The New Zealand All Blacks Thread - post RWC & 2020 season.

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

A thread to discuss all things NZ and All Blacks.

[Guest]

[SecretFly]

I actually think that Stuart Lancaster would be the ideal coach for the All Blacks...

I all ways thought the head coach for the All Blacks, (HAD) to be a kiwi.

Rules is meant to be broken, as Eddie Jones would say.

[Guest]

Hard to argue with that

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/117690839/sam-warburton-snubs-richie-mccaw-and-dan-carter-in-best-international-team#comments

[Gooseberry]

I actually think that Stuart Lancaster would be the ideal coach for the All Blacks...

I all ways thought the head coach for the All Blacks, (HAD) to be a kiwi.

Rules is meant to be broken, as Eddie Jones would say.

Thats not going to wash with a teacher SF

[Gooseberry]

Hard to argue with that

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/117690839/sam-warburton-snubs-richie-mccaw-and-dan-carter-in-best-international-team#comments

No token Scotland player then? (Oh wait yes there he is...Hogg in the reserves as always)

[SecretFly]

I actually think that Stuart Lancaster would be the ideal coach for the All Blacks...

I all ways thought the head coach for the All Blacks, (HAD) to be a kiwi.

Rules is meant to be broken, as Eddie Jones would say.

Thats not going to wash with a teacher SF

Is majestic a teacher?

[majesticimperialman]

I actually think that Stuart Lancaster would be the ideal coach for the All Blacks...

I all ways thought the head coach for the All Blacks, (HAD) to be a kiwi.

Rules is meant to be broken, as Eddie Jones would say.

Thats not going to wash with a teacher SF

Is majestic a teacher?

No.

[Gooseberry]

Lancaster was ...never mind

[SecretFly]

Lancaster was ...never mind

Ain't they all?

Lancaster, Jones, Gatland, Schmidt, Rennie......

[Taylorman]

Hard to argue with that

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/117690839/sam-warburton-snubs-richie-mccaw-and-dan-carter-in-best-international-team#comments

No token Scotland player then? (Oh wait yes there he is...Hogg in the reserves as always)

It’s a bit of an odd team, the thing standing out for me is the Folau can do anything comment. He can run ball in hand, he’s the best under the high ball but that’s about it. He’s positionally not good defensively, often caught missing. His tackling, when he gets to is average and his passing skills are average, a good thing in he’s usually finishing. His captaincy ability is non existent despite being part of his case for more bucks.

He’ll probably blame every natural disaster on his losing the case if that happens. It’s getting almost Trump like where he can say anything he wants and expect to be taken seriously.

[Guest]

Ian Foster gets the New Zealand All Blacks job, as expected.

I'd put money on Gatland being next in line, with Robertson getting some time overseas in the interim to give him a shot as the eventual successor.

Good call by NZRU. Were aware that there was too much myopia and self-assurance of their own systems in the last 4 years. Failure to win the Lions tour on their own turf as Hansen handed out debuts to players in the test matches, all in the name of the 'machine', led to too much rigidity with DMac/Barrett being the 'difference' that meant they'd run everyone other team off the pitch in Japan. Didn't work. Needless to say there are many aspects of the world and northern game that has surpassed NZ - not in the players' skills, that's not up for debate, but in preparation, clearly. The Ireland and England games were a clear example that Hansen had got NH rugby all wrong. Robertson probably wasn't ready, and while I think Gatland - ironically - could have walked in to the job had he not got the Lions and Chiefs lined up (who would have thought that 12 months ago - probably no one), it makes sense for him to wait and re-learn NZ rugby, as it would make sense for Robertson to get overseas coaching as well, or even a stint with someone like Ireland if Gatland does replace Foster.

More of the same though with this appointment, on the face of it. Something tells me it won't be though. The media seems to already be on him and I imagine his choice of assistants will be key and telling.

"Ian Foster is set to name a coaching group with "youth, overseas experience and hardness"." - https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12292957

[No 7&1/2]

I thought you were against promoting coaches from within.

[Collapse2005]

It was fairly expected that Foster would get the job albeit I'm not really convinced by him. Think he won a couple of Super Rugby titles with the Chiefs but aside from that doesn't strike me as the best candidate for the job. Mind you neither did Henry nor Hansen when they were appointed.

It will be interesting to see how he gets on. Plenty of good players at his disposal but will need to make some changes for sure. Good luck to him.

[LordDowlais]

Let's be honest, whoever coaches New Zealand has the sweetest job in the world. The players they have, you could put a donkey in charge, and he would win 9 games out of 10.

The only time the pressure is on, is when the world cup comes around and you are expected to win it. Which happens more often than not.

Being in charge of the All Blacks is like winning the lottery.

[Guest]

I'm sure that made sense in your head.

[Taylorman]

Let's be honest, whoever coaches New Zealand has the sweetest job in the world. The players they have, you could put a donkey in charge, and he would win 9 games out of 10.

The only time the pressure is on, is when the world cup comes around and you are expected to win it. Which happens more often than not.

Being in charge of the All Blacks is like winning the lottery.  

You could put it that way, or you could just say everyone else is hopeless.

[Guest]

You can start saying that again when you're world champions and weren't battered in the rugby world cup and failed to win a Lions tour on home turf.

So at least a few years...

[Old Man]

It was fairly expected that Foster would get the job albeit I'm not really convinced by him. Think he won a couple of Super Rugby titles with the Chiefs but aside from that doesn't strike me as the best candidate for the job. Mind you neither did Henry nor Hansen when they were appointed.

It will be interesting to see how he gets on. Plenty of good players at his disposal but will need to make some changes for sure. Good luck to him.

Nope, no Super Rugby titles in the seven years he coached the Chiefs.

[Taylorman]

Yes that’s the glaring thing for me. No Super titles in seven seasons at the Chiefs and they were poor as well, often finishing down the order of the five sides.

It’s difficult to judge a coach when it’s often about his cattle as well, but Rennie and Razor managed to turn things around immediately and win first attempt. Fosters definitely seen as a ‘safe’ selection here where many of us thing the time is right for new directions, not trying to keep holding on to the old.

[Taylorman]

You can start saying that again when you're world champions and weren't battered in the rugby world cup and failed to win a Lions tour on home turf.

So at least a few years...

I see the Lions drawn series as a failed Lions tour. If the best of four countries, one that is WCup runner up, another two that have been rated no. 1 within two years of that tour can’t between them muster a side capable of beating one side is complete and utter failure.

If the four SANZAAR countries were to select a side to compete in three tests vs Wales you would, in all honesty, need ambulances nearby to cart the Welsh players to hospital.

[Guest]

You can start saying that again when you're world champions and weren't battered in the rugby world cup and failed to win a Lions tour on home turf.

So at least a few years...

I see the Lions drawn series as a failed Lions tour. If the best of four countries, one that is WCup runner up, another two that have been rated no. 1 within two years of that tour can’t between them muster a side capable of beating one side is complete and utter failure.

If the four SANZAAR countries were to select a side to compete in three tests vs Wales you would, in all honesty, need ambulances nearby to cart the Welsh players to hospital.

You say that, but I’ve seen many BaaBaas teams chocked full of the best players in the world (back when the BaaBaas selected better players) struggle against lowly teams like Wales, Ireland, etc.  Putting together a scratch team and getting them to perform against much more settled international sides with established core players, established coaching and plays, is a lot harder than you think.  The ABs had a core of players in that series that had been together for years, they had Hansen and Foster who had been in charge for years, they had established plays that the players were familiar with and comfortable with, and they were playing at home.  The Lions, a side put together with a few weeks notice, and picked from nations traditionally and consistently ranked lower in the World Rankings than New Zealand, were playing away from home and needed to pick up new plays, patterns, combinations (for the majority of the players) with just a couple of games practice.  I’d say given all that, any failure to win is on the part of the home team really.

[Taylorman]

You can start saying that again when you're world champions and weren't battered in the rugby world cup and failed to win a Lions tour on home turf.

So at least a few years...

I see the Lions drawn series as a failed Lions tour. If the best of four countries, one that is WCup runner up, another two that have been rated no. 1 within two years of that tour can’t between them muster a side capable of beating one side is complete and utter failure.

If the four SANZAAR countries were to select a side to compete in three tests vs Wales you would, in all honesty, need ambulances nearby to cart the Welsh players to hospital.

You say that, but I’ve seen many BaaBaas teams chocked full of the best players in the world (back when the BaaBaas selected better players) struggle against lowly teams like Wales, Ireland, etc.  Putting together a scratch team and getting them to perform against much more settled international sides with established core players, established coaching and plays, is a lot harder than you think.  The ABs had a core of players in that series that had been together for years, they had Hansen and Foster who had been in charge for years, they had established plays that the players were familiar with and comfortable with, and they were playing at home.  The Lions, a side put together with a few weeks notice, and picked from nations traditionally and consistently ranked lower in the World Rankings than New Zealand, were playing away from home and needed to pick up new plays, patterns, combinations (for the majority of the players) with just a couple of games practice.  I’d say given all that, any failure to win is on the part of the home team really.

You can’t equate Baabaas teams to fully fledged Lions tours which have far greater resourcing, prep and lead in times. Baabaas sides get a week at most before a match, no lead up matches, are selected on availability not strength of player as the Lions are, far less prep and most are generally playing together for the first time. ‘A few weeks’ together should be ample with the lead up matches thrown in. The fact that they have not ALL played together (some have) is a minus but that should easily be negated by the wider selection availability...easily.

[Guest]

You can start saying that again when you're world champions and weren't battered in the rugby world cup and failed to win a Lions tour on home turf.

So at least a few years...

I see the Lions drawn series as a failed Lions tour. If the best of four countries, one that is WCup runner up, another two that have been rated no. 1 within two years of that tour can’t between them muster a side capable of beating one side is complete and utter failure.

If the four SANZAAR countries were to select a side to compete in three tests vs Wales you would, in all honesty, need ambulances nearby to cart the Welsh players to hospital.

Of course you would see it that way, because you're a diehard Kiwi nationalist. Almost everyone else will see it as it really is.

Are you laughing at the idea of players being injured and possibly disabled playing rugby? That's lower than lower if you are. Disgraceful and not in the spirit of rugby - as if we needed reminding that you're not a real rugby fan, and have 'other' motives...

[Guest]

Also, the All Blacks are already halfway to being an combination side in its own right. Stop picking Polynesian players then see how you get on...yeah, wouldn't go too well, would it...

Even discounting the Republic of Ireland, if the United Kingdom rugby team were a constant - and perish the thought what that would mean if it were - they'd probably be near enough the best team in the world semi-regularly. If the British Isles combined with France, Italy, and the rest of Europe, which is getting closer to the equivalent of a combined SANZAR team, but would arguably be fairer to include North America as well to truly reflect adding SA to Australasia, then we'd probaby batter you.

Your continued confidence and obsession with the North v South thing seems hampered by a severe lack of geographical and cultural knowledge. Perhaps you could learn a bit before giving your opinions - I mean, the other thread got locked because you flipped your sheet when I quite calmly told you the crux of your argument about the disparity between the north and south was literally incorrect.

You should stick on topic and not see a discussion about the new ABs coach as an excuse to try and bait NH posters. It's weird and sad. Calling someone 'hopeless' is, quite literally, a stupid thing to do when your team has failed twice on the biggest stage despite being overwhelming favourites to win, twice. Bizarre overconfidence from you...

[Taylorman]

Boy, now there’s someone with zero sense of humour. Hook, line and...

[Guest]

Yeah, you're an absolute barrel of laughs...the same nationalist 'joke' told over and over again loses its appeal after about the 10th time. We've got quite enough of that within our own shores and, frankly, we do nationalism a fair bit better.

Talk abou the coach. You've got your own thread now. No need to go off topic. Question why NZ do not trust Robertson enough so have settled for the only experienced option. Worrying times ahead. Looks like you'll end up with Gatland in a couple of years. Would love to see what you were writing about him 2 years ago ahahahahaaaaahhhaaa...

[mikey_dragon]

You can start saying that again when you're world champions and weren't battered in the rugby world cup and failed to win a Lions tour on home turf.

So at least a few years...

I see the Lions drawn series as a failed Lions tour. If the best of four countries, one that is WCup runner up, another two that have been rated no. 1 within two years of that tour can’t between them muster a side capable of beating one side is complete and utter failure.

If the four SANZAAR countries were to select a side to compete in three tests vs Wales you would, in all honesty, need ambulances nearby to cart the Welsh players to hospital.

You say that, but I’ve seen many BaaBaas teams chocked full of the best players in the world (back when the BaaBaas selected better players) struggle against lowly teams like Wales, Ireland, etc.  Putting together a scratch team and getting them to perform against much more settled international sides with established core players, established coaching and plays, is a lot harder than you think.  The ABs had a core of players in that series that had been together for years, they had Hansen and Foster who had been in charge for years, they had established plays that the players were familiar with and comfortable with, and they were playing at home.  The Lions, a side put together with a few weeks notice, and picked from nations traditionally and consistently ranked lower in the World Rankings than New Zealand, were playing away from home and needed to pick up new plays, patterns, combinations (for the majority of the players) with just a couple of games practice.  I’d say given all that, any failure to win is on the part of the home team really.

You can’t equate Baabaas teams to fully fledged Lions tours which have far greater resourcing, prep and lead in times. Baabaas sides get a week at most before a match, no lead up matches, are selected on availability not strength of player as the Lions are,  far less prep and most are generally playing together for the first time. ‘A few weeks’ together should be ample with the lead up matches thrown in. The fact that they have not ALL played together (some have) is a minus but that should easily be negated by the wider selection availability...easily.

Baa-baa's have beaten the All Blacks.....

[Taylorman]

Yeah,in 1973 when they actually knew how to play. One of the best matches of all time. Pity Wales in their greatest era couldn’t pip them.

[mikey_dragon]

No it was more recent than that, actually in this century .

[Guest]

Shame NZ had to cheat to beat Wales. Doesn't work in the age of the all-seeing (well, mostly) TMOs - that's why NZ are finally getting handed red cards for foul play, although they still got away with it against SA.

[Guest]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50740245

[Rugby Fan]

Choosing a new coach is still informed guesswork to a large extent. Beyond looking at results, it's hard to know how to judge whether a coach is doing well. Dan Biggar recently said Chris Boyd is the best coach he has ever worked with, and yet a number of players swear by Gatland.

Any reason why Robbie Deans was never really mentioned as a contender for the NZ job? I'm a bit surprised he never got tapped up again for an international post. At 60, he's probably too long in the tooth now for some, given the time he's been out of Test rugby. However, he he was 55 when he left Australia, which is youger than Gatland today, and the same age as Jones when he was appointed to England.

There's a real reluctance to trust people after perceived failure, which makes the decision of Leinster and Ireland to employ Lancaster and Farrell refreshing.

[Guest]

Burnt his bridges going to Australia. NZers seem to be a bit militant when it comes to loyalty to the black shirt, even if Deans did everything right domestically and wasn't given a shot. Deserves to be back in top level coaching. He was Gatland's assistant with the barbarians the other week.

Your point about Ireland is a decent one, but I'd actually look at Ireland as the perfect job for Deans.

[mikey_dragon]

I'm sure Deans has a better record with 'saders than Robertson. I am surprised he didn't stay in coaching post-Aus, maybe he had enough by then. The kiwi fans and media behaved abhorrently towards him whilst he was Wallabies coach, as did the Aussie. With that in mind it's surprising to see Rennie go down the same route.

[Brendan]

NZ coaching appointments seem to be the suits keeping control.

Robertson is by far a better coach but having his success means the suits would have to make concessions to hirer him.  You would assume that he will be turning up at a club in Europe.  Tigers buying him out of his Super Rugby contract could be money well spent.

[Taylorman]

Shame NZ had to cheat to beat Wales. Doesn't work in the age of the all-seeing (well, mostly) TMOs - that's why NZ are finally getting handed red cards for foul play, although they still got away with it against SA.

Aww, still suffering...

[Taylorman]

NZ coaching appointments seem to be the suits keeping control.

Robertson is by far a better coach but having his success means the suits would have to make concessions to hirer him.  You would assume that he will be turning up at a club in Europe.  Tigers buying him out of his Super Rugby contract could be money well spent.

Yeah that’s the thinking. The two year only thing might be a way of keeping Razor here but overseas might tempt, though he’s such a passionate kiwi he’ll have to accept some personal challenges to leave, though no one would blame him.

[Brendan]

Tman what would be considered an acceptable achievement in the two years to justify an extension.

Would one RC be enough or would it need to be two.

[mikey_dragon]

The trouble with a 2 year contract is that Gatland's Chiefs contract is 4 .

[Gooseberry]

The trouble with a 2 year contract is that Gatland's Chiefs contract is 4 .

Does that mean he has a spare year before the 2025 Lions?

[Gooseberry]

Tman what would be considered an acceptable achievement in the two years to justify an extension.

Would one RC be enough or would it need to be two.

Beating Wales?

[mikey_dragon]

You have to assume that Gatland will win silverware with Chiefs during this period, it's a world class squad and Retallick will probably be back at some point I'm guessing. One SR title and a series win in SA should seal the deal, but that tour to SA looks more difficult now that it did last year.

[Taylorman]

Tman what would be considered an acceptable achievement in the two years to justify an extension.

Would one RC be enough or would it need to be two.

Two minimum. Since it started in 2012 we’ve only lost the shortened versions in World Cup years...2015 and 2019 when we only had the one match, and bar 2014 they’ve all been won easily.

With all three having to play here as well as at home that makes it tougher to win. In 2015 Oz got both SA and NZ in Oz, somewhat of an advantage. In 2019 we’ll, SA were just too good anyway, even though they drew here.

Foster has some very high standards to meet in that respect, and we still expect the side to get stronger, not weaker, or remain the same. That’s one of the advantages of having Razor remain at the Saders, we still get a top performing side pushing players through.

[Taylorman]

Looks like the Scarlets coach is headed back to NZ to support Foster. Don’t know a lot about him but odd with only four months into a three year contract. Oh well, gotta do what ya gotta do.

[Rugby Fan]

It's always a risk when a World Cup finishes. Eddie Jones was set to join the Stormers, and Steve Borthwick hook up with Bristol when England came calling. It does leave clubs in the lurch.

[Taylorman]

Yes we know that feeling. Good to see it going the other way for a change.

[Guest]

We train them for you! You’re welcome

[Taylorman]

For four months? Hmmm, have my doubts about this one. Just glad Fozzies only got two years.

[mikey_dragon]

Brad will have been there for a year when he leaves. Scarlets will be okay with the decision so long as you send Razor as a replacement, he needs an overseas stint anyway . Remembering Pivac and now looking at Mooar, I think teams in Wales are best suited to a kiwi coach. They get the best out of our local and young guys for sure.

[Taylorman]

Razor says he’s not going to immediately start looking overseas though demand couldn’t be better for him now probably so who knows. What we do lose is his momentum where we are now asking him to stay ‘doing what he’s been doing’ until he’s needed, not the best way to keep a top coach where you need him these days.

The plus for us is his passion for things Saders/ NZ where as player or coach that’s all he’s known and loved. Whether his skateboarding/ breakdancing etc approach and style would work overseas for him is another thing entirely.

Rennie with Oz will start to concern with him now picking up one of Eddies team, where far more structure, particularly on defence will be added. It’s getting to be a weird sport for us where we keep playing NZ coached sides wherever we turn it seems. Don’t know if that’s good for the international game overall, our Super rugby coaches getting morphed into overseas sides the world over.

Surprised France haven’t come knocking yet.

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