RWC final 19 - England v SA Match Thread - 02-11-2019 - Kick Off 09:00am

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

The big one. The Rugby World Cup Final.

ENGLAND

Elliot Daly; Anthony Watson, Manu Tuilagi, Owen Farrell, Jonny May, George Ford, Ben Youngs; Mako Vunipola, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Courtney Lawes, Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Billy Vunipola

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Joe Marler, Dan Cole, George Kruis, Mark Wilson, Ben Spencer, Henry Slade, Jonathan Joseph

SOUTH AFRICA

Le Roux; Kolbe, Am, De Allende, Mapimpi; Pollard, De Klerk; Mtawarira, Mbonambi, Malherbe, Etzebeth, De Jager, Kolisi (capt), Du Toit, Vermeulen.

Replacements: Marx, Kitschoff, Koch, Snyman, Mostert, Louw, H Jantjies, Steyn

Venue: International Stadium, Yokohama
Referee: Jerome Garces
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Ben O'Keefe
TMO: Ben Skeen

Head to Head

42 Played 42
15 Won 25
25 Lost 15
2 Drawn 2

Recent Form

16 June 2012
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
36 – 27 to South Africa

23 June 2012
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium,
Port Elizabeth
14 – 14 draw

24 November 2012
Twickenham, London
15 – 16 to South Africa

15 November 2014
Twickenham, London
28 – 31 to South Africa

12 November 2016
Twickenham, London
37 – 21 to England

9 June 2018
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
42 – 39 to South Africa

16 June 2018
Free State Stadium, Bloemfontein
23 – 12 to South Africa

23 June 2018
Newlands, Cape Town
10 – 25 to England

3 November 2018
Twickenham, London
12 – 11 to England

[Gooseberry]

Ah right, drugs...

More the implication

Well the stats suggest its England that have packed the muscle mass on to smaller frames whilst still being able to run around for 80 minutes. Something something Farah something something

Its easy to cast aspersions, although frankly it would be a big surprise if any team was truly clean, but we are where we are on that pandoras box. Rugby has yet to really confront the subject so for now we just assume its a level playing field with players from all nations having the same access to PEDS and the low risk of getting caught.

far more important is to ensure no-one crosses the halfway line before the game starts.

[Guest]

I don't think anyone's arguing England aren't a massive pack as well.

Two biggest forward packs in the world lining up at the weekend.

[TightHEAD]

England are not that big.

[Guest]

Can't imagine how sizeable your, errr, girth is TH if you think that...

[Gooseberry]

England are not that big.

How big are they then?

[Gooseberry]

Can't imagine how sizeable your, errr, girth is TH if you think that...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMiKyfd6hA0

(but with england and sa players)

[MightyQuin]

Sam Burgess has retired. Looks like Phil Vickery has too.

[Rugby Fan]

Apropos nothing, can I just say "If England play the way they did against NZ, then they'll win" is a truism, rather than a forecast. Of course they would win, if they did that against any opposition. Similarly, if NZ played the way against England the way the did against Ireland, then they would have won.

[Soul Requiem]

Apropos nothing, can I just say  "If England play the way they did against NZ, then they'll win" is a truism, rather than a forecast. Of course they would win, if they did that against any opposition. Similarly, if NZ played the way against England the way the did against Ireland, then they would have won.

Not sure you can do the same with the NZ performance based on there being a few teams better than Ireland.

[Gooseberry]

 Looks like Phil Vickery has too.

Phils a lot smaller these days. Must be all that time he spends in South Africa.

[Guest]

Apropos nothing, can I just say  "If England play the way they did against NZ, then they'll win" is a truism, rather than a forecast. Of course they would win, if they did that against any opposition. Similarly, if NZ played the way against England the way the did against Ireland, then they would have won.

Possibly - it's not a guarantee. No guarantee that 'the way they played v NZ' gets the same rewards v SA. NZ were wasteful in possession when they couldn't challenge the lineout. The Boks' set piece looks like a different prospect.

[Guest]

Sam Burgess has retired. Looks like Phil Vickery has too.

It was a weird end foro Burgess.

If you've seen interviews with him recently, he very dramatically changed his accent - pseudo Northern-Ozzy. Very weird.

Also was getting in a lot of problems off the ball - suspensions, talking out about the NRL maybe as well? Seemed to be becoming a liability and barely playing.

Disappointing end to his career. A fine player and could easily have been at this RWC if he weren't rushed in 2015.

[Scottrf]

I don't think anyone's arguing England aren't a massive pack as well.

Two biggest forward packs in the world lining up at the weekend.

Except they are not. Tonga are. Frances pack earlier this year 60kg heavier than this SA pack. Unfortunately by official weigh in not miaow estimated weights though.

[TightHEAD]

I don't think anyone's arguing England aren't a massive pack as well.

Two biggest forward packs in the world lining up at the weekend.

Except they are not. Tonga are. Frances pack earlier this year 60kg heavier than this SA pack. Unfortunately by official weigh in not miaow estimated weights though.

The Tongans were fat, does fat count?

[TightHEAD]

Played a game in the Valleys once that pack was just ridiculous, Not a player under 20 stone and that was just the backs.

[Afro]

I don't think anyone's arguing England aren't a massive pack as well.

Two biggest forward packs in the world lining up at the weekend.

Except they are not. Tonga are. Frances pack earlier this year 60kg heavier than this SA pack. Unfortunately by official weigh in not miaow estimated weights though.

The Tongans were fat, does fat count?

Are you bigger if you are fatter? I'd say so

[Guest]

I don't think anyone's arguing England aren't a massive pack as well.

Two biggest forward packs in the world lining up at the weekend.

Except they are not. Tonga are. Frances pack earlier this year 60kg heavier than this SA pack. Unfortunately by official weigh in not miaow estimated weights though.

Size isn't just weight. Also good to know you believe everything wikipeia tells you...

[TightHEAD]

Bigger saggy moobs or bigger muscular pecks?

[Scottrf]

I don't think anyone's arguing England aren't a massive pack as well.

Two biggest forward packs in the world lining up at the weekend.

Except they are not. Tonga are. Frances pack earlier this year 60kg heavier than this SA pack. Unfortunately by official weigh in not miaow estimated weights though.

Size isn't just weight. Also good to know you believe everything wikipeia tells you...

Over your guesswork? You haven't provided anything.

[Soul Requiem]

News to me that the official weights are straight off of Wikipedia.

This argument will carry on until Miaow has the final word as is its want.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Played with a young man (dirty minded lot if you think that is funny) at school who was 6'6" and 18 stone at 15 years old. Not much of it blubber either. He was virtually unstoppable at that age.

He went on to represent GB at track and field, became the worlds strongest man and married a tiny little american distance runner who famously had an accident with a South African in the LA Olympics.

10 points if anyone knows who is is.

[Old Man]

Ron Tabb, Mary Decker, Zola Budd

[No 7&1/2]

Richard Slaney. I cheated though.

[mikey_dragon]

News to me that the official weights are straight off of Wikipedia.

This argument will carry on until Miaow has the final word as is its want.

Size isn't just weight... funny, I thought the only parameter we used is weight (in kilograms). SA were 900kg on the weekend, Wales at 914kg if I remember correctly. You can tell Tonga are bigger by just looking at them, where-as France were something ridiculous like 940 or 980kg in the 6N; I don't really remember.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

10 points to 71/2, but self disqualified for cheating.

5 points to Old Man for Zola Budd

[Guest]

I don't think anyone's arguing England aren't a massive pack as well.

Two biggest forward packs in the world lining up at the weekend.

Except they are not. Tonga are. Frances pack earlier this year 60kg heavier than this SA pack. Unfortunately by official weigh in not miaow estimated weights though.

Size isn't just weight. Also good to know you believe everything wikipeia tells you...

Over your guesswork? You haven't provided anything.

Yeah I have. Your choice to ignore it.

(edit - actually, it was deleted in al fairness over the page)

[Guest]

News to me that the official weights are straight off of Wikipedia.

This argument will carry on until Miaow has the final word as is its want.

Size isn't just weight... funny, I thought the only parameter we used is weight (in kilograms). SA were 900kg on the weekend, Wales at 914kg if I remember correctly. You can tell Tonga are bigger by just looking at them, where-as France were something ridiculous like 940 or 980kg in the 6N; I don't really remember.

You have to be pretty thick to think those stats are accurate when you compare PSTD to Wainwright, Vermeulen to Moriarty, and Kolisi to Tipuric in all fairness.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

He used to live up the road from me, a year younger and a whole lot bigger even when I was 16, 6'3" and 14 stone which is pretty big anyway.

We also had a 16 stoner in the second row and identical twins as props both 5'6" high, wide, and deep with a 6'+ hooker.

Interesting times.

[mikey_dragon]

News to me that the official weights are straight off of Wikipedia.

This argument will carry on until Miaow has the final word as is its want.

Size isn't just weight... funny, I thought the only parameter we used is weight (in kilograms). SA were 900kg on the weekend, Wales at 914kg if I remember correctly. You can tell Tonga are bigger by just looking at them, where-as France were something ridiculous like 940 or 980kg in the 6N; I don't really remember.

You have to be pretty thick to think those stats are accurate when you compare PSTD to Wainwright, Vermeulen to Moriarty, and Kolisi to Tipuric in all fairness.

I'm just pointing out what was seen, so it is an actual source (if you check the match thread you'll see I questioned them), unlike you who doesn't post a source and resorts to petty jibes. Keep hiding behind the keyboard coward.

[Guest]

Rich coming from you mikey.

Size isn't just weight. Not that hard to work out...is it? Surely not. Surely it's not that hard...

[MightyQuin]

What do we think about the team selections to be announced then? Pretty clean bill of health across both squads? Bar Heinz obvs.

[George Carlin]

I don't think anyone's arguing England aren't a massive pack as well.

Two biggest forward packs in the world lining up at the weekend.

Except they are not. Tonga are. Frances pack earlier this year 60kg heavier than this SA pack. Unfortunately by official weigh in not miaow estimated weights though.

The Tongans were fat, does fat count?

Are you bigger if you are fatter? I'd say so

My cardiologist says yes.

[mikey_dragon]

Rich coming from you mikey.

Size isn't just weight. Not that hard to work out...is it? Surely not. Surely it's not that hard...

I'm not the one constantly posting petty jibes and insults when people disagree with me, that's you and it is well documented. Kind of childish to say otherwise when it's there.

It's the parameter we're using, surely not that hard to work out. Reminds of the time you were desperate to prove Cubby was bigger than someone else when he wasn't , another failed argument just like this one.

Find something else to do with your time. Yes I know you'll repeat that back to me. Yes I know you'll desperately keep trying to get the last word in until everyone 100% agrees with you. I'm really not interested, and don't think anyone else is either. Find something else to do.

[mikey_dragon]

What do we think about the team selections to be announced then? Pretty clean bill of health across both squads? Bar Heinz obvs.

You've no idea how lucky you are

[Guest]

Rich coming from you mikey.

Size isn't just weight. Not that hard to work out...is it? Surely not. Surely it's not that hard...

I'm not the one constantly posting petty jibes and insults when people disagree with me, that's you and it is well documented. Kind of childish to say otherwise when it's there.

It's the parameter we're using, surely not that hard to work out. Reminds of the time you were desperate to prove Cubby was bigger than someone else when he wasn't , another failed argument just like this one.

Find something else to do with your time. Yes I know you'll repeat that back to me. Yes I know you'll desperately keep trying to get the last word in until everyone 100% agrees with you. I'm really not interested, and don't think anyone else is either. Find something else to do.

You absolutely are. I would say there hasn't been a more successful WUM on these boards in terms of the impact you've had in driving people away from the site.

Your distorted memory is about as distorted as your rugby views. Honestly, I don't think I have EVER said anything as embarrassing as 'GET JOSH ADAMS OFF NOW!' before he went on to score a hat trick. Genuinely, the lack of shame is unreal - and that's far from your worst call, just an indictment of how reactionary you are.

Size is:

- Height
- Breadth/Width
- Weight

Which is the most volatile? Weight

Which is the hardest to quantify when simply assessing them on screen/at the game in person? Weight

Which is the easiest to lie about? Weight

Embarrassing for you.

[LondonTiger]

I don't think anyone's arguing England aren't a massive pack as well.

Two biggest forward packs in the world lining up at the weekend.

Except they are not. Tonga are. Frances pack earlier this year 60kg heavier than this SA pack. Unfortunately by official weigh in not miaow estimated weights though.

The Tongans were fat, does fat count?

Are you bigger if you are fatter? I'd say so

My cardiologist says yes.

Nah, the fatter you get, the smaller your erection is.

A "friend" told me.

[majesticimperialman]

I don't think anyone's arguing England aren't a massive pack as well.

Two biggest forward packs in the world lining up at the weekend.

Except they are not. Tonga are. Frances pack earlier this year 60kg heavier than this SA pack. Unfortunately by official weigh in not miaow estimated weights though.

The Tongans were fat, does fat count?

Are you bigger if you are fatter? I'd say so

My cardiologist says yes.

Nah, the fatter you get, the smaller your erection is.

A "friend" told me.

Hmmmm, would that friend be a mirror image of your self?

[mikey_dragon]

Rich coming from you mikey.

Size isn't just weight. Not that hard to work out...is it? Surely not. Surely it's not that hard...

I'm not the one constantly posting petty jibes and insults when people disagree with me, that's you and it is well documented. Kind of childish to say otherwise when it's there.

It's the parameter we're using, surely not that hard to work out. Reminds of the time you were desperate to prove Cubby was bigger than someone else when he wasn't , another failed argument just like this one.

Find something else to do with your time. Yes I know you'll repeat that back to me. Yes I know you'll desperately keep trying to get the last word in until everyone 100% agrees with you. I'm really not interested, and don't think anyone else is either. Find something else to do.

You absolutely are. I would say there hasn't been a more successful WUM on these boards in terms of the impact you've had in driving people away from the site.

Your distorted memory is about as distorted as your rugby views. Honestly, I don't think I have EVER said anything as embarrassing as 'GET JOSH ADAMS OFF NOW!' before he went on to score a hat trick. Genuinely, the lack of shame is unreal - and that's far from your worst call, just an indictment of how reactionary you are.

Size is:

- Height
- Breadth/Width
- Weight

Which is the most volatile? Weight

Which is the hardest to quantify when simply assessing them on screen/at the game in person? Weight

Which is the easiest to lie about? Weight

Embarrassing for you.

No I am not. You do it with most posts. I'm not the one who complains about another post that disagrees with my point of view. Remember when someone else called you out on that quite recently? Oh dear.

You don't seem to get it. Like I said, we already have a parameter and that's what we used. My source was ITV. You didn't provide any source so rather than admit you didn't know what you're talking about you just move the goal posts in another desperate attempt to try and be right. I wasn't wrong, I used the parameter and you got personal again because you didn't know what else to say. It's quite pathetic really.

As for the rest of your post, well I haven't knowingly driven anyone away with my comments so we don't know what you're talking about, again. If 'GET JOSH ADAMS OFF NOW!' bothers you that much, seeing as you're still going on about it, seek help. I wasn't the only person to tell you about Adams btw, and other people called out when you started throwing your dummy around the place after the game had finished. You're the only person on this forum who comes across as needing counselling. I suggest watching your erratic and disturbing posting-behaviour, like I've told you numerous times since you joined this forum.

Mods, no idea why you continually allow this 'person' to try and dominate the forum. It's ruining the site.

[Guest]

Am I losing my mind or is it just that old adage about arguing and pigs?

Surely I can't be the only one slightly confused at the idea that some totally unverifiable 'weight' stats are a useless barometer of 'size' compared to...errrr...height and girth of the players?

p.s. checklist

- Crying/Infantile reference: check
- Retelling of history: check
- Obliviousness of impact on others: check, check

[mikey_dragon]

It's quite simple. The parameter is weight in kilograms, because ITV doesn't also show the height and d*ck length of each individual forward. That is what we're referencing. It seems like you're arguing with yourself now because nobody has said otherwise. Maybe you should take it up with ITV. Yeah if you don't get it you are losing your mind but based on your years of 'good debate', as you once put it, I've always thought your head was gone.

Like I said, check your behaviour as there's long been a few concerns that have been publicly raised about your posting.

[Scottrf]

Hopefully for the final instead of the standard pack weight comparison they compare the total pack height. Hoping we can get close to 16m.

[Guest]

Like I said, check your behaviour as there's long been a few concerns that have been publicly raised about your posting.

pot, kettle, black

[mikey_dragon]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[Guest]

indeed...

[Rugby Fan]

BBC got Leonard, Johnson, Dawson, Tindall and Grayson together to talk about 2003. I thought I'd heard just about all the stories from that tournament but this had some which were new to me. One was even new to Martin Johnson.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07sjfg1

[Rugby Fan]

After all the speculation, Jones named an unchanged England team, except for Spencer replacing Heinz on the bench.

England: Elliot Daly; Anthony Watson, Manu Tuilagi, Owen Farrell (captain); Jonny May, George Ford, Ben Youngs; Mako Vunipola, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Courtney Lawes, Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Billy Vunipola.

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Joe Marler, Dan Cole, George Kruis, Mark Wilson, Ben Spencer, Henry Slade, Jonathan Joseph.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/oct/31/england-unchanged-for-world-cup-final-with-kyle-sinckler-declared-fit

[No 7&1/2]

I hope that means may is fully fit. How that pack goes is so important. Very different challenge to that of NZ. I hear these are the two widest packs so we're in for a treat.

[majesticimperialman]

Glad to see Wilson keeping is place, he did really well when he came on getting a turn over.
It is also nice that EJ as kept faith with Ford and Farrell. partnership.

I feel it will be a different type of game than ENG V NZ, more aggressive type of game.
SA will want to get their big forwards running and smashing England backwards. 

But despite all that i do believe England can and will cope very well.

[robbo277]

It shows a lot of faith to keep England unchanged, save for the injury to Heinz. It was a performance worthy of winning any World Cup knockout game last week but it wasnt the perfect performance by any stretch, so still room for England to move in a forward direction. I felt 10-0 was light at half time so hopefully if we can play a similar half of rugby we can get our attacking game firing a little more accurately and hopefully make the second half more comfortable.

[RiscaGame]

It shows a lot of faith to keep England unchanged, save for the injury to Heinz. It was a performance worthy of winning any World Cup knockout game last week but it wasnt the perfect performance by any stretch, so still room for England to move in a forward direction. I felt 10-0 was light at half time so hopefully if we can play a similar half of rugby we can get our attacking game firing a little more accurately and hopefully make the second half more comfortable.

You're right. 10-0 was at least one score light.

Delighted to see Sinckler is fit. Would've been awful to have been ruled out, so close to the final.

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