SF1 - Match Thread - ENGLAND v NEW ZEALAND - 26/10/19 - K/O 09:00 BST

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Again, making these early for the sake of ease and consistency.

ENGLAND

Team:Daly; Watson, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Wilson, Heinz, Slade, Joseph.

NEW ZEALAND

Team: Beauden Barrett; Sevu Reece, Jack Goodhue, Anton Lienert-Brown, George Bridge; Richie Mo'unga, Aaron Smith; Joe Moody, Codie Taylor, Nepo Laulala, Brodie Retallick, Sam Whitelock, Scott Barrett, Ardie Savea, Kieran Read (capt).

Replacements: Dane Coles, Ofa Tuungafasi, Angus Ta'avao, Patrick Tuipulotu, Sam Cane, TJ Perenara, Sonny Bill Williams, Jordie Barrett.



Venue: Yokohama
Referee: Nigel Owens
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Pascal Gauzere
TMO: Marius Joncker

[No 7&1/2]

So apart from Slade daly tuilagi and joseph what have the romans ever done for us.

[Collapse2005]

The near miss is too soon. I'll be able to start thinking about that again 8 59am on saturday. Hopefully that was their bit of luck over with.

I think you should take plenty of confidence from it. A contentious referee decision decided Englands fate in a hard fought game. Chances are England might have won if the Ireland game came first.

That NZ had to face you guys after being roughed up by us must have helped. I was hoping that you may return the favour.

Ha yeah sorry about that.

[Soul Requiem]

Damn shame that Nowell isn't playing instead of Watson, could have added his name to a list of zero.

[Guest]

No clear 13, except Tuilagi and Joseph.

No clear starting 13. You can add Slade and, recently, Daly to that mix as well. Hence no clear 13.

There's a very clear starting 13. It's on the official England Rugby Twitter.

Let's wait and see. Rotation suggests no clear 13 in EJ's mind. Seems all 4 have defensive issues, and Tuilagi gets the nod as he brings more explosivity and EJ see it as offsetting what's lost with not picking him. Let's see how it goes.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

He's not an outside centre, he's a very naughty boy!

[BamBam]

So apart from Slade daly tuilagi and joseph what have the romans ever done for us.

Stop bullying miaow

[Soul Requiem]

I like how JJ has defensive issues based on a single try Wales scored from a set play aside from which he's been superb in that regard for years.

[Guest]

I like how JJ has defensive issues based on a single try Wales scored from a set play aside from which he's been superb in that regard for years.

That would be fine except I called the try before it happened, and held this position before it happened, too. Maybe that one try isn't the only issue?

Either way, cba having this chat again - it's all personal, I get that.

[Rugby Fan]

...no clear 13 in EJ's mind...

Do you also think Hansen has no clear blindside in mind, after selecting Scott Barrett in his first Test start in the position? Perhaps there's no clear no.10, with the two-time World's Best Player in that position moved in favour of Richie Mo'unga, who has only 8 Test starts. Surely Hansen must also have doubts about full back, where he has left the veteran Ben Smith out of his squad, in favour of Shifting Beauden Barrett there.

[No 7&1/2]

Wheres pooly. I think tom youngs was made for this game.

[Scottrf]

...no clear 13 in EJ's mind...

Do you also think Hansen #has no clear blindside in mind, after selecting Scott Barrett in his first Test start in the position? Perhaps there's no clear no.10, with the two-time World's Best Player in that position moved in favour of Richie Mo'unga, who has only 8 Test starts. Surely Hansen must also have doubts about full back, where he has left the veteran Ben Smith out of his squad, in favour of Shifting Beauden Barrett there.

It's clear there's room for it to be flexibility/adapting/tactics and not just uncertainty.

[robbo277]

Cannot see Farrell being taken off unless it's desperate measures. I don't believe Farrell has ever been withdrawn unless England are losing and being outplayed - might be wrong, but that's my abiding memory, of Farrell jogging off, head down, to the cheers of the opposition as they realise they're going for broke as a last resort and taking off Faz.

Interesting set up though. Slade perhaps makes Farrell less important. Think Joseph's pace means you have to get him on the field if you're in need of a try. Electric in attack.

No clear 13 for England though. I've made clear what I think about Tuilagi's defence in that channel, and wiith Goodhue running at him, I can see a mistimed blitz going wrong for Manu and NZ profiting.

With regards to Joseph, I've heard from an unverified twitter account that Joseph has been training at 15 and is therefore the back 3 cover on the bench, I guess with Slade exclusively covering those midfield positions.

Now Joseph could obviously go into the midfield as well, but it sounds like he could be being groomed to be the "back-up Daly". Naturally an attacking 13, similar skillset to Daly (less the massive left peg) could probably join the line to a similar effect. Also has similar drawbacks (not a natural 15, positioning therefore potentially suspect). I'd say he's a better one-on-one tackler than Daly though.

This could just be complete fake news. But it's an interesting thought. And potentially a huge gamble to have someone so untried in that position coming on there in a World Cup semi-final.

[Guest]

...no clear 13 in EJ's mind...

Do you also think Hansen has no clear blindside in mind, after selecting Scott Barrett in his first Test start in the position? Perhaps there's no clear no.10, with the two-time World's Best Player in that position moved in favour of Richie Mo'unga, who has only 8 Test starts. Surely Hansen must also have doubts about full back, where he has left the veteran Ben Smith out of his squad, in favour of Shifting Beauden Barrett there.

Each depends on the context. Depth and rotation doesn't necessarily mean good competition and depth, just as it doesn't necessarily mean it's a weaknes. In this instance, I think it's a bit of both for England at 13. The issue is there are also question marks at 9 and 15, where there isn't rotation. For NZ, it's almost never about weakness, in any position, but I do think NZ adapted to the issue at 10 - I was never convinced by Beauden at 10, and seems Hansen took the huge risk of dropping a world player of the year by shunting him around. First it was to bring in D Mac to effectively share the role, where Barrett was defending and setting up as much in the outside channels as at 10, and now it's to move him to 15 with Mo'unga at 10. So, weakness identified, and 2 solutions clearly produced. For England, I feel this is less a solution, and more 'pick Ford and Farrell and Tuilagi gets in because of his ability' rather than anything technical or related to the gameplan. As I said, I think he is a defensive weakness, and we'll see how that goes. It's an interesting situation with NZ having too relatively slight centres after 15 years of Nonu and then SBW at 12. That could see Manu getting some headway with ball in hand, but no doubt NZ have prepared for that as well...

[Rugby Fan]

Weather Watch

Raining in Tokyo & Yokohama since about 8:00pm tonight. Due to tip it down on Friday morning, easing off by the afternoon. One key change though: Saturday was expected to be cloudy with occasional showers but looks like we'll be dry now, with the possibility of slightly warmer temperatures than Friday.

[Rugby Fan]

[Guest]

Have to wonder how different Wales and England would be if these two had stayed within and been capped by Wales.

[Soul Requiem]

Have to wonder how different Wales and England would be if these two had stayed within and been capped by Wales.

In fairness I've always considered Faletau the better player so don't think Billy would have made much difference to Wales but Mako would have done.

[Scottrf]

But you'd have missed out on Warburton, Moriarty, North etc.

[TightHEAD]

[Rugby Fan]

Have to wonder how different Wales and England would be if these two had stayed within and been capped by Wales.

In fairness I've always considered Faletau the better player so don't think Billy would have made much difference to Wales but Mako would have done.

You'd probably have wanted both in your team, so the question would be who to move to blindside.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Warburton's Cardiff born and bred (or bread, boom boom). But this has been done to death!

[BamBam]

It has, but some insist on bringing it up unnecessarily

[Scottrf]

Warburton's Cardiff born and bred (or bread, boom boom). But this has been done to death!

Oops, not sure why I thought him!

[Rugby Fan]

At the end of this video, Rugby Analyst selects a combined team 9:6 in New Zealand's favour. The pack is evenly split, but only May and Tuilagi make it from the England backs.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Warburton's Cardiff born and bred (or bread, boom boom). But this has been done to death!

Oops, not sure why I thought him!

His parents are English, or his dad at least.

[Guest]

But you'd have missed out on Warburton, Moriarty, North etc.

When did these players spend a significant part of their formative years growing up in England and playing age grade rugby? Moriarty went over there late teens and with about as broad a Welsh accent as Mako has...it's not really the same point.

[Guest]

Have to wonder how different Wales and England would be if these two had stayed within and been capped by Wales.

In fairness I've always considered Faletau the better player so don't think Billy would have made much difference to Wales but Mako would have done.

I think Faletau is better, too, but I wonder if we might have seen him moved to 6, for instance, to accomodate. Mako coming through as Gethin wound down would have been fantastic to see. I'd still put Gethin ahead of Mako but two props built from the same mould, for sure.

It's more in terms of depth though. Look at Wales' back row already - decimated, nearly.

[TightHEAD]

Both played for Burnham-on-sea too.

[Guest]

At the end of this video, Rugby Analyst selects a combined team 9:6 in New Zealand's favour. The pack is evenly split, but only May and Tuilagi make it from the England backs.

I rememer Haskell talking about 'rugby nauses on youtube like the one with the shirts in the background'. This must be him.

[Soul Requiem]

Have to wonder how different Wales and England would be if these two had stayed within and been capped by Wales.

In fairness I've always considered Faletau the better player so don't think Billy would have made much difference to Wales but Mako would have done.

I think Faletau is better, too, but I wonder if we might have seen him moved to 6, for instance, to accomodate. Mako coming through as Gethin wound down would have been fantastic to see. I'd still put Gethin ahead of Mako but two props built from the same mould, for sure.

It's more in terms of depth though. Look at Wales' back row already - decimated, nearly.

I'm not entirely sure you'd want to disrupt having Warburton with one of Lydiate or Tipuric starting with the other on the bench personally. The pace of the Welsh back row was a major factor in winning all those grand slams.

[Guest]

True, but I feel the Vunipolas broke through after that back row trio peaked. Lydiate (and Roberts, and Cuthbert, and a few others) were on a downward spiral in 2014 and never regained that 2011-13 form. It feels like Billy is only really peaking now, which is a good 4-5 years after Lydiate's Wales career should have ended - Shingler should have been picked ahead of him long ago, and his longevity shows that. Lydiate's now struggling in the second row for the Ospreys, Shingler's at the RWC. Either way, this is definitely getting off topic, so I'll leave it, but more a sign of how important they are to England, and disappointment on Wales' part that they really did slip through the net.

[No 7&1/2]

Its unsurprising that there are envious eyes cast on the English players.

[Guest]

Its unsurprising that there are envious eyes cast on the English players.

All nations do it, of course. What England would give for Liam Williams or Halfpenny this weekend! Probably about £20,000 a game, I'd imagine...

[No 7&1/2]

Well if he qualified I'd have Williams and I'm sure Jones would too. Anyway they dont they're welsh.

[Soul Requiem]

Its unsurprising that there are envious eyes cast on the English players.

All nations do it, of course. What England would give for Liam Williams or Halfpenny this weekend! Probably about £20,000 a game, I'd imagine...

Williams yes, Halfpenny no, I'd rather Mike Brown.

[TightHEAD]

Not 1/2p, he'll cost wales a Final appearance.

But anyway can we get back to discussing ENGLAND V New Zealand????????

[TightHEAD]

Talk about de-railing a thread!

[Guest]

Its unsurprising that there are envious eyes cast on the English players.

All nations do it, of course. What England would give for Liam Williams or Halfpenny this weekend! Probably about £20,000 a game, I'd imagine...

Williams yes, Halfpenny no, I'd rather Mike Brown.

Think you'd be in a minority of 'England fans only' with that call, but to each their own. Either way, demonstrates the point, doesn't it. You can even hear the twinge of jealousy in the likes of TMan's praise for Tuilagi - what NZ would give to have him instead of, say, SBW in their midfield. It's no different for Wales with two boys brought up and schooled in Wales and the Welsh rugby system being poached by England - a disappointing situation, really, and their important to England demonstrates their quality.

[TightHEAD]

Brown everyday for me.

[TightHEAD]

We would have won the Lions tour if Brown had played.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

True, but I feel the Vunipolas broke through after that back row trio peaked. Lydiate (and Roberts, and Cuthbert, and a few others) were on a downward spiral in 2014 and never regained that 2011-13 form. It feels like Billy is only really peaking now, which is a good 4-5 years after Lydiate's Wales career should have ended - Shingler should have been picked ahead of him long ago, and his longevity shows that. Lydiate's now struggling in the second row for the Ospreys, Shingler's at the RWC.

No offence Miaow, but that's poor logic. Shingler being better now doesn't show he was better then.

[No 7&1/2]

Could we set up another thread for the lions teams?

[Guest]

True, but I feel the Vunipolas broke through after that back row trio peaked. Lydiate (and Roberts, and Cuthbert, and a few others) were on a downward spiral in 2014 and never regained that 2011-13 form. It feels like Billy is only really peaking now, which is a good 4-5 years after Lydiate's Wales career should have ended - Shingler should have been picked ahead of him long ago, and his longevity shows that. Lydiate's now struggling in the second row for the Ospreys, Shingler's at the RWC.

No offence Miaow, but that's poor logic. Shingler being better now doesn't show he was better then.

Best to have this chat over on the Wales thread if you want to Luckless. Don't want to gettoo far off topic.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I'm done!

[BamBam]

Poached by England is complete nonsense but par for the course

Let's move on

[TightHEAD]

I believe it was the other way around as they were playing in Engand 1st then poached and filled with disappointment over the other side of the Severn, but glad they came home after seeing the light.

[Scottrf]

Think you'd be in a minority of 'England fans only' with that call, but to each their own. Either way, demonstrates the point, doesn't it. You can even hear the twinge of jealousy in the likes of TMan's praise for Tuilagi - what NZ would give to have him instead of, say, SBW in their midfield. It's no different for Wales with two boys brought up and schooled in Wales and the Welsh rugby system being poached by England - a disappointing situation, really, and their important to England demonstrates their quality.

I'd swap.

[Guest]

I believe it was the other way around as they were playing in Engand 1st then poached and filled with disappointment over the other side of the Severn, but glad they came home after seeing the light.

"Born in Wellington, New Zealand, Vunipola was raised for much of his childhood in Wales and attended Porth County Community School, and later West Monmouth School. He started playing rugby in Wales, and played alongside brother Billy for New Panteg RFC. His family then moved to Thornbury, Gloucestershire, and he attended the local comprehensive The Castle School and then Millfield. "

"Fe'ao Moe Lotu Vunipola (born 6 January 1969) is a Tongan former international rugby union player, who participated at the 1995 Rugby World Cup and 1999 Rugby World Cup.[1] He is also the father of Mako Vunipola[2] and Billy Vunipola;[3] he is married to Methodist Minister, Rev. Iesinga Vunipola (who is also Chaplain to the UK Tongan Community).[4] He moved to Wales in 1998 to sign with Pontypool, and in 1999 joined up with Pontypridd.[5] He left to join neighbours Caerphilly in 2001. "

You definitely can't accuse me of derailing the thread if you're trying to make silly points like the above! Far more derailing going on from English posters talking about Lions etc.

[Scottrf]

Ah well, our players are who they are. You'll have to stick with the rabble from the France game.

[TightHEAD]

Yawn..............

Missing that French game has given us such an advantage, the lads look fit and up for this game.

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