RWC final 19 - England v SA Match Thread - 02-11-2019 - Kick Off 09:00am

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

The big one. The Rugby World Cup Final.

ENGLAND

Elliot Daly; Anthony Watson, Manu Tuilagi, Owen Farrell, Jonny May, George Ford, Ben Youngs; Mako Vunipola, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Courtney Lawes, Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Billy Vunipola

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Joe Marler, Dan Cole, George Kruis, Mark Wilson, Ben Spencer, Henry Slade, Jonathan Joseph

SOUTH AFRICA

Le Roux; Kolbe, Am, De Allende, Mapimpi; Pollard, De Klerk; Mtawarira, Mbonambi, Malherbe, Etzebeth, De Jager, Kolisi (capt), Du Toit, Vermeulen.

Replacements: Marx, Kitschoff, Koch, Snyman, Mostert, Louw, H Jantjies, Steyn

Venue: International Stadium, Yokohama
Referee: Jerome Garces
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Ben O'Keefe
TMO: Ben Skeen

Head to Head

42 Played 42
15 Won 25
25 Lost 15
2 Drawn 2

Recent Form

16 June 2012
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
36 – 27 to South Africa

23 June 2012
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium,
Port Elizabeth
14 – 14 draw

24 November 2012
Twickenham, London
15 – 16 to South Africa

15 November 2014
Twickenham, London
28 – 31 to South Africa

12 November 2016
Twickenham, London
37 – 21 to England

9 June 2018
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
42 – 39 to South Africa

16 June 2018
Free State Stadium, Bloemfontein
23 – 12 to South Africa

23 June 2018
Newlands, Cape Town
10 – 25 to England

3 November 2018
Twickenham, London
12 – 11 to England

[Old Man]

Just remember one thing, Rassie came to the world cup to win, forget previous matches, you need to be in it to win it, Rassie has prepared his team to win.

[Scottrf]

He’s done an incredible job. The game plan is just a bit too limited.

[Old Man]

He’s done an incredible job. The game plan is just a bit too limited.

Yes, it seems limited, but it has been effective, I am sure there will be something extra for England, Rassie knows you have to score points as well. Looking at the way the Springboks played in the RC, and how they played the knock outs, there must be a combination of the two.

He will obviously have the Boks focus on the fundamentals first, and then use opportunities when they present themselves.

Rassie has been very humble, very complimentary about his opponents, same as with England, there is more to his game plan than meets the eye.

[Collapse2005]

SA will need to move to plan B when they realise that Englands blocking runners make it really hard to gather your own ball or even contest box kicks.

[majesticimperialman]

Last week against New Zealand England played like i have never seen them play before.
They staved NZ of getting any momemtum, turn them over 19 times i think it was.

Surely Rassie watched the game, and will know how to counter against it.

Will be interesting game tomorrow. Cannot wait.

[Old Man]

I never expected us to make the final, so throughout the tournament I wasn’t nervous, almost blaze about the tournament, but having gotten this far I have gained some faith in this Bok team lead by Rassie, now I am as sick as a dog.

I know World Cups trophy means a lot to everyone, but there is almost a destiny about this one.

South Africa needs inspiration, Rassie realised that, Siya Kolisi in the same number jersey as Francois Pienaar and the iconic moment of him and Madiba holding the cup aloft.

If Siya and President Ramaphosa hold that cup aloft it will show the people of Sa we are slowly getting there

[Taylorman]

I don’t even fear jinxing it. We will win this game. It’s just the logical deduction, not overconfidence.

Ha ha, heard that before.

[dummy_half]

I never expected us to make the final, so throughout the tournament I wasn’t nervous, almost blaze about the tournament, but having gotten this far I have gained some faith in this Bok team lead by Rassie, now I am as sick as a dog.

I know World Cups trophy means a lot to everyone, but there is almost a destiny about this one.

South Africa needs inspiration, Rassie realised that, Siya Kolisi in the same number jersey as Francois Pienaar and the iconic moment of him and Madiba holding the cup aloft.

If Siya and President Ramaphosa hold that cup aloft it will show the people of Sa we are slowly getting there

I think most England fans felt quite similar up to last Saturday - we're a team that is still developing (unlike the 2003 side, which had peaked and only held on through bloody-mindedness), and I think a losing SF against NZ would have been considered a successful tournament given where we have come from in the last year . Obviously, after last week, things have changed and we are now favourites for tomorrow, but I don't think anyone within the England camp will be taking the Boks lightly.

It was interesting at the end of the SF that England didn't go big on the celebration - looked very much like they knew it was half the job done, but they still needed to take care of business this week.

I think if both sides play to their best, England win, and if both play to a 7/10 performance, England still win. However, I'm nervous that we can still throw in a really poor performance, as we did a couple of times in the 6Ns (Wales and half the game v Scotland). Anyway, we'll know soon enough how things go.

One thing I will say is that we have been lucky with injuries and squad depth - only really Mako V and Nowell that have missed matches they might have played in, and Mako's place was somewhat covered by the unretirement of Marler. Also, looking at the squad and player availability, we got Manu T and Watson back from long term injuries and the first choice back row (I think we can call them that now) has been available almost tthroughout. Certainly in a much better position in terms of player fitness and availability than we have been for a long time (always seems to be one position where we are down to 5th or 6th choices)

[Taylorman]

Well everyone’s beating everyone this year. sA by Oz, Oz by NZ, NZ by Ireland, who beat Wales, who beat England and a number of other odd results to throw in.

No one can take anything for granted and a Bok win over England will certainly not be the biggest upset at this tournament.

[lostinwales]

Very easy to go on and on about this particular England side. But it is worthwhile mentioning Watson again. He's come back so well from a particularly hard injury and now looks the complete winger.

[Old Man]

I never expected us to make the final, so throughout the tournament I wasn’t nervous, almost blaze about the tournament, but having gotten this far I have gained some faith in this Bok team lead by Rassie, now I am as sick as a dog.

I know World Cups trophy means a lot to everyone, but there is almost a destiny about this one.

South Africa needs inspiration, Rassie realised that, Siya Kolisi in the same number jersey as Francois Pienaar and the iconic moment of him and Madiba holding the cup aloft.

If Siya and President Ramaphosa hold that cup aloft it will show the people of Sa we are slowly getting there

I think most England fans felt quite similar up to last Saturday - we're a team that is still developing (unlike the 2003 side, which had peaked and only held on through bloody-mindedness), and I think a losing SF against NZ would have been considered a successful tournament given where we have come from in the last year . Obviously, after last week, things have changed and we are now favourites for tomorrow, but I don't think anyone within the England camp will be taking the Boks lightly.

It was interesting at the end of the SF that England didn't go big on the celebration - looked very much like they knew it was half the job done, but they still needed to take care of business this week.

I think if both sides play to their best, England win, and if both play to a 7/10 performance, England still win. However, I'm nervous that we can still throw in a really poor performance, as we did a couple of times in the 6Ns (Wales and half the game v Scotland). Anyway, we'll know soon enough how things go.

One thing I will say is that we have been lucky with injuries and squad depth - only really Mako V and Nowell that have missed matches they might have played in, and Mako's place was somewhat covered by the unretirement of Marler. Also, looking at the squad and player availability, we got Manu T and Watson back from long term injuries and the first choice back row (I think we can call them that now) has been available almost tthroughout. Certainly in a much better position in terms of player fitness and availability than we have been for a long time (always seems to be one position where we are down to 5th or 6th choices)

You are basing your theory on last week’s performance?

Both these sides have been inseparable over their last meetings, both teams have improved, but somehow you believe if both teams paly to their potential England wins?

[Old Man]

Well everyone’s beating everyone this year. sA by Oz,  Oz by NZ, NZ by Ireland, who beat Wales, who beat England and a number of other odd results to throw in.

No one can take anything for granted and a Bok win over England will certainly not be the biggest upset at this tournament.

SA wasn’t beaten by OZ, only by New Zealand.

[dummy_half]

Let's be honest - if you could ever have a situation where every available player is fit, what 15 and 23 would Jones pick?

Certainly 13 of the starting 15 are definite - may still have gone for Hartley over George (although I suspect not given the last season or so), and I wonder if the back 3 may have been rearranged with Watson at 15 and Nowell on a wing (but this option was undermined by Watson's absence last year), with Daly dropping to the bench as utility back cover.

As for the bench, certainly our two next best props, 2nd row (well, any time you are choosing between Kruis and Launchbury for a bench spot, there's some real strength in depth) and versatile back row. Hartley probably would have been picked over LC-D if fit. 2nd scrum half is probably the one position of uncertainty - Care, Heinz, Spencer, A N Other?. Slade and Nowell (or Daly - see above) would probably be the preferred choices for inside and outside utility back replacements.

So jones has probably been able to pick about 20 or 21 of the 23 he would have liked in a perfect world, and quite possibly all the starters - pretty rare that this happens in international rugby.

[majesticimperialman]

Well everyone’s beating everyone this year. sA by Oz,  Oz by NZ, NZ by Ireland, who beat Wales, who beat England and a number of other odd results to throw in.

No one can take anything for granted and a Bok win over England will certainly not be the biggest upset at this tournament.

If you look at both teams. England v NZ and SA v Wales. you would after fancy England no doubt.

But in all honesty this will be no easy win for  England, this is not a given by any stretch of the imagination.
 
This game tomorrow will be one hell Of a dog fight.

And as they say it is not the dog in the fight, it is the fight in the dog that counts.

[dummy_half]

I never expected us to make the final, so throughout the tournament I wasn’t nervous, almost blaze about the tournament, but having gotten this far I have gained some faith in this Bok team lead by Rassie, now I am as sick as a dog.

I know World Cups trophy means a lot to everyone, but there is almost a destiny about this one.

South Africa needs inspiration, Rassie realised that, Siya Kolisi in the same number jersey as Francois Pienaar and the iconic moment of him and Madiba holding the cup aloft.

If Siya and President Ramaphosa hold that cup aloft it will show the people of Sa we are slowly getting there

I think most England fans felt quite similar up to last Saturday - we're a team that is still developing (unlike the 2003 side, which had peaked and only held on through bloody-mindedness), and I think a losing SF against NZ would have been considered a successful tournament given where we have come from in the last year . Obviously, after last week, things have changed and we are now favourites for tomorrow, but I don't think anyone within the England camp will be taking the Boks lightly.

It was interesting at the end of the SF that England didn't go big on the celebration - looked very much like they knew it was half the job done, but they still needed to take care of business this week.

I think if both sides play to their best, England win, and if both play to a 7/10 performance, England still win. However, I'm nervous that we can still throw in a really poor performance, as we did a couple of times in the 6Ns (Wales and half the game v Scotland). Anyway, we'll know soon enough how things go.

One thing I will say is that we have been lucky with injuries and squad depth - only really Mako V and Nowell that have missed matches they might have played in, and Mako's place was somewhat covered by the unretirement of Marler. Also, looking at the squad and player availability, we got Manu T and Watson back from long term injuries and the first choice back row (I think we can call them that now) has been available almost tthroughout. Certainly in a much better position in terms of player fitness and availability than we have been for a long time (always seems to be one position where we are down to 5th or 6th choices)

You are basing your theory on last week’s performance?

Both these sides have been inseparable over their last meetings, both teams have improved, but somehow you believe if both teams paly to their potential England wins?

In part yes, also on the game against Ireland at the start of the last 6Nsid a similar stifling job through aggressive defence. And, as I note in the post above, on the fact that for once England are putting out something remarkably close to their best 'on paper' side - something we have been unable to do probably since the latter stages of RWC 2003, and something which has undermined England's recent 6Ns and AI performances. I accept that this player availability is as much through luck as judgement, and it could be that missing the France game at the group stages has played a part in us not losing a couple of important guys to injury, but this is the sort of luck that you perhaps need to go from a contender to a champion. We'll see soon enough

[Hood83]

I don’t even fear jinxing it. We will win this game. It’s just the logical deduction, not overconfidence.

Ha ha, heard that before.

Every now and again I get a glimpse of how the rest of the world sees us, and I see us in exactly the same way. Why do we do it?

[No 7&1/2]

Worth bearing in mind the last match up was made with less than 5 days training for England. May all go pear shaped tomorrow.

And this was post 666.

[Taylorman]

Well everyone’s beating everyone this year. sA by Oz,  Oz by NZ, NZ by Ireland, who beat Wales, who beat England and a number of other odd results to throw in.

No one can take anything for granted and a Bok win over England will certainly not be the biggest upset at this tournament.

SA wasn’t beaten by OZ, only by New Zealand.

Oh they were all supposed to be bt, not by. SA bt Oz, Oz bt no etc. iPad thinks it knows what to type.

[Old Man]

No worries

[Taylorman]

Well everyone’s beating everyone this year. sA by Oz,  Oz by NZ, NZ by Ireland, who beat Wales, who beat England and a number of other odd results to throw in.

No one can take anything for granted and a Bok win over England will certainly not be the biggest upset at this tournament.

If you look at both teams. England v NZ and SA v Wales. you would after fancy England no doubt.

But in all honesty this will be no easy win for  England, this is not a given by any stretch of the imagination.
 
This game tomorrow will be one hell Of a dog fight.

And as they say it is not the dog in the fight, it is the fight in the dog that counts.

Yeah it’s a World Cup final, where anything can, and has, happened. SA are good enough to win this for sure, and have won ugly, and are underdogs. England haven’t won ugly, and are favourites.

Different mentality vs NZ, where at this point, and as rtf Scotty has already shown, complacency is with them in some way. It’s impossible not to be.

And that’s within reason, they should win...it’s a logical conclusion

[Old Man]

Enjoy before the final.

[Taylorman]

Yep, enjoy. Bring it to three a piece

[Scottrf]

I don’t even fear jinxing it. We will win this game. It’s just the logical deduction, not overconfidence.

Ha ha, heard that before.

Every now and again I get a glimpse of how the rest of the world sees us, and I see us in exactly the same way. Why do we do it?

It’s just truth. If you watch the games, you have to suspend disbelief to imagine anything else.

Anyway, you’re never as good as you look when you’re playing well. And it’s a World Cup final.

[Steffan]

As much as I will be cheering on South Africa I think England should win by about 10-15 points

[RiscaGame]

Save yourself for cheering on the Bluebirds tomorrow.

[Steffan]

Save yourself for cheering on the Bluebirds tomorrow.

True. I don't think the Bluebirds losing will have quite the same consequences as if South Africa lose tomorrow though

[Duty281]

I did expect South Africa to make the final, they had a plumb side of the draw where they were always likely to avoid the fellow heavyweights of England and (certainly avoid) the Kiwis. South Africa will bring a very physical challenge to the equation, but it is one England should be able to match and maybe exceed. Saffers haven't done anything spectacular so far, though they do have the potential to improve.

I didn't expect England to make the final, but they have and are rightly favourites now having played comfortably the best rugby of the tournament. Main worry from an England perspective is that they haven't been properly challenged in this tournament so far. Apart from an opening 15 minutes against Australia, it has been an absolute stroll to this point, which sounds utterly bizarre but there we have it.

It really is 2007 all over again, only with the roles reversed. I expect England's awesome defence and brilliant back row to carry the day, as the sweet chariot lands a second victory.

England by 10.

[Guest]

England undercooked?

[Steffan]

I expected England to make the final for some reason. But maybe with not so much ease. South Africa need to defend well, stop England playing the ball and then show some of that skill that has been in small but efficient batches. Ultimately though I expect them to lose by 10 points

[Steffan]

England undercooked?

Maybe. Hopefully they will get a roasting tomorrow

[Rugby Fan]

It does feel odd to see England so widely tipped to win, when many pre-tournament forecasts had South Africa as at least second favourites to take the Cup. Clearly, the win over New Zealand has change people's perspective on England but finals have often been stand-alone encounters, divorced from any form and momentum shown in previosu rounds.

As Taylorman says, a South African win will hardly be a shock result. We went 10 years and 12 games without a win over the Springboks, which is a longer barren spell than any against New Zealand.

Our two wins over an Erasmus-coached South Africa were against a side which had already won the series against us, where they rang the changes; and that close run affair at Twickenham, with Faf de Klerk watching from the stands.

Arguably, Jones hasn't yet beaten a full-strength Erasmus-coached team. Of couse, he'd never beaten New Zealand with England, so nothing in set in stone.

[Taylorman]

Gaps closing though. All three SH sides have weakened considerably last three years, SA is starting to resemble a return more than the others. We will be a young side again with new leaders, more losses to come while we stage the comeback, which I wouldn’t expect to take long.

SA did have a favourable run since the first match, Japan not able to beat three tier one sides and Wales both injured and rather average as a result, as were SA semi time, England the only side there pointing to champ material.

But it’s a different day, history I’m told goes out the window.

Did like Kilosi’s little vid about growing up, the struggles to even eat etc, so up against the mega Bank of England think I’ll go with the Boks.

[Rugby Fan]

It's lunchtime here. I'm tempted to start boozing but I promised myself a late start, so I'll still be able to function late into the evening. Still six hours to go before kick off, and I've run out of rugby coverage to keep me occupied...

[Taylorman]

Na get on it RF. Start with the lights for a few hours then ramp it up

[Rugby Fan]

I decided to watch GB losing to NZ at league.

[Taylorman]

Oh, we won something finally did we?

[Rugby Fan]

There might be some but I can't recall seeing any English pundit tipping a Springbok win. Similarly, I haven't yet seen a South African pundit tipping England to win.

[Guest]

It's so hard to predict, it really is. I just have a feeling SA will haul themselves in to contention and be within a bounce of the ball or a stroke of fortune in the last 5-8 minutes. It really is impossible to call a winner but I have a feeling they can do it, and my prediction is that they will make this a lot harder work in terms of game management and fall of score than any game England have had to play since Wales in the 6Ns. Probably similar in some ways - expect the Boks to pounce late if they do win it.

The 6 day turnaround doesn't help the Boks, though. But you also wonder if English players who had knocks will both make it, and be able to shake off injuries to the point they aren't playing within themselves. One of the less spoken about elements of the game last week - because England won - was that Farrell was, in some ways, carried through about 60 minutes. That's impressive.

I think I said a 1 point win to SA in the prediction thread and I think I'll stick to that - a 1 point game, but I really don't know who to. Of course it'll likely be a runaway score now...

Let's just hope no refereeing decision or major injury mars the game.

[Gooseberry]

May too was carried through a chunk of the game. Those two only had dead legs ( bruising) smoto theres no reason they should be significantly hampered in this game. Theyve been in full training since midweek.

[Collapse2005]

Gaps closing though. All three SH sides have weakened considerably last three years, SA is starting to resemble a return more than the others. We will be a young side again with new leaders, more losses to come while we stage the comeback, which I wouldn’t expect to take long.

SA did have a favourable run since the first match, Japan not able to beat three tier one sides and Wales both injured and rather average as a result, as were SA semi time, England the only side there pointing to champ material.

But it’s a different day, history I’m told goes out the window.

Did like Kilosi’s little vid about growing up, the struggles to even eat etc, so up against the mega Bank of England think I’ll go with the Boks.

Gap has gone. Ireland were the top side in the world last year. I suspect it will be England this year.

[Taylorman]

Wales and Ireland still can’t handle the big matches. What was Irelands excuse this time? Both have yet to win in NZ in their entire history. Picked three teams to win this and guess where they finished. One, two and three. It’s not gone yet, it’s going, based on flimsy home records and average to poor away records. England is the only side that can match SA and NZ in the big league. Wales and Ireland need to lift their consistency more. They’ve edged out Oz, but not the other two.

[Taylorman]

It's so hard to predict, it really is. I just have a feeling SA will haul themselves in to contention and be within a bounce of the ball or a stroke of fortune in the last 5-8 minutes. It really is impossible to call a winner but I have a feeling they can do it, and my prediction is that they will make this a lot harder work in terms of game management and fall of score than any game England have had to play since Wales in the 6Ns. Probably similar in some ways - expect the Boks to pounce late if they do win it.

The 6 day turnaround doesn't help the Boks, though. But you also wonder if English players who had knocks will both make it, and be able to shake off injuries to the point they aren't playing within themselves. One of the less spoken about elements of the game last week - because England won - was that Farrell was, in some ways, carried through about 60 minutes. That's impressive.

I think I said a 1 point win to SA in the prediction thread and I think I'll stick to that - a 1 point game, but I really don't know who to. Of course it'll likely be a runaway score now...

Let's just hope no refereeing decision or major injury mars the game.

Yeah agree with that, especially the last part. Finals are funny things, the worst thing you can base them on is the semis. End of a long few weeks it’ll be both physically and mentally draining for all concerned, even the officials.

Eddie will need a ‘third’ plan for SA after Oz and NZ where all three play very differently. That’s a big ask.

[Collapse2005]

Wales and Ireland still can’t handle the big matches. What was Irelands excuse this time? Both have yet to win in NZ in their entire history. Picked three teams to win this and guess where they finished. One, two and three. It’s not gone yet, it’s going, based on flimsy home records and average to poor away records. England is the only side that can match SA and NZ in the big league. Wales and Ireland need to lift their consistency more. They’ve edged out Oz, but not the other two.

Whats NZs excuse? They got hammered by England themselves. Top side in the world the last two years has been from the NH (so far).

6 nations has been a stronger tournament for a few years now. Kudos to SA though, really stopped the rot under Rassie.

[Guest]

Wales and Ireland still can’t handle the big matches. What was Irelands excuse this time? Both have yet to win in NZ in their entire history. Picked three teams to win this and guess where they finished. One, two and three. It’s not gone yet, it’s going, based on flimsy home records and average to poor away records. England is the only side that can match SA and NZ in the big league. Wales and Ireland need to lift their consistency more. They’ve edged out Oz, but not the other two.

You're using 'big matches' as 'games v NZ in this RWC' though. Wales have a great record at big matches, just less so against the SH teams. That changed over the last 4-6 years but they were a drop goal going a few yards wide away from the final while decimated from injury. They would have taken 2 of the 3 big SH scalps to get there had they managed it as well.

Ireland showed they were world class when they targeted the opposition. Their failings were several, but probably held on to too many players when out of form/too old than anyone else.

Ultimately, NZ have showed no better inclination at handling the big matches apart from a golden 4 year period between 2011 and 2015. They failed to win the Lions Tour in 2017 and failed again this year in Japan. Are you really going to start making grand claims on the back of that, other than those facts indicating solely what they indicate - that they got those specific instances wrong, and the reasons for that relate to planning, naivety, tactical approach etc. The England game is clear, there - naivety from kick off punished them with a try, and they continued to play naive rugby - the kind you'd expect from Australia.

Ireland showed they can match NZ. It's 2-2 in the last 4 games. Yep, they got the RWC season wrong as clearly the England game set something in motion that led to them limping through Japan. But had they adapted and Schmid dealt with that, Ireland would have topped their group and possibly be in a RWC final right now.

Wales, again, suffered with injuries pre and mid tournament. Hampered by a small playing pool and lack of depth, we've never shown inclination of beating NZ, but NZ aren't the only 'big match'. Wales could 'easily' have won this tournament had even half their injured players stayed fit, as they were so close to the final as it is.

This is Monday Morning Quarterbacking, T. It's either not saying much more than England, SA, and NZ are the best countries in the world - which is unsurprising, as they should be, along with France and Australia. But in terms of specifics of each team - it's way off.

[Taylorman]

There was no top side last year. That’s your opinion. Should England win, then yes they’re the top side for 2019, world champs are always the top side. But if the lose, they’re not, SA are.

Last year, NZ were RC champs, and no. 1 ranked. Can’t recall who 6 N champs were, but that doesn’t make them no. 1. Other than in your opinion that is.

[Taylorman]

Wales and Ireland still can’t handle the big matches. What was Irelands excuse this time? Both have yet to win in NZ in their entire history. Picked three teams to win this and guess where they finished. One, two and three. It’s not gone yet, it’s going, based on flimsy home records and average to poor away records. England is the only side that can match SA and NZ in the big league. Wales and Ireland need to lift their consistency more. They’ve edged out Oz, but not the other two.

You're using 'big matches' as 'games v NZ in this RWC' though. Wales have a great record at big matches, just less so against the SH teams. That changed over the last 4-6 years but they were a drop goal going a few yards wide away from the final while decimated from injury. They would have taken 2 of the 3 big SH scalps to get there had they managed it as well.

Ireland showed they were world class when they targeted the opposition. Their failings were several, but probably held on to too many players when out of form/too old than anyone else.

Ultimately, NZ have showed no better inclination at handling the big matches apart from a golden 4 year period between 2011 and 2015. They failed to win the Lions Tour in 2017 and failed again this year in Japan. Are you really going to start making grand claims on the back of that, other than those facts indicating solely what they indicate - that they got those specific instances wrong, and the reasons for that relate to planning, naivety, tactical approach etc. The England game is clear, there - naivety from kick off punished them with a try, and they continued to play naive rugby - the kind you'd expect from Australia.

Ireland showed they can match NZ. It's 2-2 in the last 4 games. Yep, they got the RWC season wrong as clearly the England game set something in motion that led to them limping through Japan. But had they adapted and Schmid dealt with that, Ireland would have topped their group and possibly be in a RWC final right now.

Wales, again, suffered with injuries pre and mid tournament. Hampered by a small playing pool and lack of depth, we've never shown inclination of beating NZ, but NZ aren't the only 'big match'. Wales could 'easily' have won this tournament had even half their injured players stayed fit, as they were so close to the final as it is.

This is Monday Morning Quarterbacking, T. It's either not saying much more than England, SA, and NZ are the best countries in the world - which is unsurprising, as they should be, along with France and Australia. But in terms of specifics of each team - it's way off.

Irelands ‘matching us’ are all away for us. Three were home. They’ll match us, as will Wales, when they stop getting thrashed in NZ. Right now, neither would get close in a series in NZ. England would.

[Taylorman]

Anyway, now that’s sorted on with the main event. Come on South Africa! Good luck biltong, come and join the three club!

[Guest]

Yes, it is. And I know there are lots of Irish in the USA, but just because it's the NH, not sure it counts as Ireland being at 'home'...

[Taylorman]

Durr, I said all were away for us, three were in Ireland. Doesn’t take a lot of working out does it? And, none were World Cup...and look what happened when it was.

Only England from the NH came knowing what to expect. Wales can probably justify some of it with injury impact, but Ireland? Nah. Did the same they always have. Same players different beat, World Cup time. Told guns last year when they won, you’ll be judged by the World Cup. As were we.

[Collapse2005]

Wales and Ireland still can’t handle the big matches. What was Irelands excuse this time? Both have yet to win in NZ in their entire history. Picked three teams to win this and guess where they finished. One, two and three. It’s not gone yet, it’s going, based on flimsy home records and average to poor away records. England is the only side that can match SA and NZ in the big league. Wales and Ireland need to lift their consistency more. They’ve edged out Oz, but not the other two.

You're using 'big matches' as 'games v NZ in this RWC' though. Wales have a great record at big matches, just less so against the SH teams. That changed over the last 4-6 years but they were a drop goal going a few yards wide away from the final while decimated from injury. They would have taken 2 of the 3 big SH scalps to get there had they managed it as well.

Ireland showed they were world class when they targeted the opposition. Their failings were several, but probably held on to too many players when out of form/too old than anyone else.

Ultimately, NZ have showed no better inclination at handling the big matches apart from a golden 4 year period between 2011 and 2015. They failed to win the Lions Tour in 2017 and failed again this year in Japan. Are you really going to start making grand claims on the back of that, other than those facts indicating solely what they indicate - that they got those specific instances wrong, and the reasons for that relate to planning, naivety, tactical approach etc. The England game is clear, there - naivety from kick off punished them with a try, and they continued to play naive rugby - the kind you'd expect from Australia.

Ireland showed they can match NZ. It's 2-2 in the last 4 games. Yep, they got the RWC season wrong as clearly the England game set something in motion that led to them limping through Japan. But had they adapted and Schmid dealt with that, Ireland would have topped their group and possibly be in a RWC final right now.

Wales, again, suffered with injuries pre and mid tournament. Hampered by a small playing pool and lack of depth, we've never shown inclination of beating NZ, but NZ aren't the only 'big match'. Wales could 'easily' have won this tournament had even half their injured players stayed fit, as they were so close to the final as it is.

This is Monday Morning Quarterbacking, T. It's either not saying much more than England, SA, and NZ are the best countries in the world - which is unsurprising, as they should be, along with France and Australia. But in terms of specifics of each team - it's way off.

Irelands ‘matching us’ are all away for us. Three were home. They’ll match us, as will Wales, when they stop getting thrashed in NZ. Right now, neither would get close in a series in NZ. England would.

Ireland were better than NZ last year Taylorman. Thats what the record books show by every metric. Not this year though but England definitely are.

NZ peaked two years too early in 2017, Ireland 18 and England now. SA might have something to say about that but that would run against form.

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