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Scotland v Samoa - Monday 30th September 11:15 KO (BST)

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 4:31 pm

So to stop myself contemplating who could be a good replacement for Toonie, I've decided to start a match thread.

Scotland
Scotland v Samoa - Monday 30th September 11:15 KO (BST) Image10

Samoa
Scotland v Samoa - Monday 30th September 11:15 KO (BST) Romanc10

Previous 4 meetings
2012 (Apia)
Sam 16-17 Sco
2013 (Durban)
Sam 27-17 Sco
2015 (RWC)
Sam 33-36 Sco
2017 (Murrayfield)
Sco 44-38 Sam
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Post by NeilyBroon on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 4:42 pm

We can't let this be another game we just leak tries. We need discipline and clinical finishing. What worries me is in our recent record we've only just squeaked past every time so we're due a loss. With that in mind I'd have Laidlaw in the 23 at least though he's not been much use as a closer recently.

We need to go for finishers. I'd drop seymour from the squad as he had a woeful game, start harris in the centres and put horne jr deserves a chance to show us what he's made of.

With that in mind and the injury to watson I'd go with:

Dell
McInally
Nel
Gilcho
Cummings
Bradbury
Thomson
Ritchie

Horne Jr
Russell

Maitland
Johnson
Harris
Graham
Hogg

Subs
Brown
Reid
Fagerson or berghan both haven't been great lately
Toolis
Barclay
Laidlaw
Horne Sr
Taylor

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Post by BigGee on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 5:30 pm

Johnny Gray was pretty poor today, but i suppose we should not forget he has hardly played yet and may be struggling for match fitness. I would bench him this time and expect an improvement when he comes on.

If Pricw is going to leapfrog Laidlaw then he needs a start as well , put Horne jnr on the bench and let him stake his claim.

Otherwise i am pretty ok with that team. Harris has earbed a start though i would not be to upset to let Taylor have another run, he is a class player snd will surely improve with more gametime.

On the bench, Barclay or Wilson, take your pick, i sm not massively fussed either way.

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 5:38 pm

Aye i thought about benching gray but i don't think we see the best of him as an impact sub. In fact he doesn't tend to make a huge impact off the bench at all. Hence why I'd go with toolis in place of cummings as he greater fits that mould. All the more shame that skinner got injured when he did and gray sr had his injury problems and a baby.

Fair. I'd take price. We've got to also remember Horne in the argentina game. If he can do that against Argentina i think he'd be more than capable of starting against Samoa. Worst case, bring price on. But we've proved today the experience card means very little if you cant score.
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Post by tigertattie on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 5:48 pm

I was supposed to skive the morning and watch this. On current showing though I’d actually rather go to work.

It’ll be just like Scotland though for this to be their one good game where we hump Samoa by 50 points.

But then again .....................
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Post by NeilyBroon on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 5:51 pm

Its my day off on monday but i think I'll use the time to paint the rest of the living room.

In all seriousness we can't be much worse than today but I do find myself saying that an awful lot when it comes to Scotland and being proven wrong fairly consistently.

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Post by BigGee on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 7:45 pm

There is usually a pattern with Scotland where we need a sh1t performance to allow us to reset and play the way we csn.

This pattern is stopping us being taken seriously as a rugby nation snd is something we need to end.

Someone hss to carry the can for todays debacle. We are no longer in the position where we can't make some changes to the tesm if they play as badly as that!

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 8:06 pm

I don't think anyone will get sacked unfortunately. Unless Samoa or Japan beat us, which will still be an upset, the coaches will live to see another day and our decline will continue.

The selection and strategy were way way off today. The basic skills and patience in attack were way way off today. The fact that we went in at half time a dejected team and came out in the second half a dejected team adds to the fuel to ditch the coaching team as this is how we've looked near to all games this year. That isn't a coincidence. For a one off bad performance I'd blame the players but this issue is definitely coaching related.

Our best chance is if the players just play their game they play at club and to hell with Toonie. Vive la révolution as they say in France.



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Post by jimbopip on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 11:34 am


Neily, I don't think a loss to Samoa would be an upset;

Previous 4 meetings
2012 (Apia)
Sam 16-17 Sco
2013 (Durban)
Sam 27-17 Sco
2015 (RWC)
Sam 33-36 Sco
2017 (Murrayfield)
Sco 44-38 Sam

we've beaten them by;  1, 3 & 6 points and they have beaten us by 10. We are playing in conditions which suit them better than us and it's a neutral venue. This is no "gimme".

There has ben a lot of sackcloth, ashes and handwringing since twenty minutes in to the Irish debacle. It is understandable, but is it totally justified?

One of the problems, as I see it, is we seem trapped on a roller-coaster. When everything falls into place we play wonderful rugby and win (or come very, very close) but when things don't work out we are utterly abysmal. I'm not sure That yesterday's performance was worse than the last 6N's at Cardiff, or even as bad as shipping 31 points in 30 minutes at Twickers but calling them acceptable performances qualifies as rugby's equivalent of nominating your local chippy for a Michelin star on the grounds that the pies aren't too fatty.

One question is, why does this keep happening?  Toonie has worked out how rugby should be played, or how Scottish sides need to play in order to succeed despite the handicap of being a small nation. He has coached and selected players who can play his way. When they get it right they are exciting to watch. But why do we keep having these morale sapping shockers?

It's worth remembering that Toonie is a huge fan of John Wooden. One of his maxims was that a coach who truly believed in himself, and his players, would NEVER change the way they played to suit the opposition.

I think that Ireland have some incredibly talented players and are capable of playing fast, open, running rugby. I also believe that Joe Schmidt's team talk yesterday was, " Right lads, defend like your lives depend on it. Blitz and blitz again. Force them into mistakes. Kick to the corners and every time we get into the red zone pick and drive till we score." That's it. Will he stick to that script whatever the opposition? I don't think so. Would Toonie set out his team to play the same way as yesterday if we were to play Ireland next week? I think he very probably would.

Early on yesterday the ball was recycled and quickly moved out to Spacey in the 13 channel. He had options on his outside shoulder but saw NoMaits in space outside the last defender. He threw a miss pass just before the onrushing defence shut the door on him. Unfortunately, in his haste he threw the ball straight into touch.  If he hits NoMaits it's a clear run in. Instead it's an Irish line out which leads to a phase of play which ends in  their first try.

Small margins, but if we had scored first, especially if we had scored early, it would have been a different game. We didn't and the wheels fell off. And on Toonie's Twirl Of Terror roller coaster when the wheels come off you crash and burn. There is no middle ground. I think Toonie sees having a Plan B as an admission that Plan A isn't good enough. Perhaps he needs to find someway of telling himself that having a fire escape on a building is not a condemnation of the architect, just a pragmatic way of dealing with an unfortunate occurrence. Similarly having a way to react to falling behind other than more of Plan A, but faster and better isn't betraying his principles.

I think I've said it before but I'll say it again: when climbing aboard Toonie's Twirl Of Terror we should always remember what Fast Eddie says to Minnesota Fats in The Hustle, "Percentage players die broke too, fat man." At heart Toonie is Fast Eddie.

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Post by RDW on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 11:42 am

I'm not watching the Wales game but following live text - sounds like they're playing exactly the way we need to play against Samoa. Power, direct hard running, playing at tempo and taking our chances. Georgia are being run ragged.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 11:56 am

Wales crushing Georgia, a team we battled to put away.

Why can't we seem to play with speed and intensity in the first 20 minutes??

Struggling to decide on a XV for Samoa. Our preparation has been so poor that there's virtually no depth in the squad. I'd probably go with the same front five, although Scott Cummings for Jonny Gray is tempting.

Back row needs a complete overhaul. Pity Matt Fagerson wasn't picked, as we could use his dynamism. Bradbury, Ritchie and Blade should start together, with Barclay on the bench.

Half backs is easy. Price and Russell with Horne benching. Laidlaw can sap the speed out of the Russia game, and ensure we don't get the bonus point.

Centres is tough, due to poor squad selection. Stick with SJ I say but swap Taylor for Harris. I suspect Samoa will be much better in this department, and I still think our 3 best outside centres are at home.

Back three is a no brainer, Seymour goes for Graham and Kinghorn moves to the bench.

I'm struggling to care to be honest. I don't think I've ever been more disappointed in a Scotland performance, even though we have played worse and had poorer teams in the past. Perhaps because there's just a stench of underachievement with this group, that they are less than the sum of parts. Depressed!!

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Post by RDW on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 12:09 pm

Davies also showing what a runnning, attacking 9 can do - particularly against tier 2 opposition.

We need Price or Horne starting against Samoa.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 12:13 pm

SRU have posted some photos this morning of the players on their way to the next location. Price is on crutches. Hopefully it’s nothing, but still concerning. Also there is someone behind him also on crutches, but I think it might be Watson (photo’s taken before he was sent home?) as they are wearing a knee brace.

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Post by bsando on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 12:18 pm

I'm going to say as close to the same team should go out for this one. Probably Bradbury at 6, Richie at 7 and Thomson at 8 though.

No need to make wholesale changes, the players just need to step up and be accountable.

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Post by bsando on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 12:59 pm

Georgia doing better than us yesterday, two nice tries and some gutsy play

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 1:23 pm

I'd suggest that we've been the worst team in the tournament so far. Don't worry though, because preparations have apparently been "spot on"....

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Post by NeilyBroon on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 1:24 pm

Considering namibia put in a better performance i don't think its a very high bar!
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Post by Hazel Sapling on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 1:54 pm

Toonie is in last chance saloon after that. He has to deliver consistently excellent performances for the next three games, regardless of personnel, and at least push NZ to the brink for the SRU to not be considering his replacement. Got to be looking at Exeter's Rob Baxter as well as Rennie and considering what it would take to get a four year commitment from them should Toonie fail to hit those standards. We can't be having these nightmare performances as often as we have with the players available (is that the third this year or do we also include the first half against England to call it four out of 10?).

As for the players, I disagree Bsando. This should be their dream to play for Scotland at the RWC and there was no energy, no buzz. The only ones who leave with any credit from that game are the starting props and Thomson. No one else was on long enough to make an impact or was good enough to be a positive.

Dell - Brown - Z Fagerson (Reid - McInally - Nel)
Cummings - Gilchrist (Toolis)
Bradbury - Thomson - Barclay (Ritchie)

Price - Russell (Horne - Hastings)
S Johnson - Harris (Taylor)
Maitland - Hogg - Graham

McInally was poor as a player and captain, and needs to be shown that he is droppable. Z Fagerson offers carrying and the scrum is less of a concern against Samoa whilst offering a failsafe on the bench. Cummings offers sorely missing dynamism. Wilson did nothing and Barclay only gets to stay as captain or else stick him on the bench at best. He tried and failed to impact the game, however he seems to play better as captain.

Price matches better with Russell and Horne - Hastings offer an actual alternative if Plan A does not work (Plan B: Go faster). Harris has done more than Taylor recently and it is time to put form ahead of potential. Seymour is out of form and confidence. Taylor covers ahead of Kinghorn for the centre cover.

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Post by EST on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 3:09 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Wales crushing Georgia, a team we battled to put away.

Why can't we seem to play with speed and intensity in the first 20 minutes??

Struggling to decide on a XV for Samoa. Our preparation has been so poor that there's virtually no depth in the squad. I'd probably go with the same front five, although Scott Cummings for Jonny Gray is tempting.

Back row needs a complete overhaul. Pity Matt Fagerson wasn't picked, as we could use his dynamism. Bradbury, Ritchie and Blade should start together, with Barclay on the bench.

Half backs is easy. Price and Russell with Horne benching. Laidlaw can sap the speed out of the Russia game, and ensure we don't get the bonus point.

Centres is tough, due to poor squad selection. Stick with SJ I say but swap Taylor for Harris. I suspect Samoa will be much better in this department, and I still think our 3 best outside centres are at home.

Back three is a no brainer, Seymour goes for Graham and Kinghorn moves to the bench.

I'm struggling to care to be honest. I don't think I've ever been more disappointed in a Scotland performance, even though we have played worse and had poorer teams in the past. Perhaps because there's just a stench of underachievement with this group, that they are less than the sum of parts. Depressed!!

This. The team selections for the warm-ups and ultimately the selection of the squad has felt disjointed and without an overall plan. Picking centres for their defence and then trying to play all court rugby from everywhere, not picking the form backrow in Fagerson, huge amounts of faith in players with very little recent game time, etc. etc.

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Post by 123456789. on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 4:16 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:Toonie is in last chance saloon after that. He has to deliver consistently excellent performances for the next three games, regardless of personnel, and at least push NZ to the brink for the SRU to not be considering his replacement. Got to be looking at Exeter's Rob Baxter as well as Rennie and considering what it would take to get a four year commitment from them should Toonie fail to hit those standards. We can't be having these nightmare performances as often as we have with the players available (is that the third this year or do we also include the first half against England to call it four out of 10?).

As for the players, I disagree Bsando. This should be their dream to play for Scotland at the RWC and there was no energy, no buzz. The only ones who leave with any credit from that game are the starting props and Thomson. No one else was on long enough to make an impact or was good enough to be a positive.

Dell - Brown - Z Fagerson (Reid - McInally - Nel)
Cummings - Gilchrist (Toolis)
Bradbury - Thomson - Barclay (Ritchie)

Price - Russell (Horne - Hastings)
S Johnson - Harris (Taylor)
Maitland - Hogg - Graham

McInally was poor as a player and captain, and needs to be shown that he is droppable. Z Fagerson offers carrying and the scrum is less of a concern against Samoa whilst offering a failsafe on the bench. Cummings offers sorely missing dynamism. Wilson did nothing and Barclay only gets to stay as captain or else stick him on the bench at best. He tried and failed to impact the game, however he seems to play better as captain.

Price matches better with Russell and Horne - Hastings offer an actual alternative if Plan A does not work (Plan B: Go faster). Harris has done more than Taylor recently and it is time to put form ahead of potential. Seymour is out of form and confidence. Taylor covers ahead of Kinghorn for the centre cover.

I can't see Baxter coming up to Scotland; he has consistently turned down the England job by all accounts. I'm not sure what it would take to get a Baxter or a McCall to come up North. However it's not like these coaches are missing out on the big occasions. Their teams are in the titanic, semi-finals every year as it is. Do you risk that all on players who seem like they can't get psyched up for a match against one of their biggest rivals on the biggest stage?
Dave Rennie has hardly set the heather alight at Glasgow either, he's also indicated he wants to go home after this coming season with Glasgow.

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Post by NeilyBroon on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 5:00 pm

Jake White? 😂
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Post by SecretFly on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 5:02 pm

BOOM!

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 5:39 pm

Not sure what the ideal coaching group might look like, will give it some thought, but I can say with absolute certainty that Matt Taylor would not be the defence coach!! I would also ban former Scotland internationals from the coaching team, as it seems to serve no other purpose than to ruin my memory of players I otherwise held in high regard....

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Post by RDW on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 5:46 pm

Tell you what as they day's gone on the reaction has got even more brutal - the Scotsman now with an article saying everything's gone downhill since Townsend left.

We've had a lot of bad results in the last few years but this one has really struck a nerve it would seem!

Our patience / cowpat tolerance has clearly run out.

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Post by RDW on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 5:47 pm

You can't say bullsh!t?? What kind of forum is being run here...

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Post by NeilyBroon on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 5:54 pm

I saw that scotsman article, for a second i read it as being by the former player ali hogg, thinking he had a bee in his bonnet over the years of nonselection. 😂
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Post by NeilyBroon on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 6:41 pm

Right. Bit of fun and daydreaming. As the best reality for Scottish rugby is always hypothetical.

Who do we think should coach us? Who's free to do so?

Someone mentioned steve diamond of sale, which might not be a bad shout to be fair although I feel like he may have been approached by England?

Leftfield suggestion. Pat Lam? He's doing good work with Bristol and made connacht a tough side with a bit of edge to go with the flair.
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Post by jimbopip on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 7:05 pm

Guys, guys.

One scenario; Samoa batter us. Russia run us off our feet for 60 minutes before fatigue undoes them. Japan humiliate us. Toonie stays down under to coach Brumbies.

Second scenario. Cummings, Replicant, Mags and Mabawsa set about Samoa and Wee Horn scores a hat trick. Russia are totally bamboozled. D'arcy stuns the hosts in a 47-33 victory.
The Blackness concede the QF rather than face the humiliation of losing to the best team in the universe.
Toonie given the Freedom Of Leith and a tram named after him.

I know which is more likely.

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Post by NeilyBroon on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 7:16 pm

The Toonie tram. The only tram that does loops and ends up a stop further back from where it started.
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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 7:46 pm

A Toonie Tram, the only single line tram to actually get lost.

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Post by NeilyBroon on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 7:52 pm

It's a fitting replacement for the hype train now that's well and truly derailed. Glove needs to make a new video!
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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 7:58 pm

Lots of doom and gloom. Id be surprised if Scotland didnt finish 2nd in their group with plenty to spare. Scotland are better than the three remaining sides.

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Post by reallybored on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 8:55 pm

I'm feeling pretty serene about this weekend.  

Decent chance we will win but if we don't Toonie will surely have to go, along with Taylor & Wilson.

Hope he makes changes and gives the young guns a crack but if anything, with the noose tightening I could see him doing the opposite and sticking with his experienced campaigners.

The lessons of Cardiff 2018 still haunt us.

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Post by BigGee on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 9:06 pm

Ali Price does have an ankle injury apparently and as yet they don't know how serious it is, with travelling to Kobe today has not really been propetly assessed yet.

He must be doubtful for the Samoa game but hopefully won't be on the next plane home. Thd thought of Henry P getting cslked up next does nor massively inspire me either.

I'd be giving Ben Vellacott a ring to see if he was still intetested.

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Post by EST on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:23 am

Just had a gander through the Samoa team for the Russia game. Aside from the halfbacks, they look a very competent team and they gave the wallabies a good run out a couple of weeks ago.

I was concerned about this game before the Ireland debacle, see our performance against them at home a couple of years ago, now i'm in full on private Fraser mode.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:50 am

The Samoa team looks pretty good. Russia are dangerously unfit and this was a 5 day turnaround right? Should be a slaughter.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:56 am

Sorry misread this as Russia v Samoa first... but I guess it's still kinda relevant!

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Post by jimbopip on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:58 am

The Aldi price injury really bad news. A sickener for him and a huge blow to the squad's morale I would imagine.

Either Toonie continues with Frodo at 9 and the Fastest 9 In The World for the last 5 minutes OR the whole squad decide, "Well lads, we're Friar Tucked here so let's just give it a lash."

For Samoa
(1) pick the gnarliest, punchiest pack we have
(2) pick the fastest, most aggressive in your face backs we have.

1. Dell Shrek
2. Brown Rambo
3. Ragnar Nel
4. Cummings
5. Toolis GG. I noticed someone saying Toolis and Cummings don't complement each other, let's not overcomplicate matters; Jonny tackles himself to a standstill but doesn't impose himself around the park, GG tries to smash it up but doesn't make enough yards. So lets put in two very mobile youngsters and tell them, in the words of Lawrence Taylor to "have some fun, like a pack of junkyard dogs!"
6. Bradbury
7. Mabawsa
8. Replicant Batman to bench; there may be a Samoan forward who hasn't been "wound up" sufficiently by the hour mark.

9. Wee George Let's go all in: if we believe we're on the Fastest Tram In The World then get a driver who's not chronically risk averse. Frodo has to bench
10. DancerHaircut. Tom English was saying that SJ doesn't read Dancer's lines of running, blaming it on his RL background. I think the game plan was to bypass the 12 channel. We need the ball in SJ's mitts and him taking it to the line to create space outside. We also need a back up 10 in case Dancer and Toonie are not talking.
11. D'arcy
12. SJ
13. Hardest Working Defender he has looked competent every time he has come on. deserves his chance.
14. King Blarehorn. Fecc it, he's fast and might make something happen.
15. Hogg. With instructions to ram it up them every time they kick to him.
Taylor as 23, covers everywhere.
.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:59 am

These blasted haunting 'piano' sequences!

I love the piano but please...enough!!!!!

(A reference to some fill-in 'piece' on ITV right now...for those who are wondering what the hell I'm on about)

'Always', says Mikey Wink

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 11:44 am

Why is Swinson playing full back for Russia?

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Post by RDW on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:09 pm

Anyone watching the Samoa game? Looks pretty close.

Are Samoa not actually that good or are Russia just much better than everyone expected them to be?

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Post by bsando on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:18 pm

I'm watching at work. Pretty messy, awful hits, fighting, poor ball retention. I'm feeling good about our chances against these two, much more than Sunday. Japan are the serious danger for us now.

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Post by RDW on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:26 pm

Sounds like there might be a few post game bans - most people saying the yellows could easily have been reds.

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Post by bsando on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:43 pm

Samoa look in control now

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Post by tigertattie on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:53 pm

Russia went to 14 men and couldn’t hold out

Now they are behind and chasing it looks like their wheels have fallen off.

We could put a team of Pete Hornes out there against them and could still win.

Samoa are also a bit headless to be honest. Neither team should be troubling us.

But we are Scotland so.......
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Post by EST on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 1:00 pm

tigertattie wrote:Russia went to 14 men and couldn’t hold out

Now they are behind and chasing it looks like their wheels have fallen off.

We could put a team of Pete Hornes out there against them and could still win.

Samoa are also a bit headless to be honest. Neither team should be troubling us.

But we are Scotland so.......

You only need to look at the past results in the OP to know that this is true.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 1:03 pm

Wasn't that a try?

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 1:16 pm

Samoa are woeful. Only thing Scotland should be concerned about is being drawn into an ugly brawl or suffering injuries.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 1:27 pm

This game just got interesting. chin

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Post by jimbopip on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 2:15 pm

RDW wrote:Sounds like there might be a few post game bans - most people saying the yellows could easily have been reds.

I believe a player can only be cited if the ref misses the incident. If he penalised it in any way then action has been taken.

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