a few new players.

Might not go down so well with the England fans though, especially if they end up getting humped.

They pretty much all have EPS contracts, so if they choose to play for Sarries rather than England they have to gice that money back and would drive Saracens over the cap again as there would be no England allowance. Nor would they be getting any rest.

If Eddie chooses to rest them however and enforces the EPS rules and does not release them back to the club, we'll that would be OK.

The RFU would be more than a little annoyed. They have scheduled a development summer tour which will feature none of the world cup players.

Eddie is having fun with the media and protecting his players. He's good at that.

Well lets see where Sarries are in the table come 6N time in February.

Unfortunately for them, there does not look like being one obvious fall guy this year, LI and Worcester have made decent enough starts and you would even imagine that Leicester and Wasps will get their act together at some stage. Its likely to be a real dog fight down there and everyone will take points off each other at some stage.

If they are still well adrift come the spring, them all bets might be off!

35 points seem too much. At this point it looks as if they'll be relegated, because Tigers and Wasps will surely improve, both are top 6 material. The rest already have this head start whilst the other teams' internationals are away, but they'd be good anyway when they haven't been so competitive in the past (Glaws, Sale, Bristol).

miaow wrote:I would have thought LW would be on more than £300k tbh. In some ways it's not surprising he's rumoured to be off. He'd probably get about 66% of that oming back to Wales, and while that third isn't to be sniffed at, it's not as drastic as I perhaps thought. Would have assumed he was on jut under £500k, but then I suppose they agreed terms before he was starting 15 for the Lions - that might have bumped up his price a bit!

Williams has apparently been offered the same sort of money that AWJ, North and Halfpenny are on which is circa £350k. Rumours are he wants more but the WRU won't budge the ceiling for dual contracts. So if the regions want him it would have to be without a dual contract as Dragons got Moriarty.

Williams is almost certainly Saracens second marquee player. If he didn't play this season then they could elect a different marquee player, but the only members of their squad who qualify for that spot is Rhys Carre who will be on a fraction of what Williams is on.

mikey_dragon wrote:35 points seem too much. At this point it looks as if they'll be relegated, because Tigers and Wasps will surely improve, both are top 6 material.

Clubs sometimes get in a death spiral. Leicester nearly came a cropper from one last season. It largely depends on whether Saracens can get up a head of steam to put themselves in touch, and pressure teams above them. While fighting on all fronts in a normal season puts pressure on the squad, it can also create momentum. If Saracens suffer more reverses in Europe, like the one against Racing, then it could breed an unfamiliar uncertainty. A few key Premiership losses before the Six Nations starts could hole their campaign below the waterline.

God I can just hear the BT presenters breathless cliche'd coverage of Saracens "do or die" games and their "gritty resilience to never give in to the odds", totally ignoring why the odds are stacked against them. And how they'd stacked all the odds in their favour the last few seasons.

The BBC podcast is interesting this week. Danny Care and Chris Ashton are friendly but they have very different ideas about how to see the Saracens offence. For Care, Saracens cheated, and it taints their titles in his eyes. Ashton believes Wray was trying to help his players first and foremost, rather than cheat the cap, so feels framing it purely as an attempt to do the latter is unfair.

They cheated fans up and down the country. 100% deserve all that is coming to them.

Maybe the £5m could be given back to fans who splashed out to watch their teams take on Sarries in finals and semi finals?

Rugby Fan wrote: Ashton believes Wray was trying to help his players first and foremost, rather than cheat the cap, so feels framing it purely as an attempt to do the latter is unfair.

I'm (be)shocked I tells ye !

Rugby Fan wrote:The BBC podcast is interesting this week. Danny Care and Chris Ashton are friendly but they have very different ideas about how to see the Saracens offence. For Care, Saracens cheated, and it taints their titles in his eyes. Ashton believes Wray was trying to help his players first and foremost, rather than cheat the cap, so feels framing it purely as an attempt to do the latter is unfair.

As Saracens defence was that the Cap is against Competition Laws with "we done nuffink wrong, and we just forgot to tell you about this" the secondary defence, seems to me Sarries management knew this was dodgy,

People in glass houses though should be careful of throwing stones Danny.

Interesting suggestion was they could have given Sarries a 15/20pt deficit for each game. Would have made each game interesting. Not sure some of the teams like Northampton would think it a big enough cushion.

It would also mean that the other teams could pick up points v sarries rather than Sarries getting points and the other teams still losing out.

I'm amazed people are surprised by BT sport's defence of Saracens.
Wray and BT have been hand in glove since they decided to take over the European cup.
No chance BT will now publicly state they are cheats.

Brendan wrote:Interesting suggestion was they could have given Sarries a 15/20pt deficit for each game.  Would have made each game interesting.  Not sure some of the teams like Northampton would think it a big enough cushion.

It would also mean that the other teams could pick up points v sarries rather than Sarries getting points and the other teams still losing out.

Interesting but not in the rules.

If they get relegated, so be it. They have cheated, let's not pretend. That's followed on from a decade of 'bending the rules' as well. Live with the consequences, and that now means they're fighting for league survival.

Isnt the league being ring fenced this season anyway so they wont be relegated.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Isnt the league being ring fenced this season anyway so they wont be relegated.

We'd surely already know if it was. Last time the topic came up, there was no agreement.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Isnt the league being ring fenced this season anyway so they wont be relegated.

Even if it is, there is still relegation. RFU stated that tournament rules cannot be changed during the season.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Isnt the league being ring fenced this season anyway so they wont be relegated.

Even if it is, there is still relegation. RFU stated that tournament rules cannot be changed during the season.

It won't ring fence until someone they can do without goes down - if Saracens are relegated they'll bounce straight back up and then depending on who looks like going down the following season they'll do it then.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/saracens-players-vetoing-the-six-nations-would-be-positive-for-england

Could the Sarries players sitting out the 6N be good for England in the longer term?

BigGee wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/saracens-players-vetoing-the-six-nations-would-be-positive-for-england

Could the Sarries players sitting out the 6N be good for England in the longer term?

If Saracens get away with letting their international players stay with the club during the six nations won't the other clubs want the same thing - for example if Leicester, Quins or Wasps are still in the bottom four will they want to keep their international players to ensure they avoid relegation?

If Saracens Internationals are denied International...... well, they'll probably be best pi-ssed to put it mildly - as they all know that if others shine at International, especially in a real contest like 6N, then their places become at least theoretically less assured.  
Then bad growling and grumbling blood is introduced into Saracens squad for perhaps the first time.  Disquiet then potentially further unsettles rhythms, relationships and results.

I think Saracens would be very careful not to upset the full ambitions of their players, which inevitably for some is as fixed on those International shirts as they are the Saracens ones.

Tough decisions for Saracens all round.  Potential banana skins all over the place no matter which way they turn now.

SecretFly wrote:If Saracens Internationals are denied International...... well, they'll probably be best pi-ssed to put it mildly - as they all know that if others shine at International, especially in a real contest like 6N, then their places become at least theoretically less assured.  
Then bad growling and grumbling blood is introduced into Saracens squad for perhaps the first time.  Disquiet then potentially further unsettles rhythms, relationships and results.

I think Saracens would be very careful not to upset the full ambitions of their players, which inevitably for some is as fixed on those International shirts as they are the Saracens ones.

Tough decisions for Saracens all round.  Potential banana skins all over the place no matter which way they turn now.

I am not sure that Sarries can deny their players to play international rugby, it would be the players choice.

They would be in a difficult position though, especially if relegation becomes a realistic possibility, as that would also affect their International chances.

As you say, tough choices!

It's worth noting that if Sarries do get relegated then their internationals would be playing in the Championship and without European Rugby in the season leading up to the next Lions tour.

Would Sarries not loan out a lot of their top internationals in that case?

BigGee wrote:

They would be in a difficult position though, especially if relegation becomes a realistic possibility, as that would also affect their International chances.

As you say, tough choices!

They'd migrate.  I'm sure all smart player contracts controlled by agents includes clauses on actions of their client if relegation happens.  It might seem a remote possibility in the extreme when players are signing but I'd presume smart agents still demand such Out clauses even for such remote possibilities.

On the other point about player choices to go to International.  Yes of course but we all know how it works with internal pressures/goadings/pleas coming from familiar faces at Saracens.  Saracens still are their main paymaster. The pressures would be on and even if player's relented and stayed with the club, they'd still feel aggrieved.

Oh anyway, we'll see.

i wouldnt be surprised at all if the Sarries players choose to play for their club during the 6Nations.

from their point of view, if they don't play for Sarries, and that contributes to Sarries getting relegated, then they will either be playing in the Championship next season or they will have to leave their club! and most of their England stars have never played anywhere else.

35 points is a big hit. i think the relegation score will be north of 40 this year as there is no obvious weak team like Newcastle last year. Relegation cutoff could even be as high as 45.

relegation below 40 means Sarries need 62 points from 18 matches, almost 3.5 points per match. relegation below 45 means they would need 67 points, just over 3.75 points per match.

In the past 3 seasons Sarries have averaged almost exactly 3.5 points per match.....

if Sarries come through this, they are going to be one tight group of players. But i think its a fairly big IF.

Oh they'll work something out. Saracens is designated feeder club for England International anyway. So words between RFU and Saracens will get some kind of half'n'half agreement in situ......

Well, the WRU are already trying to get Liam Williams back in Wales. Are the vultures circling ?

quinsforever wrote:i wouldnt be surprised at all if the Sarries players choose to play for their club during the 6Nations.

...

It may be nothing more than Eddie's musings, and if so it's getting more air-time than it merits (he does seem to enjoy a bit of pot-stirring and I'm fairly sure that's all this is). And if players decide to play for their club and be unavailable for England then that is of course their choice and I would respect that. However, my choice (if I were in Eddie's position) would be that any player putting club before country would basically disqualify themselves from future involvement unless/until they demonstrate that playing for their country is their number 1 rugby priority. This isn't the first time there have been England players at clubs involved in a relegation fight, but as far as I'm aware it would be the first time if they chose not to play for England as a result (please correct me if wrong).

The idea that any England player would give up the chance of a Grand Slam success for the sake of helping their club possibly avoid relegation is insane. I know players go on about staying humble and worrying about records when they retire, but that's kidology - they care, and it only takes the idea of records and medals being taken away from them to bring that to the fore. Just talk to Mike Phillips and Roberts about Wales caps.

EJ has played a blinder. His little troll bomb has worked a treat if people take it seriously. He wants to try and get English Rugby and even the press - often bloodthirsty, and they're famished at the moment - to see the bigger picture and how twisting the knife in to Sarries will only hurt England. 'Go easy on my boys'. EJ knows he needs Sarries to be strong. He's also a former Sarries coach, let's not forget, so won't enjoy seeing them punished.

It's not a serious suggestion, but it's worked wonders.