The Ashes - official thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

Seeing as this starts next week, I'll kick it off - the Aussies have selected their 17 man squad


Australia's Ashes squad: Tim Paine (c), Cameron Bancroft, Pat Cummins, Marcus Harris, Josh Hazlewood, Travis Head, Usman Khawaja, Marnus Labuschagne, Nathan Lyon, Mitchell Marsh, Michael Neser, James Pattinson, Peter Siddle, Steven Smith, Mitchell Starc, Matthew Wade, David Warner.

Main takeaway there is no specialist spinner selected behind Lyon, with Neser included suggests they don't anticipate many, if any, spinning wickets...

[alfie]

I guess Cricinfo isn't always correct in their predictions...

But assuming this does happen it seems more than a little odd.Apparently Root is willing to try it ; but why ? Roy was brought in to see if he could translate his white ball skills to Tests : if he succeeds , why would you want to move him down to the already overcrowded middle order ? And Denly - who still has much to prove - isn't going to prove he's a good choice as opener by batting at four - even if Root doesn't run him out
I'd have thought if they are sticking with this top three from the Ireland Test it makes sense to stick with the same order. If they really want to push Root up (I wouldn't ; but he has the class to do it if he has to) then as several have said why not pick someone like Malan instead of an underperforming opener or an opener out of position ?

As to the bowlers it seems to me current conditions might suit the expected three of Woakes Broad and Anderson. With five matches close together they won't all last the lot ; and introducing Archer later in the series on pitches that might call for the high pace option , like Manchester and the Oval , strikes me as the best use of resources ...he might also have had some red ball work with his county by then.

Obviously a lot could change once the action starts and we see how the opponents face off. But given the squad available the above seems logical for Edgbaston. Even if we don't approve of the batting order !

[JDizzle]

It’s also a shame Joe Clarke’s fallen away as he’s a marvellous talent

Currently banned from England selection any way.

Is that an official thing now? Because he did get a ban (backdated... for the Lions tour that he missed, cop out) and a fine so his case has been heard. Before I presumed he not being picked till it had been resolved.

All academic seen as he’s not scored a run since the first game.

[LondonTiger]

It’s also a shame Joe Clarke’s fallen away as he’s a marvellous talent

Currently banned from England selection any way.

Is that an official thing now? Because he did get a ban (backdated... for the Lions tour that he missed, cop out) and a fine so his case has been heard. Before I presumed he not being picked till it had been resolved.

All academic seen as he’s not scored a run since the first game.

I had missed that the hearing happened while I was on holiday. As you say the 4 match ban for both men was backdated.

[Gooseberry]

Agree Alfie, although i will say Curran might feel a little hard done by and the proposed selection goes against the selectors on desire to have a bowler who offers something different. Earlier reports suggested Archer wouldnt be fit for this test anyway, and he certainly would benefit form a bit more preparation and the sort of pitch that will need that fast bowler rather than the expected green top for this one. 

Forecasts have it cloudy and humid for the first two days with rain over the weekend, and theoretically Monday if enough overs are lost for the batsmen to survive that long.Although the pitch has been reported as looking a bit dry theres rain due today and its pretty cloudy and humid, so some green could appear. Another good toss to lose maybe! But certainly express pace and leg spinners wont be needed to take wickets, the mid paced England attack should be able to seam and swing the ball all over the place. 

Indications are that the Aussies are picking Pattinson Cummins, Lyon ..then one from Hazelwood, Starc and Siddle presumably based on a late reading of conditions. Leaving out Starc seems a huge call regardless of his pre-world cup form (like err taking 10 wickets in his last test). But if its a green top under classic British weather then Hazelwood or Siddle would be horses for courses picks. 

Presumably they have to pick Marsh in the middle order to have a 4th seamer option. Even if its likely to be a short game the other option for spare bowling is pretty much non existent or leaving themselves with a huge tail. 

So... 
Warner, Bancroft, Usman, Smith, Wade, Marsh, Paine, Cummins, Patinson, Lyon, other seamer

A real contrast to England with a solid in form looking top order but a hugely dubious lower middle. Wade I assume will win a spot back by sheer weight of runs hes scored in the warm up / A games but I'm still not convinced hes any better than the junk England have. Marsh and Paine are definitely in the mediocre test bats category, and none of the Aussie bowlers are quite Woakes or Moeenonagoodday. 


Another point to note...England have had pretty bad starts to test series with the bat recently, their first test first innings scores: 

2018 : NZ 58 Pakistan 186  India 287  Sri Lanka  342
2019:  West Indies 77  Ireland 85

Confidence, nerves, new top three combinations, adaptation to red ball cricket? Maybe the Ireland test will have got some of that out of the way coming so close to this series. But don't bet your $100 on them making 300 against a strong new ball attack.

[alfie]

58 .77.85. Wow

Only way is up , I guess

It is a worry though. Think they'd kill for 300 first up...even 250 ?

[Duty281]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2019/jul/30/ashes-2019-19-things-to-look-out-for-in-the-england-v-australia-series-cricket

Interesting to note that teams will lose points in the Test Championship because of slow over rates. Good call, ICC. Shirt numbers on the back? Silly call.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

So it is confirmed, England have gone barmy and Denly will bat at 4. This is literally the worst of all their options in my opinion, I'd rather they shifted Buttler/Stokes all up one, and brought in Curran/Woakes to 7 and essentially play Stokes as a specialist bat who can bowl a few overs if desperate.

Burns, Roy, Root, Stokes, Buttler, Bairstow, Woakes, Curran, Ali, Broad, Anderson looks much better to me than
Burns, Roy, Root, Denly, Buttler, Stokes, Bairstow, Woakes, Ali, Broad, Anderson

The mad thing is, they're doing this full well knowing Denly will likely be dropped for Lords when he fails. So frustrating

[LondonTiger]

Purported Aussie team:

Bancroft, Warner, Khawaja, Smith, Head, Wade, Pain (C, WK), Cummins, Pattinson, Lyon +1

Apparently Starc, Haslewood and Siddle all in contention for the final spot.

[Gooseberry]

Purported Aussie team:

Bancroft, Warner, Khawaja, Smith, Head, Wade, Pain (C, WK), Cummins, Pattinson, Lyon +1

Apparently Starc, Haslewood and Siddle all in contention for the final spot.

Crikey Id assumed it would be Marsh for Head, no real fifth bowling option says it all about how much they respect Englands batting line up (and maybe their own lower middle). Might also explain their reluctance to pick 3 out and out pace bowlers who would struggle if asked to bowl 20 overs in a day.

[Soul Requiem]

It's going to be a low scoring series that's for sure, a lot of hype surrounding Smith as always but as soon as the ball moves around he's pretty hopeless as are Khawaja and the rest of that middle order. I can't help but think Root, Stokes and Buttler are the key players.

[KP_fan]

Australia is seemingly putting together a pretty solid team
Khawaja, smith , warner Bancroft, Wade, Head
and bowlers who can all hold the bat

Bowling & bowlers ability to bat I would say is even compared to Eng
Spin and specialist batting better for Aus

[Gooseberry]

bowlers ability to bat I would say is even compared to Eng

Really?

Even if Starc of the 3 up for debate plays they have no test centuries between them, only Anderson of England bowlers doesnt. Woakes averages over 41 in England.


On a side note theres 7 players listed as keepers on cricinfo playing in this test despite Popes injury and Foakes being left out. Of the remaining batsmen only Roy hasnt bowled in tests ( hes only played one and has a first class bowling average of 35). Head covers both sets.
Is there such a thing as a specialist batsman now?

[Jetty]

Mail

England will leave until Wednesday the decision on whether to go with the proven Ashes pedigree of Broad or include Curran at his expense.

Woakes, Curran and rusty Anderson all 82mph shortish bowlers.

Drop Burns to get Curran in the team. Roy Denly Root Stokes Bairstow Curran Buttler Woakes Ali Broad Anderson

I can see Woakes Curran and Archer playing in the 2nd Test onwards to get runs and Anderson and Broad dropped.

[king_carlos]

If Anderson is fit he will play. He's England's best test bowler by a mile. His record for Lancs this season suggests what many have thought is the case, he is still improving.

Archer breaking in as the 3rd seamer is a real possibility.

I think Broad will definitely play a part in the series as England rotate their seamers.

In terms of batting depth I can't see Woakes and Curran being left out for the same game.

8.Ali
9.Woakes/Curran
10.Broad/Archer
11.Anderson

I think that's what we will see over the series with a fair bit of rotation.

[Gooseberry]

Drop Burns to get Curran in the team. Roy Denly Root Stokes Bairstow Curran Buttler Woakes Ali Broad Anderson

I can see Woakes Curran and Archer playing in the 2nd Test onwards to get runs and Anderson and Broad dropped.

Yep 5 medium paced seamers and no openers is absolutely the answer to englands batting woes

[VTR]

Anderson won't be dropped to get someone who can bat in instead. Curran is not a Test number 6 at this stage. Woakes is not short and not 82mph. Archer won't be picked to make runs.

Other than that, I agree with Jetty's post

[KP_fan]

bowlers ability to bat I would say is even compared to Eng

Really?

Even if Starc of the 3 up for debate plays they have no test centuries between them, only Anderson of England bowlers doesnt. Woakes averages over 41 in England.


On a side note theres 7 players listed as keepers on cricinfo playing in this test despite Popes injury and Foakes being left out. Of the remaining batsmen only Roy hasnt bowled in tests ( hes only played one and has a first class bowling average of 35). Head covers both sets.
Is there such a thing as a specialist batsman now?

Yeah I reconsidered and agree....Eng's bowlers are better batsmen then Aussie bowlers.
Aussie bowlers are not tailenders and Cummins, Lyon, Starc and I think Pattinson can all hold the bat and get runs too.....but Eng's are a cut above

[Soul Requiem]

Mail

England will leave until Wednesday the decision on whether to go with the proven Ashes pedigree of Broad or include Curran at his expense.

Woakes, Curran and rusty Anderson all 82mph shortish bowlers.

Drop Burns to get Curran in the team. Roy Denly Root Stokes Bairstow Curran Buttler Woakes Ali Broad Anderson

I can see Woakes Curran and Archer playing in the 2nd Test onwards to get runs and Anderson and Broad dropped.

Madness

Five pace bowlers, a bowler with no centuries at all at 6 based on slogging a few runs here and there, Bairstow in the top five when he clearly cannot hack it there.
Woakes and Anderson are also both over six feet so not sure where the shortish bit cam from.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

If they drop Anderson when he's fit they should just give the Aussies the Ashes, cancel the remaining tests and not waste all our time.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Curran can score runs when he’s got freedom to smack it around. Not sure he’s gonna go in and see off fresh bowlers to keep us in the game at five

[Gooseberry]

Depends if leach is at one

[JDizzle]

England team confirmed and is as expected. Anderson, Broad, Woakes and Ali is the attack. I’d have picked Jofra, but there we go.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

England team confirmed and is as expected. Anderson, Broad, Woakes and Ali is the attack. I’d have picked Jofra, but there we go.

Don't think you can play Jofra and Jimmy both coming off muscle injuries, tbf JDizzle. Especially when you have the options England do.

Let Jofra have another week or twos rest to get fully fit and either unleash him at Lords or in the 3rd test.

[alfie]

Sensible selection. No rush to pick Archer...I think he will get a crack at some point in the series but just after recovering from a side strain probably isn't the ideal time. In any case we shouldn't run away with the idea he would automatically demolish Australia : they tend not to be particularly intimidated just by pace. His natural ability means he may still be effective ; but you could say the same of the incumbents - who are all proven Test bowlers in English conditions.

I do think they'd like to pick Curran for his batting. But not , I think , at the expense of a proper batsman. So he will have to wait his chance. Glad to see Jimmy is confirmed as fully fit.

Long time since I've been less sure of what is likely to happen in an Ashes series : really haven't a clue how this one will go. Generally I expect the home team to win unless the tourists are significantly superior. But this time there are just too many players on both sides who are relatively unproven to make any sort of judgement with confidence. Should make for an interesting contest...

[VTR]

I think it's so close this time, whoever wins the first Test goes on to win the series. Now you're going to ask me who will this one, I haven't got a clue!

[Soul Requiem]

England should win at Edgbaston and Australia should win at Lords so the series will come down to a shoot out in the final three matches, can't help but think in English conditions that Anderson and co will run riot.

[JDizzle]

England team confirmed and is as expected. Anderson, Broad, Woakes and Ali is the attack. I’d have picked Jofra, but there we go.

Don't think you can play Jofra and Jimmy both coming off muscle injuries, tbf JDizzle. Especially when you have the options England do.

Let Jofra have another week or twos rest to get fully fit and either unleash him at Lords or in the 3rd test.

Series could well be dead by Test 3 is my only concern! And Woakes is a gun at Lords, so you aren’t leaving him out there. Anderson is still an automatic pick and Broad is bowling well... Tough to leave any of them out. Hence why I’d have played Jofra here and rested him at Lords if needs be. He shouldn’t be bowling long spells anyway - short, sharp bursts.

[Duty281]

This is easily the least enthused I've ever been about an Ashes series. Partly because there's too many of them (this is the fifth in six years); partly because this is going to be a dismal series in terms of batting quality; partly because England are going to get smashed in the series; partly because it's all going to be played out in an ugly, negative atmosphere by both crowd and players.

Oh and Kumar Dharmasena is umpiring the fifth test, but thankfully that's all! And the weather looks miserable for this test.

Glum, glum, glum. But it's still the greatest game in the world.

[king_carlos]

England should win at Edgbaston and Australia should win at Lords so the series will come down to a shoot out in the final three matches, can't help but think in English conditions that Anderson and co will run riot.

Woakes will have something to say about the Lords test on recent form there.

I also wouldn't say that Lords is the best place for Aus. Certainly their seamers will like it, particularly the ones who rely more on seam than swing, but their batsman will struggle just the same as England.

Australia will be reliant on Warner and Smith for batting. Seamers such as Woakes coming from the Pavilion end will enjoy bowling to Warner and swing bowlers traditionally enjoy the Nursery End where Anderson should get joy against Smith. Smith is a wonderful batsman but this series will be a challenge for him as he does get squared up against the swinging ball.

I think England's batting depth and the experience of their seamers in these conditions will see them win a closely fought series.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

To pose Guildford (the Great's, if I had my way) question here: why is Starc's place so under threat?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

To pose Guildford (the Great's, if I had my way) question here: why is Starc's place so under threat?

Because Cummins, Pattinson and Hazlewood are all really really good too.

[guildfordbat]

To pose Guildford (the Great's, if I had my way) question here: why is Starc's place so under threat?

Because Cummins, Pattinson and Hazlewood are all really really good too.

As always a game of opinions but all being ''really really good too'' doesn't mean better.

[Duty281]

To pose Guildford (the Great's, if I had my way) question here: why is Starc's place so under threat?

Because Cummins, Pattinson and Hazlewood are all really really good too.

Yes and I think the Aussies are favouring a policy of rotation in this series. So don't expect any of their seamers to play all five tests, and if Starc doesn't play tomorrow expect him to play at Lord's.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I'd definitely agree that both teams will rotate. The tests are so packed in and it's been a long summer already, you'd be mad not to. And these pitches will need different things

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I'm excited, I think the flaws in both teams will make this an interesting series with potential to do anything

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I'm excited, I think the flaws in both teams will make this an interesting series with potential to do anything

Thanks Bertie

[VTR]

Well whatever happens, England will have achieved two firsts this summer. First World Cup win, and first Test win vs Ireland. Only time will tell which of those achievements is considered the greatest

[JDizzle]

To pose Guildford (the Great's, if I had my way) question here: why is Starc's place so under threat?

Because Cummins, Pattinson and Hazlewood are all really really good too.

As always a game of opinions but all being ''really really good too'' doesn't mean better.

I think the theory is the Aussies recognise this is going to be a low scoring series - and 250, certainly 300, is going to be a good first innings score. And whilst Starc will take wickets (there is no question mark over that), if he has an off day and goes around the park a bit it could be match losing when scores will be so low. Cummins, Hazlewood/Siddle and Pattinson provide more reliability and are not short of a cutting edge themselves!

Just to expand on this, in the 2015 Ashes Starc was the top wicket taker for the Aussies with 18 wickets, and he took two five wicket hauls which was two clear of the rest of the squad combined. However, he averaged 30.50 and went at 3.85 an over. The balancing act they have to get right.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I'm excited, I think the flaws in both teams will make this an interesting series with potential to do anything

Thanks Bertie

Your knowledge of the Bertie is really poor. It's got to add nothing to the conversation and seemingly reply to nothing. You fail me every single day

[king_carlos]

I'd select Starc every time for his swing and left arm angle. He's a wonderful bowler and an attack leader. Cummins is undroppable on form from the last 18 months. That leaves a choice between the control of Hazlewood or the pace of Pattinson as your first change.

[guildfordbat]

I'd definitely agree that both teams will rotate. The tests are so packed in and it's been a long summer already, you'd be mad not to. And these pitches will need different things

Hi Dolph - I certainly understand both teams considering rotation and the reasons behind it.

However, I do wonder if it might necessarily turn out to be so straightforward. Particularly thinking if there's a close result in the first test. Will the victors be prepared to change the make up of a winning side and risk upsetting the balance? Easier for the losing side to rotate and try to find the right mix or the winners to do so if they've slaughtered the opposition and are confident about resting one or two players. Just not so sure that will always be the case.

Where I don't like the concept of rotation though is for the opening test. Going gloriously off topic to try and make my point, Joe Davis was the most dominant player in the history of snooker and arguably any other game. In his words, ''the first frame was always the most important as provided I won that, my opponent then needed to win two in succession to beat me.'' It's that sort of reasoning which could make the result of the first test so important. Start well and your opponent is on the back foot - simples. Assuming all players are fit and niggle free, both sides should be picking their strongest side to win this week's test. For me, that should mean Starc bowling for Australia.

[VTR]

Rotation will be difficult. Just look at England in the World Cup, presumably wanted to rest bowlers but then the massive mess up vs Sri Lanka made that not possible. This will be the same, if Anderson is even half fit England wouldn't dare to rotate him out, even if the workload could ultimately retire him

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I'd definitely agree that both teams will rotate. The tests are so packed in and it's been a long summer already, you'd be mad not to. And these pitches will need different things

Hi Dolph - I certainly understand both teams considering rotation and the reasons behind it.

However, I do wonder if it might necessarily turn out to be so straightforward. Particularly thinking if there's a close result in the first test. Will the victors be prepared to change the make up of a winning side and risk upsetting the balance? Easier for the losing side to rotate and try to find the right mix or the winners to do so if they've slaughtered the opposition and are confident about resting one or two players. Just not so sure that will always be the case.

Where I don't like the concept of rotation though is for the opening test. Going gloriously off topic to try and make my point, Joe Davis was the most dominant player in the history of snooker and arguably any other game. In his words, ''the first frame was always the most important as provided I won that, my opponent then needed to win two in succession to beat me.'' It's that sort of reasoning which could make the result of the first test so important. Start well and your opponent is on the back foot - simples. Assuming all players are fit and niggle free, both sides should be picking their strongest side to win this week's test. For me, that should mean Starc bowling for Australia.

It's certainly not an easy thing to do, but it shouldn't be. Rotation is meant to be smart and should be done without emotion. A "winning side" is always talked up wildly, but if Broad and Woakes are considered to be less effective on a surface than Archer, one of em needs to go. It's not as much about resting, for me, it's about understanding both the fitness and the best combination for any given test. If it's a tight series, it could be won by the team who gets the 10% extra and that might come from a team whose players drop with lethargy.

Broad and Woakes will have to do something absolutely spectacular not to be swapped out at one point.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

"When David Warner said he saw fear in the eyes of England’s No 3, Jonathan Trott, at the Gabba six years ago this was more than simply Poopie. It was cultural Poopie, something buried in the deep Australian sporting soul, the voice not only of one crowing Australian, but of those that crowed before him, the noble dead, stretching right back through these generational collisions."

Barney Ronay writes some great stuff and this works so well.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Paine got a little rattled at the press conference today it seems, and then thought he was quoting Churchill when he was actually quoting David Icke.

That’s some good stuff

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Oh that is something special

[alfie]

This is easily the least enthused I've ever been about an Ashes series. Partly because there's too many of them (this is the fifth in six years); partly because this is going to be a dismal series in terms of batting quality; partly because England are going to get smashed in the series; partly because it's all going to be played out in an ugly, negative atmosphere by both crowd and players.

Oh and Kumar Dharmasena is umpiring the fifth test, but thankfully that's all! And the weather looks miserable for this test.

Glum, glum, glum. But it's still the greatest game in the world.

Who has hacked Duty's account ? What are we going to do for unbridled optimism ?

[KP_fan]

So Eng's bowling attack comprises  of 3 seamers and 2 battng allrounders

I think they should have played Leach.......but i also sense that they do not have confidence in their top-order so they have packed one batsman too many

[Soul Requiem]

The attack has had the same make up for years.

[Gooseberry]

So Eng's bowling attack comprises  of 3 seamers and 2 battng allrounders

I think they should have played Leach.......but i also sense that they do not have confidence in their top-order so they have packed one batsman too many

Its difficult to square that with Moeen. 

Hes the leading wicket taker in world cricket in the past 2 years, despite having been dropped for a while. His home record in particular is pretty ridiculous, especially given that most games have been seam dominated. even when picked as a second spinner its been him that was taking the wickets. So on paper Leach is the better bowler, and did pretty well when given a chance, the reality of what moeen produces doesnt match up to the notion that leach is the better bowler. The Ireland game backs that up too, albeit in in a very limited way. It certainly showed that Root trusts Moeen more (as surprising as that might be). 

Which also dovetails to the second point, his batting. In theory he is a batsman who can bowl a bit. In reality his batting in all formats has been awful for a sustained period now, and frankly he should be at 9 in this side. he is in no way a batsman first and a bowler second. Again taking that ireland game Leach would be the batting allrounder (he isnt).

if they were purely picking bowlers based on batting why isnt Curan in there as well? Its just not the case. What they have done is picked a balanced side with a good range of bowling options. The real questions should come in the lack of a left armer or a quick in the seamers and its one Bayliss mentioned in the press conference. They felt this combination is best placed to take wickets in these conditions. 4 front line seamers, a front line spinner and two part time spinners. Its a lot of options.

Australia have taken the opposite tack. Just 4 bowlers and only very part time back up in the batsmen. So who is it that doesn't trust their batsmen? Australia have left their two allrounders on the bench and picked 6 pure batsmen and a batting keeper. Given their 8-10 can also bat a bit is it not them thats stacking the depth? Equally it could show that they trust their bowlers more than England do. 
When you have a mid order with the likes of Wade who's been dropped multiple times for not being god enough with the bat is that a surprise? 

Or that for both sides its a recognition of the players relative abilities. Neither Marsh nor Lambuschange justify a place in the side on ability. 


Cloud this morning is clearing up but its still grey and a little humid. there was a lot of heavy rain yesterday so I assume the pitch has been under covers and might have sweated a bit. Might be one of those tricky choices on the toss, and certainly nervous for whichever dodgy bating line up goes out first.

[Sponsored content]