If the Lions were picked today...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/50411698

Apparently Gatland is picking his team around Jamie George, Maro Itoje, Tom Curry, Manu Tuilagi, an Anthony Watson.

Welsh hat well and truly gone...

He also name checked AWJ, Wainwright and Adams (plus Hogg & Furlong)

WC hangover gone and now for the Heineken Cup.
I doubt AWJ can stay to that level for another 2 years.
I fully expect James Ryan & Itoje to develop to the extent that they both at least make the 23. Wales were a lot closer to beating SA than England. For some reason if you can match the English pack you can beat them and SA quite often match their pack for size and power.
Can Sexton & Farrell reach their highest levels as that could be a viable 10/12 again. Can Carbury improve & stay injury free to challenge & move past Sexton. Can Jordan Lamour take the 15 jersey from Kearney but Hogg is maybe the current 15 for the Lions. I'd go nowhere Daly for the 15 jersey.
Set-piece has to be very strong. Just ask Phil Vickery. But 2 years our and there is definitely enough potential & young guys to go down and push SA hard. If we can get a test to the levels of the 2nd one in 2009 I'll be a happy man.

Currently no Ireland player would be in the reckoning for Lions selection.
No doubt when the time comes, the money grabbers organisers will have to exercise some token picks to justify using the 'British and Irish' moniker - step up James Ryan and Jordan Larmour to boost the shirt and ticket sales.

Going to put my neck on the line and pick; 4. Jake Ball, 5. James Ryan, 6. Maro Itoje - definitely matching the boks for size and power in that area.

Is this really a 'great' South African team, or was it just a poor display by an England team that amongst other failings couldn't scrummage?

And if you ask Phil Vickery he will say that the referee Bryce Lawrence had a terrible game and let The Beast get away with cheating in the scrum.

I would be disappointed if a Gatland coached Lions don't beat South Africa - I would take a 2v1 series win but want a 3v0 Lions series win.

Given how the Beast beasted Vickery, he would say that wouldn't he?

The Great Aukster wrote:Given how the Beast beasted Vickery, he would say that wouldn't he?

Yes he would, but the referee 'admitted to him that he might have made some mistakes'.

But let's be honest this 2019 SA team was well beaten by New Zealand in the group stages, struggled to put away a pretty limited Japan team and held on to beat a plucky Welsh team decimated by injury

I'm sure every prop alive that gives away a penalty (or 6), in a game will say that their opposing prop was doing something to gain an unfair advantage & the ref had a shocker. For Vickery see Dan Cole only 10 years later. Easy to blame a ref for losing a game but that 2nd test was an unbelievable advertisement for rugby and over the 80 minutes the only difference was an over zealous ROG & a pretty nervy penalty to win the game.
I'm sure T. Furlong might have a say in that Lions selection. Of course if you can name any player in the northern hemisphere currently playing that has a better record against the AB's I'll gladly take that back! 3 wins 1 draw and 2 losses. Lamour needs a lot more time at 15 to even be mentioned in a Lions 15 shirt and as for Ryan he still has 2 years to grow bigger,

Concussed rog wasn't it? Was that the tour with Burger side stepping a red card?

Yes ROG was never going to be happy with a draw. His plan was a garryowen out of his dead ball line/or 22, out-jump Steyn, gather the ball & outpace Habana. The bandage was wrapped too tight and obviously made him very optimistic!
Wasn't Burger just saying hi to Fitzgerald?
In any case Burger, Smith & Spies were a half decent back row so no complaints there.
Furlong has won in NZ/SA & Aus so that's another feather in his cap. I'm sure Sinclair will have a say but are there any other TH's that could push those 2, (please don't say Cole)

Ninjarugby wrote:WC hangover gone and now for the Heineken Cup.
I doubt AWJ can stay to that level for another 2 years.
I fully expect James Ryan & Itoje to develop to the extent that they both at least make the 23. Wales were a lot closer to beating  SA than England. For some reason if you can match the English pack you can beat them and SA quite often match their pack for size and power.
Can Sexton & Farrell reach their highest levels as that could be a viable 10/12 again. Can Carbury improve & stay injury free to challenge & move past Sexton. Can Jordan Lamour take the 15 jersey from Kearney but Hogg is maybe the current 15 for the Lions. I'd go nowhere Daly for the 15 jersey.
Set-piece has to be very strong. Just ask Phil Vickery. But 2 years our and there is definitely enough potential & young guys to go down and push SA hard. If we can get a test to the levels of the 2nd one in 2009 I'll be a happy man.

Yes Wales did play better vs SA - but then SA picked up their game no end in the final and England - well they didn't.

Mako
George
Furlong
Itoje
AWJ
Faletau
Billy V
Curry
Davies
Farrell
Adams
Manu
J Davies
Watson
Hogg

Finishers
Genge
Brown
Sinckler
Ryan
Wainwright
Murray
Russell
Daly

Perhaps of more interest will be how in touch with the NH Gatland will be. Will the Lions board regret effectively going for Gatland come what may when he's miss this season by being over in NH. Also, who joins him? Has Howley burnt himself? Shaun Edwards seems a strong possibility...but will the French let go of him for B&I? Seems dubious. Will he bring over his Kiwi assistant coaches from the Chiefs - or different Kiwi ACs - in a bid to give them some NH exposure prior to the big, black gig?

To my mind I'm surprised about Jamie George. Gatland's never really liked Ken Owens - picked Scott Baldwin over him 4 years ago, which is crazy - and I feel a lot of that is due to raw bulk. For me, though Ken is now just starting to wind down his career now and will be an outside shot at the Lions, he's less of an outside shot than AWJ, and he's the best hooker in Britain and Ireland. Jamie George...hmmmm. I'm not massively convinced. Good, no doubt, but one of the first names on Gatland's team sheets? That is interesting, particularly from a former hooker. And it's interesting that Gatland picks 5 English players before tacking on the Celts out of political correctness - the only Scot being Hogg, and delivered with a laugh. Can we take it at face value, or can we also see it as a swipe at Eddie Jones: "your boys were world class and you still didn't win it..."?

Based on the actual rugby world cup, and based on what Gatland likes, this is the 23 I think he'd go for

1. Mako
2. George
3. Furlong
4. Lawes
5. Itoje.
6. Navidi
7. Curry
8. Vunipola (Faletau if fit)

9. Tomos Williams
10. Farrell (Anscombe if fit)
11. Stockdale/Cokanasiga
12. Tuilagi
13. JD2
14. Watson
15. Liam Williams

16. Ken??
17. Ellis Genge/Kilcoyne
18. Sinckler
19. AWJ
20. ...pfffttt...no idea...Underhill? Navidi? Wainwright? Ritchie? Stander? POM? Ruddock? Wilson? Maybe Navidi or Underhill tbh...
21. Youngs
22. Ford
23. Hogg

I can't see Gatland picking anything but a heavily English team based on this RWC. Particularly as he's since come out and talked about England basically having much better players than Wales, in particular. You imagine he wasn't saying - or thinking - that in 2013...

LondonTiger wrote:He also name checked AWJ, Wainwright and Adams (plus Hogg & Furlong)

Hogg 'the token Scot'

Youngs!!!!!!

No thanks, unless we have some 8ft wingers to catch his passes.

The Great Aukster wrote:Currently no Ireland player would be in the reckoning for Lions selection.
No doubt when the time comes, the money grabbers organisers will have to exercise some token picks to justify using the 'British and Irish' moniker - step up James Ryan and Jordan Larmour to boost the shirt and ticket sales.

Ah jeepers of course they would. James Ryan is almost a certainty. There will be others.

Youngs looked the second best British and Irish 9 in the RWC, loose passes or not. Gareth Davies might push him but in many ways he isn't a Gatland scrum half. Nor is Tomos Williams but his quality is clear and he'd deserve the shirt. Far too much hero-villain treatment for players like Youngs. He was apparently world class in Oz in 2016 and now he's useless? Yeah, na...neither's correct, he's just a generally very good 9 and one of the best options the Lions have.

I do not understand how a player like Faletau can be chosen for the Lions, when he is/as been out of action for months.

Who should be the 9??? is a big question. Young's as been the top 9 for a wile with Gareth Davies a very close 2nd imo.

I truly believe it is too early to even think a bout a Lions tour at this moment.

Probably because he's the best 8 in the world, maj.

miaow wrote:Probably because he's the best 8 in the world, maj.

And of cause you are not Biased in any way are you?

majesticimperialman wrote:I do not understand how a player like Faletau can be chosen for the Lions, when he is/as been out of action for months.

Who should be the 9??? is a big question. Young's as been the top 9 for a wile with Gareth Davies a very close 2nd imo.

I truly believe it is too early to even think a bout a Lions tour at this moment.

So why bellyache, when people discuss Faletau for 2 years time?

TightHEAD wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:He also name checked AWJ, Wainwright and Adams (plus Hogg & Furlong)

Hogg 'the token Scot'

No, hes got the watson on the wing

2 years is a very long time in rugby.

You cant really guess who is going to be in form in 2 years time, though gatland, form and lions never really went together.

majesticimperialman wrote:

miaow wrote:Probably because he's the best 8 in the world, maj.

And of cause you are not Biased in any way are you?

No. I agree.

Lessons must be learned from the world cup final and the biggest one is don't have Mako Vunipola scrummaging against South Africa, I'd rather go with Genge on the off chance that he's having a good day.

Good point. Chance for the Irish to lay a marker down there, they seem to be the only country with good scrummaging loose heads.

Bar marler and Genge for england.

I think the final squad will have a lot of new faces in it compared with 2013/2017 Tours. I also think it'll be the most even spread of home nations players in decades and will make for a really special tour of SA.

bsando wrote:I think the final squad will have a lot of new faces in it compared with 2013/2017 Tours. I also think it'll be the most even spread of home nations players in decades and will make for a really special tour of SA.

Gats will pick whatever he thinks will win the series. He will be desperate to go out on a high from the Lions. In large part due to the congested nature of the tour and limited chances to form new partnerships, I suspect that the Test team at least will be dominated by a single country with additional stardust from the others. Anyone able to secure a GS in 2021 will have put themselves right at the front of the queue.

Much will also depend on the assistant coaches selected as they will be the guys who are seeing the players week in week out. We could see more calls similar to Rowntree pushing for Corbs in 2013.

If the Lions were picked today, common sense would say it will be dominated with English players closely followed by Welsh players being the next biggest representation, with a few Irish and the odd Scottish player.

But that's if it were to be picked today, there is a whole two years for that to change.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bar marler and Genge for england.

Marler's retiring for sure and therefore I discounted him, otherwise he's the obvious choice. Yet to really see Genge tested. Not convinced he has the set piece game. Same for Sinckler.

miaow wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bar marler and Genge for england.

Marler's retiring for sure and therefore I discounted him, otherwise he's the obvious choice. Yet to really see Genge tested. Not convinced he has the set piece game. Same for Sinckler.

Is he? It would be no surprise if he did but I have not seen anything official

As for the make up, I think the 2021 Lions will be English heavy. Very. Literally so. It's not just their ability and relative success in Japan, it's their size. They are there or thereabouts the biggest pack in the world - only SA tip them (jeez, remember those stupid arguments about the SA pack apparently being small, and how the official stats were accurate...!?!?). You need size and power and that's what England have where only Ireland sort of come close. Wales and Scotland just don't.

Based on the RWC and picking the team right now, I probably wouldn't have a single Scottish player in the 23. Hogg's lost some sparkle and Daly is more versatile from the bench. Liam Williams clearly the best 15 but not too much competition behind him. Russell? Nope, yet to see him produce on the top table. One off games doesn't mitigate inconsistency. Hamish Watson? Probably not above the other 7 options. Maybe a place for Brown or McInally...maybe. I like Seymour and Maitland as well but not sure they'd get in ahead of other wingers, obviously.

Can anyone really argue otherwise? Is there a Scot who clearly should be in the 23 in the way that, say, Farrell probably 'should' be in the 23, it's just a case of whether he plays 10, 12, or 22.

lostinwales wrote:

miaow wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bar marler and Genge for england.

Marler's retiring for sure and therefore I discounted him, otherwise he's the obvious choice. Yet to really see Genge tested. Not convinced he has the set piece game. Same for Sinckler.

Is he? It would be no surprise if he did but I have not seen anything official

Might have jumped the gun on that. But yeah. I've heard he's done with England after this season - possible to feature in the 6Ns but that will be that. Which would be consistent with where he was before Japan. In this hypothetical scenario - as I've said for years - I think he's one of the best props in the world and would have him in the #1 shirt.

Ritchie should have a shot. There is no shortage of decent back rows but he isn't far off

The problem is there is no shortage though. You say he should have a shot - he could easily be 3rd or 4th reserve for his position, which basically means not going to come close.

If Darcy Graham keeps developing then he might be a genuine contender as no one can really do what he does in the NH. Nowell comes closest, but not really. Graham's more like Shane Williams I think. More like Kolbe. If Gatland wants that 'flair winger', Graham could get in the squad - but, again, I can't see him being picked over Watson, and possibly North, Adams, May, Stockdale, Cokanasiga...and that's before considering Seymour.

Ritchie is a temperamental sod who loves a physical game so could be pretty useful in SA.

miaow wrote:The problem is there is no shortage though. You say he should have a shot - he could easily be 3rd or 4th reserve for his position, which basically means not going to come close.

If Darcy Graham keeps developing then he might be a genuine contender as no one can really do what he does in the NH. Nowell comes closest, but not really. Graham's more like Shane Williams I think. More like Kolbe. If Gatland wants that 'flair winger', Graham could get in the squad - but, again, I can't see him being picked over Watson, and possibly North, Adams, May, Stockdale, Cokanasiga...and that's before considering Seymour.

There are 2 things to consider.
1) Is the player good enough?
2) How well would he fit in with the wider squad

What I am trying to say that in the right team some unexpected players might outshine their opposite numbers, in the same way that some players with big reputations will fail in the wrong setting. Ritchie might fly for the Lions.

Scotland has suffered because the overall squad has been (relatively) poor compared to other home nations, so that its hard for individuals to stand out which in turn has deprived some of their players getting a chance with the Lions. ( You could say the opposite has worked for Wales - what with Gatland - and arguably for England).

I always find these weird, no point picking on form or fitness because who knows who'll be fit and on form in two years time. If I was picking on who I think will be the best players around then and the best placed to beat South Africa I'd go with:

1. Vunipola
2. George
3. Furlong
4. Ryan
5. Itoje
6. Faletau
7. Watson
8. Vunipola
9. Davies
10. Russell
11. Watson
12. Farrell
13. Tuilagi
14. May
15. Williams

16. Healy
17. Owens
18. Sinckler
19. Jones
20. Curry
21. Murray
22. Davies
23. Hogg

lostinwales wrote:

miaow wrote:The problem is there is no shortage though. You say he should have a shot - he could easily be 3rd or 4th reserve for his position, which basically means not going to come close.

If Darcy Graham keeps developing then he might be a genuine contender as no one can really do what he does in the NH. Nowell comes closest, but not really. Graham's more like Shane Williams I think. More like Kolbe. If Gatland wants that 'flair winger', Graham could get in the squad - but, again, I can't see him being picked over Watson, and possibly North, Adams, May, Stockdale, Cokanasiga...and that's before considering Seymour.

There are 2 things to consider.
1) Is the player good enough?
2) How well would he fit in with the wider squad

What I am trying to say that in the right team some unexpected players might outshine their opposite numbers, in the same way that some players with big reputations will fail in the wrong setting. Ritchie might fly for the Lions.

Scotland has suffered because the overall squad has been (relatively) poor compared to other home nations, so that its hard for individuals to stand out which in turn has deprived some of their players getting a chance with the Lions.  ( You could say the opposite has worked for Wales - what with Gatland - and arguably for England).

Yep, I agree. Ritchie looks good. But my point was 'is there any Scot who demands a place in the 23'. No, there isn't. You can't say the same for the other 3 nations.

Also, am I the only one who's reticent to heap praise on James Ryan just yet? There's a bit of the 'case of Itojes' going on. He does look good...but he looks NH-good. He had a poor RWC and when I tried to watch him specifically, didn't particularly stand out. There would be several locks ahead of him atm.

You couldn't even tell where tuilagi played so probably.

Lol, 7.5.

Indeed a lot of people were laughing at that point from you.

Classic bully tactic. "Everyone hates you" etc. Speaking for the collective. Fortunately I'm not a child, 7.5, but seems your mindset and your nastiness is still stuck in that immature state.

Contribute something, like you said. This is borderline bullying.

How many times do we have to ask you two to ignore each other?

Make the ignore function work rdw.