England's Winter

by **LondonTiger** Mon 16 Sep 2019, 2:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

New Zealand

T20 Internationals

Friday November 1st - Christchurch
Sunday November 3rd - Wellington
Tuesday November 5th - Nelson
Friday November 8th - Napier
Sunday November 10th - Auckland

Squad
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex) captain
Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire)
Tom Banton (Somerset)
Sam Billings (Kent)
Pat Brown (Worcestershire)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Tom Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Lewis Gregory (Somerset)
Chris Jordan (Sussex)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Dawid Malan (Middlesex)
Matt Parkinson (Lancashire)
Adil Rashid (Yorkshire)
James Vince (Hampshire)

Tests

Wednesday November 20th - Tauranga
Thursday November 28th - Hamilton

Squad
Joe Root (Yorkshire) captain
Jofra Archer (Sussex)
Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire)
Rory Burns (Surrey)
Jos Buttler (Lancashire)
Zak Crawley (Kent)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Jack Leach (Somerset)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Matthew Parkinson (Lancashire)
Ollie Pope (Surrey)
Dominic Sibley (Warwickshire)
Ben Stokes (Durham)
Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)

South Africa

Tests

Thursday 26th December - Centurion
Friday January 3rd - Cape Town
Thursday January 16th - Port Elizabeth
Friday January 24th - Johannesburg

Squad
TBC

ODI
Tuesday 4th February - Cape Town
Friday 7th February - Durban
Sunday 9th February - Johannesburg

Squad
TBC

T20 Internationals

Wednesday 12th February - East London
Friday 14th February - Durban
Sunday 16th February - Centurion

Sri Lanka

March 7th - Warm up 1, Katunayake (3 day)
March 12th - Warm up 2, Colombo (3 day)
March 19th - 1st Test, Galle
March 27th - 2nd Test, Colombo

by Gooseberry Fri 20 Sep 2019, 11:38 am

Does Denly white ball only signal they will continue with Root at 3? Frankly Im surprised he'd get that given he was ditched from the World Cup squad. Muddled thinking?
Archer only getting an incremental contract juts seems odd.

Wood gets a contract but Tom Curran doesnt.

No Plunkett, tallies with the conversation the other day around him having maybe reached his limit with the 50 over world cup. Age has been catching up on him.

Root apparently is Englands only test spinner now.

by Soul Requiem Fri 20 Sep 2019, 12:19 pm

Goose

Archer has a central contract while Mark Wood was vital to the world cup win with Curran very much on the periphery.

by guildfordbat Fri 20 Sep 2019, 3:28 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Denly getting a white ball only contract is real weird to me. Do they see him as a ODI/T20 player only going forward?

Looks like Moeen has gone firmly behind Leach (who with Tom Curran, have been awarded incremental contracts).

Does seem to indicate the end of Plunkett/Willey's white ball hopes for the moment

Absolutely. It reeks of him being a bit too old for an incremental contract and them not being convinced he's up to the job at Test level but feeling obliged to give him something however inappropriate.

by alfie Sat 21 Sep 2019, 10:27 pm

Not a lot of shocks there , really. Archer and Burns getting red ball contacts was a given. The spinners can't complain all round. Perhaps Denly as w/ ball only is a little odd but I guess they don't see him as nailed on in Tests but wanted to keep him rewarded.
Feel some sympathy for Plunkett. I can see why they don't see him as a regular going forward : but it does seem a little un-generous to dump him so promptly after his very important part in England's World Cup win. Suppose there wasn't really an option - no room for sentiment in sport , eh ? But maybe an incremental contract like Leach and Tom Curran might have been appropriate - almost as a "thank you " ?
Will be interesting to see the squads for NZ...

by Gooseberry Sun 22 Sep 2019, 9:07 pm

With Denly I kinda feel ye has a better track record as a white ball cricketer and more hope of being genuinely useful in those formats ...but currently the test squad needs him a lot more.
It feels really odd that he was chucked out the world cup squad and told to play county cricket to keep his test sport, replaced by Dawson who didn't get a game and hasn't got a limited overs contract, and has actually done OK in tests over the summer to the point where folk feel he deserves a spot for the first time.
It really feels very much like a lot of disjointed thinking and differences of opinion at the various selection and leadership levels. That's beena hallmark of the Byaliss era

by **LondonTiger** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 9:18 am

Reading Michael Atherton over the weekend, he is surmising that it is more a question of finances with Denly:

It is time to scrap separate red and white-ball contracts

Cricket has its Trevor Francis moment. Readers would have to be of a certain age to appreciate the analogy, but when Francis became football’s first “million-pound player” in 1979, transferred as he was from Birmingham City to Nottingham Forrest for that sum, it felt like the landscape had changed. So it is with cricket and the contract list announced yesterday for the 2020 season.

For the first time, a small number of elite England cricketers will earn a million pounds or more from their employer alone. This figure would have been surpassed some time ago for certain players, given win bonuses, off-field endorsements and franchised opportunities, but for those players on top-rank red-ball and white-ball contracts next year, salary and appearance fees alone will take them beyond this mark.

It has taken English cricket almost two decades to get there, and reflects the remarkable wage inflation that has come on the back of satellite television money. The first central contracts offered in 2000 were worth £60,000 to senior players. Now, a top-level Test contract is worth more than ten times that (£650,000), while a top level one-day contract is worth £275,000 with appearance fees paid on top, thus taking the salary into seven figures for the first time.

When announcing the list of contracted players yesterday, players’ rankings, which are based on batting and bowling performances mainly but also other factors such as fielding, fitness and the more nebulous “off-field” contribution (a bonus for good character, essentially), were not divulged. Nevertheless, it is certain that Joe Root and Ben Stokes would be top-ranked in the red ball and white ball contract list, while Jofra Archer, Jos Buttler, Jonny Bairstow and Chris Woakes are the others who have been contracted across formats and are therefore the highest earners.

Arguing whether these figures are justified for cricketers, rather like the awarding of honours for sportsmen, is rather pointless. The latter reflects a warped view of the world, the former is simply a consequence of market forces. The television tide has floated many boats — the numbers and salaries of functionaries at the ECB and the swelling of peripheral figures in the team’s backroom staff are telling — and, with that in mind, it is right that the elite players have been chief beneficiaries. It is, after all, the players’ game.

For ambitious young cricketers, the profession is clearly more financially attractive than before. Until a generation ago, nobody really took up the game with an eye on the bottom line, but cricket now should be able to compete in the war for talent with all sports bar football. And given the relative lack of competition to get to the top compared with football, cricket becomes a very attractive opportunity for a young sportsman. How far that impacts upon young players’ choices about university and parents’ obsessions, which have reached manic proportions in football academies, remains to be seen.

Given the figures on offer, and the discrepancy between the haves and the have-nots, Ashley Giles, the director of cricket, has an onerous responsibility. He is allowed to offer 22 contracts across formats, and yesterday he announced 12 one-day contracts and ten Test contracts, which reflects not the shifting priorities of the ECB — Giles has, in fact, reiterated a commitment to refocus on the longer format of the game — but, rather, that the one-day team are more established and settled than the Test match counterpart. Given a tricky choice between the two, the sums may dictate his choice, too.

In any list, there are bound to be winners and losers. The losers include World Cup-winner Liam Plunkett, from whom England will clearly move on and who is nowhere to be seen; David Willey, for whom the last few months have not been kind after he was overlooked for the World Cup in favour of Archer; Alex Hales, who remains available for selection but sits in non-contracted no-man’s land after his failed drugs test; Adil Rashid, who, not surprisingly, loses his Test contract, as does Moeen Ali; and Jack Leach, who receives an incremental contract only (essentially a smaller retainer.)

Ali’s case is an interesting one given that Giles indicated he had asked to step away from Test cricket for a short time. It appears Ali has had his fill of Test cricket for now, but that Giles has persuaded him to hold off from stepping away from it permanently, given the shortage of decent spinners in the county game. England tour Sri Lanka in March, where they won last time by utilising three spinners, and Giles hopes that a short break will fire Ali’s enthusiasm again.

The winners? Archer, clearly. Rory Burns gets his first contract after a productive Ashes, while Sam Curran gets a Test contract despite playing just four Tests this calendar year, with little success. In his case, it reflects what’s coming and hoped for, rather than the year just gone in which he has averaged less than 20 with the bat, and more than 36 with the ball.

The curious case of Joe Denly illustrates the flaws in the system and the arbitrary distinction between Test and one-day contracts. Denly found himself dropped from the World Cup squad on the eve of the tournament and played no part in it. During this calendar year, he played in every Test bar one and has played the last eight consecutive Tests. Despite this, he has been given a one-day contract and not a Test contract.

Come November, when Denly and Burns walk out to open the batting in the first Test against New Zealand, Denly will do so in all probability a lesser paid player, despite the fact he is likely to play more cricket for England, across formats, than Burns. Would it not be better to get rid of these arbitrary distinctions in contract negotiations, and simply let Giles contract 22 players with the budget at his disposal — an England squad for the year, effectively — based on their relative experience, quality and likely usefulness? That would allow him complete flexibility to organise a squad of cricketers as he, and the selectors, see fit.

by Soul Requiem Mon 23 Sep 2019, 9:21 am

More nonsense from Atherton.

by Gooseberry Mon 23 Sep 2019, 10:36 am

Which bits nonsense? It makes a lot of sense.

I'd say that they should be using a greater portion of this budget to reward test specialists and encourage players to not just focus on white ball cricket. The non international game has great financial rewards for limited overs players, but very little for the likes of Burns who is never going to be an IPL star.

Interesting that Atherton who you'd assume does have the inside scoop is clear that it was as much Moeens choice to step away from tests as anyone elses. Leach only getting an incremental despite his success maybe does signal that the leadership for whatever reason do still see him as their first choice down the road if they can get Mo hungry and switched on again. Id agree for a two three spinner tour like SL but how many more chances does he get as a test regular? Hes had his moments with bat and ball no question but failed more often and to me sums up the mental issues that have dogged England.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 2:50 pm

England IT20 squad:

Eoin Morgan (Middlesex) captain

Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire)

Tom Banton (Somerset)

Sam Billings (Kent)

Pat Brown (Worcestershire)

Sam Curran (Surrey)

Tom Curran (Surrey)

Joe Denly (Kent)

Lewis Gregory (Somerset)

Chris Jordan (Sussex)

Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)

Dawid Malan (Middlesex)

Matt Parkinson (Lancashire)

Adil Rashid (Yorkshire)

England Test squad:

Joe Root (Yorkshire) captain

Jofra Archer (Sussex)

Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire)

Rory Burns (Surrey)

Jos Buttler (Lancashire)

Zak Crawley (Kent)

Sam Curran (Surrey)

Joe Denly (Kent)

Jack Leach (Somerset)

Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)

Matthew Parkinson (Lancashire)

Ollie Pope (Surrey)

Dominic Sibley (Warwickshire)

Ben Stokes (Durham)

Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 2:51 pm

Headline clearly is Bairstow has been dropped from the test side - and rightly so in my opinion. Some more new names than expected, with Crawley, Mahmood and Parkinson called up likely as cover, seems Sibley and Pope will get a shot.

T20 squad - good to see Pat Brown in there, looks more experimental with some guys like Archer/Buttler rested

by **LondonTiger** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 2:56 pm

Roy disappears completely.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 2:59 pm

T20 lineup largely experimental. Bairstow included to sooth the ego?

My test lineup:

Burns
Sibley
Denley
Root
Stokes
Pope
Buttler
Curran
Archer
Leach
Broad

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:00 pm

Test XI is probably looking like this;

Burns
Sibley
Denly/Crawley
Root
Pope
Stokes
Buttler (wk)
Woakes/Curran
Archer
Leach
Broad

Parkinson/Mahmood very much on the outside looking in, in terms of the squad. Choices of Woakes/Curran based off conditions, and probably whoever is in best nick from Denly/Crawley.

by JDizzle Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:01 pm

Some interesting selections and some bizarre selections!

Crawley has been discussed at length, but think it is too soon. Parkinson seems a bizarre selection in Tests - would think he bowled far too slowly and you can count one one hand the number of leg spinners who have sustained success in Tests since Warne, it is really, really hard. Like Saqib though, it would have been easy to go with the standard English seamer in COverton, Ollie Robinson, Porter etc. but Mahmood has genuine pace and can move it. Exciting.

Like the T20 squad though (although no Roy?). Gregory smashes it, Banton looks the real deal, Parkinson has elite T20 numbers and Pat Brown's variations are superb.

by Soul Requiem Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:07 pm

Delighted to see Bairstow dropped from the test team, it'll be tarted up as being rested in the media I'm sure.

I'd assume the line up posted by LT is pretty much spot on, it tends to swing a bit in NZ at this time of year so should suit Curran and Stokes a fair bit, having a top three who in theory face a moving ball week in week out is also a plus. Pope doing Pope things again today I see.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:10 pm

JDizzle wrote:Some interesting selections and some bizarre selections!

Crawley has been discussed at length, but think it is too soon. Parkinson seems a bizarre selection in Tests - would think he bowled far too slowly and you can count one one hand the number of leg spinners who have sustained success in Tests since Warne, it is really, really hard. Like Saqib though, it would have been easy to go with the standard English seamer in COverton, Ollie Robinson, Porter etc. but Mahmood has genuine pace and can move it. Exciting.

Like the T20 squad though (although no Roy?). Gregory smashes it, Banton looks the real deal, Parkinson has elite T20 numbers and Pat Brown's variations are superb.

Parkinson does average 25 in the first class stuff, so not too bad for a 22 year old leggie on paper. Albeit, the likelihood of him getting a game in the tests is like 5%, basically needs a Leach injury. Will be good experience for him, and imagine if he actually is good - the option to have a leggie! Agree on Mahmood - albeit again, very unlikely to get an actual game.

Weird about Roy - rested maybe? Is he off to some of the T20 leagues? Good opportunity for Banton in his absence anyways!

by JDizzle Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:12 pm

Parkinson does turn it big to be fair to him - but Test quality leg spinners are just so, so rare. Don’t want another Borthwick/Crane on our hands! Although I do wonder whether this means the three spinners in SL (looking a few months ahead) will be Leach, Mo and Parkinson?

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:15 pm

JDizzle wrote:Parkinson does turn it big to be fair to him - but Test quality leg spinners are just so, so rare. Don’t want another Borthwick/Crane on our hands! Although I do wonder whether this means the three spinners in SL (looking a few months ahead) will be Leach, Mo and Parkinson?

Yeah good point re: SL tour - the other options would really be Virdi or Bess, neither of which have really excelled this summer, presuming they've dispensed of Rashid in tests. Anyone else? None come to mind for me...

Moeen confirmed as rested from the T20 squad - he did mention at finals day he is looking to take some time off post county season, imagine as you say we might see him in Sri Lanka end of the winter.

by Gooseberry Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:16 pm

Is this for the whole winter or just NZ?

That will tell you if folk are rested or dropped.

Any changes now should be seen as short term anyway, the new coach will be a selector too and may have very different opinions. the next group of selections could be very different, but this is a great opportunity for players to press a case.

Sending 4 openers (albeit Denly largely plays 3 now) is a bit of a thing. Hands up I still dont see Denly as good enough long term to be a test player but if Crawley ends up carrying drinks and playing warm ups against sub county standard bowlers its a waste of time including him.

by Gooseberry Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:19 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
JDizzle wrote:Parkinson does turn it big to be fair to him - but Test quality leg spinners are just so, so rare. Don’t want another Borthwick/Crane on our hands! Although I do wonder whether this means the three spinners in SL (looking a few months ahead) will be Leach, Mo and Parkinson?

Yeah good point re: SL tour - the other options would really be Virdi or Bess, neither of which have really excelled this summer, presuming they've dispensed of Rashid in tests. Anyone else? None come to mind for me...

Moeen confirmed as rested from the T20 squad - he did mention at finals day he is looking to take some time off post county season, imagine as you say we might see him in Sri Lanka end of the winter.

That fits what Atherton was saying, they want him back for SL in tests but whether he will feel confident for it is another matter.

Looking past Rashid for a leggie (in tests) makes sense too. He hast played a red ball game since January.

by JDizzle Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:21 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
JDizzle wrote:Parkinson does turn it big to be fair to him - but Test quality leg spinners are just so, so rare. Don’t want another Borthwick/Crane on our hands! Although I do wonder whether this means the three spinners in SL (looking a few months ahead) will be Leach, Mo and Parkinson?

Yeah good point re: SL tour - the other options would really be Virdi or Bess, neither of which have really excelled this summer, presuming they've dispensed of Rashid in tests. Anyone else? None come to mind for me...

Moeen confirmed as rested from the T20 squad - he did mention at finals day he is looking to take some time off post county season, imagine as you say we might see him in Sri Lanka end of the winter.

Parkinson is the ‘like for like’ replacement for Rashid - keeps them with the offie, leggie and left armer which obviously Bess or Virdi don’t. Wonder if Rashid’s shoulder is just too buggered for red ball stuff now.

by VTR Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:26 pm

What has happened to Mason Crane? The guy was highly rated barely two years ago and now seems to have disappeared into oblivion.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:29 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Is this for the whole winter or just NZ?

Just NZ.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:29 pm

Delighted by those.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:31 pm

JDizzle wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
JDizzle wrote:Parkinson does turn it big to be fair to him - but Test quality leg spinners are just so, so rare. Don’t want another Borthwick/Crane on our hands! Although I do wonder whether this means the three spinners in SL (looking a few months ahead) will be Leach, Mo and Parkinson?

Yeah good point re: SL tour - the other options would really be Virdi or Bess, neither of which have really excelled this summer, presuming they've dispensed of Rashid in tests. Anyone else? None come to mind for me...

Moeen confirmed as rested from the T20 squad - he did mention at finals day he is looking to take some time off post county season, imagine as you say we might see him in Sri Lanka end of the winter.

Parkinson is the ‘like for like’ replacement for Rashid - keeps them with the offie, leggie and left armer which obviously Bess or Virdi don’t. Wonder if Rashid’s shoulder is just too buggered for red ball stuff now.

Who is the off-spinner? Root?

by Soul Requiem Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:35 pm

Isn't Denly a leg spinner anyway?

by JDizzle Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:36 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
JDizzle wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
JDizzle wrote:Parkinson does turn it big to be fair to him - but Test quality leg spinners are just so, so rare. Don’t want another Borthwick/Crane on our hands! Although I do wonder whether this means the three spinners in SL (looking a few months ahead) will be Leach, Mo and Parkinson?

Yeah good point re: SL tour - the other options would really be Virdi or Bess, neither of which have really excelled this summer, presuming they've dispensed of Rashid in tests. Anyone else? None come to mind for me...

Moeen confirmed as rested from the T20 squad - he did mention at finals day he is looking to take some time off post county season, imagine as you say we might see him in Sri Lanka end of the winter.

Parkinson is the ‘like for like’ replacement for Rashid - keeps them with the offie, leggie and left armer which obviously Bess or Virdi don’t. Wonder if Rashid’s shoulder is just too buggered for red ball stuff now.

Who is the off-spinner? Root?

I think they counting on persuading Moeen to play in SL. Still a few months away. If he does pull the plug on his Test career, not sure who they look too - Virdi or Bess I guess.

by JDizzle Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:38 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Isn't Denly a leg spinner anyway?

Yeah, but I am just getting ahead of myself and talking the SL tour. They saw Denly bowl only a couple of overs in a warm up game in SL last year and decided he wasn’t up to it. No way he can replace Rashid’s output from that series.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:50 pm

VTR wrote:What has happened to Mason Crane? The guy was highly rated barely two years ago and now seems to have disappeared into oblivion.

I'm sure Jimbo H will fill us in with the details, but I believe he has suffered two stress fractures of the back in the past year and a bit, and hasn't really found himself after that yet. Still young of course, but those are not easy injuries to come back from

by **LondonTiger** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 4:00 pm

JDizzle wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
JDizzle wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
JDizzle wrote:Parkinson does turn it big to be fair to him - but Test quality leg spinners are just so, so rare. Don’t want another Borthwick/Crane on our hands! Although I do wonder whether this means the three spinners in SL (looking a few months ahead) will be Leach, Mo and Parkinson?

Yeah good point re: SL tour - the other options would really be Virdi or Bess, neither of which have really excelled this summer, presuming they've dispensed of Rashid in tests. Anyone else? None come to mind for me...

Moeen confirmed as rested from the T20 squad - he did mention at finals day he is looking to take some time off post county season, imagine as you say we might see him in Sri Lanka end of the winter.

Parkinson is the ‘like for like’ replacement for Rashid - keeps them with the offie, leggie and left armer which obviously Bess or Virdi don’t. Wonder if Rashid’s shoulder is just too buggered for red ball stuff now.

Who is the off-spinner? Root?

I think they counting on persuading Moeen to play in SL. Still a few months away. If he does pull the plug on his Test career, not sure who they look too - Virdi or Bess I guess.

Ah sorry, had not realised you were looking that far ahead.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 4:07 pm

JDizzle wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Isn't Denly a leg spinner anyway?

Yeah, but I am just getting ahead of myself and talking the SL tour. They saw Denly bowl only a couple of overs in a warm up game in SL last year and decided he wasn’t up to it. No way he can replace Rashid’s output from that series.

While he was very much the 3rd spinner in SL, his 12 wickets was a better return than all but one of the Sri Lankans. There is no way Denly can take up that slack.

by VTR Mon 23 Sep 2019, 4:13 pm

Cheers Olly, injuries makes sense then, as he isn't a player you hear much about anymore. His debut was poor, but then so was nearly everyone on that tour

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon 23 Sep 2019, 4:15 pm

Ed Smith confirms Root will be moving back to 4 in the order.

Finally some common sense - ridiculous that they moved him to 3 in the first place.

by Gooseberry Mon 23 Sep 2019, 6:26 pm

In fairness theres unwritten law that days you have to have 3 spinners and one of them be a leggie to play a test in sri lanka. Denly could fill in as an option behind the left right combo of mo and leach, especially if Stokes were injured or whatever.
But it's also pretty clear from the contracts and the selection of 3 other openers that they dont really think Denlys up to much long term in any capacity but has done enough to warrant keeping on the fringes of everything.
Its certainly a squad with an eye to the future which Rashid isn't. His test record is poor, hes not young and has retired from the format two years ago. Still no sign hes interested in a first class contract.

No need for conspiracy theories about his shoulder. If you have a young spinner tearing up county cricket they deserve the same chances he got after 3 seasons as one of the top performing county players to carry drinks and watch everyone else play tests then get told he has an attitude problem.

by JDizzle Mon 23 Sep 2019, 7:36 pm

Just a note on the interview with Ed Smith that was on Sky earlier - he did specifically say that Bairstow had been dropped (no fudging about resting him) and he did make clear that Roy was being rested from the T20 squad.

by Gooseberry Mon 23 Sep 2019, 7:55 pm

JDizzle wrote:Parkinson does turn it big to be fair to him - but Test quality leg spinners are just so, so rare. Don’t want another Borthwick on our hands!

I mean its good to aim high bit I wouldnt be too upset to have a guy who could open the batting in a pinch and has a test bowling average of 20

(Well OK he only played one test)

by VTR Mon 23 Sep 2019, 8:47 pm

It's strange that it's taken England longer to forget about finding the next Shane Warne than Australia. Give the guy a chance and all that, but I expect Parkinson would be more Salisbury-like in Tests, and he won't get much chance to develop in the CC either, when players like Darren Stevens will still be able to trundle in during April and September and average 20. Could be a potential limited overs replacement for Rashid though, and maybe that's what they are ultimately looking at.

by Gooseberry Mon 23 Sep 2019, 9:02 pm

On fairness england haven't been looking at leg spinners as the "first choice" test regular but as a specialist option for either dead flat pitches where you need to make something happen ( and england refuse to pick "mystery" chuckers) or as part of a three spinner for lottery stand boxes like sri lanka.
It didn't work with Crane in Aus but it did work well enough fmwitb Rashid in Sri Lanka. They haven't yet tried it on the drop in UAE pitches where they have historically suffered when picking medium Pacers and finger spinners.
Theyve also got some genuine pace for the first time in a long time not just with Archer but apparently Mahmood isn't far off him from what people say.
Their winter record has been pretty awful in recent years and the bowling selections seem to finally be aimed at recognising why. The regular attack should be ok in NZ and SA ( they did win last time thanks partly to Moeen and SA being incapable of playing any spinner on any surface) but this is about the longer term.
The need for genuine pace in much of the world with a kookaburs was recognised before the last Aus tour and underlined by it. Sandpaper helps too obviously but England were toothless without a Finn. Archer and Mahmood might just be able to dish it back a bit to Pattinson and co.
It's a hope anyway.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Tue 24 Sep 2019, 4:09 am

I presume Stone isn’t fit?

by guildfordbat Tue 24 Sep 2019, 8:05 am

Whilst goose might say the Notts bowlers at the Oval yesterday were more like tins of custard than a Test attack, Ollie Pope still impressed and looks ready to step up.

by Gooseberry Tue 24 Sep 2019, 8:45 am

I have no problem with Pope being in the mix for tests at all. Whether or not hes a long term trifle layer remains to be seen.

If the statement by Smith that Bairstow was dropped rather than rested form the test squad is correct then that shows again just how much of a disconnect there is between the various levels in the ECB. Dropping someone from a squad (not just a matchday XI) just after they are awarded a central test contract smacks of mixed thinking.

Or possibly it ties back to the Atherton piece. They dont want to take bread off Bairstows table but do want him to focus on being a T20 world cup winner. Obviously its doesnt stop him being recalled at some point but theres a number of players in the test squad who have no contract at all.

It just feels like muddled thinking as with the flip flopping on Denly/Dawson. Denly gets dropped from the ODI squad for Dawson. Hasnt played any white ball cricket since. Then gets a white ball central contract, and Dawson whos been playing in both domestic white ball contests and went to the world cup gets nothing. Denly is named in the test squad but has no contract for it. The complete opposite of Bairstow (who again hasn't played white ball since the world cup)

Fundamentally I dont have a great issue with the players in the squads but its a very mixed bunch of messages and thinking being sent out by England and some big decisions made that could be flipped over under a new coach. Its a big shame they havent been able to schedule things is such a way they could get some input from that coach into the contracts and squads selection process. Its quite possible that the players and general make up of the squad wont fit with the direction they want to go. The latest talk is that Silverwood and Thorpe are due to be interviewed for the post and they are both insiders, so hopefully that will provide some continuity and not too much of a second clearing of the decks after this series. On the negative side Im not sure being Englands batting coach is a very good thing to have on your CV or that either really has the depth of experience as coaches I wouldve expected them to be chasing. It does seem theres very much a shift back to keeping it in house and to ex England players after nearly two decades of mostly foreign coaches do things like win both world cups and multiple Ashes for England. Less of that please lets get back to playing tests like county games.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Tue 24 Sep 2019, 9:07 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I presume Stone isn’t fit?

Yep. Him and Wood both still injured, in terms of the pure pace bowlers.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Tue 24 Sep 2019, 9:11 am

Presume both are ahead of Mahmood, but love that they're having a real look. Must assume any last trust in Wood as a serious test player (for more than the odd game anyway) is gone

by Gooseberry Tue 24 Sep 2019, 9:55 am

That we have two quicks injured yet are sending two on tour and leaving two (Curran and Garton) at home shows quite a change in resources for England. Whilst Archer didnt come through the fast bowler programme has paid dividends. Long term investment for long term results.
Its a shame they dont have something similar for test batsmen.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 24 Sep 2019, 11:12 am

Gooseberry wrote:That we have two quicks injured yet are sending two on tour and leaving two (Curran and Garton) at home shows quite a change in resources for England. Whilst Archer didnt come through the fast bowler programme has paid dividends. Long term investment for long term results.
Its a shame they dont have something similar for test batsmen.

I would quite like them to be sending young batters with the potential to make an impact in the longer form overseas in the winter to develop their game, with all costs covered by the ECB. I know plenty of players do it of their own back (or their counties) but it needs to be organised.

by JDizzle Tue 24 Sep 2019, 11:17 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Presume both are ahead of Mahmood, but love that they're having a real look. Must assume any last trust in Wood as a serious test player (for more than the odd game anyway) is gone

I remember when Finn was a late call up to Bangladesh and was immediately thrown in as he was so impressive in the nets. If Mahmood makes an impression, might not be long till he leapfrogs them in the pecking order.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Tue 24 Sep 2019, 11:59 am

Would be good.

Wonder if we’ll encourage any to go play Sheffield Shield games? Did wonders for some aussies playing here

by Gooseberry Tue 24 Sep 2019, 2:40 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Would be good.

Wonder if we’ll encourage any to go play Sheffield Shield games? Did wonders for some aussies playing here

There might be a slight exaggeration of how much they got out of county cricket.

Labuschange played 10 games in D2 and did very well in the tests
Bancrfot played 9 and also did very well then averaged 11 in the Ashes.
Carey played one and didnt make the test squad.
Renshaw played 3 in D1 and average 20 something. Didnt get in the test squad.
Finch played one innings after the Ashes (which he didnt play in).
Siddle played 8 games and averages 32 with the bat in D1 which again possibly says more about the quality of CC than anything else, cant say it massively impacted on the Ashes outcome in terms of Austrlias batting anyway. Pattinson played 3 games.

Certainly getting proper warm up games before and during the Ashes might have helped them but its a bit of a myth that lots were playing lots of county cricket and suddenly had the secret to winning here. Siddle and Pattinson are hardly short of experience in England and wouldve been using the wrong balls.

That aside I dont disagree that time in Shield or other first class competitions woudl do test specialists some good. Its certainly a thing that used to happen, not always in an organised way. Im not sure whats happened to the performance programme etc, they used to take players to these countries over the winter and get some focused coaching alongside learning the conditions for young players.

Its certainly that kind of thing along with the foreign travels Id like to see. maybe its hard to do quite the same amount of hard science that you get in the fast bowler stuff at Loughborough, but still 3D modelling and hardcore number crunching of stats has a role to play in helping young players on technique and shot selection.

That we have 4 openers in the test squad is good. But realistically only two genuinely deserve their spots, ones 29 and just starting to establish himself as a test player the other yet to be capped. Denly still feels like a makeweight (as his contract suggests) and I'm in the too early for Crawley to play so whys he there camp. Who is he going to be learning off on that tour?

by VTR Tue 24 Sep 2019, 4:20 pm

Didn't Siddle play the Jack Leach role in the first Test, which was hugely important in that match? Whether that had much to do with CC experience we will never know, but he was fairly untroubled for a long period.

by VTR Tue 24 Sep 2019, 4:24 pm

Either way, I read somewhere during The Ashes, which I agreed with, is that with the ECB funding the counties, why the hell are they allowed to help the Aussies practice in English conditions ahead of The Ashes. I don't think it would ever work in reverse, make home advantage count.

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