RWC final 19 - England v SA Match Thread - 02-11-2019 - Kick Off 09:00am

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

The big one. The Rugby World Cup Final.

ENGLAND

Elliot Daly; Anthony Watson, Manu Tuilagi, Owen Farrell, Jonny May, George Ford, Ben Youngs; Mako Vunipola, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Courtney Lawes, Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Billy Vunipola

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Joe Marler, Dan Cole, George Kruis, Mark Wilson, Ben Spencer, Henry Slade, Jonathan Joseph

SOUTH AFRICA

Le Roux; Kolbe, Am, De Allende, Mapimpi; Pollard, De Klerk; Mtawarira, Mbonambi, Malherbe, Etzebeth, De Jager, Kolisi (capt), Du Toit, Vermeulen.

Replacements: Marx, Kitschoff, Koch, Snyman, Mostert, Louw, H Jantjies, Steyn

Venue: International Stadium, Yokohama
Referee: Jerome Garces
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Ben O'Keefe
TMO: Ben Skeen

Head to Head

42 Played 42
15 Won 25
25 Lost 15
2 Drawn 2

Recent Form

16 June 2012
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
36 – 27 to South Africa

23 June 2012
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium,
Port Elizabeth
14 – 14 draw

24 November 2012
Twickenham, London
15 – 16 to South Africa

15 November 2014
Twickenham, London
28 – 31 to South Africa

12 November 2016
Twickenham, London
37 – 21 to England

9 June 2018
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
42 – 39 to South Africa

16 June 2018
Free State Stadium, Bloemfontein
23 – 12 to South Africa

23 June 2018
Newlands, Cape Town
10 – 25 to England

3 November 2018
Twickenham, London
12 – 11 to England

[No 7&1/2]

The obvious ones are all around NZ. 95 you mentioned but its before I started watching rugby I'd say 11 as well.

[Guest]

2007- NZ
2011 - Wales
2019 - South Africa...?

England will be good value if they win the thing in all fairness. This is such a stupid point of discussion.

[LondonTiger]

Are there any calls other than injuries to make? de Allende obviously poses a similar big running risk as Australia did but given the midfield defended so well vs NZ and the ford farrell partnership working so well in attack would they switch away from this now. Can't see any other changes they'd be tempted to make but this is Eddie Jones!

Decisions to make for Eddie? Assuming no injuries:

Ford/Farrell probably not set in stone.
Lawes/Kruis - while I love what the Saint brings, there is still a chance they could switch
Owner of Shirt 23

[BamBam]

I'd add Jonny May to LT's list, which obviously affects 23

[LondonTiger]

I did say assuming no injuries


TBH I do not buy into this talk of his issue being a dead leg. From the start he looked like a guy with a slight strain who is able to canter but worried about the sprint. He is a hugely important component in our atatck and defence, but we cannot afford to carry any passengers.

[Scottrf]

in the end, England's pathway has, through no fault of their own, been the easiest of any team in the tournament

Hilarious. Australia and NZ to get to the final, vs Japan, Wales. Think I'll leave the convo with you there.

[Afro]

2003 and maybe 2019 obviously

Harsh. That England team had beaten all before them prior to that World Cup, including all 3 on the SANZAR in the Autumn before and NZ in NZ in the summer.

I don't think a RWC has ever been won by a team not up there in the discussion of the best in the world, and very rare that a finalist isn't - probably France in 2011 and 1999, and England in 2007

[R!skysports]

Well after this weekend game, it could be a cracker of a match.

If England play the way they did against NZ, then I think they will win by 30 points.

BUT can SA use their power game to unsettle the men in white and stop them getting into a flow.
What impressed me was that the England team really wanted to keep the ball to themselves a lot more, and evertime NZ got the ball, they wanted to smash them back to get the ball back - very distructive tackilng

First game for a long time where I have seem Itoji worth his hype too

I hope it is a good contest and not a kicking borefest

Think England will win by 15

[protea438]

2003 and maybe 2019 obviously

Harsh. That England team had beaten all before them prior to that World Cup, including all 3 on the SANZAR in the Autumn before and NZ in NZ in the summer.

I don't think a RWC has ever been won by a team not up there in the discussion of the best in the world, and very rare that a finalist isn't - probably France in 2011 and 1999, and England in 2007

Well England bombed when it mattered the most against Wales and Scotland

[BamBam]

2003 and maybe 2019 obviously

Harsh. That England team had beaten all before them prior to that World Cup, including all 3 on the SANZAR in the Autumn before and NZ in NZ in the summer.

I don't think a RWC has ever been won by a team not up there in the discussion of the best in the world, and very rare that a finalist isn't - probably France in 2011 and 1999, and England in 2007

You know me better than that Afro

[Guest]

in the end, England's pathway has, through no fault of their own, been the easiest of any team in the tournament

Hilarious. Australia and NZ to get to the final, vs Japan, Wales. Think I'll leave the convo with you there.

Wales beat Australia, South Africa played NZ in the groups where England's toughest group game was 17 minutes against Argentina and the game against France was cancelled. I'll give you Japan though, forgot about them. Probably on par in terms of progression in the end, but I was thinking about the groups when I said that, not the knockouts, but an oversight on my part and it's been gladly gobbled up as a sign of bias. Oh well.

[Soul Requiem]

2003 and maybe 2019 obviously

Harsh. That England team had beaten all before them prior to that World Cup, including all 3 on the SANZAR in the Autumn before and NZ in NZ in the summer.

I don't think a RWC has ever been won by a team not up there in the discussion of the best in the world, and very rare that a finalist isn't - probably France in 2011 and 1999, and England in 2007

Well England bombed when it mattered the most against Wales and Scotland

The six nations during a world cup year is when it matters most?

[Afro]

2003 and maybe 2019 obviously

Harsh. That England team had beaten all before them prior to that World Cup, including all 3 on the SANZAR in the Autumn before and NZ in NZ in the summer.

I don't think a RWC has ever been won by a team not up there in the discussion of the best in the world, and very rare that a finalist isn't - probably France in 2011 and 1999, and England in 2007

You know me better than that Afro

Only just appreciated it was your post Bam.........

[Barney McGrew did it]

Dead leg my arris. May was definitely not 100% for any of the NZ game - he didn't even attempt an outside skin fairly early in the game (his usual bread & butter). Given it's the last game of the competition (and May is one of our best players) Eddie may want to risk him for a while - but it would be a risk. And wouldn't do May any favours. Pretty sure he picked up the problem in the QF.

[protea438]

2003 and maybe 2019 obviously

Harsh. That England team had beaten all before them prior to that World Cup, including all 3 on the SANZAR in the Autumn before and NZ in NZ in the summer.

I don't think a RWC has ever been won by a team not up there in the discussion of the best in the world, and very rare that a finalist isn't - probably France in 2011 and 1999, and England in 2007

Well England bombed when it mattered the most against Wales and Scotland

The six nations during a world cup year is when it matters most?

Well I am reading here that winning World Cup doesnt mean you are the best so its means winning 6 Nations or Rugby Championship as well. Granted England were trash in 2018, and not close to be in contention then.

[No 7&1/2]

I think rugby championship when its home and away does. Mini league format. 6 nations for me doesn't due to the format. That is well wide of the topic though!

[bsando]

Saw that the RFU have employed Conor O’Shea, nice bit of business there.

[Guest]

Is Eddie Jones staying come what may? England win - does he stay? England lose - does he stay? I can see reasons to stay and leave for both outcomes tbh, particularly winning.

[protea438]

Is Eddie Jones staying come what may? England win - does he stay? England lose - does he stay? I can see reasons to stay and leave for both outcomes tbh, particularly winning.

Big fat pay cheque to go back to Australia. That will be classic Eddie. He did it before will do it again.

[Old Man]

Some food for thought.

Deciding who the best team is you need to set parameters.

Someone suggested playing a team 10 times, how many you win suggests the better team.

However, lets consider that theory between SA an England.

Last ten tests, SA 6, England 3 and one draw.

Now lets talk details. South Africa went through their worst period under Allister Coetzee in 2016-17, got pummeled by England, in fact they got pummeled by just about everyone then.

South Africa last year won only 50% of their matches, this year, they have only lost one, winning 9 and drawing one.

So question, are they a better team than last year? I would think so, however it must be noted Rassie is still building, he will be very happy with his forwards, his bench, but realistically his backline is a mish mash of underperforming experienced players ( He cannot play without some experience in the backline) and youngsters.

Thus there is no doubt England have a better backline.

So Rassie will stick to his plan, I doubt he will attempt to expect much more in the way of expansive rugby.

Will it be enough? We’ll know this weekend. Criticism aside, very few South Africans would have expected to reach the final.

[LondonTiger]

Saw that the RFU have employed Conor O’Shea, nice bit of business there.

He was first employed by the RFU in 2005 and was responsible for setting up the 14 academies. Now I think it is almost a DoR role.

[Taylorman]

Why Bam,

Wales biggest ever game and Gatland reverted to a dull game plan base on kick chase, maybe he should have have come up with a better plan, how long has he been around?

What right has he got to have a dig at England, typical salty Kiwi.

Calm down dear...both Gats and Schmidt have resorted to having to adapt to NH rugby. They just do it better than NH coaches.theyre resigned to the fact that they would never have had the skill levels to play the NZ way, successfully anyway.

When Gats gets back he’ll have better produce at the Chiefs to play a more open game, which NZ rugby will demand. But hopefully he’ll bring with it some of the knowledge from NH systems, in the same way our IP gets replicated into the NH literally by the boatload.

I’m picking his chances for NZ coach have just gone up. NZ will have to admit it needs a view of NH rugby we don’t currently have.

[Guest]

Is Eddie Jones staying come what may? England win - does he stay? England lose - does he stay? I can see reasons to stay and leave for both outcomes tbh, particularly winning.

Big fat pay cheque to go back to Australia. That will be classic Eddie. He did it before will do it again.

I'd be surprised. It needs a redeemer, a rebuilder, someone who will sort the grassroots out. Frankly, it needs a Lancaster and THEN Australia need an Eddie Jones. Eddie's great, but he's not what Australia need. The system support and base just isn't there in Australia for him to do what he does. But maybe? I'd be amazed but maybe it will happen.

[TightHEAD]

Whatever the Aussies offer the RFU would offer more.

After 2003 we had so many retirements, of the current crop of players I don't think any are retiring just yet. I think the hunger would still be there. Not all of them can go into the media and talk Love sacks.

[Duty281]

If England win on Saturday, they’ll be comfortably the best team in the world and would have earned it through beating the four Southern Hemisphere nations; three of them, so far, by comfortable, dominant and decisive margins.

Whether they can turn it into a sustained period of being the best is yet to be seen. After 2003, things quickly fell apart with retirements, injuries, and Woodward leaving in 2004. The platform is far more stable this time, with a number of key players still expected to be around in 2023, and a multitude of promising young players on the horizon.

[lostinwales]

Whatever the Aussies offer the RFU would offer more.

After 2003 we had so many retirements, of the current crop of players I don't think any are retiring just yet. I think the hunger would still be there. Not all of them can go into the media and talk Love sacks.

I think he'll either stay with England for a while longer, retire, or just go do some consulting. I don't think he's got a rebuild in him and probably took the England job because the foundations were already there. Well that and the money.

[king_carlos]

The 2003 England squad had 14 players aged 30 or older.

This squad has 5 players aged 30 or over. 3 of them - Lawes, Youngs and Wilson - are 30 years old as well so have years left.

The other two are Cole and Heinz. Neither of whom are starters and both of whom are 32.

So it's definitely a squad that can stay together for longer than the 2003 squad did after that RWC.

[majesticimperialman]

Going for the Boks next weekend are two things.

One, they’ve never lost a final. Vs NZ and vs England.

Two, they’ve won ugly with the semi final.

England have done neither, winning every match easily.

Going for England, it’s simple. They’re the best team here.

A real Prince and the pauper deal going on here.

Taylorman.

Seen this post just before i went to work this ,morning, so thought i would reply with this post.

You say going for the Boks next week end two things.

One they have never lost a final Vs  NZ  Vs England.
Firstly you are living in the past, the past does not count, this Boks team have never played this England team in a rugby world cup Final.

I have said this on other board.s  like for example Wales have won the last 4 games against the "BOKS". BUT THEY LOST TO THEM ON SUNDAY.

England have only won about 8/9 games against New Zealand since  the game went professional. BUT THEY BEAT THEM ON SATURDAY.

England have done neither, winning every thing easy.

So are you infact saying, or am i miss reading your post that England have not been ( TESTED YET) in this Rugby World Cup?

I thought myself that England got a big (TEST) winning against New Zealand.

Another point in the 6ns Every team wants to beat England. And teams like Wales, Ireland, and Scotland a some times have done so.

But in the Rugby World Cup every team wants to beat New Zealand. and not many teams do so.

In case you have for gotten they have won 2 consecutive back to back Rugby World Cups.

[Scottrf]

England -4 at 10/11. Great value.

[protea438]

[quote="majesticimperialman"]

Firstly you are living in the past, the past does not count, this Boks team have never played this England team in a rugby world cup Final.

But you are doing the same thing

[Taylorman]

Going for the Boks next weekend are two things.

One, they’ve never lost a final. Vs NZ and vs England.

Two, they’ve won ugly with the semi final.

England have done neither, winning every match easily.

Going for England, it’s simple. They’re the best team here.

A real Prince and the pauper deal going on here.

Taylorman.

Seen this post just before i went to work this ,morning, so thought i would reply with this post.

You say going for the Boks next week end two things.

One they have never lost a final Vs  NZ  Vs England.
Firstly you are living in the past, the past does not count, this Boks team have never played this England team in a rugby world cup Final.

I have said this on other board.s  like for example Wales have won the last 4 games against the "BOKS". BUT THEY LOST TO THEM ON SUNDAY.

England have only won about 8/9 games against New Zealand since  the game went professional. BUT THEY BEAT THEM ON SATURDAY.

England have done neither, winning every thing easy.

So are you infact saying, or am i miss reading your post that England have not been ( TESTED YET) in this Rugby World Cup?

I thought myself that England got a big (TEST) winning against New Zealand.

Another point in the 6ns Every team wants to beat England. And teams like Wales, Ireland, and Scotland a some times have done so.

But in the Rugby World Cup every team wants to beat New Zealand. and not many teams do so.

In case you have for gotten they have won 2 consecutive back to back Rugby World Cups.

I have given two reasons, one historical, one from last week (winning ugly)

You’re examples are true. But no truer than Ireland have never won a quarter final, came into this tournament ranked number one, and again, cracked under pressure.

Wales were ranked no. 1 and also have never done well at this tournament, and played two shoddy knockouts.

We have also been ranked no. 1 but have won it when so.

You can deny history as much as you want by being selective, but as I said it is one of two factors about this final.

I didn’t say they were winning factors just incidental pieces of information. Take them as you wish, and you have.

NZ and Wales both lost the semis.

They play each other this week. NZ lost in a manner worse than Wales did.

Does that mean Wales are going to win?

Or perhaps does the fact they haven’t beaten them since 1954, 31 losses straight, and the fact the the ABs haven’t lost back to back since 2009 mean nothing?

Okey dokey.

We’ll see, because based on this tournament, this should be close.

We’ll call it history versus current.

That do for you?

[stub]

As others have said, if England play like they did against the ABs then I think they are unstoppable. Problem is that the Boks might work out a way to stop them and drag them into a match on their terms. Here’s hoping that England can keep up the form of last Saturday and dictate things. It’s going to be fun finding out either way!

[Scottrf]

NZ will beat Wales because they are the better team playing better rugby, not because of the previous 31 losses.
South Africa have a winning record against England. They are not favourites. Anything over 2 years ago is irrelevant for this SA side.

[Taylorman]

NZ will beat Wales because they are the better team playing better rugby, not because of the previous 31 losses.
South Africa have a winning record against England. They are not favourites. Anything over 2 years ago is irrelevant for this SA side.

I thinks its because of both- should they win. But then, Wales could still win. Depends how much either side wants a dead rubber, which is what this is in context of the tournament.

This ones all about emotion, so who knows? Both sides are hurting, both sides are losing players, captains, coaches. Its more about that than the tournament itself.

[Geordie]

Everything goes out the window on saturday. Two good sides will blast it out.

History means jot.

Lets hope its a cracker....and that england win.

[majesticimperialman]

Who are the officials for this game.

[BamBam]

Referee: Miaow
Assistants: Guns, mikey
TMO: Taylorman

[majesticimperialman]

Referee: Miaow
Assistants: Guns, mikey
TMO: Taylorman

[stub]

We are fecked BamBam!

[BamBam]

First TMO/referee discussion to go on for 3 days leading to SA being awarded the cup on points scored in the group stage

[SecretFly]

Referee: Miaow
Assistants: Guns, mikey
TMO: Taylorman

Very good. Disaster of a game! But very good, Bam.

[stub]

Yeah, it would be a very long game.... That England would certainly lose.

[Guest]

Referee: Miaow
Assistants: Guns, mikey
TMO: Taylorman

Off you go

[Guest]

I'd actually be a great ref. Love the contest. Very accepting of a lot if within the spirit of the game.

I'll even take a bit of backchat as well.

But if you're wrong?

Off you go.

[yappysnap]

I'd actually be a great ref. Love the contest. Very accepting of a lot if within the spirit of the game.

I'll even take a bit of backchat as well.

But if you're wrong?

Off you go.

haha

The game would never start. Two hours after kick off you'd still be in the changing rooms talking to the team captains telling them your views on the breakdown and why some other player was actually better then them both anyway.

[LondonTiger]

Who are the officials for this game.

Garces
Poite
O"Keefe
Skeen

[protea438]

Kolbe fit for final

[LondonTiger]

Kolbe fit for final

Good.

[No 7&1/2]

I find this an odd selection of official. Feels like a it's your turn pick.

[Poorfour]

I find this an odd selection of official. Feels like a it's your turn pick.

He's the best available candidate. Barnes would have done it if England hadn't made the final (and it's a shame that a ref of his quality never got to do the Final), and Nige has already done it and it seems like they don't like to give it to anyone more than once. Garces is the highest rated of the refs that aren't those two.

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