SF1 - Match Thread - ENGLAND v NEW ZEALAND - 26/10/19 - K/O 09:00 BST

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Again, making these early for the sake of ease and consistency.

ENGLAND

Team:Daly; Watson, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Wilson, Heinz, Slade, Joseph.

NEW ZEALAND

Team: Beauden Barrett; Sevu Reece, Jack Goodhue, Anton Lienert-Brown, George Bridge; Richie Mo'unga, Aaron Smith; Joe Moody, Codie Taylor, Nepo Laulala, Brodie Retallick, Sam Whitelock, Scott Barrett, Ardie Savea, Kieran Read (capt).

Replacements: Dane Coles, Ofa Tuungafasi, Angus Ta'avao, Patrick Tuipulotu, Sam Cane, TJ Perenara, Sonny Bill Williams, Jordie Barrett.



Venue: Yokohama
Referee: Nigel Owens
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Pascal Gauzere
TMO: Marius Joncker

[LondonTiger]

He has also come out and praised Curry's lineout improvement over the "last 6-7 weeks".

I don't think we'll see any changes in the XI, but Nowell for JJ on the bench

You are allowing your cricket persona to shine through.

[Afro]

He has also come out and praised Curry's lineout improvement over the "last 6-7 weeks".

I don't think we'll see any changes in the XI, but Nowell for JJ on the bench

You are allowing your cricket persona to shine through.

Was just talking about The Hundred in the office.

actually, just means I'm not sure what will happen for 12-15....

[Soul Requiem]

I don't think Jones will have even contemplated splitting up Curry and Underhill in the back row, the breakdown battle will be more important than the line out.

[Afro]

I don't think Jones will have even contemplated splitting up Curry and Underhill in the back row, the breakdown battle will be more important than the line out.

Agree with this. If England are going to win it, they need to stop quick NZ ball from the breakdown, so Curry and Underhill are vital.

[TightHEAD]

Maybe I need to read the site rules again but I'm 100% sure nothing was wrong with my comments.
Can a rugby forum survive when rugby talk is removed?

[BamBam]

Give it a rest Tighthead

You're about as subtle as a brick to the face

[Gooseberry]

He has also come out and praised Curry's lineout improvement over the "last 6-7 weeks".

I don't think we'll see any changes in the XI, but Nowell for JJ on the bench

You are allowing your cricket persona to shine through.

Was just talking about The Hundred in the office.

actually, just means I'm not sure what will happen for 12-15....

Given how little ball 12-14 see its not entirely wrong to concentrate on just XI

[TightHEAD]

I've never taken a backwards step when harassed or bullied.

Lets hope England can do the same this Saturday.

[BamBam]

Might have already been posted but Nowell and May both fully fit for the weekend. I'd start Ford and have Slade / Nowell in the 22/23 shirts

Goodhue's mullet is going to run even further away from his face when Manu starts running at him

[LondonTiger]

Maybe I need to read the site rules again but I'm 100% sure nothing was wrong with my comments.
Can a rugby forum survive when rugby talk is removed?

I archived our posts and asked other Mods to review them. If you have an issue speak to them.

[TightHEAD]

I feel like Jaco Peyper!

World rugby investigating his conduct for having a picture taken with rugby fans having a good time!
What is the world coming too.

May and Nowell both fit and well to take on the All Blacks, great news for the squad.

[Afro]

Maybe I need to read the site rules again but I'm 100% sure nothing was wrong with my comments.
Can a rugby forum survive when rugby talk is removed?

I archived our posts and asked other Mods to review them. If you have an issue speak to them.

And the response was everyone should just move on

[TightHEAD]

Happy days, Thanks Afro.

Rugby is the winner once again.

[Poorfour]

Before the tournament started, Jones apparently said in an interview that you need lineout options in your back row against New Zealand. Curry has taken some when he's played but he could entertain the idea of starting Lawes, Kruis and Itoje, with one of Curry or Underhill on the bench. It would be a very big call...

Nay, nay and thrice nay. Locks at 6 works at club level, but we have seen repeatedly that it doesn't work at international level. Not even against Scotland, and certainly not against New Zealand. Against Cane and Savea, England are going to need Curry and Underhill at the top of their game.

And it could well be where the game is won or lost. I think elsewhere you can argue about whether man for man which side is weaker or stronger, but I don't think we will know until the game starts whether Curry and Underhill can get parity or better with Savea and Cane. Whichever way it goes could be decisive. New Zealand have an exceptional coherence in attack - but disrupt their supply of quick ball and it gets much harder to maintain. England have attacking threats everywhere, but slow ball reduces them to trucking it up the middle and hoping to make a break.

We don't yet know how good Curry and Underhill could be. They were up against one of the world's best flank pairs against Australia and emerged with enormous credit. Next Saturday, they'll be up against another one.

[Afro]

Savea/Cane or Pocock/Hooper?

Up until today, I'd have said it was really close and just gone for the Aussie pair.

As Poorfour says, the fact that they came out of the battle with them with credit, stands them in good stead against NZ.

But for me the NZ match is much more about stopping them getting quick ball rather than necessarily turning the ball over.

[Old Man]

I feel like Jaco Peyper!

World rugby investigating his conduct for having a picture taken with rugby fans having a good time!
What is the world coming too.

May and Nowell both fit and well to take on the All Blacks, great news for the squad.

And Peyper wasn’t even as subtle as you

[Scottrf]

Savea/Cane or Pocock/Hooper?

Up until today, I'd have said it was really close and just gone for the Aussie pair.

As Poorfour says, the fact that they came out of the battle with them with credit, stands them in good stead against NZ.

But for me the NZ match is much more about stopping them getting quick ball rather than necessarily turning the ball over.

Definitely Savea/Cane at this point in time.

[BamBam]

Agree on the need to stop them getting quick ball. Curry looks to be a do everything type of flanker, but Underhill's strength is tree felling - do we need him to do a bit more slowing down at the ruck rather than being the one to make the tackle?

[Afro]

Its going to be both. You need to wrap them up in the tackle and make it hard to offload, and then in the ruck disrupt to again stop the quick ball coming.

[Afro]

Ultimately though we are playing NZ and stopping their attack is probably the hardest challenge in the game.

You think you want to hunt in pairs, wrap them in the tackle and compete at the breakdown, only for them to still recycle it and just run around your narrow defence because you're hunting in pairs!!!

[maestegmafia]

When Underhill was Tips understudy at the Ospreys his bang wallop was admirable but he didn’t Wally get the subtleties of openside. He had a great number of games for us, did a superb job, (Tips was injured I think) but he lacked the game reading nouse Tips has in buckets. He isn’t that kind of player.

More Lewis Moody than Richard Hill

[Poorfour]

Definitely Savea/Cane at this point in time.

It was definitely Pocock/Hooper until about 9.15 on Saturday...

As to slowing down New Zealand's ball, Underhill's a ferocious tackler, but there's also more to him than that. He's got the build to get low over the ball and if you watch him closely there are subtle differences in his body position going into the ruck depending on whether he's clearing out, disrupting or genuinely going for the ball.

That said, one small area of concern on Saturday was that England were occasionally fractionally too slow to the breakdown and lost their own ball. I think that can be adjusted, but they will need to watch it or risk giving the ABs turnover ball which they won't be so happy to give back to us as the Aussies.

[LondonTiger]

When Underhill was Tips understudy at the Ospreys his bang wallop was admirable but he didn’t Wally get the subtleties of openside. He had a great number of games for us, did a superb job, (Tips was injured I think) but he lacked the game reading nouse Tips has in buckets. He isn’t that kind of player.

More Lewis Moody than Richard Hill

Bearing in mind he was still 20 when he signed for Bath, it is no surprise that he was not the finished article. You would certainly expect Tipuric, who is seven years older, to read a game better. while Curry seems to have a more innate understanding of the game, Underhill is developing nicely.

[No 7&1/2]

Hes improved at lot at bath. Used to be a tackle machine and obviously still has that but his decision making on when to go for the turnover has improved so much. Carrying improved immeasurably too.

[Scottrf]

Definitely Savea/Cane at this point in time.

It was definitely Pocock/Hooper until about 9.15 on Saturday...

Said who? A lot of the Australians were talking about dropping Pocock.

Probably the same people who have thought Parisse has been the best 8 in the world over the last 5 years.

[TightHEAD]

Interesting stat, make of it what you will!

Ford 14 tackles 0 missed - Farrell 31 tackles, 11 missed.

[TightHEAD]

Should we sing 'Swing Low Sweet Chariot' or GSTQ during the Haka on Saturday?

[Afro]

Should we sing 'Swing Low Sweet Chariot' or GSTQ during the Haka on Saturday?

Knees up Mother Brown?

[LondonTiger]

Interesting stat, make of it what you will!

Ford 14 tackles 0 missed - Farrell 31 tackles, 11 missed.

Different role defensively. Not one to automatically defend Farrell (especially as I am a Ford fan) but if you look at his 3 misses on Saturday (vs 17 successful) he stopped the attacker in his tracks and the tackle was completed by the second defender. Admittedly his stats were worse when playing at 12, and perhaps part of the reason for the midfield shuffle.

Ford misses a smaller number of tackles, but they are usually passive tackles. Farrell misses more but they are often dominant tackles. Ford is criticised for letting people make ground in the tackle, Farrell criticised for being too aggressive and missing more.

Swings and roundabouts.

[LondonTiger]

Should we sing 'Swing Low Sweet Chariot' or GSTQ during the Haka on Saturday?

Knees up Mother Brown?

I will be taking the opportunity to make a cup of tea. The Haka in recent games has seemed to take ever longer with less movement. I swear at one point they were playing musical statues. The time for the Haka and the obligatory ad break is perfect to get the kettle boiled.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

A roundabout would probably be better than a swing in defence. A swing would get sinbinned.

[No 7&1/2]

Ford has the best tackle stats for a fly half in 2019. 53 of 55 tackles completed.

[Afro]

Should we sing 'Swing Low Sweet Chariot' or GSTQ during the Haka on Saturday?

Knees up Mother Brown?

I will be taking the opportunity to make a cup of tea. The Haka in recent games has seemed to take ever longer with less movement. I swear at one point they were playing musical statues. The time for the Haka and the obligatory ad break is perfect to get the kettle boiled.

I have perfected my pre-match timing. Saturday I woke up naturally, got up, made the family a bacon and sausage sarnie each, and a cup of tea for me and the missus, switched on the TV just as Advance Australia Fair was finishing.

Sunday I repeated the trick, but just toast this time as I fancied a bit of a longer sleep, and switched on as they finished Land of my Fathers.

[Afro]

A roundabout would probably be better than a swing in defence. A swing would get sinbinned.

A roundabout would be offside half the time though

[Luckless Pedestrian]

And don't expect it to straighten the line in attack either.

[BamBam]

Could put the defence in a spin though

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I'm going to let that slide....

[TightHEAD]

Should we sing 'Swing Low Sweet Chariot' or GSTQ during the Haka on Saturday?

Knees up Mother Brown?

I will be taking the opportunity to make a cup of tea. The Haka in recent games has seemed to take ever longer with less movement. I swear at one point they were playing musical statues. The time for the Haka and the obligatory ad break is perfect to get the kettle boiled.

At last something we agree on.

[SecretFly]

Drinking tea during a game!?

I laugh.  A recipe for disaster in my house.  Nobody has ever worked out the rule yet.  I keep getting asked do I want a cup of tea or keep getting given a cup of tea during important games.

"Don't f**king Annoy me!!!! I can even listen to the commentary with all the f**king sounds of cutlery and bloody spoons!  Now I have to eat something too!  Don't give me food when the ref has blown the whistle and our scrum has gone down!!!!"

[Gooseberry]

As zi said earlier best bet is to s schedule the haka to take place during GSTQ then we can pretend to sing over it, noone has to listen to that dirge, we dont have to wait for the dancing to end to watch the game.

[Rugby Fan]

On the Times podcast, Dallaglio addressed the question of whether Jones might strengthen the lineout.

While he agreed the misfiring lineout may have been a factor in the last loss, he argued that Underhill was a key reason we were in that game at all, while Curry has just won man of the match. He thinks Jones might switch Kruis and Lawes, with the option to bring Lawes on early if the lineout is failing.

(In 2018, we had Shields and Wilson starting in the back row, who are both competent in the lineout, so we suffered even though we had a number of options)

[BamBam]

We've looked pretty comfortable on our line out all tournament, I really hope he doesn't change the back row balance for the sake of a perceived weakness.

George has thrown accurately to all jumpers, and I think Curry has shown enough to be the third jumper without needing to make such a drastic change

[robbo277]

Kruis might be restored to the starting line-up, but I can't see Lawes getting in at 6 for this one. Not from the start anyway.

[Scottrf]

I think Kruis will replace Lawes, same back row.

[No 7&1/2]

To be fair following that New Zealand test ben kay did some step by step analysis of the lineouts that went astray. Think I must have bought the paper as it looks like its behind a time pay wall. My memory was that it wasnt as bad as i thought at the time.

[LondonTiger]

To be fair following that New Zealand test ben kay did some step by step analysis of the lineouts that went astray. Think I must have bought the paper as it looks like its behind a time pay wall. My memory was that it wasnt as bad as i thought at the time.

Here you go:

England lost five of their ten second-half lineouts after Jamie George came on at hooker but it would be wrong to say that their set piece capitulated, because they were victims of three dreadful decisions in a row from the officials.


1 - 51min 48sec: England knock-on
England’s lineout had been 100 per cent up to this point. George had come on at half-time and thrown one to Brad Shields at the back and two to Maro Itoje in the middle. The call on this throw was Shields at the front, where he was lifted by Sinckler. Scott Barrett had just come on and Itoje said that his arrival prompted a change to the way New Zealand defended the lineout, effectively switching from zonal marking to man-to-man.

Barrett was mirroring Shields and got up well but a touch later and without a jumper. Shields caught the ball but then spilt it after Barrett knocked his left arm in the air. The referee called it a “good competition” for the ball and ten years ago England would have had no complaints but the law now prevents contact in the air. This should have been a penalty to England, not a knock-on and scrum to New Zealand.

2 - 54.28: George “dummy”
George was penalised for dummying the lineout throw, which was a dreadful decision from the officials. George cocked back his arms but they never came forward and the referee imagined he had dummied it because New Zealand reacted too early. It cannot be a dummy unless the arms come through but George leaves the ball behind his head before executing a perfect throw. England were stunned by the call.

3 - 56.18: New Zealand steal
England call a four-man lineout with Itoje and Shields and two jumpers. England try and hit Itoje at the front but Brodie Retallick jumped so far across the line to nick the throw that he landed on Sinckler, who was lifting Shields. That should have been another clear penalty. England managed the situation well and on their next lineout, George threw the ball low and to the front for Itoje, which secured possession. It was smart lineout management.


4 - 66.12: New Zealand steal
Charlie Ewels had just come on and taken over the lineout calling from George Kruis and he makes a poor decision. He should have seen from the bench how New Zealand were putting the pressure on England and calling a throw to a spot where Retallick could get up in front of Itoje was the wrong decision.

England’s lineout was now under massive pressure but Ewels called the next throw to himself, winning it in the middle. That is the sign of a a good lineout, that you keep backing your drills even after a difficult run.


5 - 69.55: New Zealand steal
England had a great chance to secure field position and work a drop-goal routine but the execution was poor. Courtney Lawes’s dummy at the front was not convincing enough, allowing Retallick to leap in front of Itoje again and steal possession.

Steve Borthwick, England’s forwards coach, will not be concerned by the lineout. Remove the three incorrect decisions and England suffered from one ill-judged throw and some tired execution. Not a bad day, despite the perception.

[No 7&1/2]

Ah thanks LT.

[Guest]

This is the game where Tuilagi can effectively win the RWC for England, in my opinion. If he's utilised, he's the difference. Likwise the back rowers Underhill and, increasingly, Curry.

Australia failed to live up to the hype, but can see this one being at least engrossing, if not full of flowing rugby.

[No 7&1/2]

They played as they tend to vs England.

[BamBam]

Genuinely didn't recall so many lineout errors in that game last year, but that's a good breakdown by Kay. Reflects badly on the referee if they've missed all of those, but I can't remember there being that much discussion about them, so maybe they were marginal

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