The New Zealand All Blacks Thread - post RWC & 2020 season.

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

A thread to discuss all things NZ and All Blacks.

[Guest]

Hope so LT. Hes obviously a good coach but for me a terrible selector. Gets away with it for wales as theres much less choice but reckon that would be the thing that did for him in either england or New Zealand posts.

Would you agree that Eddie Jones made a terrible selection error in the 12 months prior to the RWC in the 9 position and, less obviously, at 15? That when the final came round he had no one to turn to because he only had one back up who got injured?

Or, to keep it on topic, that Hansen made terrible selections from 12-14, and perhaps even 15, once DMac got injured and he persisted rigidly with the 2 playmaker system, and their 3/4s played a bit part in England winning the semi final.

Would you say Cheika made terrible selections chopping and changing his backline, selecting Beale at 15, a different 10 each game etc.

I'll be honest, I don't see Gatland as particularly 'poor' in that sense when compared to others. Fans and journalists want to see the likes of Cipriani irrespective of whether they're good enough. Gatland seems to be the ultimate 'prove your worth' type coach. I don't see him as any worse than any other top coach, particularly when it matters, even if he does favour certain types of players in certain positions. But then who doesn't? Which is my point. I don't think that will prevent him from being successful with the Chiefs or possible the ABs, as it hasn't with the Lions (despite the ire of journalists and/or Scots and Irish - the proof is in the pud pud).

Gatland knows he wouldn't have won the HC position ahead of Foster and Robertson, the only two serious candidates. There's an outside shot for Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown to come in on the back of the RWC, and an even bigger outside shot for Dave Rennie who is much more likely to have used the media to make sure Australia add a bit more money and/or hurry up and hire him. But Gatland knows he stands an excellent chance in 4 years time if it does go to Foster, or to Robertson and he makes a mess of it. All his supposed weaknesses will be ironed out at the Chiefs, and he knows he'll live and die by how well he gets on there - he won't have to wiin Super Rubgy, but the play offs and/or a final or two would be pretty much necessities, alongside pushing SA all the way or beating them with the Lions. But perhaps the obvious part that's being overlooked is Gatland's been out of NZ for basically 15 years. It's a chance for him to learn on the job again, develop, change, get back in to the flow of what matters in NZ, learn about Kiwi rugby, find some Kiwi assistants and develop and apply his gameplan. For me, I think he had lost his hunger towards the end with Wales and, particularly once Howley left, there wasn't enough fight in the side...because he's a Kiwi, and he obviously wants the ABs job to cap off what has been a really incredible career. He knew a SF or a final would be seen as relative success back in NZ even if the rugby wasn't great. Beating Oz was a good sign, and in the end, given how his side pushed the eventual winners, and Hansen's team buckled, NZRU might be looking for a bit more Gatland-esque pragmatism in their set up.

[Taylorman]

At risk of agreeing with Taylorman...
Englands record in the U20s world cup has been as good as anyones, last year was the first time they've finished outside the top two since 2013 and they have 3 seconds and a third in the ones prior to that. 
1 final, one group stage, one quarter final in that era. 

SA and NZ have been much better at translating young talent into world cup winners. Although NZ had a rare blip in world cups "only" reaching the semi final they were the dominant side in the world only two years ago. 

It does look like we have entered a period where there will be more competition for them in the RC than there had been for a number of years, but that should drive them to get better and demand more from their players. England and SA are both well placed to keep pressuring NZ, but whilst it might be a bit more competitive than things felt 4 years ago I dont buy that the wheels have fallen off  the All Blacks altogether.

Not sure anyone is saying the wheels have fallen off, but I have seen a number of articles stating that players coming through the system at the moment are not as good as in the past. It is correct not too put too much emphasis on the U20's performances in a one off competition, but that the number of players coming through that pathway into super rugby has declined. Any weakness in that pipeline only becomes really apparent about 8 years later when you are expecting the guys in their late 20s to be the core of the team.

NZ were an ageing team in 2015 and there is a lot of experience heading out of the door now too. The All Blacks will cope, but the job for the new coach will not be an easy one.

Yeah I guess that thinking is the type of negativity NZ just doesn’t bother with. Everything’s in front of this team and we have zero doubt NZ will get back to a dominant position. We see this sort of comment every time there’s a low, where only weeks earlier they’re ‘another level’.

This tournament will probably define this squad, and part but certainly not all, of Hansen’s coaching career but to think there won’t be talent coming through as previously is simply absurd. Unlike everyone we produce first and foremost players that excel through fitness and skill, and that alone sees most of our success. Test rugby is currently based on strategic ‘gimmicks’ and reluctance to play the game rather than genuine skills.

Ireland base their entire game plan on ‘not playing’. Well, I’d say they’ve finally achieved that goal. England spent two years trying to beat one side. Hard to stop that but as Gats said ‘look at the emotional cost’ of that win. They fell apart completely. Single effort ‘gimmick’ exposed.  I’ve heard commentary here that this or that coach doesn’t allow...’offloads’...I mean that must be one of the dumbest, most negative mindsets of the modern game I’ve heard.  I mean what’s happening at the lower levels in the game if that’s what’s being preached at the top. ‘Hey son, we don’t offload in Irish rugby, so you won’t be doing that rubbish here, watch the test side.’

And under Farrell as head coach, a coach who more than any other in the modern game is known as the defence guru, the rush defence king, and if he were to google himself in any southern commentary, that’s what he’ll find. So He’ll be driven by that as his mantle. Don’t expect Ireland to be throwing the ball wide any year soon, it won’t fit what everyone is telling a Farrell that he’s good at.

The north delve in a negativity that is beyond even the most basic of intentions...to run with the ball and have fun.

We’ve just had years of our youth aspiring to players like McCaw, Read, Carter etc etc, an entire generation or two have been showed, on the back door stop, how this game should be played.

These players will come through, in bigger numbers than ever. They might be scalped, they might not win the under 20s, but through our secondary, ITM and Super rugby processes, they will be, again, the best players in the game.

And part of that is because of a large number of others don’t bother to.

[No 7&1/2]

Sorry got bored reading you after 2 words miaow. May try again after a few coffees tomorrow.

[Guest]

Thanks for telling us, 7.5. Really glad you shared. Maybe cut down on the caffeine though. Psychoactive drugs tend to lead to big dips in concentration and energy. By all accounts you've been on a good, hmmm, 7 year dip...

[Taylorman]

Hope so LT. Hes obviously a good coach but for me a terrible selector. Gets away with it for wales as theres much less choice but reckon that would be the thing that did for him in either england or New Zealand posts.

Would you agree that Eddie Jones made a terrible selection error in the 12 months prior to the RWC in the 9 position and, less obviously, at 15? That when the final came round he had no one to turn to because he only had one back up who got injured?

Or, to keep it on topic, that Hansen made terrible selections from 12-14, and perhaps even 15, once DMac got injured and he persisted rigidly with the 2 playmaker system, and their 3/4s played a bit part in England winning the semi final.

Would you say Cheika made terrible selections chopping and changing his backline, selecting Beale at 15, a different 10 each game etc.

I'll be honest, I don't see Gatland as particularly 'poor' in that sense when compared to others. Fans and journalists want to see the likes of Cipriani irrespective of whether they're good enough. Gatland seems to be the ultimate 'prove your worth' type coach. I don't see him as any worse than any other top coach, particularly when it matters, even if he does favour certain types of players in certain positions. But then who doesn't? Which is my point. I don't think that will prevent him from being successful with the Chiefs or possible the ABs, as it hasn't with the Lions (despite the ire of journalists and/or Scots and Irish - the proof is in the pud pud).

Gatland knows he wouldn't have won the HC position ahead of Foster and Robertson, the only two serious candidates. There's an outside shot for Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown to come in on the back of the RWC, and an even bigger outside shot for Dave Rennie who is much more likely to have used the media to make sure Australia add a bit more money and/or hurry up and hire him. But Gatland knows he stands an excellent chance in 4 years time if it does go to Foster, or to Robertson and he makes a mess of it. All his supposed weaknesses will be ironed out at the Chiefs, and he knows he'll live and die by how well he gets on there - he won't have to wiin Super Rubgy, but the play offs and/or a final or two would be pretty much necessities, alongside pushing SA all the way or beating them with the Lions. But perhaps the obvious part that's being overlooked is Gatland's been out of NZ for basically 15 years. It's a chance for him to learn on the job again, develop, change, get back in to the flow of what matters in NZ, learn about Kiwi rugby, find some Kiwi assistants and develop and apply his gameplan. For me, I think he had lost his hunger towards the end with Wales and, particularly once Howley left, there wasn't enough fight in the side...because he's a Kiwi, and he obviously wants the ABs job to cap off what has been a really incredible career. He knew a SF or a final would be seen as relative success back in NZ even if the rugby wasn't great. Beating Oz was a good sign, and in the end, given how his side pushed the eventual winners, and Hansen's team buckled, NZRU might be looking for a bit more Gatland-esque pragmatism in their set up.

Yep, agree with that, and your likely choices, though Foz has hit a bit of a wall, where continuity, a key since 2007, could finally give way to a need for fresh blood. For his interview he will be the only one that has to explain what happened and more importantly how the good from the era can be retained, the bad removed, and the new incorporated. He'll need a strong team, and a strong case, and the feeling daily is that he's losing ground.

Thinking is starting to gather here that the further we get away from the Henry, Wayne Smith, Hansen set up the more we are moving away from the core basis of that success.

Gats has probably done the right thing settling back in to start again for exactly the reasons you mention. He could well be AB coach then, and with four years at the Chiefs, another Lions tour, which will be very tough, on top of what he already has, if hes largely successful, and that means he will have to win the Super title at some point, who wouldnt want him.

[mikey_dragon]

Looking at the squad that Chiefs will have, it's very realistic to suggest that Chiefs will pick up a super rugby title or two during Gatland's tenure. Only then would he be considered for the top job (All Blacks).

[Taylorman]

Yeah its certainly better than my Blues side, the worst lineup Ive seen for yes...UNLESS the young guns come through- Dalton Papali'i for example. Maybe being less star studded might be a good thing.

Crudes is back at the Chiefs so thats a big plus, and where he was best.

Crusaders will be VERY hard to beat, particularly now theyre on a roll and are also bringing many young ones through...Bridge, Reece, Ennor. Very hard culture to disrupt, particularly with the super energized Razor there.

[Guest]

Crusaders are so good that Gatland could get the ABs job without winning Super Rugby. That's pretty obvious. He just has to come consistently close to wininng, and show development in other areas. He has 3 opportunities to do it.

[mikey_dragon]

Oh yeah I forgot about Cruden coming home. Great coup. Crudes at 10 with Dmac at 15. They also have enough All Blacks up front to outmuscle teams.

Crusaders are one of the top teams every year, I expect that to be the case over the next 4 years too.

[Taylorman]

Crusaders are so good that Gatland could get the ABs job without winning Super Rugby. That's pretty obvious. He just has to come consistently close to winning, and show development in other areas. He has 3 opportunities to do it.

Yes he could, same reason others might get it over Razor now outside Foz, Rennie for example- much wider experience. Trouble we have is we have an excess of head coaches who arent likely to settle for assistant, which I think is why Tony Brown got hit on by a couple. He's highly respected AND is ok as assistant.

NZ rugby would benefit from a Foz, Joseph, Gats, razor, Rennie type set up but too many Chiefs (literally in Rennie and Gats :-) ) and not enough Indians, so theyre all scoping for assistants when if any of the top 10 hopefuls were prepared to assist we'd be better off.

[BamBam]

Not like the Welsh to expect others to pay for things they want to make use of

I bet you live in your mother's basement, don't you.

Resorting to personal abuse again eh, I'm sure the mods will be interested

Such a shame you didn't stick to your word and throw your toys out of the pram after the world cup

[Guest]

How can it be abuse if it's true?

You and mikey have a weird need to infantalise people with your insults. Always something to do with crying, or being a baby, or being girly...it's really weird.

[BamBam]

Don't know why you're so bothered by it really

Is it reminding you of your restraining order from all primary schools?

(Mods, it can't be abuse if it's true )

[Guest]

Yeah but that's not true. It's feasible you did live in your mother's basement.

Aaaanyway, that's the attention you wanted. Hope it sustains you for a few more days.

[LondonTiger]

Gents (do we have any Ladies?)

There have been a number of reports across many threads regarding derailing and aggressive "banter". On looking at threads there have been so many posts both reacting and starting antagonism. There will be some PMs to the affected people to remind them of what is deemed acceptable.

However please take this as a general reminder that this back and forth, aggressive dialogue is a waste of everyone's time. Rather than adding to it by calling people out on their behaviour report a post and give us time to address things

Thanks

[SecretFly]

Yes, we do have a Lady! I identify as a Lady today! If it's Wednesday and overcast, then I'm a lady.

[Taylorman]

Thanks LT,

btw...Miaow did start this thread as his way of 'keeping order', then set about to destroy it as well.

[Old Man]

I take solace in the fact that our rugby players don’t behave the way some people behave on 606v2.

They will tackle the toffee out of each other and then still respect each other after the match.

Perhaps it is time to take a leaf out of their book?

[Taylorman]

Might explain it Biltong, here we dont get to tackle the toffee out of each other when perhaps we'd sometimes like to

[Pie]

Taylorman you couldn't tackle a toffee if you tried

[Old Man]

Might explain it Biltong, here we dont get to tackle the toffee out of each other when perhaps we'd sometimes like to

Makes sense tman

[Collapse2005]

I take solace in the fact that our rugby players don’t behave the way some people behave on 606v2.

They will tackle the toffee out of each other and then still respect each other after the match.

Perhaps it is time to take a leaf out of their book?

Hmmm.

[Guest]

Thanks LT,

btw...Miaow did start this thread as his way of 'keeping order', then set about to destroy it as well.

I'm never the aggressor, only ever defending myself, as I said a few weeks ago.

I hope you like the thread - you're posting enough on it to suggest you do. Come on, eventually you'll come round to accepting you like it. Maybe you're just in that awkward sulking phase, like a kid on Xmas who doesn't get every single present they wanted. We can't deliver the Webb Ellis for you, but we can give you your own thread...!

[Taylorman]

'I bet you live in your mother's basement, don't you.'
'Maybe you're just in that awkward sulking phase'
'like a kid on Xmas who doesn't get every single present they wanted.'
'We can't deliver the Webb Ellis for you, but we can give you your own thread...!'
...

oh, followed by:
'I'm never the aggressor, only ever defending myself'

What has any of that to do with the thread YOU insisted on creating because others werent using the forum 'correctly'?

[Guest]

I fail to see what's wrong those quotes other than the troll jibe to Bam, which is well deserved tbh, and, even if not entirely true, sums up his attitude and online person pretty well. The sulking etc. seems to be bang on the money.

You can't try and claim the moral high ground after your behaviour of the last 2-3 years peaked with an absolute meltdown of nonsense during the RWC. Now you have a NZ thread, so there's no excuse to come writing diatribes on other threads where NZ aren't relevant. 'Thank you', I would have though would be a more appropriate response tbh.

Either way, let's not make this any more personal than it has to be. NZ is more than just you, and there was a good discussion going on before Bam and then yourself decided to come and derail it. There's a quite expicit warning from the mods. Leave it. You're the one who continued the personal attacks after the red pen. Learn self restraint. This is, again, just a response to you not listening to the mods - so I'm reinforcing my point. But I'm not going to do so again, out of respect of the mods' job.

[Taylorman]

Its ok, you had me at 'I fail to see...' The rest is garbage as usual.

...anyway, its reported as per LT's comments.

All good.

[BamBam]

Can someone give miaow a forum captain badge, he's desperate for another position of responsibility after his chief pencil sharpener job was taken away following the restraining order being put in place

[Taylorman]

All Whites 1 nil up over Ireland...oops, right country, wrong sport

[SecretFly]

All Whites 1 nil up over Ireland...oops, right country, wrong sport

Two tries to one now for us, which is handy coz we don't know what a net is for.

[Galted]

All Whites 1 nil up over Ireland...oops, right country, wrong sport

Two tries to one now for us, which is handy coz we don't know what a net is for.

Typical boring Ireland, all the scoring from the boot.

[Taylorman]

All Whites 1 nil up over Ireland...oops, right country, wrong sport

Two tries to one now for us, which is handy coz we don't know what a net is for.

Aw, 1-2 with 20 to go...no good.

[Guest]

Coming soon! Shearing and sheepdog trials where we can look forward to commentary to see just how the Kiwis get on against their Uk and Ireland competitors...stay tuned to 606v2 to follow all the provincial action...

[Taylorman]

oh. better go..DH is back...

[Guest]

oh. better go..DH is back...

"DH"?

If Mumsnet has taught me anything - and, boy, it really, really has - it's that 'DH' means...Dear Husband...?

[Galted]

oh. better go..DH is back...

"DH"?

If Mumsnet has taught me anything - and, boy, it really, really has - it's that 'DH' means...Dear Husband...?

I've always assumed it's 'darling husband'. Might have to reread all the posts I've read on there.

[SecretFly]

Dirty Hoor is what it means in Ireland

[Guest]

oh. better go..DH is back...

"DH"?

If Mumsnet has taught me anything - and, boy, it really, really has - it's that 'DH' means...Dear Husband...?

I've always assumed it's 'darling husband'.  Might have to reread all the posts I've read on there.

It seems I still have much to learn about mumsnet. You are correct...

[Galted]

oh. better go..DH is back...

"DH"?

If Mumsnet has taught me anything - and, boy, it really, really has - it's that 'DH' means...Dear Husband...?

I've always assumed it's 'darling husband'.  Might have to reread all the posts I've read on there.

It seems I still have much to learn about mumsnet. You are correct...

I prefer Secret's 'Dirty Hoor' version, that's how I'll read it in future.

[Guest]

"You have been banned from Mumsnet."

p.s. there's an amazing twitter account called 'Musnet Madness'. Don't recommend following if you do use twitter as it is likely to bring out the sexist cynic in just about any man, but it's worth a skim once in a while.

[Galted]

Cheers, looks like a worthwhile follow. I don't drink and tweet so should be safe.

[Taylorman]

Cheers, looks like a worthwhile follow.  I don't drink and tweet so should be safe.

Meds and posting don’t go together either but doesn’t stop some people creating pointless articles, one after the other huh? Oh well.

[Guest]

Cheers, looks like a worthwhile follow.  I don't drink and tweet so should be safe.

Meds and posting don’t go together either but doesn’t stop some people creating pointless articles, one after the other huh? Oh well.

WTF is this sheet? Bad day? Something happen relating to your medication? Where is this all coming from...

[mikey_dragon]

How legit a source is Scott Stevenson? He says the next AB coach is between Scott Robertson, Jamie Joseph, and Ian Foster.

[Taylorman]

How legit a source is Scott Stevenson? He says the next AB coach is between Scott Robertson, Jamie Joseph, and Ian Foster.

Yeah I’d say that’s about right. Scotty knows his rugby. Robertson’s an interesting one. Has known nothing but success and is by far the most energetic, positive coach, possibly the world over. Took a Crusaders side that despite having the best players in their history couldn’t win it since 2008 under Blackadder, won three straight, after McCaw, Thorn and others left.

For me it’s about continuity...Foster...and the new...Joseph, and Robertson. Joseph has coached sides to over achieve...Highlanders should not have won their away final versus the best Hurricanes side in years, and now Japan, reaching even bigger heights than when Jones was there.

Robertson’s the opposite, only knows the best sides. Takes the best, and wins with them. That may appeal over Joseph. Won 2015 under 20s worlds, though didn’t qualify in 2016, a couple of mitre 10s then the Saders. So it’s a toss up, continuity, overachiever, or straight out winner.

[Guest]

JJ was always an outside shot, but now it's down to 2 men.

50:50 call. The Kiwis clearly want Robertson but good stewardship might see the logic in 'using' Foster for a few years then having Robertson compete with Gatland and whoever else in 4 years' time. The flipside to that is - is there a glass ceiling in NZ, as many coaches say. What more does Robertson have to do (probably coach overseas).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50457588

Tough one.

[Taylorman]

Coaching overseas is one thing, handling losses is another. How the ABs come back after a loss has been one of their greatest assets. Both require extensive experience. Joseph is the more rounded option but how does ‘overseas’ experience rate when it’s Japan playing mainly second tier sides, with a couple of World Cup upsets to boot. Foster has been in the middle of AB rugby for years in terms of playing overseas sides, but has no ‘perspective’ of coaching them.

Personally I think all that’s overated and would go with Robertson. I mean sides like England, Wales and Ireland are picking coaches that aren’t even from the sides they’re coaching so are fine with a ‘manufactured’ loyalty. We’re a long way off having to resort to that yet.

[mikey_dragon]

Robertson would be a good No.2 guy, I don’t think he is the best candidate for the top job. He would do alright though, anyone could with that squad.

[Taylorman]

Josephs out now, sticking with japan. Razor and Foz, know which I'd go for. Foz would need to agree to assistant again. Or perhaps take the Crusaders.
Might be someones grandmother in the end after all.

[Gooseberry]

Dont worry Taylorman Donald Trump might be available soon and he knows all about winning

[Taylorman]

True, and referees will be the new CNN. Fake penalties, fake reds. He’d need to improve his breakdancing though, and no more interviews in front of loud choppers!

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